Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20789 replies to this topic

#4901 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:21

Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.

Greatness has nothing to do with top 100 drivers list. In each period there were a few great drivers and this list compare these drivers amongst them so it is the popularly list of great drivers nothing more and nothing less. Then tell me how you can measure greatness? If you have a measuring tool than you can say that one driver in those lists is greater than the rest. Personally I do not give a crap about those lists that says on driver is greater than the rest.

Edited by slaveceru, 21 August 2010 - 07:33.


Advertisement

#4902 Jazza

Jazza
  • Member

  • 1,001 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:17

Greatness has nothing to do with top 100 drivers list. In each period there were a few great drivers and this list compare these drivers amongst them so it is the popularly list of great drivers nothing more and nothing less. Then tell me how you can measure greatness? If you have a measuring tool than you can say that one driver in those lists is greater than the rest. Personally I do not give a crap about those lists that says on driver is greater than the rest.


You can't, hence the rest of my post. But people trying to is certainly nothing new.

#4903 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:19

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.

#4904 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:22

Thank you for my 1000 post. :clap:

#4905 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:40

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.


I would guess it has. ;-) He gets people talking. Then again, Mugabe gets people talking...

#4906 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,774 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:03

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased? If any one can give us such info? Can we just say thank you Michael for being with us. Thank you for endless threads, for opportunity to discuss you.


Well for starters, did you join because of him?
It´s not really allowed to discuss other posters so I will not mention
any names but there are many old timers that are back now (defending Michael..)
Of course, there is more activity. MS has many fans..

#4907 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:08

I am interested if with Michael return forum activity increased?


This is an interesting point; I would think it has, but what is telling is the quality of the posts. It's all very well writing ten times a day that he's the greatest, etc, but when the main thing that is being discussed is his evidently lacklustre display this season it's not exactly positive, is it?

What i can say, as I am involved in a forum similar (if much smaller) than this one, is that when he retired we lost a few hardy posters; we gained plenty more thanks to Hamilton's arrival on the scene, however.

#4908 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,289 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:17

It has increased for sure, but the overall quality of posts regarding schumacher went down massively. Which was also to be expected.

#4909 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,980 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:26

What i can say, as I am involved in a forum similar (if much smaller) than this one, is that when he retired we lost a few hardy posters; we gained plenty more thanks to Hamilton's arrival on the scene, however.


I would say the same, nothing of the dimension of Lewis Hamilton. Michael has his bunch, but it´s not the world anymore. Compare the number of posts in this thread and the Mercedes GP thread and the Schumacher-Rosberg thread with the Hamilton/McLaren/Lewis-Jenson threads.

The tone is also largely different in these threads, the tone in the Hamilton threads being, shall we say, mmm, much more Anglo-saxon....

If anything, the Alonso threads have lost out, and that´s strange, as the Spaniards should be happy with Fernando at Ferrari.

Among the teammate comparisons, Schumi is doing rather poorly:

Jenson and Lewis Scorecard 2010 [merged] 15,864
Alonso and Massa Scorecard (Merged) 5,281
Vettel and Webber scorecard 2010 4,919
Schumacher and Rosberg Scorecard 2010 [merged] 3,769


As a single person, Michael is doing very well, but his thread is one month older than the Alonso thread:

Lewis Hamilton (merged) 9,226
Michael Schumacher (merged) 4,909
Fernando Alonso (merged) 4,164
Sebastian Vettel (merged) 227
Mark Webber 38


Edited by aditya-now, 21 August 2010 - 12:53.


#4910 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:38

I would have thought my stance is quite clear by now. He is as good now as he has always been. In that respect I agree with Ivand911 100%. The difference between now and his "successful" days is that he no longer has the entire team moulded around him alone, and the competition is significantly better. Therefore, I understand when some people think that he has "lost it" but like Ivand911, I believe he hasn't lost it at all. He is the same - everything around him has changed.


I can't see how you would come to that conclusion without taking into account his age, 3 years out and lack of testing.....I seriously can't, unless you are clinging on to that assertion to suit your agenda.


It's like saying Muhammad Ali never really lost his ability and he was always good but Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick were just leagues ahead of him which is why they could beat him. If you said that, people would laugh you out of the room.

You're confusing motivation with ability. The motivation is still there, but the ability (reflexes, psychology etc) has gone IMO. He KNOWS what to do, but cant do it any more. It's like Muhammad Ali in his last few years. He KNEW how to get out of the way of the punches but just couldn't do it any more.

#4911 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:47

I can't see how you would come to that conclusion without taking into account his age, 3 years out and lack of testing.....I seriously can't, unless you are clinging on to that assertion to suit your agenda.


It's like saying Muhammad Ali never really lost his ability and he was always good but Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick were just leagues ahead of him which is why they could beat him. If you said that, people would laugh you out of the room.

You're confusing motivation with ability. The motivation is still there, but the ability (reflexes, psychology etc) has gone IMO. He KNOWS what to do, but cant do it any more. It's like Muhammad Ali in his last few years. He KNEW how to get out of the way of the punches but just couldn't do it any more.


Ross Brawn and M Schumacher himself claim the man is as good as he was in 2006, if not better. Who are we to argue. The three years out business is old hat now - because as well all know he has done more than 600 laps in the car not including pre-season testing, qualifying and practice sessions.


#4912 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 13:59

Well for starters, did you join because of him?

Yes.


#4913 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:23

Ross Brawn and M Schumacher himself claim the man is as good as he was in 2006, if not better. Who are we to argue. The three years out business is old hat now - because as well all know he has done more than 600 laps in the car not including pre-season testing, qualifying and practice sessions.


So basically, everybody from 1991-2006 was just shit then?

And since 2007 they've all become great?

Your logic. Not mine.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 21 August 2010 - 16:24.


#4914 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 16:37

So basically, everybody from 1991-2006 was just shit then?

And since 2007 they've all become great?

Your logic. Not mine.


Your words not mine. ;-)

The logic of my stance is clear my friend. You just don't like it quite obviously. ;-)

1. The level of competition (teams and drivers) is significantly better now than it was between 1994 and 2004 and in particular.

2. M Schumacher no longer has a team moulded around him as he did during his Ferrari and Benetton days, which means less resources focused upon him alone.

3. M Schumacher has had plenty of time to adapt to the 2010 scenario. He is back to what he was - dangerous and demented driving and all ;-)

4. He just aint good enough to compete with the top talent of 2010. Alonso, Hamilton et al (like Brundle has said) are much, much better than the general quality of opposition he faced during his "heyday".

:yawnface:




#4915 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:05

1. The level of competition (teams and drivers) is significantly better now than it was between 1994 and 2004 and in particular.


I do not think that competition is better than the time that Schumacher began to drive but it is better from 2006 onwards. This is mainly due to the rules which have changed F1 competition in such a way that the cars are more standardized (less aerodynamic freedom, electronic is standardized all the teams have the same tires).

2. M Schumacher no longer has a team moulded around him as he did during his Ferrari and Benetton days, which means less resources focused upon him alone.

True

3. M Schumacher has had plenty of time to adapt to the 2010 scenario. He is back to what he was - dangerous and demented driving and all ;-)


I personally do not think so because there is almost no testing and in Bahraini he begun to drive a different car in comparison to the car that he drove in winter tests. It was also true for Rosberg but he did not come from retirement.

4. Alonso, Hamilton et al (like Brundle has said) are much, much better than the general quality of opposition he faced during his "heyday".


Once again it is just jour speculation and speculation especially from Brundle which has resentment against Schumacher.

Generaly we all know what is your opinion about Schumacher and you are repeation your self.

Edited by slaveceru, 21 August 2010 - 17:08.


#4916 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:10

Generaly we all know what is your opinion about Schumacher and you are repeation your self.


Deja vu!

And I think I know your opinion too although its a bit confusing sometimes. :-)

Ferrari 20001 keeps asking me the same questions that I have given the answer to him already like 64243 times. Give him a minute, he'll be back again and we'll start from square 1. :lol:

Edited by man, 21 August 2010 - 17:11.


#4917 schuey100

schuey100
  • Member

  • 655 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:37

I would guess it has. ;-) He gets people talking. Then again, Mugabe gets people talking...


So does Jesus.

#4918 Gilles12

Gilles12
  • Member

  • 853 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:39

So does Jesus.


But Michael performs better on water than Jesus

#4919 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 17:42

But Michael performs better on water than Jesus

Hallelujah


Advertisement

#4920 eoin

eoin
  • Member

  • 5,010 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:34

Onto a slightly different topic...

Has anyone heard anything about the different direction that Schumacher took at Hungary with regard to the setup of the car? I remember watching qualifying and thinking that the car looked fairly pointy but the lap time told a different story. Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip. There has been a lot of talk about the amount of rake that Red Bull and Ferrari have been running recently and I see that McLaren are also talking a rake but tbh I am not sure what they mean by 'floor rakes'. In theory rake should give extra downforce at the front but as the car wasn't designed to run with rake it would probably make the rear more unstable.

#4921 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:42

Onto a slightly different topic...

Has anyone heard anything about the different direction that Schumacher took at Hungary with regard to the setup of the car? I remember watching qualifying and thinking that the car looked fairly pointy but the lap time told a different story. Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip. There has been a lot of talk about the amount of rake that Red Bull and Ferrari have been running recently and I see that McLaren are also talking a rake but tbh I am not sure what they mean by 'floor rakes'. In theory rake should give extra downforce at the front but as the car wasn't designed to run with rake it would probably make the rear more unstable.

Nico and Michael have different set up there. Nico was having set up for the Qualy, where Michael have set up for the race(which is stupid really,especially in Hungary,where start position is important ). Ross also confirm different set up and he said before the race: now we will see which set up will work better with the tyres. No more details. I think MGP car generally don't have good grip.


#4922 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 18:52

Deja vu!

And I think I know your opinion too although its a bit confusing sometimes. :-)

Ferrari 20001 keeps asking me the same questions that I have given the answer to him already like 64243 times. Give him a minute, he'll be back again and we'll start from square 1. :lol:



You're clearly getting quite frustrated.

All I'm questioning is your agenda and the leading way you construct your posts and threads regarding Schumacher. Oh, and you also repeatedly change your stance to suit your agenda.;)

But anyway, do carry on. :up:

#4923 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 August 2010 - 19:08

You're clearly getting quite frustrated. ...Is the wrong answer

All I'm questioning is your agenda and the leading way you construct your posts and threads regarding Schumacher. Oh, and you also repeatedly change your stance to suit your agenda.;) ...Is the wrong answer

But anyway, do carry on. :up: You're too kind! :D



#4924 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,653 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 22 August 2010 - 07:57

Among the teammate comparisons, Schumi is doing rather poorly:



I dare say because Schumacher fans do not want to do all that many comparisons to his teammate for... obvious reasons.

#4925 Henrytheeigth

Henrytheeigth
  • Member

  • 4,655 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:42

Random gif time

Posted Image

MS testing at Barcelona with no TC. :)



#4926 Big Block 8

Big Block 8
  • Member

  • 2,423 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 22 August 2010 - 19:54

Really? People have been measuring the greatness of drivers for years. It is the very basis of Top 100 drivers list that so many fans and experts argue over. IMO there is a change in this view of late, that has lead to many people questioning if the picking order of drivers is as real as once believed.

Today most fans are aware of how car design and set up, coupled with track layout and environment have an effect on a drivers performance. Also, the way teams and drivers engineers can change the performance level of a driver has become better understood. Even the way team support can radically change the results of one driver compared to their team mate is acknowledged more then a few years ago. All these things had an effect in the past as well, but were not known or talked about anything like today. Drivers results were very black and white in years past. Driver A was better then Driver B, and Car A was better then car B etc. These days, those black and white views are becoming very grey. Driver A is better then driver B in this car, with this engineer, in this team, at this track, with these tyres, on this particular day with all the weather and other variables that it brings.

This kind of information must surely piss a lot of fans of certain driver off who would like to say "my driver is better then yours", and deromanticizes the status of many of the greats. But this grey and analytical view is probably a lot more realistic.


Pretty much my thoughts as well. :up:

And as repetitive it is, I have to ask once again - why oh why don't they quit this two drivers per one team per one season junk and instead rotate all drivers through all teams during one season. Then after a while we would have Top 100 lists that would actually mean something.

#4927 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,721 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 22 August 2010 - 20:15

Onto a slightly different topic...

Then in the race when Rubens was following Schumacher it was fairly clear that Schumacher had very poor rear grip.

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 22 August 2010 - 20:16.


#4928 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:41

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)



Shhhh

Don't talk facts. We're only allowed to rant and shout about how rubbish Michael Schumacher is/was on this thread.

#4929 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:49

compared to the williams on fresh tyres you can bet it had poor overall grip

ia remember KK passing a ferrari and a str on a last lap attempt in valencia under similar circumstances (i.e. fresh rubber)

Yes ,Michael have very used tyres ,but also his back of the car melted from hot gases. His under body also got damage from the heat.

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2010 - 09:30.


#4930 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,407 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:26

How do you know ?

You should provide some evidence, otherwise it is quite an ofense to say that Nico doesn't know the rules or that he would cheat too.

It's very easy to throw around polemics isn't it?
Have a link and a quote;

"At 15:52 we were told the track was clear and and at 15:53 was the chequered flag. So, from the instructions we have from the FIA, the safety car was coming in on the final lap but the race wasn't finishing under the safety car and it's a very important distinction so we advised our drivers that they could still race between safety car line one and the start/finish line."

Also, your description of it being a 'cheat' does not accord with my view of the incident, but that's a discussion not for this thread.


#4931 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:45

Michael has got his association with cheating in longer races runs than just one incidents, so it is a bit tough thing for Michael about it. Fans surely know about it and therefore will be vigorously discussed about if he was cheating or not.

In any cases I do think that Michael is under achieving in his own scale.

I do think that Mercedes is being very patient, and will remain so for coming two years. I am starting to wonder about it: if in case Mercedes has let other driver race the car, ...

#4932 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:24

I do think that Mercedes is being very patient, and will remain so for coming two years. I am starting to wonder about it: if in case Mercedes has let other driver race the car, ...

If they promise him race wining car to come back in F1, maybe he is patient with the team? Or they tell him we have bad car and this year will be team/car development only? But, this not connect well with their intentions for race wins and fighting for WDC and WCC?
And in Monaco 2010 as it was being proved, there was not cheating, it was team decision. Which here more than 72% of forum people approve.


#4933 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:34

If they promise him race wining car to come back in F1, maybe he is patient with the team? Or they tell him we have bad car and this year will be team/car development only? But, this not connect well with their intentions for race wins and fighting for WDC and WCC?
And in Monaco 2010 as it was being proved, there was not cheating, it was team decision. Which here more than 72% of forum people approve.


Could be. I am wondering, I mean looking for explanation, about the matter you are posing to me here.

If, Hamilton was to race for Mercedes this year, for example, what... It is a none sense scenario tho. But in the past had we seen a driver replacing one just to check out the reality. With Michael Schumacher driving, such a thought is far from being acceptable, but therefore...

#4934 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:54

If, Hamilton was to race for Mercedes this year, for example, what... It is a none sense scenario tho. But in the past had we seen a driver replacing one just to check out the reality. With Michael Schumacher driving, such a thought is far from being acceptable, but therefore...

I like our discussion. :) I would really like to see Lewis in this MGP car. To hear his opinion and to see his result. I know this car(there is to much problems in it) can't compare with McLaren and I expect him to say: WTF is this? If next year situation is the same, then maybe we will not see Michael in F1 in 2012. I think if team release NH this mean they stay firmly behind Michael?

Edited by ivand911, 23 August 2010 - 11:55.


#4935 merschu

merschu
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 23 August 2010 - 13:12

"Pressure? I can handle it"

Everyone wants to have a pop at Michael Schumacher these days - especially after the Hungarian Grand Prix. His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael, but it's the first time since his comeback that he's shown a glimpse of the ruthlessness he was famed for in his Ferrari heyday. While the mantle of villainy now seems to have been passed on to Fernando Alonso these days, for the most part this season Schumacher has been left with a raft of fans and pundits alike simply claiming he's past it and should never have come back. He could always absorb accusations of not playing by the rules with a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders, a tactic that's clearly been adopted by Alonso. But how does a seven-time world champion react to people... well, writing him off as a has-been?

"Are they? I do not think so," states Michael Schumacher with emphatic clarity, never leaving room for a shred of ambiguity. "Maybe some have, but they have not understood how I am: I love to fight, I love to compete, I love to work with my team. Of course it would be easier if everything worked out better at the moment, but then it is a process - a three-year-project that has just started. I can only say that it would be far too early to write me off yet. I intend to be here for a while and go for it."

If it was someone like Romain Grosjean saying this, you may be tempted to have a little snigger while you nodded thoughtfully with a 'serious interview face', but this is Michael Schumacher. He is a legend: a man with the same number of world titles as Alain Prost and Niki Lauda combined. But surely some pressure must have seeped through his seemingly impenetrable Germanic exterior?

"No, not too much," comes the considered response. "It is clear that there is pressure when you put together three names like Mercedes, Ross and mine, especially after Ross and his team won last year's championship. Internally, we were aware that this year could be very different to last, but clearly this was not obvious to the outside, which is why their expectations were somewhat different. Pressure is okay though, I can handle it I think. My approach has not changed because of that, I am still aiming to fight for the title."

But when? Most observers have already written off his chances of winning a race this season, the thinking being that he couldn't have picked a more difficult season to come back. So has it been harder than he thought? "Yes, in a way. I was probably underestimating how far away the cars and tyres we have now are from the cars and tyres we had then." There's also the issue of testing, something Schumacher used to his advantage so much at Ferrari - and he would like to make his feelings known...

"The fact that testing is not allowed any more - something that made me even think of whether to come back at all - is not helping here. It is somewhat stupid, considering the amount of effort, work and money which is put into the sport. So yes, I am still running a bit behind in some areas, such as qualifying. But I am confident enough to think I can still develop, as this has always been the nature of the sport and this has always been one of the things I like so much about it."



http://www.f1racing.co.uk/testdrive



#4936 Kovalonso

Kovalonso
  • Member

  • 540 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:44

http://www.f1racing.co.uk/testdrive

"His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael,.."

That's not accurate.
Rubens told Schumy never asked for apologies to him, personally.


#4937 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:51

"His move on Rubens Barrichello may have resulted in an unprecedented apology from Michael,.."

That's not accurate.
Rubens told Schumy never asked for apologies to him, personally.


Why should be? Rubens made a big stink over it all IMO. That's not to say Schumacher wasn't at fault, but Barrichello's whinging and courting the media exacerbated the situation.

#4938 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,407 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 August 2010 - 15:59

All drivers are required to give interviews immediately following the race or their retirement from it. That s not 'courting the media' that is part of the job and perfectly reasonable for him to comment on such a major incident when he is asked about it.

#4939 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:50

All drivers are required to give interviews immediately following the race or their retirement from it. That s not 'courting the media' that is part of the job and perfectly reasonable for him to comment on such a major incident when he is asked about it.

Just to reinforce what you say because there is so much misconception about media comment..... and you are dead right Buttoneer.

Drivers don't just amble up to a journalist and say "Hey, ......!" It's always the other way around. Journos are always looking for an "angle" and they will try to make a casual comment into some kind of angry issue, so they can say they have a "scoop". Rubens comments if distilled properly show he thinks michael was wrong and rather unrepentant but that he wants to get on with things. Now I would be the first to say that Rubens is not one of the cleverer users of the media, especially when you consider his age and experience, but he was well within his rights to say everything he said about "that move".

While it is good to see Michael is as committed as ever, by witness his number of scrappy moments arguing over a couple of points, perhaps he would be better to hide behind an approach of "what's the point busting ass for a single point, I'm waiting for next year's car" and hint at Nico chasing the WDC points is getting the team's backing. None of which is true obviously but he is coming under a lot of pressure about the pasting he is getting.

Edited by Muz Bee, 24 August 2010 - 01:51.


Advertisement

#4940 jimm

jimm
  • Member

  • 3,227 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:39

Nico and Michael have different set up there. Nico was having set up for the Qualy, where Michael have set up for the race(which is stupid really,especially in Hungary,where start position is important ). Ross also confirm different set up and he said before the race: now we will see which set up will work better with the tyres. No more details. I think MGP car generally don't have good grip.



I think the fact he is taking these kind of weirdly thought out risks demonstrates how lost he actually is at the moment.

#4941 steveninthematrix

steveninthematrix
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:14

im sticking with, with pirelli tires coming in, and going to be very different to bridgestone tires, and everyone starting from day1 with these tires, i expect michael to jump ahead...

f1 is hyper-competitive, except for the aero-lack of overtaking, so, nico is very very good, michael qualifies 3-5 tenths behind nico, and it looks huge....

that being said, this constant idea of calling michael early in to do a very long stint on his last set of tires, hasnt worked once yet; he never has tires at the end of the race and every race, it just keeps happening; MS pits before Nico most races;

Regards

Steven

#4942 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:39

I think the fact he is taking these kind of weirdly thought out risks demonstrates how lost he actually is at the moment.

You are right if this is only Michael decision. But, if this is team decision this mean they just test things? With Michael. In Germany Nico jump Michael with team approval. Because they pit Michael early he lost chance to jump Kubica, because going in the pit early wasn't right decision there. After Kubica came infront of him, he lost time behind him. Then they plan Nico to jump them both, but he couldn't and he landed before Michael only. For 10 laps he just managed to do around 1 sec to Michael, in this 10 laps they both got stuck behind other cars or doing fast laps. In the same 10 laps Button take 4 sec to the Lewis. In Hungary other cars managed to keep their tyres, Michael or his car can't do that. Maybe was from the heat(EBD) to the back tyres or just because he/car eat tyres. I hope in Spa they will come with sorted car, and we will see some strange strategy again. In Germany plan was not to pit early(according to Michael), maybe because he pass Nico at the start they changed the plan, but again Michael was at the losing end. Maybe they used Michael like bait for Kubica? To make him pit early.

Edited by ivand911, 24 August 2010 - 06:52.


#4943 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:49

im sticking with, with pirelli tires coming in, and going to be very different to bridgestone tires, and everyone starting from day1 with these tires, i expect michael to jump ahead...


What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'? Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41! Perhaps, after a year, we'll finally get rid of the 'he's been away three years' stigma, however! he can still complain about the lack of testing though as, like this year, he gets the same as everyone else!

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.



#4944 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:10

It is strange to hear that The Michael's car was set up for race trim facing the critical qualify. Everyone knows that Q rulles the result there. Now why? Tyre? No...

I am starting to think that Ross is checking up how Michael is healthy in his racing skill, now am I gone crazy?

One thing is clear, if there is no result after three seasons, it is Ross and Michael goes down after letting millions of Mercedes money or only One of them going down, for sure none will face such scenario. I do think that Nico is showing some slight edges in a same car.

#4945 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:43

What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'? Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41! Perhaps, after a year, we'll finally get rid of the 'he's been away three years' stigma, however! he can still complain about the lack of testing though as, like this year, he gets the same as everyone else!

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.


No excuses for next year. Everyone is on the same playing field.

#4946 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:01

No excuses for next year. Everyone is on the same playing field.


Everyone's on the same playing field now; Michael's done as much testing as anyone, and as many races.

#4947 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:08

I am starting to think that Ross is checking up how Michael is healthy in his racing skill, now am I gone crazy?

I think if he want to check his racing skill he can leave him on same set up like Nico? You can imagine that Nico will set up his car better, if we accept that he have some advantage with tyre knowledge from last 2-3 years? If he put him on different strategy this mean they just test, but not Michael? But we see some very strange things from the team. With such things you not make points.


#4948 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:15

What if he 'doesn't like them', much as is one of this years 'excuses'?


He has never said that he does not like tires he just said that it is hard to predict the optimal working temperature range of this tires. Once again there is probability that the reason is not in the tires but in the car how it uses these tires. If you look at Kimi in 2008 he had problems with tires the whole year in comparison to Massa and they find that the car was the reason so next year they have redesigned the car and problems with tires have disappeared.

Bear in mind, too, that he'll be older, and we're told part of the problem is he's 41!


I think that age on it self it is not the major problem the major problem is in the cars they have changed dramatically over this three years. He has probably also underestimated his ability to adapt to new cars, rules and tires which is also affected by restricted testing.

I can't see why a change of tyres will suddenly have such an impact as, as you say, everyone will have them - just as they do now.


The tires can change everything or nothing it depends mostly on the car how it is designed to use the rubber.

Edited by slaveceru, 24 August 2010 - 12:57.


#4949 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:56

He has never said that he does not like tires he just said that it is hard to predict the optimal working temperature range of this tires.


That's true of many teams and drivers.


I think that age on it self it is not the major problem the major problem is in the cars they have changed dramatically over this three years. He has probably also underestimated his ability to adapt to new cars, rules and tires which is also affected by restricted testing.


If he's underestimated such as you say, how does that help him next year?


The tires can change everything or nothing it depends mostly on the car how it is designed to use the rubber.


Or how well the driver adapts to different types of rubber, different handling cars, different rules, different teams, etc, etc.

I simply can't see any reason why he'll suddenly be bags better next year, and his team mate won't. Surely, if the car is going to be better - and we hope it is - that applies to both drivers?



#4950 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 24 August 2010 - 13:24

That's true of many teams and drivers.

:up:

If he's underestimated such as you say, how does that help him next year?


I do not understand you? He is in the learning process so no one knows how long it will take him to understand these new cars. I also think that he does not know if the problem lays in the car, tires or in him self.

Or how well the driver adapts to different types of rubber, different handling cars, different rules, different teams, etc, etc.


Ok than Kimi could not adapt to tires and Masa could in 2008. So what was the reason that Kimi came back in 2009? There is no driver on the whole world that could adapt to every situation. Do you belong to a group of people who are saying that kind of stories?

I simply can't see any reason why he'll suddenly be bags better next year, and his team mate won't. Surely, if the car is going to be better - and we hope it is - that applies to both drivers?


I can give you one good reason he is driving a car that was designed for Button. Do you know some other driver on the F1 grid that is in the same situation I do not?
Some questions about his level of performance will be answered next year. Next year the car will be designed for him and there will be new tires. We will find out next year if he is just too slow.