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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#4851 tormave

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:37

From Autosport plus:

Average driver ratings 2010
...
5 Nico Rosberg 7.75
...
23 Michael Schuamcher 5.66
...

Ouch! This must hurt even more:

there are some individuals in senior positions within the team who are frustrated at not knowing whether the Merc is a mediocre midfielder that Rosberg is extracting the best out of, or whether there is more to come.



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#4852 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:39

Nonsense. Some drivers are better than others - it's quite simple.


No it is not as simple as you say here. These two drivers are better because they have the results which are largely dependent on the cars that they drove. Till now they are better what the future will bring us we do not know. There is a slight possibility that Rosbeg will also win his two WDC and suddenly he will become one of the best drivers on the grid.



#4853 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:00

.....but I do not believe for one moment that Schumacher will only ever be a list of the largest numbers.


He will be remembered as a list of the largest numbers indeed, the largest numbers of professional fouls included.  ;)


#4854 as65p

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:02

:) Of course. Looking how many mistakes did Alonso and Lewis this year,


I never thought it would come to this, but huh? What "many" mistakes did Hamilton make this year? At a stretch, one could count his poor Adelaide qualy, but that's about it, I think (and easily balanced against Rosbergs off in Malaysia, handing Button the lead).

#4855 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:04

Great champions need great car and great team around them. And yes, what Nico achieve is not exceptional for me. Because with great car even not great champions ,do remarkably well. See RBR guys.


Which is exactly the point of a discussion earlier in this thread: when having this great car and great team around him, Schumacher was great himself.
But, as you say, "because with great car even not great champions do remarkably well", there is a possibility that Schumacher was never that great himself to begin with...


#4856 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:05

No it is not as simple as you say here. These two drivers are better because they have the results which are largely dependent on the cars that they drove. Till now they are better what the future will bring us we do not know. There is a slight possibility that Rosbeg will also win his two WDC and suddenly he will become one of the best drivers on the grid.


I'm not denying that there is a possibility of Rosberg getting a championship winning car and taking a title, but your assertion that 'suddenly he will become one of teh best drivers on teh gird' because of it is rather odd. We all know that a great deal of a drivers success comes from the machinery he is given, but is anyone seriously suggesting that jenson Button 'suddenly' became one of the best last year, or Webber - likewise - this?

It follows that drivers get top drives because they are considered worthy by the teams concerned; despite the belief of many that Hamilton, for instance, was always destined for an F1 drive with McLaren he wouldn't have got one if he'd been crap in the lower formulae. Alonso was a hot property on the lowere rungs of the ladder, too, and then there's michael hiself who was seen to be good enough to be fought over for a contract after one race in which he completed a few yards!

There are, no matter how you dress it up, drivers who are better than others; always have been, and always will be.

#4857 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:15

:) Of course. Looking how many mistakes did Alonso and Lewis this year, for me Nico with his consistence , qualy speed he could lead WDC now.


How has this all of a sudden become a Rosberg - Alonso - Hamilton thread, with Nico coming out on top of the two best drivers in F1 today?
Another veiled attempt to paint Michael in a better light?  ;)


#4858 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:22

But, as you say, "because with great car even not great champions do remarkably well", there is a possibility that Schumacher was never that great himself to begin with...

More like Hill, Button. We speak about Nico ,because the poor guy don't have his own thread. But you can start one for him.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 12:25.


#4859 flyer121

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:42

Which is exactly the point of a discussion earlier in this thread: when having this great car and great team around him, Schumacher was great himself.
But, as you say, "because with great car even not great champions do remarkably well", there is a possibility that Schumacher was never that great himself to begin with...



There lies the problem ...

His fans do not want that to figure in the debate at all .. on any level !

But there you go.

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#4860 flyer121

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:44

More like Hill, Button. We speak about Nico ,because the poor guy don't have his own thread. But you can start one for him.


So having your own thread counts as a measure of greatness!

For me it counts as a measure of being involved in the biggest and most number of controversies.. And of the dubious distinction of having the most rabid fans.

#4861 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:46

That's because it's rubbish. There's no doubt that he's great, the question is what made him that way. If his one and only great skill was to galvanise a team around him and make him their focus to the exclusion of all others, that is still noteworthy and maybe a technique the younger generation should learn. Even taking away half of his championships makes him one of the best ever.

The difficulty is that those who knew and know him best will all tell you he is amazing on the circuit too. You can't be a bit shit and make a four-pitstop strategy work.

#4862 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:50

And of the dubious distinction of having the most rabid fans.

and the blindest haters ;)

#4863 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:54

I am just enjoying 1998 Hungary: Race - Ch9 ITV. What were you saying? If someone doubt Michael I can recommend him 91 race he wouldn't want to miss. In this race I see things everyone here are accusing him. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 12:56.


#4864 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:56

I'm not denying that there is a possibility of Rosberg getting a championship winning car and taking a title, but your assertion that 'suddenly he will become one of teh best drivers on teh gird' because of it is rather odd. We all know that a great deal of a drivers success comes from the machinery he is given, but is anyone seriously suggesting that jenson Button 'suddenly' became one of the best last year, or Webber - likewise - this?


First of all Button does not have 2 WDC and Webber is not in the group of WDC winners at all. Were did I said that there are no difference between the drivers in F1 but you have said that Rosberg would be easily beaten by Alonso and Hamilton and I argue against it.

#4865 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 13:18

First of all Button does not have 2 WDC and Webber is not in the group of WDC winners at all.


I'm well aware of that.

Were did I said that there are no difference between the drivers in F1


You didn't, and I never said you did. What you did say was that the days when drivers beat their team mates easily are gone, and I disagree. Some drivers are better than others.

but you have said that Rosberg would be easily beaten by Alonso and Hamilton and I argue against it.


You're entitled to argue about it; I said I think Rosberg would be beaten by Alonso or Hamilton - I didn't say 'easily' at all as it may well be a great battle - because I think those two are better drivers.



#4866 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 13:53

Aaaah, of course - you mean BRITISH journo's! I forgot it was only BRITISH journo's who dare to write anything denigrating about your hero! Of course, the German journo's are all banging on about how good he is, aren't they, despite him being comprehensively trounced by a countryman with less than half his experience?

A blog - by its very nature - is the opinion of the writer; blogs don't tend to rely on the facts, they offer a personal insight and attitude. If, of course, you think that nobody can possibly say anything nasty about Michael Schumacher because he has won seven world titles and 91 GP's then that's fair enough - I am sure there will be blogs out there that suit your needs. If not, start one yourself - it's free! Me, as an interested reader, I can clearly see that Michael coming back and looking, frequently, awful is something that has to be reported. I would rather read 'Michael was beaten by Rosberg again' etc than 'Michael Schumacher, seven times world champion and 91 race winner, put in a tremendous performance from 14th on the grid and was absolutely the class of the field to finish 9th' wouldn't you?

Has it crossed your mind that not everyone worships him the way you do?


I never said I want everyone to worship Shumi. Im just saying the lack of respect and denigrating comments made by those blogs are not doing him any justice. Its also not fair, as there are lots of other drivers scoring just as badly vs teammates who are not slammed with ridiculous comments like: please, retire! Heikki vs lewis for instance. Kubica vs Petrov. Liuzzi vs Alguersuari. These bloghjournos are only 'offering their insights' on Shumi because it sells.

1. Michael isnt doing that badly

2. Michael should be entitled to some respect.

If you look to the race results, i only see 2 races where Michael really underperformed; Silverstone and China. The other races he got wrong strategies, got bad luck or finished real close to Rosberg.

#4867 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:00

I never said I want everyone to worship Shumi. Im just saying the lack of respect and denigrating comments made by those blogs are not doing him any justice. Its also not fair, as there are lots of other drivers scoring just as badly vs teammates who are not slammed with ridiculous comments like: please, retire! Heikki vs lewis for instance. Kubica vs Petrov. Liuzzi vs Alguersuari. These bloghjournos are only 'offering their insights' on Shumi because it sells.


I doubt any of those with blogs are selling anything, but if they are then you are quite right. Remember, a blog is not a magazine, is usually free to subscribe to and is generally opinion based.

1. Michael isnt doing that badly


But he isn't doing that well, either; with respect, you're a writer on f1 and you have to write about everyone - what are you currently going to write about Michael? Are you going to ignore the aspects of his season that have hit the headlines just because you don't think it's 'fair'?

2. Michael should be entitled to some respect.


Why? Great, he's a 91 race winner and seven times world champion, and for that I respect him, but why would I - as a writer on the sport - feel 'aah, let's give the old guy some respect and not offer the opinion that I think he's performing poorly'? Michael is no more 'entitled to some respect' than you or I.

If you look to the race results, i only see 2 races where Michael really underperformed; Silverstone and China. The other races he got wrong strategies, got bad luck or finished real close to Rosberg.


You are, as it is, entitled to your opinion and if it is as above then fair play to you. As someone who has watched Michael's career and marvelled on many occasions at his ability I was expecting rather more than I have seen this year. I'm far from alone in that respect, and I believe a lot of his fans who are now saying but he's not doing that badly' are kidding themselves and also expected more. For that reason, I think he's underperforming quite clearly. Be honest - did you actually expect Nico Rosberg to bat him just about everywhere? I didn't.

#4868 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:07

Rosberg made some fairly stupid mistakes last season too. But since I admire him im not too suprised how well he does and how much he improved, or how flat shumi performs. If there were a few more testsesions im not so sure if it would still be so one-sided. Just look how Fisi and Badoer absolutly drowned vs Kimi because they couldnt test a difficult Ferrari car.

And opinions ah :) If you read the Mclaren thread, and count how many times the mood swung from one side to the other i think the opinion on shumi isnt so bad ;)

The thing im more suprised about, is how the former pace setting and current world constructorschampions Brawn GP team (ok Mercedes) could get their calculations so wrong they are not a factor at all in the championship.

Edited by JackTorrance, 20 August 2010 - 14:09.


#4869 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:10

Rosberg made some fairly stupid mistakes last season too. But since I admire him im not too suprised how well he does and how much he improved, or how flat shumi performs. If there where a few more testsesions im not so sure if it would still be so one-sided.


Last season was last season; Rosberg's made very few mistakes this season. I'm not sure why more test sessions would help - they've both had the same in this car.

And opinions ah :) If you read the Mclaren thread, and count how many times the mood swung from one side to the other i think the opinion on shumi isnt so bad ;)


Ok.

The thing im more suprised about, is how the former pace setting and current world constructorschampions Brawn GP team (ok Mercedes) could get their calculations so wrong they are not a factor at all in the championship.


I don't think that's a surprise at all; others have got things right, and done a better job. It happens to all teams at some point.


#4870 Kovalonso

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:16

I never said I want everyone to worship Shumi. Im just saying the lack of respect and denigrating comments made by those blogs are not doing him any justice. Its also not fair, as there are lots of other drivers scoring just as badly vs teammates who are not slammed with ridiculous comments like: please, retire! Heikki vs lewis for instance. Kubica vs Petrov. Liuzzi vs Alguersuari. These bloghjournos are only 'offering their insights' on Shumi because it sells.

1. Michael isnt doing that badly

2. Michael should be entitled to some respect.

If you look to the race results, i only see 2 races where Michael really underperformed; Silverstone and China. The other races he got wrong strategies, got bad luck or finished real close to Rosberg.

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.
B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.
C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].

#4871 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:19

He also beat him at Turkey

#4872 Johnrambo

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:19

I am just enjoying 1998 Hungary: Race - Ch9 ITV. What were you saying? If someone doubt Michael I can recommend him 91 race he wouldn't want to miss. In this race I see things everyone here are accusing him. :rotfl:


And so what? He is useless now. That is what really matters.

#4873 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:20

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.

a quote?

B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.

quote again?

C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

true, ms can't design a mercedes.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

clearly, he's 7 times wdc with more races won than other even looked at tv

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].

barcelona, turkey?

#4874 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:21

And so what? He is useless now. That is what really matters.

glad we settled that.
anything else to add on this topic?

#4875 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:30

First of all Button does not have 2 WDC and Webber is not in the group of WDC winners at all. Were did I said that there are no difference between the drivers in F1 but you have said that Rosberg would be easily beaten by Alonso and Hamilton and I argue against it.

Did you already forgot what you type look at your post 12.41 last sentence I will copy the whole conversation here.

QUOTE (ivand911 @ Aug 20 2010, 11:30)
And where this led him: 5th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. 9th remind me something.


yes, but you are of the opinion that even great drivers need great cars; we both know that the Renault was no great car, yet Alonso did extract the maximum possible from it.


QUOTE
I wanted to check them both against Nico ,not against Michael. This will be fear thing to do , all of them driving when tyres changed. They all know them well. Just MGP car will provide fun part.


Interesting; what do you think the outcome would be? I think both Alonso and Hamilton would easily beat Rosberg.


#4876 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:34

Did you already forgot what you type look at your post 12.41 last sentence I will copy the whole conversation here.


I did already forget what I typed! You're right, I did say they would easily beat Rosberg. I perhaps was being a bit unfair; while i'm pretty sure they would beat him, I'm in no doubt he'd put up a fight.

#4877 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 15:16

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.
B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.
C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].


A> Max Mosley admitted only to favouring Ferrari against what he described as the British mafia. That's not the same as 'helped' though of course he may have done.
B> Nico is on record to say that he has the same car requirements as Schumacher. A development direction in Schumachers direction will benefit Nico.
C> NR/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were not overtaken by Rubens/Williams/Cosworth in the car development race.

The Monaco incident was controversial enough that it would be unreasonable to blame it on Schumacher. Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to. I'd still class that as a Schumacher win over Rosberg.

#4878 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:15

For a slow driver ,there is a lot of discussion on this thread. There is only one way to see if Michael is getting slower. Give him the car he drove before with the same tyres on the same track and just check the lap times. If they are the same(+- 0,150- 0,200) , which I think they will be then he is not going slower. It is easy, but will never happen. Everything else is BS. Michael started well in winter test matching Nico. Or maybe just this tracks wasn't tyre oriented. But, in some moment he understand that with this car he don't have hope of even one win. Maybe he lost some desire, they started to make stupid mistakes, to test the car and try same very aggressive tactics. Nico felt well because for him this car was the best he ever drove, he was happy until some races. For Michael was the worst car, he rejected it from the start. Because the car can't be changed, the way car work with the tyres also can't be changed and I think Michael just turn his focus to next year car. I mean he focus on this not to repeat with next year car what they have now. For the races from now on, will important where all midfield teams will stop development, who stop at higher level will have advantage. They all will go back comparing with the teams who will fight for championships.

#4879 man

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:20

For a slow driver ,there is a lot of discussion on this thread. There is only one way to see if Michael is getting slower. Give him the car he drove before with the same tyres on the same track and just check the lap times. If they are the same(+- 0,150- 0,200) , which I think they will be then he is not going slower. It is easy, but will never happen. Everything else is BS. Michael started well in winter test matching Nico. Or maybe just this tracks wasn't tyre oriented. But, in some moment he understand that with this car he don't have hope of even one win. Maybe he lost some desire, they started to make stupid mistakes, to test the car and try same very aggressive tactics. Nico felt well because for him this car was the best he ever drove, he was happy until some races. For Michael was the worst car, he rejected it from the start. Because the car can't be changed, the way car work with the tyres also can't be changed and I think Michael just turn his focus to next year car. I mean he focus on this not to repeat with next year car what they have now. For the races from now on, will important where all midfield teams will stop development, who stop at higher level will have advantage. They all will go back comparing with the teams who will fight for championships.


I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.

Edited by man, 20 August 2010 - 16:21.


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#4880 Sakae

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:30

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


Could you cite explanatory examples of special treatments that he has received in the past and aided him in winning the races, and that could be available to him today, but are not? Do not forget rules had changed in past a few years, thus if he was ahead in points, and T-car was needed, he would get it most of times. He cannot get it today because mainly there are no more T-cars available, so that would be a bad example.

His role seems to change this year (and recently) to support Nico R., than anything else anyway, because he is behind in points.

#4881 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:30

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.

I don't expect any real speed from Michael with this car . He have enough time to fight with it. But we don't have way to check this, only if he try another car and set some better time. I am sure he can set better lap time with RBR,McLaren or Ferrari. Especially with Ferrari. :) How better nobody knows, but much better than MGP times. Maybe to have good car is preferential treatment as you say. Then a lot of drivers have such.


#4882 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:14

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


That´s my point as well, but Buttoneer thinks it´s rubbish that he was never that good to begin with...
This discussion could go on in 100 years from now, but I think as well that the key is in Michael´s motivation, he is just there to have fun, as he self-confessed...


#4883 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:40

That´s my point as well, but Buttoneer thinks it´s rubbish that he was never that good to begin with...

A bit of a simplistic summary, but that's right. I think he was a great driver, but that he's just had too long out and just doesn't have the same motivation these days.

#4884 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:48

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


Man, you really have to make up your mind about Schumacher. You keep changing your opinion to suit your agenda.

Is Schumacher slow?

Is Schumacher fast?

Was he good to begin with?

Was he rubbish from the start?

Were all his team mates rubbish?

If his team mates were all really as good as him, why didn't they flourish? Team orders? Not strong enough mentally? If so, were they really that good then?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.


A man who dedicates his entire life to motor sports, spends time away from his family and children, upto 6 hours in the gym, testing continously, analysing data for hours on end, spending time with engineers, at the factory and giving 110% effort to the cause simply can't be that bad. The man deserves respect for his commitment alone.


#4885 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:55

Yes, maybe motivation is right answer. When you know what will happen, you lose motivation. He came with desire to win WDC or at least some GPs. He see that this is impossible, he didn't come to fight for 7th or 8th place. For Nico this is normal, this is his way up. Alonso also lost motivation last year according Reno guys. For me he is putting everything in next year car, all his hopes. I think he really expected much better car. It is not very expiring to know that you drive shit car. But ,still there is a races left and I will enjoy them. I think we all know what is to lose motivation. I don't know what MGP promise him to come back? If they promise him very good car, you can understand what is situation in the team now. And who didn't keep his promise. I think there was some promise? Team also expected good car at the beginning.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 19:04.


#4886 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:01

He got his head down at Ferrari for four years before he started winning everything. To me he looks quite calm, happy, relaxed. Much more talkative than before. I seriously doubt he is lacking motivation, if that scrap with Alguersuari for P14 at Melbourne was anything to go by.

#4887 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:15

He got his head down at Ferrari for four years before he started winning everything. To me he looks quite calm, happy, relaxed. Much more talkative than before. I seriously doubt he is lacking motivation, if that scrap with Alguersuari for P14 at Melbourne was anything to go by.

I think Melbourne was early days, he wasn't sure about the car yet? There was upgrades, which didn't make car front runner. Maybe in Turkey when he see how McLaren left him there. Or latter. In the races he give everything, some time they try to aggressive, where they could have better result if they just keep good position after the start and just to improve from there. I hope they improve car in Spa, finally to get rid off EBD melting problem and to make their "sort off" F-duct working. Because other team preparation looks scary.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 19:19.


#4888 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:35

A bit of a simplistic summary, but that's right. I think he was a great driver, but that he's just had too long out and just doesn't have the same motivation these days.


Agreed with that one, Buttoneer, some of Schumi´s early races were scintillating, the spark was so much there. And I felt that spark the last time in Interlagos 2006.
So motivation is definitely the key, and Michael may have his motivation back in 2011 if and when Mercedes GP can provide him with a winner of a car.

Which brings us back to the other definition of Michael´s greatness - his ability to develop cars, galvanize the team and put all the parameters into his favour. We will still see if he has this form of greatness in 2011. One factor could be in his and Mercedes's favour - that Heidfeld is testing for Pirelli. One can only muse about the possibility, if Michael/Ross have pulled the strings in that direction, but in the old days such things could easily have been attributed to Michael and his team.

#4889 man

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:44

Man, you really have to make up your mind about Schumacher. You keep changing your opinion to suit your agenda.

Is Schumacher slow?

Is Schumacher fast?

Was he good to begin with?

Was he rubbish from the start?

Were all his team mates rubbish?

If his team mates were all really as good as him, why didn't they flourish? Team orders? Not strong enough mentally? If so, were they really that good then?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.


A man who dedicates his entire life to motor sports, spends time away from his family and children, upto 6 hours in the gym, testing continously, analysing data for hours on end, spending time with engineers, at the factory and giving 110% effort to the cause simply can't be that bad. The man deserves respect for his commitment alone.



I would have thought my stance is quite clear by now. He is as good now as he has always been. In that respect I agree with Ivand911 100%. The difference between now and his "successful" days is that he no longer has the entire team moulded around him alone, and the competition is significantly better. Therefore, I understand when some people think that he has "lost it" but like Ivand911, I believe he hasn't lost it at all. He is the same - everything around him has changed.

#4890 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:16

Agreed with that one, Buttoneer, some of Schumi´s early races were scintillating, the spark was so much there. And I felt that spark the last time in Interlagos 2006.
So motivation is definitely the key, and Michael may have his motivation back in 2011 if and when Mercedes GP can provide him with a winner of a car.

Is it good enough these days to only be motivated when the car is a winner? Personally, I don't think it is if you're a young driver looking to forge a career in F1 but maybe it's OK if your career is already behind you?

#4891 Anssi

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:23

As far as I am concerned I was never interested in seeing Mika Häkkinen continue in F1 if he could not continue winning. The same is true for Kimi Räikkönen - it only makes sense to have him back in F1 if he has the machinery to win races with. He has made that point and I agree with him. And the same is true for Michael Schumacher as well as far as I am concerned. Häkkinen and Räikkönen both won at least a race in their final season in the sport and so did Schumacher in 2006. I'm not interested in seeing any of these Champions come back to F1 to do no winning at all. If they are happy with it then they are welcome, but I don't see why should they. I think if next season is bad as well for Schumacher and Mercedes GP then we might see Schumacher cancel the 3rd year of his contract.

#4892 Diablobb81

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:58

Which is exactly the point of a discussion earlier in this thread: when having this great car and great team around him, Schumacher was great himself.
But, as you say, "because with great car even not great champions do remarkably well", there is a possibility that Schumacher was never that great himself to begin with...


And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.

#4893 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 22:19

The Monaco incident was controversial enough that it would be unreasonable to blame it on Schumacher. Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to. I'd still class that as a Schumacher win over Rosberg.

Fine, then we give Hungary to Nico. And so on.

The score is very much in favour of NR against his teammate and in qualifying it's a walkover. Michael is certainly the least impressive No 1 driver of all the teams and removing the tag No 1, he is performing at a level of Massa, who as I suspected has not recaptured his 2008/9 form when he could usually beat Kimi.

No matter how his fans like to paint it, and I know you are an objective observer Buttoneer, he is being outclassed and will need to find an improvement to be worthy of a seat in 2011, let alone get near his earlier extraordinary level.

#4894 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 22:33

As far as I am concerned I was never interested in seeing Mika Häkkinen continue in F1 if he could not continue winning. The same is true for Kimi Räikkönen - it only makes sense to have him back in F1 if he has the machinery to win races with. He has made that point and I agree with him. And the same is true for Michael Schumacher as well as far as I am concerned. Häkkinen and Räikkönen both won at least a race in their final season in the sport and so did Schumacher in 2006. I'm not interested in seeing any of these Champions come back to F1 to do no winning at all. If they are happy with it then they are welcome, but I don't see why should they. I think if next season is bad as well for Schumacher and Mercedes GP then we might see Schumacher cancel the 3rd year of his contract.

I was quite excited by the prospect of Michael's return, albeit a bit concerned if he may struggle and tarnish the good performances of old. It seems odd to me that his legion of fans are quite happy to watch him struggle on, a shadow of his former self, getting dominated by a young teammate who few rated as a front-line driver. I see many of these people rushing into desperate defence using increasingly implausible reasons why it's going so bad and why it will all be superb in 2 or 3 races time/when the car is developed to suit him/by mid season/next season and so on. The denigration of Nico has now given way to some saying he is up there with LH and FA. We also had a line of critiquing Rosberg that he has a poor appreciation of what a winning car takes and that he was convinced about this being a winning car while Michael said some sort of opposite and this made Michael the lion king etc.

Maybe the answers are quite straight forward, he has lost his speed and he is driving an uncompetitive car against a teammate who is faster than first thought. I might be wrong but it seems a simple, not over-simplistic answer to me. All the other excuses/reasons have so far been found wanting, unless you want to cling to the idea that Pirelli tyres and MB 2011 will favour Michael and be a dog for Nico's (similar) driving style.

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 22:43.


#4895 Kovalonso

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 23:14

Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to.

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

#4896 aditya-now

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 01:34

And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.


Not so. Think of the 1993 season. And I don´t mean Schumi. The Williams were devastatingly stronger than the rest of the field.
Yet a certain driver managed to win five races.

#4897 Jazza

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:38

And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.


Would it be pointless even if it was true? Maybe all the "greats" were not really that great, but were a product of circumstance. That may not go well with the fans of those drivers, but it may be the truth.

Ask most fans who the best drivers were for the last 30 years, and probably all of the drivers mentioned would have driven for Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, or Benetton/Renault. Do the greats end up at these 4 factories because they are great? Or do they become great because they drove for 1 (or more) of these 4 teams? It may be a chicken and the egg question, but with many drivers who were considered nobodies that suddenly looked impressive when in one of those cars, or drivers who were considered hot property that started looking rather average once they lost a seat in one of these teams, the idea of "great" drivers starts to look less and less genuine. Couple that with what has been a bit of a status-quo shift for F1 in the last two years with Brawn and Redbull building faster cars then the usual 4 teams, and a couple of midfield drivers can look as fast as the "greats" in a Ferrari or McLaren.

Basically, I see it from the other side. It seems pointless to label any driver "great" when that success has more to do with the seat they are sitting in as opposed to their ability in comparison to their rivals.



#4898 slaveceru

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:14

This form is like Marygoes around. There are some people here who enjoy watching Schumacher in such a form and are saying that they were always right about his performance and their main agenda is to express their long frustration about him, and then there are others who just like to make fun of people who worship Schumacher like he is a god in F1 racing. Both poles are trying to persuade others that they are right and the opposition is wrong. You cannot persuade a person who has already made his mind about something. The discussion would be better if there would be less individual judgment of his performance and more discussion based on the fact and not so much on different opinions. Each person has his opinion and it is hard to persuade him if you are just trying to prove him how wrong is he. The people who worship the guy had made a lot of nonsense excuses about his performance and the people who do not like the guy are saying all the time that he was not so great as other taught of him. So I will ask you if he was not so great as you say how great was he? I am hearing first time that you can measure the greatness: rotfl:
There are only two possibilities either he was great or he was not. Then it amuse me how far will some goes to prove that this year performance from him shows us that how good he really was and is :rotfl: So it is very hard to find an opinion which is not influenced just by worshiping or frustration. I would like to thank some of you who are trying to keep this forum on some level.


#4899 Jazza

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:53

This form is like Marygoes around. There are some people here who enjoy watching Schumacher in such a form and are saying that they were always right about his performance and their main agenda is to express their long frustration about him, and then there are others who just like to make fun of people who worship Schumacher like he is a god in F1 racing. Both poles are trying to persuade others that they are right and the opposition is wrong. You cannot persuade a person who has already made his mind about something. The discussion would be better if there would be less individual judgment of his performance and more discussion based on the fact and not so much on different opinions. Each person has his opinion and it is hard to persuade him if you are just trying to prove him how wrong is he. The people who worship the guy had made a lot of nonsense excuses about his performance and the people who do not like the guy are saying all the time that he was not so great as other taught of him. So I will ask you if he was not so great as you say how great was he? I am hearing first time that you can measure the greatness: rotfl:
There are only two possibilities either he was great or he was not. Then it amuse me how far will some goes to prove that this year performance from him shows us that how good he really was and is :rotfl: So it is very hard to find an opinion which is not influenced just by worshiping or frustration. I would like to thank some of you who are trying to keep this forum on some level.


Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.


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#4900 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:06

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

You just check, replay of what happened. Nico was behind Michael with intention to pass Alonso too. But ,Alonso block him, he wasn't really sure who is right then. If he was sure he can leave him to pass too. MGP drivers was told to race, both of them, it is not about who know the rules. Ross said after that they instructed both drivers, if you theory is that Michael is bad guy who don't know the rules and he take candy from small Alonso. No, you are not right.

Edited by ivand911, 21 August 2010 - 07:20.