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#4851 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:00

I never said I want everyone to worship Shumi. Im just saying the lack of respect and denigrating comments made by those blogs are not doing him any justice. Its also not fair, as there are lots of other drivers scoring just as badly vs teammates who are not slammed with ridiculous comments like: please, retire! Heikki vs lewis for instance. Kubica vs Petrov. Liuzzi vs Alguersuari. These bloghjournos are only 'offering their insights' on Shumi because it sells.


I doubt any of those with blogs are selling anything, but if they are then you are quite right. Remember, a blog is not a magazine, is usually free to subscribe to and is generally opinion based.

1. Michael isnt doing that badly


But he isn't doing that well, either; with respect, you're a writer on f1 and you have to write about everyone - what are you currently going to write about Michael? Are you going to ignore the aspects of his season that have hit the headlines just because you don't think it's 'fair'?

2. Michael should be entitled to some respect.


Why? Great, he's a 91 race winner and seven times world champion, and for that I respect him, but why would I - as a writer on the sport - feel 'aah, let's give the old guy some respect and not offer the opinion that I think he's performing poorly'? Michael is no more 'entitled to some respect' than you or I.

If you look to the race results, i only see 2 races where Michael really underperformed; Silverstone and China. The other races he got wrong strategies, got bad luck or finished real close to Rosberg.


You are, as it is, entitled to your opinion and if it is as above then fair play to you. As someone who has watched Michael's career and marvelled on many occasions at his ability I was expecting rather more than I have seen this year. I'm far from alone in that respect, and I believe a lot of his fans who are now saying but he's not doing that badly' are kidding themselves and also expected more. For that reason, I think he's underperforming quite clearly. Be honest - did you actually expect Nico Rosberg to bat him just about everywhere? I didn't.

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#4852 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:07

Rosberg made some fairly stupid mistakes last season too. But since I admire him im not too suprised how well he does and how much he improved, or how flat shumi performs. If there were a few more testsesions im not so sure if it would still be so one-sided. Just look how Fisi and Badoer absolutly drowned vs Kimi because they couldnt test a difficult Ferrari car.

And opinions ah :) If you read the Mclaren thread, and count how many times the mood swung from one side to the other i think the opinion on shumi isnt so bad ;)

The thing im more suprised about, is how the former pace setting and current world constructorschampions Brawn GP team (ok Mercedes) could get their calculations so wrong they are not a factor at all in the championship.

Edited by JackTorrance, 20 August 2010 - 14:09.


#4853 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:10

Rosberg made some fairly stupid mistakes last season too. But since I admire him im not too suprised how well he does and how much he improved, or how flat shumi performs. If there where a few more testsesions im not so sure if it would still be so one-sided.


Last season was last season; Rosberg's made very few mistakes this season. I'm not sure why more test sessions would help - they've both had the same in this car.

And opinions ah :) If you read the Mclaren thread, and count how many times the mood swung from one side to the other i think the opinion on shumi isnt so bad ;)


Ok.

The thing im more suprised about, is how the former pace setting and current world constructorschampions Brawn GP team (ok Mercedes) could get their calculations so wrong they are not a factor at all in the championship.


I don't think that's a surprise at all; others have got things right, and done a better job. It happens to all teams at some point.


#4854 Kovalonso

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:16

I never said I want everyone to worship Shumi. Im just saying the lack of respect and denigrating comments made by those blogs are not doing him any justice. Its also not fair, as there are lots of other drivers scoring just as badly vs teammates who are not slammed with ridiculous comments like: please, retire! Heikki vs lewis for instance. Kubica vs Petrov. Liuzzi vs Alguersuari. These bloghjournos are only 'offering their insights' on Shumi because it sells.

1. Michael isnt doing that badly

2. Michael should be entitled to some respect.

If you look to the race results, i only see 2 races where Michael really underperformed; Silverstone and China. The other races he got wrong strategies, got bad luck or finished real close to Rosberg.

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.
B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.
C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].

#4855 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:19

He also beat him at Turkey

#4856 Johnrambo

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:19

I am just enjoying 1998 Hungary: Race - Ch9 ITV. What were you saying? If someone doubt Michael I can recommend him 91 race he wouldn't want to miss. In this race I see things everyone here are accusing him. :rotfl:


And so what? He is useless now. That is what really matters.

#4857 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:20

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.

a quote?

B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.

quote again?

C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

true, ms can't design a mercedes.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

clearly, he's 7 times wdc with more races won than other even looked at tv

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].

barcelona, turkey?

#4858 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:21

And so what? He is useless now. That is what really matters.

glad we settled that.
anything else to add on this topic?

#4859 slaveceru

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:30

First of all Button does not have 2 WDC and Webber is not in the group of WDC winners at all. Were did I said that there are no difference between the drivers in F1 but you have said that Rosberg would be easily beaten by Alonso and Hamilton and I argue against it.

Did you already forgot what you type look at your post 12.41 last sentence I will copy the whole conversation here.

QUOTE (ivand911 @ Aug 20 2010, 11:30)
And where this led him: 5th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. 9th remind me something.


yes, but you are of the opinion that even great drivers need great cars; we both know that the Renault was no great car, yet Alonso did extract the maximum possible from it.


QUOTE
I wanted to check them both against Nico ,not against Michael. This will be fear thing to do , all of them driving when tyres changed. They all know them well. Just MGP car will provide fun part.


Interesting; what do you think the outcome would be? I think both Alonso and Hamilton would easily beat Rosberg.


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#4860 Lifew12

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 14:34

Did you already forgot what you type look at your post 12.41 last sentence I will copy the whole conversation here.


I did already forget what I typed! You're right, I did say they would easily beat Rosberg. I perhaps was being a bit unfair; while i'm pretty sure they would beat him, I'm in no doubt he'd put up a fight.

#4861 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 15:16

MS and his fans should expecting such coments, bcs:
A> Max Mosley admitted to have helped Ferrari and MS.
B> Mercedes changes the car according to his wishes, despite NR being the fastest.
C> MS/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were also overtaken by Rubens/Willians/Cosword in the car development race.

So MS is not in the same bag as any other 2nd driver.

Schumy only defeated Rosie in Monaco, but made a forbiden move on Alonso and got punished [12º], finishing behind Rosie [7º].


A> Max Mosley admitted only to favouring Ferrari against what he described as the British mafia. That's not the same as 'helped' though of course he may have done.
B> Nico is on record to say that he has the same car requirements as Schumacher. A development direction in Schumachers direction will benefit Nico.
C> NR/Ross Brawn/Mercedes were not overtaken by Rubens/Williams/Cosworth in the car development race.

The Monaco incident was controversial enough that it would be unreasonable to blame it on Schumacher. Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to. I'd still class that as a Schumacher win over Rosberg.

#4862 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:15

For a slow driver ,there is a lot of discussion on this thread. There is only one way to see if Michael is getting slower. Give him the car he drove before with the same tyres on the same track and just check the lap times. If they are the same(+- 0,150- 0,200) , which I think they will be then he is not going slower. It is easy, but will never happen. Everything else is BS. Michael started well in winter test matching Nico. Or maybe just this tracks wasn't tyre oriented. But, in some moment he understand that with this car he don't have hope of even one win. Maybe he lost some desire, they started to make stupid mistakes, to test the car and try same very aggressive tactics. Nico felt well because for him this car was the best he ever drove, he was happy until some races. For Michael was the worst car, he rejected it from the start. Because the car can't be changed, the way car work with the tyres also can't be changed and I think Michael just turn his focus to next year car. I mean he focus on this not to repeat with next year car what they have now. For the races from now on, will important where all midfield teams will stop development, who stop at higher level will have advantage. They all will go back comparing with the teams who will fight for championships.

#4863 man

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:20

For a slow driver ,there is a lot of discussion on this thread. There is only one way to see if Michael is getting slower. Give him the car he drove before with the same tyres on the same track and just check the lap times. If they are the same(+- 0,150- 0,200) , which I think they will be then he is not going slower. It is easy, but will never happen. Everything else is BS. Michael started well in winter test matching Nico. Or maybe just this tracks wasn't tyre oriented. But, in some moment he understand that with this car he don't have hope of even one win. Maybe he lost some desire, they started to make stupid mistakes, to test the car and try same very aggressive tactics. Nico felt well because for him this car was the best he ever drove, he was happy until some races. For Michael was the worst car, he rejected it from the start. Because the car can't be changed, the way car work with the tyres also can't be changed and I think Michael just turn his focus to next year car. I mean he focus on this not to repeat with next year car what they have now. For the races from now on, will important where all midfield teams will stop development, who stop at higher level will have advantage. They all will go back comparing with the teams who will fight for championships.


I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.

Edited by man, 20 August 2010 - 16:21.


#4864 Sakae

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:30

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


Could you cite explanatory examples of special treatments that he has received in the past and aided him in winning the races, and that could be available to him today, but are not? Do not forget rules had changed in past a few years, thus if he was ahead in points, and T-car was needed, he would get it most of times. He cannot get it today because mainly there are no more T-cars available, so that would be a bad example.

His role seems to change this year (and recently) to support Nico R., than anything else anyway, because he is behind in points.

#4865 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 16:30

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.

I don't expect any real speed from Michael with this car . He have enough time to fight with it. But we don't have way to check this, only if he try another car and set some better time. I am sure he can set better lap time with RBR,McLaren or Ferrari. Especially with Ferrari. :) How better nobody knows, but much better than MGP times. Maybe to have good car is preferential treatment as you say. Then a lot of drivers have such.


#4866 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:14

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


That´s my point as well, but Buttoneer thinks it´s rubbish that he was never that good to begin with...
This discussion could go on in 100 years from now, but I think as well that the key is in Michael´s motivation, he is just there to have fun, as he self-confessed...


#4867 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:40

That´s my point as well, but Buttoneer thinks it´s rubbish that he was never that good to begin with...

A bit of a simplistic summary, but that's right. I think he was a great driver, but that he's just had too long out and just doesn't have the same motivation these days.

#4868 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:48

I agree with you, he isn't any slower now than before. It goes with what Lauda has said, you don't lose your speed just like that, you lose your motivation to take risks. But in M Schumacher's case, he takes risks now just as he did in 1994 and 1997 for example. The competition is simply better than it was before and he is not receiving preferential treatment now.


Man, you really have to make up your mind about Schumacher. You keep changing your opinion to suit your agenda.

Is Schumacher slow?

Is Schumacher fast?

Was he good to begin with?

Was he rubbish from the start?

Were all his team mates rubbish?

If his team mates were all really as good as him, why didn't they flourish? Team orders? Not strong enough mentally? If so, were they really that good then?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.


A man who dedicates his entire life to motor sports, spends time away from his family and children, upto 6 hours in the gym, testing continously, analysing data for hours on end, spending time with engineers, at the factory and giving 110% effort to the cause simply can't be that bad. The man deserves respect for his commitment alone.


#4869 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:55

Yes, maybe motivation is right answer. When you know what will happen, you lose motivation. He came with desire to win WDC or at least some GPs. He see that this is impossible, he didn't come to fight for 7th or 8th place. For Nico this is normal, this is his way up. Alonso also lost motivation last year according Reno guys. For me he is putting everything in next year car, all his hopes. I think he really expected much better car. It is not very expiring to know that you drive shit car. But ,still there is a races left and I will enjoy them. I think we all know what is to lose motivation. I don't know what MGP promise him to come back? If they promise him very good car, you can understand what is situation in the team now. And who didn't keep his promise. I think there was some promise? Team also expected good car at the beginning.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 19:04.


#4870 JackTorrance

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:01

He got his head down at Ferrari for four years before he started winning everything. To me he looks quite calm, happy, relaxed. Much more talkative than before. I seriously doubt he is lacking motivation, if that scrap with Alguersuari for P14 at Melbourne was anything to go by.

#4871 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:15

He got his head down at Ferrari for four years before he started winning everything. To me he looks quite calm, happy, relaxed. Much more talkative than before. I seriously doubt he is lacking motivation, if that scrap with Alguersuari for P14 at Melbourne was anything to go by.

I think Melbourne was early days, he wasn't sure about the car yet? There was upgrades, which didn't make car front runner. Maybe in Turkey when he see how McLaren left him there. Or latter. In the races he give everything, some time they try to aggressive, where they could have better result if they just keep good position after the start and just to improve from there. I hope they improve car in Spa, finally to get rid off EBD melting problem and to make their "sort off" F-duct working. Because other team preparation looks scary.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2010 - 19:19.


#4872 aditya-now

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:35

A bit of a simplistic summary, but that's right. I think he was a great driver, but that he's just had too long out and just doesn't have the same motivation these days.


Agreed with that one, Buttoneer, some of Schumi´s early races were scintillating, the spark was so much there. And I felt that spark the last time in Interlagos 2006.
So motivation is definitely the key, and Michael may have his motivation back in 2011 if and when Mercedes GP can provide him with a winner of a car.

Which brings us back to the other definition of Michael´s greatness - his ability to develop cars, galvanize the team and put all the parameters into his favour. We will still see if he has this form of greatness in 2011. One factor could be in his and Mercedes's favour - that Heidfeld is testing for Pirelli. One can only muse about the possibility, if Michael/Ross have pulled the strings in that direction, but in the old days such things could easily have been attributed to Michael and his team.

#4873 man

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 19:44

Man, you really have to make up your mind about Schumacher. You keep changing your opinion to suit your agenda.

Is Schumacher slow?

Is Schumacher fast?

Was he good to begin with?

Was he rubbish from the start?

Were all his team mates rubbish?

If his team mates were all really as good as him, why didn't they flourish? Team orders? Not strong enough mentally? If so, were they really that good then?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.


A man who dedicates his entire life to motor sports, spends time away from his family and children, upto 6 hours in the gym, testing continously, analysing data for hours on end, spending time with engineers, at the factory and giving 110% effort to the cause simply can't be that bad. The man deserves respect for his commitment alone.



I would have thought my stance is quite clear by now. He is as good now as he has always been. In that respect I agree with Ivand911 100%. The difference between now and his "successful" days is that he no longer has the entire team moulded around him alone, and the competition is significantly better. Therefore, I understand when some people think that he has "lost it" but like Ivand911, I believe he hasn't lost it at all. He is the same - everything around him has changed.

#4874 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:16

Agreed with that one, Buttoneer, some of Schumi´s early races were scintillating, the spark was so much there. And I felt that spark the last time in Interlagos 2006.
So motivation is definitely the key, and Michael may have his motivation back in 2011 if and when Mercedes GP can provide him with a winner of a car.

Is it good enough these days to only be motivated when the car is a winner? Personally, I don't think it is if you're a young driver looking to forge a career in F1 but maybe it's OK if your career is already behind you?

#4875 Anssi

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:23

As far as I am concerned I was never interested in seeing Mika Häkkinen continue in F1 if he could not continue winning. The same is true for Kimi Räikkönen - it only makes sense to have him back in F1 if he has the machinery to win races with. He has made that point and I agree with him. And the same is true for Michael Schumacher as well as far as I am concerned. Häkkinen and Räikkönen both won at least a race in their final season in the sport and so did Schumacher in 2006. I'm not interested in seeing any of these Champions come back to F1 to do no winning at all. If they are happy with it then they are welcome, but I don't see why should they. I think if next season is bad as well for Schumacher and Mercedes GP then we might see Schumacher cancel the 3rd year of his contract.

#4876 Diablobb81

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 20:58

Which is exactly the point of a discussion earlier in this thread: when having this great car and great team around him, Schumacher was great himself.
But, as you say, "because with great car even not great champions do remarkably well", there is a possibility that Schumacher was never that great himself to begin with...


And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.

#4877 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 22:19

The Monaco incident was controversial enough that it would be unreasonable to blame it on Schumacher. Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to. I'd still class that as a Schumacher win over Rosberg.

Fine, then we give Hungary to Nico. And so on.

The score is very much in favour of NR against his teammate and in qualifying it's a walkover. Michael is certainly the least impressive No 1 driver of all the teams and removing the tag No 1, he is performing at a level of Massa, who as I suspected has not recaptured his 2008/9 form when he could usually beat Kimi.

No matter how his fans like to paint it, and I know you are an objective observer Buttoneer, he is being outclassed and will need to find an improvement to be worthy of a seat in 2011, let alone get near his earlier extraordinary level.

#4878 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 22:33

As far as I am concerned I was never interested in seeing Mika Häkkinen continue in F1 if he could not continue winning. The same is true for Kimi Räikkönen - it only makes sense to have him back in F1 if he has the machinery to win races with. He has made that point and I agree with him. And the same is true for Michael Schumacher as well as far as I am concerned. Häkkinen and Räikkönen both won at least a race in their final season in the sport and so did Schumacher in 2006. I'm not interested in seeing any of these Champions come back to F1 to do no winning at all. If they are happy with it then they are welcome, but I don't see why should they. I think if next season is bad as well for Schumacher and Mercedes GP then we might see Schumacher cancel the 3rd year of his contract.

I was quite excited by the prospect of Michael's return, albeit a bit concerned if he may struggle and tarnish the good performances of old. It seems odd to me that his legion of fans are quite happy to watch him struggle on, a shadow of his former self, getting dominated by a young teammate who few rated as a front-line driver. I see many of these people rushing into desperate defence using increasingly implausible reasons why it's going so bad and why it will all be superb in 2 or 3 races time/when the car is developed to suit him/by mid season/next season and so on. The denigration of Nico has now given way to some saying he is up there with LH and FA. We also had a line of critiquing Rosberg that he has a poor appreciation of what a winning car takes and that he was convinced about this being a winning car while Michael said some sort of opposite and this made Michael the lion king etc.

Maybe the answers are quite straight forward, he has lost his speed and he is driving an uncompetitive car against a teammate who is faster than first thought. I might be wrong but it seems a simple, not over-simplistic answer to me. All the other excuses/reasons have so far been found wanting, unless you want to cling to the idea that Pirelli tyres and MB 2011 will favour Michael and be a dog for Nico's (similar) driving style.

Edited by Muz Bee, 20 August 2010 - 22:43.


#4879 Kovalonso

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 23:14

Rosberg would have done the same thing if he were in a position to.

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

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#4880 aditya-now

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 01:34

And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.


Not so. Think of the 1993 season. And I don´t mean Schumi. The Williams were devastatingly stronger than the rest of the field.
Yet a certain driver managed to win five races.

#4881 Jazza

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:38

And the logical conclusion would be that you can't say about any driver that he was great. Which would be pointless.


Would it be pointless even if it was true? Maybe all the "greats" were not really that great, but were a product of circumstance. That may not go well with the fans of those drivers, but it may be the truth.

Ask most fans who the best drivers were for the last 30 years, and probably all of the drivers mentioned would have driven for Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, or Benetton/Renault. Do the greats end up at these 4 factories because they are great? Or do they become great because they drove for 1 (or more) of these 4 teams? It may be a chicken and the egg question, but with many drivers who were considered nobodies that suddenly looked impressive when in one of those cars, or drivers who were considered hot property that started looking rather average once they lost a seat in one of these teams, the idea of "great" drivers starts to look less and less genuine. Couple that with what has been a bit of a status-quo shift for F1 in the last two years with Brawn and Redbull building faster cars then the usual 4 teams, and a couple of midfield drivers can look as fast as the "greats" in a Ferrari or McLaren.

Basically, I see it from the other side. It seems pointless to label any driver "great" when that success has more to do with the seat they are sitting in as opposed to their ability in comparison to their rivals.



#4882 slaveceru

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:14

This form is like Marygoes around. There are some people here who enjoy watching Schumacher in such a form and are saying that they were always right about his performance and their main agenda is to express their long frustration about him, and then there are others who just like to make fun of people who worship Schumacher like he is a god in F1 racing. Both poles are trying to persuade others that they are right and the opposition is wrong. You cannot persuade a person who has already made his mind about something. The discussion would be better if there would be less individual judgment of his performance and more discussion based on the fact and not so much on different opinions. Each person has his opinion and it is hard to persuade him if you are just trying to prove him how wrong is he. The people who worship the guy had made a lot of nonsense excuses about his performance and the people who do not like the guy are saying all the time that he was not so great as other taught of him. So I will ask you if he was not so great as you say how great was he? I am hearing first time that you can measure the greatness: rotfl:
There are only two possibilities either he was great or he was not. Then it amuse me how far will some goes to prove that this year performance from him shows us that how good he really was and is :rotfl: So it is very hard to find an opinion which is not influenced just by worshiping or frustration. I would like to thank some of you who are trying to keep this forum on some level.


#4883 Jazza

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:53

This form is like Marygoes around. There are some people here who enjoy watching Schumacher in such a form and are saying that they were always right about his performance and their main agenda is to express their long frustration about him, and then there are others who just like to make fun of people who worship Schumacher like he is a god in F1 racing. Both poles are trying to persuade others that they are right and the opposition is wrong. You cannot persuade a person who has already made his mind about something. The discussion would be better if there would be less individual judgment of his performance and more discussion based on the fact and not so much on different opinions. Each person has his opinion and it is hard to persuade him if you are just trying to prove him how wrong is he. The people who worship the guy had made a lot of nonsense excuses about his performance and the people who do not like the guy are saying all the time that he was not so great as other taught of him. So I will ask you if he was not so great as you say how great was he? I am hearing first time that you can measure the greatness: rotfl:
There are only two possibilities either he was great or he was not. Then it amuse me how far will some goes to prove that this year performance from him shows us that how good he really was and is :rotfl: So it is very hard to find an opinion which is not influenced just by worshiping or frustration. I would like to thank some of you who are trying to keep this forum on some level.


Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.


#4884 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:06

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

You just check, replay of what happened. Nico was behind Michael with intention to pass Alonso too. But ,Alonso block him, he wasn't really sure who is right then. If he was sure he can leave him to pass too. MGP drivers was told to race, both of them, it is not about who know the rules. Ross said after that they instructed both drivers, if you theory is that Michael is bad guy who don't know the rules and he take candy from small Alonso. No, you are not right.

Edited by ivand911, 21 August 2010 - 07:20.


#4885 slaveceru

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:21

Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.

Greatness has nothing to do with top 100 drivers list. In each period there were a few great drivers and this list compare these drivers amongst them so it is the popularly list of great drivers nothing more and nothing less. Then tell me how you can measure greatness? If you have a measuring tool than you can say that one driver in those lists is greater than the rest. Personally I do not give a crap about those lists that says on driver is greater than the rest.

Edited by slaveceru, 21 August 2010 - 07:33.


#4886 Jazza

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:17

Greatness has nothing to do with top 100 drivers list. In each period there were a few great drivers and this list compare these drivers amongst them so it is the popularly list of great drivers nothing more and nothing less. Then tell me how you can measure greatness? If you have a measuring tool than you can say that one driver in those lists is greater than the rest. Personally I do not give a crap about those lists that says on driver is greater than the rest.


You can't, hence the rest of my post. But people trying to is certainly nothing new.

#4887 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:19

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.

#4888 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:22

Thank you for my 1000 post. :clap:

#4889 man

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:40

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.


I would guess it has. ;-) He gets people talking. Then again, Mugabe gets people talking...

#4890 Fortymark

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:03

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.


Well for starters, did you join because of him?
It´s not really allowed to discuss other posters so I will not mention
any names but there are many old timers that are back now (defending Michael..)
Of course, there is more activity. MS has many fans..

#4891 Lifew12

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:08

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased?


This is an interesting point; I would think it has, but what is telling is the quality of the posts. It's all very well writing ten times a day that he's the greatest, etc, but when the main thing that is being discussed is his evidently lacklustre display this season it's not exactly positive, is it?

What i can say, as I am involved in a forum similar (if much smaller) than this one, is that when he retired we lost a few hardy posters; we gained plenty more thanks to Hamilton's arrival on the scene, however.

#4892 carbonfibre

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:17

It has increased for sure, but the overall quality of posts regarding schumacher went down massively. Which was also to be expected.

#4893 aditya-now

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:26

What i can say, as I am involved in a forum similar (if much smaller) than this one, is that when he retired we lost a few hardy posters; we gained plenty more thanks to Hamilton's arrival on the scene, however.


I would say the same, nothing of the dimension of Lewis Hamilton. Michael has his bunch, but it´s not the world anymore. Compare the number of posts in this thread and the Mercedes GP thread and the Schumacher-Rosberg thread with the Hamilton/McLaren/Lewis-Jenson threads.

The tone is also largely different in these threads, the tone in the Hamilton threads being, shall we say, mmm, much more Anglo-saxon....

If anything, the Alonso threads have lost out, and that´s strange, as the Spaniards should be happy with Fernando at Ferrari.

Among the teammate comparisons, Schumi is doing rather poorly:

Jenson and Lewis Scorecard 2010 [merged] 15,864
Alonso and Massa Scorecard (Merged) 5,281
Vettel and Webber scorecard 2010 4,919
Schumacher and Rosberg Scorecard 2010 [merged] 3,769


As a single person, Michael is doing very well, but his thread is one month older than the Alonso thread:

Lewis Hamilton (merged) 9,226
Michael Schumacher (merged) 4,909
Fernando Alonso (merged) 4,164
Sebastian Vettel (merged) 227
Mark Webber 38


Edited by aditya-now, 21 August 2010 - 12:53.


#4894 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:38

I would have thought my stance is quite clear by now. He is as good now as he has always been. In that respect I agree with Ivand911 100%. The difference between now and his "successful" days is that he no longer has the entire team moulded around him alone, and the competition is significantly better. Therefore, I understand when some people think that he has "lost it" but like Ivand911, I believe he hasn't lost it at all. He is the same - everything around him has changed.


I can't see how you would come to that conclusion without taking into account his age, 3 years out and lack of testing.....I seriously can't, unless you are clinging on to that assertion to suit your agenda.


It's like saying Muhammad Ali never really lost his ability and he was always good but Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick were just leagues ahead of him which is why they could beat him. If you said that, people would laugh you out of the room.

You're confusing motivation with ability. The motivation is still there, but the ability (reflexes, psychology etc) has gone IMO. He KNOWS what to do, but cant do it any more. It's like Muhammad Ali in his last few years. He KNEW how to get out of the way of the punches but just couldn't do it any more.

#4895 man

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:47

I can't see how you would come to that conclusion without taking into account his age, 3 years out and lack of testing.....I seriously can't, unless you are clinging on to that assertion to suit your agenda.


It's like saying Muhammad Ali never really lost his ability and he was always good but Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick were just leagues ahead of him which is why they could beat him. If you said that, people would laugh you out of the room.

You're confusing motivation with ability. The motivation is still there, but the ability (reflexes, psychology etc) has gone IMO. He KNOWS what to do, but cant do it any more. It's like Muhammad Ali in his last few years. He KNEW how to get out of the way of the punches but just couldn't do it any more.


Ross Brawn and M Schumacher himself claim the man is as good as he was in 2006, if not better. Who are we to argue. The three years out business is old hat now - because as well all know he has done more than 600 laps in the car not including pre-season testing, qualifying and practice sessions.


#4896 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 13:59

Well for starters, did you join because of him?

Yes.


#4897 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:23

Ross Brawn and M Schumacher himself claim the man is as good as he was in 2006, if not better. Who are we to argue. The three years out business is old hat now - because as well all know he has done more than 600 laps in the car not including pre-season testing, qualifying and practice sessions.


So basically, everybody from 1991-2006 was just shit then?

And since 2007 they've all become great?

Your logic. Not mine.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 21 August 2010 - 16:24.


#4898 man

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:37

So basically, everybody from 1991-2006 was just shit then?

And since 2007 they've all become great?

Your logic. Not mine.


Your words not mine. ;-)

The logic of my stance is clear my friend. You just don't like it quite obviously. ;-)

1. The level of competition (teams and drivers) is significantly better now than it was between 1994 and 2004 and in particular.

2. M Schumacher no longer has a team moulded around him as he did during his Ferrari and Benetton days, which means less resources focused upon him alone.

3. M Schumacher has had plenty of time to adapt to the 2010 scenario. He is back to what he was - dangerous and demented driving and all ;-)

4. He just aint good enough to compete with the top talent of 2010. Alonso, Hamilton et al (like Brundle has said) are much, much better than the general quality of opposition he faced during his "heyday".

:yawnface:




#4899 slaveceru

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:05

1. The level of competition (teams and drivers) is significantly better now than it was between 1994 and 2004 and in particular.


I do not think that competition is better than the time that Schumacher began to drive but it is better from 2006 onwards. This is mainly due to the rules which have changed F1 competition in such a way that the cars are more standardized (less aerodynamic freedom, electronic is standardized all the teams have the same tires).

2. M Schumacher no longer has a team moulded around him as he did during his Ferrari and Benetton days, which means less resources focused upon him alone.

True

3. M Schumacher has had plenty of time to adapt to the 2010 scenario. He is back to what he was - dangerous and demented driving and all ;-)


I personally do not think so because there is almost no testing and in Bahraini he begun to drive a different car in comparison to the car that he drove in winter tests. It was also true for Rosberg but he did not come from retirement.

4. Alonso, Hamilton et al (like Brundle has said) are much, much better than the general quality of opposition he faced during his "heyday".


Once again it is just jour speculation and speculation especially from Brundle which has resentment against Schumacher.

Generaly we all know what is your opinion about Schumacher and you are repeation your self.

Edited by slaveceru, 21 August 2010 - 17:08.


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#4900 man

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:10

Generaly we all know what is your opinion about Schumacher and you are repeation your self.


Deja vu!

And I think I know your opinion too although its a bit confusing sometimes. :-)

Ferrari 20001 keeps asking me the same questions that I have given the answer to him already like 64243 times. Give him a minute, he'll be back again and we'll start from square 1. :lol:

Edited by man, 21 August 2010 - 17:11.