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#4901 schuey100

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:37

I would guess it has. ;-) He gets people talking. Then again, Mugabe gets people talking...


So does Jesus.

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#4902 Gilles12

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:39

So does Jesus.


But Michael performs better on water than Jesus

#4903 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:42

But Michael performs better on water than Jesus

Hallelujah


#4904 eoin

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:34

Onto a slightly different topic...

Has anyone heard anything about the different direction that Schumacher took at Hungary with regard to the setup of the car? I remember watching qualifying and thinking that the car looked fairly pointy but the lap time told a different story. Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip. There has been a lot of talk about the amount of rake that Red Bull and Ferrari have been running recently and I see that McLaren are also talking a rake but tbh I am not sure what they mean by 'floor rakes'. In theory rake should give extra downforce at the front but as the car wasn't designed to run with rake it would probably make the rear more unstable.

#4905 ivand911

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:42

Onto a slightly different topic...

Has anyone heard anything about the different direction that Schumacher took at Hungary with regard to the setup of the car? I remember watching qualifying and thinking that the car looked fairly pointy but the lap time told a different story. Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip. There has been a lot of talk about the amount of rake that Red Bull and Ferrari have been running recently and I see that McLaren are also talking a rake but tbh I am not sure what they mean by 'floor rakes'. In theory rake should give extra downforce at the front but as the car wasn't designed to run with rake it would probably make the rear more unstable.

Nico and Michael have different set up there. Nico was having set up for the Qualy, where Michael have set up for the race(which is stupid really,especially in Hungary,where start position is important ). Ross also confirm different set up and he said before the race: now we will see which set up will work better with the tyres. No more details. I think MGP car generally don't have good grip.


#4906 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:52

Deja vu!

And I think I know your opinion too although its a bit confusing sometimes. :-)

Ferrari 20001 keeps asking me the same questions that I have given the answer to him already like 64243 times. Give him a minute, he'll be back again and we'll start from square 1. :lol:



You're clearly getting quite frustrated.

All I'm questioning is your agenda and the leading way you construct your posts and threads regarding Schumacher. Oh, and you also repeatedly change your stance to suit your agenda.;)

But anyway, do carry on. :up:

#4907 man

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 19:08

You're clearly getting quite frustrated. ...Is the wrong answer

All I'm questioning is your agenda and the leading way you construct your posts and threads regarding Schumacher. Oh, and you also repeatedly change your stance to suit your agenda.;) ...Is the wrong answer

But anyway, do carry on. :up: You're too kind! :D



#4908 Jimisgod

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 07:57

Among the teammate comparisons, Schumi is doing rather poorly:



I dare say because Schumacher fans do not want to do all that many comparisons to his teammate for... obvious reasons.

#4909 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:42

Random gif time

Posted Image

MS testing at Barcelona with no TC. :)



#4910 Big Block 8

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 19:54

Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.


Pretty much my thoughts as well. :up:

And as repetitive it is, I have to ask once again - why oh why don't they quit this two drivers per one team per one season junk and instead rotate all drivers through all teams during one season. Then after a while we would have Top 100 lists that would actually mean something.

#4911 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 20:15

Onto a slightly different topic...

Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip.

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 22 August 2010 - 20:16.


#4912 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:41

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)



Shhhh

Don't talk facts. We're only allowed to rant and shout about how rubbish Michael Schumacher is/was on this thread.

#4913 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:49

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)

Yes ,Michael have very used tyres ,but also his back of the car melted from hot gases. His under body also got damage from the heat.

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2010 - 09:30.


#4914 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:26

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

It's very easy to throw around polemics isn't it?
Have a link and a quote;

"At 15:52 we were told the track was clear and and at 15:53 was the chequered flag. So, from the instructions we have from the FIA, the safety car was coming in on the final lap but the race wasn't finishing under the safety car and it's a very important distinction so we advised our drivers that they could still race between safety car line one and the start/finish line."

Also, your description of it being a 'cheat' does not accord with my view of the incident, but that's a discussion not for this thread.


#4915 One

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:45

Michael has got his association with cheating in longer races runs than just one incidents, so it is a bit tough thing for Michael about it. Fans surely know about it and therefore will be vigorously discussed about if he was cheating or not.

In any cases I do think that Michael is under achieving in his own scale.

I do think that Mercedes is being very patient, and will remain so for coming two years. I am starting to wonder about it: if in case Mercedes has let other driver race the car, ...

#4916 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:24

I do think that Mercedes is being very patient, and will remain so for coming two years. I am starting to wonder about it: if in case Mercedes has let other driver race the car, ...

If they promise him race wining car to come back in F1, maybe he is patient with the team? Or they tell him we have bad car and this year will be team/car development only? But, this not connect well with their intentions for race wins and fighting for WDC and WCC?
And in Monaco 2010 as it was being proved, there was not cheating, it was team decision. Which here more than 72% of forum people approve.


#4917 One

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:34

If they promise him race wining car to come back in F1, maybe he is patient with the team? Or they tell him we have bad car and this year will be team/car development only? But, this not connect well with their intentions for race wins and fighting for WDC and WCC?
And in Monaco 2010 as it was being proved, there was not cheating, it was team decision. Which here more than 72% of forum people approve.


Could be. I am wondering, I mean looking for explanation, about the matter you are posing to me here.

If, Hamilton was to race for Mercedes this year, for example, what... It is a none sense scenario tho. But in the past had we seen a driver replacing one just to check out the reality. With Michael Schumacher driving, such a thought is far from being acceptable, but therefore...

#4918 ivand911

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:54

If, Hamilton was to race for Mercedes this year, for example, what... It is a none sense scenario tho. But in the past had we seen a driver replacing one just to check out the reality. With Michael Schumacher driving, such a thought is far from being acceptable, but therefore...

I like our discussion. :) I would really like to see Lewis in this MGP car. To hear his opinion and to see his result. I know this car(there is to much problems in it) can't compare with McLaren and I expect him to say: WTF is this? If next year situation is the same, then maybe we will not see Michael in F1 in 2012. I think if team release NH this mean they stay firmly behind Michael?

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2010 - 11:55.


#4919 merschu

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 13:12

"Pressure? I can handle it"

Everyone wants to have a pop at Michael Schumacher these days - especially after the Hungarian Grand Prix. His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael, but it's the first time since his comeback that he's shown a glimpse of the ruthlessness he was famed for in his Ferrari heyday. While the mantle of villainy now seems to have been passed on to Fernando Alonso these days, for the most part this season Schumacher has been left with a raft of fans and pundits alike simply claiming he's past it and should never have come back. He could always absorb accusations of not playing by the rules with a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders, a tactic that's clearly been adopted by Alonso. But how does a seven-time world champion react to people... well, writing him off as a has-been?

"Are they? I do not think so," states Michael Schumacher with emphatic clarity, never leaving room for a shred of ambiguity. "Maybe some have, but they have not understood how I am: I love to fight, I love to compete, I love to work with my team. Of course it would be easier if everything worked out better at the moment, but then it is a process - a three-year-project that has just started. I can only say that it would be far too early to write me off yet. I intend to be here for a while and go for it."

If it was someone like Romain Grosjean saying this, you may be tempted to have a little snigger while you nodded thoughtfully with a 'serious interview face', but this is Michael Schumacher. He is a legend: a man with the same number of world titles as Alain Prost and Niki Lauda combined. But surely some pressure must have seeped through his seemingly impenetrable Germanic exterior?

"No, not too much," comes the considered response. "It is clear that there is pressure when you put together three names like Mercedes, Ross and mine, especially after Ross and his team won last year's championship. Internally, we were aware that this year could be very different to last, but clearly this was not obvious to the outside, which is why their expectations were somewhat different. Pressure is okay though, I can handle it I think. My approach has not changed because of that, I am still aiming to fight for the title."

But when? Most observers have already written off his chances of winning a race this season, the thinking being that he couldn't have picked a more difficult season to come back. So has it been harder than he thought? "Yes, in a way. I was probably underestimating how far away the cars and tyres we have now are from the cars and tyres we had then." There's also the issue of testing, something Schumacher used to his advantage so much at Ferrari - and he would like to make his feelings known...

"The fact that testing is not allowed any more - something that made me even think of whether to come back at all - is not helping here. It is somewhat stupid, considering the amount of effort, work and money which is put into the sport. So yes, I am still running a bit behind in some areas, such as qualifying. But I am confident enough to think I can still develop, as this has always been the nature of the sport and this has always been one of the things I like so much about it."



http://www.f1racing.co.uk/testdrive



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#4920 Kovalonso

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:44

http://www.f1racing.co.uk/testdrive

"His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael,.."

That's not accurate.
Rubens told Schumy never asked for apologies to him, personally.


#4921 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:51

"His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael,.."

That's not accurate.
Rubens told Schumy never asked for apologies to him, personally.


Why should be? Rubens made a big stink over it all IMO. That's not to say Schumacher wasn't at fault, but Barrichello's whinging and courting the media exacerbated the situation.

#4922 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:59

All drivers are required to give interviews immediately following the race or their retirement from it. That s not 'courting the media' that is part of the job and perfectly reasonable for him to comment on such a major incident when he is asked about it.

#4923 Muz Bee

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:50

All drivers are required to give interviews immediately following the race or their retirement from it. That s not 'courting the media' that is part of the job and perfectly reasonable for him to comment on such a major incident when he is asked about it.

Just to reinforce what you say because there is so much misconception about media comment..... and you are dead right Buttoneer.

Drivers don't just amble up to a journalist and say "Hey, ......!" It's always the other way around. Journos are always looking for an "angle" and they will try to make a casual comment into some kind of angry issue, so they can say they have a "scoop". Rubens comments if distilled properly show he thinks michael was wrong and rather unrepentant but that he wants to get on with things. Now I would be the first to say that Rubens is not one of the cleverer users of the media, especially when you consider his age and experience, but he was well within his rights to say everything he said about "that move".

While it is good to see Michael is as committed as ever, by witness his number of scrappy moments arguing over a couple of points, perhaps he would be better to hide behind an approach of "what's the point busting ass for a single point, I'm waiting for next year's car" and hint at Nico chasing the WDC points is getting the team's backing. None of which is true obviously but he is coming under a lot of pressure about the pasting he is getting.

Edited by Muz Bee, 24 August 2010 - 01:51.


#4924 jimm

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:39

Nico and Michael have different set up there. Nico was having set up for the Qualy, where Michael have set up for the race(which is stupid really,especially in Hungary,where start position is important ). Ross also confirm different set up and he said before the race: now we will see which set up will work better with the tyres. No more details. I think MGP car generally don't have good grip.



I think the fact he is taking these kind of weirdly thought out risks demonstrates how lost he actually is at the moment.

#4925 steveninthematrix

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:14

im sticking with, with pirelli tires coming in, and going to be very different to bridgestone tires, and everyone starting from day1 with these tires, i expect michael to jump ahead...

f1 is hyper-competitive, except for the aero-lack of overtaking, so, nico is very very good, michael qualifies 3-5 tenths behind nico, and it looks huge....

that being said, this constant idea of calling michael early in to do a very long stint on his last set of tires, hasnt worked once yet; he never has tires at the end of the race and every race, it just keeps happening; MS pits before Nico most races;

Regards

Steven

#4926 ivand911

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:39

I think the fact he is taking these kind of weirdly thought out risks demonstrates how lost he actually is at the moment.

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.

Edited by ivand911, 24 August 2010 - 06:52.


#4927 Lifew12

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:49

im sticking with, with pirelli tires coming in, and going to be very different to bridgestone tires, and everyone starting from day1 with these tires, i expect michael to jump ahead...


What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'? Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41! Perhaps, after a year, we'll finally get rid of the 'he's been away three years' stigma, however! he can still complain about the lack of testing though as, like this year, he gets the same as everyone else!

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.



#4928 One

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:10

It is strange to hear that The Michael's car was set up for race trim facing the critical qualify. Everyone knows that Q rulles the result there. Now why? Tyre? No...

I am starting to think that Ross is checking up how Michael is healthy in his racing skill, now am I gone crazy?

One thing is clear, if there is no result after three seasons, it is Ross and Michael goes down after letting millions of Mercedes money or only One of them going down, for sure none will face such scenario. I do think that Nico is showing some slight edges in a same car.

#4929 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:43

What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'? Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41! Perhaps, after a year, we'll finally get rid of the 'he's been away three years' stigma, however! he can still complain about the lack of testing though as, like this year, he gets the same as everyone else!

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.


No excuses for next year. Everyone is on the same playing field.

#4930 Lifew12

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:01

No excuses for next year. Everyone is on the same playing field.


Everyone's on the same playing field now; Michael's done as much testing as anyone, and as many races.

#4931 ivand911

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:08

I am starting to think that Ross is checking up how Michael is healthy in his racing skill, now am I gone crazy?

I think if he want to check his racing skill he can leave him on same set up like Nico? You can imagine that Nico will set up his car better, if we accept that he have some advantage with tyre knowledge from last 2-3 years? If he put him on different strategy this mean they just test, but not Michael? But we see some very strange things from the team. With such things you not make points.


#4932 slaveceru

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:15

What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'?


He has never said that he does not like tires he just said that it is hard to predict the optimal working temperature range of this tires. Once again there is probability that the reason is not in the tires but in the car how it uses these tires. If you look at Kimi in 2008 he had problems with tires the whole year in comparison to Massa and they find that the car was the reason so next year they have redesigned the car and problems with tires have disappeared.

Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41!


I think that age on it self it is not the major problem the major problem is in the cars they have changed dramatically over this three years. He has probably also underestimated his ability to adapt to new cars, rules and tires which is also affected by restricted testing.

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.


The tires can change everything or nothing it depends mostly on the car how it is designed to use the rubber.

Edited by slaveceru, 24 August 2010 - 12:57.


#4933 Lifew12

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:56

He has never said that he does not like tires he just said that it is hard to predict the optimal working temperature range of this tires.


That's true of many teams and drivers.


I think that age on it self it is not the major problem the major problem is in the cars they have changed dramatically over this three years. He has probably also underestimated his ability to adapt to new cars, rules and tires which is also affected by restricted testing.


If he's underestimated such as you say, how does that help him next year?


The tires can change everything or nothing it depends mostly on the car how it is designed to use the rubber.


Or how well the driver adapts to different types of rubber, different handling cars, different rules, different teams, etc, etc.

I simply can't see any reason why he'll suddenly be bags better next year, and his team mate won't. Surely, if the car is going to be better - and we hope it is - that applies to both drivers?



#4934 slaveceru

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 13:24

That's true of many teams and drivers.

:up:

If he's underestimated such as you say, how does that help him next year?


I do not understand you? He is in the learning process so no one knows how long it will take him to understand these new cars. I also think that he does not know if the problem lays in the car, tires or in him self.

Or how well the driver adapts to different types of rubber, different handling cars, different rules, different teams, etc, etc.


Ok than Kimi could not adapt to tires and Masa could in 2008. So what was the reason that Kimi came back in 2009? There is no driver on the whole world that could adapt to every situation. Do you belong to a group of people who are saying that kind of stories?

I simply can't see any reason why he'll suddenly be bags better next year, and his team mate won't. Surely, if the car is going to be better - and we hope it is - that applies to both drivers?


I can give you one good reason he is driving a car that was designed for Button. Do you know some other driver on the F1 grid that is in the same situation I do not?
Some questions about his level of performance will be answered next year. Next year the car will be designed for him and there will be new tires. We will find out next year if he is just too slow.


#4935 jimm

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 14:50

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.



None of this really has any inpact on setting a car up specifically for the race ignoring qualifying at a track where you rarely loose a position after the start unless it is in the pits. Certainly not a strategy designed for success.

As far as MS and tire management...this has really never the strongest part of his game...even before the tires he is using this year. Maybe they are writing off this season for him. For his sake it would be better if that were true.

#4936 Lifew12

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 16:31

:
I do not understand you? He is in the learning process .....



Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.


#4937 Kovalonso

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 16:49

The culprit is Ross Brawn.

He should have hired Danica instead of Rosberg.
If the 2nd driver was 0.3 sec slower than MS, then they could blame the car 100% for his misery.
After Jenson 'Cinderella' Button's WDC, the team came back to be a Honda pumpkin.

But Nico can't understand his hole in the Universe...

#4938 Birelman

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 17:13

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.

Oh, I think I know this one, this is the one where Cinderella dresses up like a princess and goes to the party? :rotfl:

#4939 SeanValen

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 17:53

Everyone's on the same playing field now; Michael's done as much testing as anyone, and as many races.




I think most of the field has done more races and testing then Michael in the last 3 years, that's the main point I think. Arriving to a new team that doesn't understand why it's tyres are not always working isn't the best season to return too, his reputaiton as most successful and hype and all that doesn't change the nature of the challenges he's had, you can't compare his return and absense with any other current driver on the field.

Have some patience, not all the answers anyone is looking for is going to come from 2010. I remember alot of people wanting Jean Todt off the ferrari team back in 1996 when things were not going well, Schumacher stuck up for Todt saying he was one of the teams stengths. When your singling out one man and not every other factor going against that man in one year, it can be premature to have final verdicits. Everything has their timings, the truth is Michael, Brawn and Mecedes know more about their potential and issues then you, me and anyone here, the best we can do to find out how it turns out is to wait and watch it unfold and don't call judgement until everyone has played their cards in this 3 year project on paper. :smoking: :smoking: :up:

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#4940 schuey100

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 18:03

Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.


Wow that's a very aggressive tone! Maybe I'm misreading it but you sound like one angry puppy, like someone that reads the Daily Mail or sees a cat and puts it into a bin.

But getting back on topic, I think Schumacher was hired for a number of reasons, one of which was to win the WDC during his contract period, the other, possibly stronger reason, was for the marketing opportunity. In any case, I doubt they care all that much about his salary, I have a feeling he more than covers it in the sponsors Mercedes can attract, the increase in car sales etc etc etc.

Is Michael the greatest ever? Maybe, maybe not. Is he now rubbish? Maybe, maybe not. There could be a multitude of reasons that he's struggling, the tyre issues seem to be mentioned by both him and Mercedes so maybe we ought to give that some credence. One thing we do know, if he was costing Mercedes the chance of a WDC or putting them in the red due to some horrid excessive salary or even if he was having a negative impact on the brand then he would be out on his ear. This is big business and Mercedes is ruthless enough to get rid if they think it improves the team.

So for now I'll take their inaction as evidence that Schumacher is still adding something to the team.

#4941 ivand911

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 18:05

Oh, I think I know this one, this is the one where Cinderella dresses up like a princess and goes to the party? :rotfl:

And this post was helpful because, you know fairy-tales? Or you just got in wrong forum.


#4942 Muz Bee

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 22:01

I think most of the field has done more races and testing then Michael in the last 3 years, that's the main point I think. Arriving to a new team that doesn't understand why it's tyres are not always working isn't the best season to return too, his reputaiton as most successful and hype and all that doesn't change the nature of the challenges he's had, you can't compare his return and absense with any other current driver on the field.

Have some patience, not all the answers anyone is looking for is going to come from 2010. I remember alot of people wanting Jean Todt off the ferrari team back in 1996 when things were not going well, Schumacher stuck up for Todt saying he was one of the teams stengths. When your singling out one man and not every other factor going against that man in one year, it can be premature to have final verdicits. Everything has their timings, the truth is Michael, Brawn and Mecedes know more about their potential and issues then you, me and anyone here, the best we can do to find out how it turns out is to wait and watch it unfold and don't call judgement until everyone has played their cards in this 3 year project on paper. :smoking: :smoking: :up:

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.

#4943 SeanValen

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:35

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.



No other driver been away from f1 for 3 years on current grid. One driver is not on the same page in this case. Nice try though.


Webber was on the same page as others in the past, he only writ some pages worth noting in his career in 2010, and he's been in f1 for what since 2001. :wave:

What you don't know now you may know in the future and that's worth leaving a door open for. Jenson Button and Webber have done nothing worth writing home about for most of their f1 careers, but one has a title and the other is going for one this year, that alone if you menstioned to forumers a few years ago, we both would be laughed at, those guys are good f1 pilots, both have been written off publically and by fans over the years, but certain cars/teams/certain seasons can brainwash the public. So Hamilton now is doing clearly better then Button, but because their friends/englsh/decent teamate pairing/community unity of british mclaren solitute :) it somehow lets Button off the hook, but hold on a minute, he is the current champion, but they know deep down Hamilton is better. The situation with Button is, we know why he's gotten beaten by Schumacher over the years in race of champions, we know the MS of Spain 2010 beat Button in his best showing this year. Button has only hit it gold for one season in his f1 career, yet he hasn't retired for 3 years and is back in a team with Hamlton, the only excuse Button could use, it's a new team for him, if that's the case, MS has 3 years away plus new team, surely MS is more on fragile ground this year then Button.. Schumacher on the otherhand has hit it gold with titles 7 times and challenges for more, I think Michael is allowed to get it totally wrong especially after a retirement, what he is doing is more unique situation then other drivers on the grid, Button on the otherhand shows a journeyman accepting the 1 title he has and knows now he won't get the better of guys like Hamilton and Alonso, Button actually made way for ALonso at Renault, and now Hamilton's beating Button, maybe Briatore was right about Button, he's miss, miss, miss, jackpott, back to miss, miss etc Schumacher jackpot takes 7 plus bonus challenges for the titels jackpot,

Schumacher main player for title challenges-94/95/97/98/2000/2001/2002/2003/2004/2006 9 title challenging seasons where he came close or won titles as a main player for title fights, from 94, only 96/99/2005/2010 hasn't worked out-99 we can understand because of his broken leg-96 we can understand as he gave up a title to kickstart a broken ferrari team-which leaves 2005/2010 as the only real disappointing seasons, 1 season which was 2005 is a result of rule change over rule change to finally trip his successful team up-tyres, just no matter what he did, they never got on top of the situation, now 2010-1st season back from retirement-team has issues with tyres/combine this with his return to f1 without testing era, you could say he still has the best title challenging stat of all drivers, that he will be in the hunt, both 2005/2010 team didn't understand tyres, Schumacher falled/now he's a retirement man returning to his state, so I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, and see how his 3 year project turns out, becase given his strike rate for title challenges, he's more then likely to figure in.

F1 is too complicated to appreciate the inners workings of mercedes/brawn and MS and the work they have to do to improve. I don't know what's going on, no one does except them and their moviated to improve and make sure this season doesn't happen again, I admire the effort and confidence of what awaits. It's work in progress, nothing to conclude on yet, 2 early, some are just not with the long term thinking approach. But you have too, some problems in one season just don't go away but they can end dying this year when the season finishes and give him cleanslate for 2011, the problems MS has had in 2010 he's working with the team to ensure it's ironed out in 2011, this year even with bad results, he's gotta make the best of the situation, there is no testing, but the testing is the gps, and I think with the team he knows opportunities are there to work out what to avoid/try in 2011, even with his grid penality at Spa, you know he's a computer brain who gives feedback his teams have always found productive.

Edited by SeanValen, 25 August 2010 - 03:08.


#4944 jimm

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:51

Lewis is overall better than Button but Button had done well this year. That said, in the current form, I would take Button over MS this year. His speed has been better than expected compared to Lewis and he makes better calls reading the race than MS does.

Webber has raised his game this year and his pace compared to Vettel confirms this...he would be hard for MS to live with in the same car.


As far as your comments about MS, it does not matter what you did 6 years ago (yes it has been 6 years since he won a WDC) it matters what you can do now. Does it take away respect for WHAT he accomplished? no It impacts what he CAN DO right now...which is not match a driver who has never won a race....In fact while you say Button is just a journyman, he has in fact won races for 3 different teams, as of yet, Rosberg has not shown he can win at this level.

Put it this way, I respect what Lauda did coming back from his accident and his comback (which BTW was much more succesful than MS's)...but regardless, I would not put him an a race car.

MS not to that level but you can't take his past record as the reason for him to keep racing now. Next season, he either improves or should consider something else to do.

Edited by jimm, 25 August 2010 - 03:53.


#4945 aditya-now

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 04:46

What puts the brakes on Schumi's comeback?

http://www.auto-moto...ck-2721656.html

The most reputable German motor racing magazine auto motor und sport starts to detect a shift in the German perception of Michael Schumacher.

"Schumacher, that was yesterday. Today is Vettel" - Bild

"I can even detect some regression with Michael " - Gerhard Berger, who before the season believed Michael could do everything up to an 8th WDC title.

Indeed, the curves are pointing downwards.

Today, Schumacher is not the undisputed number one within his team anymore.....

The old regs were in favour of Michael, when tank stops meant that the race was broken up in several increments. Nowadays Michael has to carry the car across the finish line.....

Today's opponents have a different quality. They are like Michael, just 15 years younger....

The working craze of Schumacher is not rewarded anymore. The learning process now happens within one weekend.... Michael misses testing....

Then there are the electronic helps. Michael used them more than others ("understood earlier than others how helpful they are"). But they don't exist anymore or have been severly restricted....

And then there is the tyres: Michael is not used to having the same tyres like everyone else ("kennt keine Reifen von der Stange")...
Nico can circle the car around the track in a more sensitive way.

Christian Danner:"Michael tries with force when the grip is not there"

Franz Tost:"Today Michael starts to think while driving. Previously he did it instinctively"

Rubens Barrichello:"Michael's driving style is poison for the tyres. He wins his time from turning in till the apex....That kills the rear tyres. Today's tyres stop working in that way. Previously, Bridgestone build a tailor-made tyre for Michael, that works with his driving style."

What Michael now needs, is not fine-tuning. He needs a radical change. But if he can do it is doubtable - it is more difficult with 41 than with 22....
With Pirelli a new age starts, but it is doubtful, if it will be a better age for Michael. Like Bridgestone, Pirelli will build a tyre to be on the safe side.


That doesn't sound good for Michael, as AMuS is the motorsport bible of Germany (like Autosport in GB).

So far they were holding back, but now it is a consumate analysis. They throw light on everything we have discussed in this thread. Not good. I even spared you some of the painful parts.

"Is the time of Schumi already over?"

#4946 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:35

Michael Schumacher is in 'the learning process'? After 12 races, and 15 years of top level F1 racing before, and you're happy to proclaim he's 'learning'? Let's get something straight here and it's something that, quite frankly, should be obvious: Mercedes didn't hire him so he could 'learn', they hired him so he could win. They hired him because he's a seven times world champion and 91 race winner, they hired him because they expected him - quite frankly - to piss all over Rosberg and justify the salary they are paying him. They didn't hire him as part of a mystical 'three year plan'but to win now, here, this weekend. That much should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Yet, after twelve race weekends and as much testing as anyone else has had - no more, no less - you think this veteran of F1, this man who many reckon to be - with good reason - is one of the greatest drivers of all time and the greatest of the modern era, is still 'learning'? For heavens sake, if it takes him 12, and maybe more, weekends to 'learn' what the bloody hell was the point in hiring him? With respect, you're talking nonsense; anyone with half a head would readily conclude that, by now, Michael has 'learned' all he needs to beat Nico Rosberg in the same car. If he hasn't, you have to - logically - question what he's doing there.

So you know everything about Mercedes, Schumacher and everything else so why are we even discussing about Schumacher if you know everything. First of all we are in times that a person has to learn all the time and this process prolongs with aging. In every area when you are missing for a long time it is hard to come back and this is true also in racing. There is no measuring tool to measure how long it will take the individual to come back if he even can. Every word that you have written is just speculation so it is hard to have discussion with you. You are trying to hard to force your opinion to me. No GP or WDC wins can help you in the learning, so why are you mixing those two things. He has to learn how to drive this cars, he has to learn everything about new tires, new type of training (simulators). Generally experience can help him in some delicate racing situations in the races. Here is the basic definition of learning to learn is to acquire knowledge or skill. Learning also may involve a change in attitude or behavior. In other words he has to acquire new skills or knowledge and this is hard if you are experienced because you think that you know something and than you figure out that you do not. So once again why are you mixing experience with learning?

#4947 slaveceru

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:46

New regs this year - no refueling - means everyone is on the same page. Nice try though.

Yes what about double diffuser, what about all the things that have changed on the car from 2006 onwards what about testing which is done in simulator now days and has become important because there is limited testing why are you not considering those things? Why are you just saying things that help you to prove your point and forget everything else? This is not discussion if you do not take in the consideration of all the things that have changed in those three years. So you are provocative and you try to persuade others are you successful or are you seeking people on the forum who have similar opinion about Schumacher as you do?

Edited by slaveceru, 25 August 2010 - 05:56.


#4948 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:13

Every word that you have written is just speculation


Utter nonsense; the man has 15 years of experience driving a wide range of different cars, on different tyres, with different engines, different regulations, and different characteristics. He's won 91 races, and seven world titles. That's not speculation, it's fact, and it's a good reason why citing a 'learning curve' is nonsense. Further, Mercedes hired to him to win, not to learn; that's not speculation either - you hire Vitaly Petrov, Hulkenberg, a newcomer with promise if you want to give them a learnign curve, not a man with 200 plus races behind him. he's now had 12 races, with the same amount of testing as everyone else; that's not speculation, it's fact, again. You may be happy to overlook all this in the search for excuses, but it's simply that - a search for excuses.

Here's something more for you to contemplate, and these are your words:

"He has to learn how to drive this cars, he has to learn everything about new tires, "

He's going to have to do that next year, too; the car will be different, the tyres will be different, the characteristics will be different, he'll have no more testing than anyone else; surely he's going to need another 12 races on his learning curve, at least, again?

Far from trying to 'force my opinion on you' I'm suggesting you look a little closer at what you're saying; the most successful driver in the sport, a man with few peers and who the team boss still reckons is better than everyone else, shouldn't need a learning curve of two thirds of a season or more.


#4949 Lifew12

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:16

Wow that's a very aggressive tone! Maybe I'm misreading it but you sound like one angry puppy,


Far from angry, simply continually fed up with people trying to convince me that one of the most experienced drivers in teh field, and the most successful of all time, is somehow still on a 'learning curve' after 12 races. If that makes sense to you, great, but it shouldn't.


#4950 ivand911

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:42

Far from angry, simply continually fed up with people trying to convince me that one of the most experienced drivers in teh field, and the most successful of all time, is somehow still on a 'learning curve' after 12 races. If that makes sense to you, great, but it shouldn't.

Why you think that you know what should make sense? No body try to convince you of anything, maybe you try to hard to convince other? If you are not convinced it is OK. Don't listen others. They are people with different understanding here , nobody can convince anyone if he don't want to be convinced. I don't think here someone will lose his sleep if you are not convinced. This is just forum, it is for fun, not some very deeply serious stuff. :)