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New Jersey GP? [merged]


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#1 jonpollak

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:32

I can see it now..
THE GRAND PRIX of WEEHAWKEN
Brought to you by the good fellas at BadaBing.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/12316.html

Book now
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 25 March 2010 - 13:34.


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#2 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:40

I can see it now..
THE GRAND PRIX of WEEHAWKEN
Brought to you by the good fellas at BadaBing.
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/12316.html

Book now
Jp


Interesting. CART had a similar thing in the '80s, at the Meadowlands Sports Complex.

http://en.wikipedia...._Sports_Complex

Here's some YouTube -

Wasn't that bad an event, and is only a short hop across the river. It's is probably the most realistic place for a GP in America too if they don't want a return to Indy.

Edited by BrokenBaculum, 25 March 2010 - 13:41.


#3 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:42

To everyone in the City it will just be an annoyance.

#4 Madera

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:47

OK with me. Only about an hour drive from the Poconos.

#5 se7en_24

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:50

To everyone in the City it will just be an annoyance.

Would they even notice?

#6 Scudetto

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:54

If Bernie wants to stage a street race in New York, how does he accomplish that by running it in New Joyzie?

#7 rmac923

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:54

Note to Mods: Can you merge my USGP topic with this Topic, just so no one has to post on 2 threads?

#8 Owen

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 13:59

If Bernie wants to stage a street race in New York, how does he accomplish that by running it in New Joyzie?

You would still see the skyscrapers in the background and it would be 15 mins from the city centre apparently. But you're right, it's not like they're racing down 5th avenue...

#9 rmac923

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:00

As I stated in the other USGP thread, while a race in the Meadowlands is more feasible than in Manhattan, it's still unlikely. There's still the question of "Who'll pay Bernie's Ransom?" (Not the NJ Government!). The other problem is that in the past decade, there have been many attempts to build a Nascar oval, all of which failed. Now with Americans less familiar with Formula 1, they might be able to fly under the radar, unless the Taxpayers have to help foot the bill.

So I'm not holding my breath...

#10 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:03

Would they even notice?

Good question. Only if Bernie schedules some F1 through the streets (Wall St. or ? - Canal St. it should be) stunt. Or if they can actually hear them.


Hint - for those not use to NYC. Go to Canal St to purchase your "Team Gear" if/when the race comes to town....cheaper and it'll fall apart in about the same time.

#11 King Six

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:11

Bleh, New Jersey. I just think of some boring waterfront/dock/port similar to Valencia, Singapore and stuff. I don't know why everyone is trying to be like Monaco, which itself isn't much, it's just the history which brings the attention. History that won't really be able to be repeated when it comes to these new tracks as things are too different these days

#12 Garagiste

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:14

If Bernie wants to stage a street race in New York, how does he accomplish that by running it in New Joyzie?


I said it before, but I guess nobody hoourd me.


#13 EthanM

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:21

We need a Hoboken GP and we need it now

#14 Rosemayer

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:26

Nobody in NYC knows any thing about cars there is little to no parking and 95% or more of the people don't own a car they use cabs.bus,or subway to get around.

#15 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:30

Nobody in NYC knows any thing about cars there is little to no parking and 95% or more of the people don't own a car they use cabs.bus,or subway to get around.


So? They could just catch a bus or a taxi to the GP.

#16 mkay

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:39

I said it before, but I guess nobody hoourd me.


Are you trying to emulate the NJ accent, or what?

#17 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:40

So? They could just catch a bus or a taxi to the GP.

A taxi? they aren't leaving the city to take you to Jersey.
The bus? are you suicidal?
The train or the Ferry's are the way to go....or helicopter if your Bernie; flying over his minions Posted Image

#18 hulmerist

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:44

this is even more ridiculous than the rome gp

stop this mad man

#19 jonpollak

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:50

As I stated in the other USGP thread, while a race in the Meadowlands is more feasible than in Manhattan, it's still unlikely.


The Meadowlands is not within camera shot of the city

There's still the question of "Who'll pay Bernie's Ransom?"

As predicted in the OP...The good fella's of BadaBing...if ya get my drift.

We need a Hoboken GP and we need it now

hmmm...very interesting....maybe along Frank Sinatra drive then?

Nobody in NYC knows any thing about cars.

Neither do half the people who call themselves race fans...myself included.

the Ferry's are the way to go...

I like the ferry idea...yo.. imagine the price gouging on race day?


Madness keep us entertained,
Keep em coming
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 25 March 2010 - 14:53.


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#20 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 15:30

I like the ferry idea...yo.. imagine the price gouging on race day?


Madness keep us entertained,
Keep em coming
Jp

$500 ....each way
Posted Image

#21 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 15:40

A quick look on Google Maps shows most of New Jersey - or at least Jersey City; I'm no local, but I can't imagine New York being in the background as seen from Newark is Bernie's vision - is made up of rubbish streets. They're all on a north-south grid. There's a few decent-looking bits, but it's all residential. About the only thing I can see as being remotely viable is this:

http://www.gmap-pedo....com/?r=3576214

I'm thinking something like Albert Park. It'd need work, though.

#22 seltaeb

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 16:25

New Jersey would be a rubbish place to hold a GP.

Long Beach would be 100 times better and already has some history. And Long Beach is 100 miles from me ;).

#23 Rob

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:07

We're going to end up with only street circuits in a decade or so. This is getting ridiculous.

When the US has circuits that meet F1 criteria, going to a street circuit is madness.

#24 MellowBob

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:12

No 'Jersey Shore' jokes? I'm impressed!

#25 Louis Siefert

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:22

80-90'S Meadowland's GP... LAMEST RACES EVARR!

hear the car... see chain link distorted blur coming towards you
watch car for 75-200 meters
see same chain link distorted blur moving away from you
hot, sweaty, humid, parking lot, no class, culture or amenities to speak of (sounding better as a probably location the more I describe my experience)
the smell of race fuel overwhelmed with the VOCs peculating from the parking lot bituminous layer

so yeah the nyc backdrop may sound romantic but when you are on the ground, reality quickly sets in...

I will say that peeling off rt 3 into the parking lot running on the course short cutting thru the Meadowlands center to get on rt 120 is a blast before morning rush hour



#26 jaisli

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:36

I know I said in the "NYC Grand Prix" thread that I can't see this idea working because of the environmental concerns that would arise from building the necessary roads and infrastructure in and around Liberty State Park. But the more I think about it, Captain Tightpants' map idea of this local is one of the few places I can think of that might actually work.

It has plenty of room (although a proper road course, similar to the roads around Île Notre-Dame Circuit would have to be constructed and probably at great cost), it has adequate or better road access than any area with views of the city, it's serviced by both road and public transportation, one could even take the Ferry to Manhattan.

I can certainly think of worse places for it to happen. Of course it still doesn't explain who's going to pay for it.

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#27 Antonov

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:50

problem with NYC is that racing is not something highly appreciated there. For instance, there is not even a NASCAR shop there.

#28 Risil

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:51

Street circuits only work for cities without a reputation, who think they deserve one. Long Beach, Monaco and Vancouver were all quite seedy places before they got their Grands Prix.

If New York was such an attractive place for Formula One, why did Watkins Glen go bankrupt in 1980-1?

Without a smart promoter like Chris Pook or Ralph Sanchez, this isn't going to work. Bernie made a mess at Dallas and Phoenix; he needs someone who knows the American markets.

#29 Risil

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 17:53

problem with NYC is that racing is not something highly appreciated there. For instance, there is not even a NASCAR shop there.


Used to be big races on Long Island at Bridgehampton and Roosevelt Raceway. But New York sure as hell hasn't responded to the marketing efforts of NASCAR, Indy, motorcycling, IMSA...

#30 jaisli

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:08

Used to be big races on Long Island at Bridgehampton and Roosevelt Raceway. But New York sure as hell hasn't responded to the marketing efforts of NASCAR, Indy, motorcycling, IMSA...


For an international city, New York is very much a home grown stick and ball sports town. Except for a few weeks every year during the US Open when you hear about Tennis, the local news media rarely reports on any sports outside of football, baseball, basketball and hockey. Car racing never gained a foothold but then again, considering the price of real estate in the NYC area and the general disdain for cars by a large portion of the strap hanger population, it's understandable. That said, NY does have a huge and diverse population. I have no doubt that a properly organized F1 even staged in the area would garner a large attendance. But the cost of staging such an event would be enormous. And I keep coming back to the question of who is going to pay for it. The loss of tax revenue during the recession has just about bankrupt the state of NJ.

Edited by jaisli, 25 March 2010 - 18:09.


#31 aditya-now

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:12

Street circuits only work for cities without a reputation, who think they deserve one. Long Beach, Monaco and Vancouver were all quite seedy places before they got their Grands Prix.

If New York was such an attractive place for Formula One, why did Watkins Glen go bankrupt in 1980-1?

Without a smart promoter like Chris Pook or Ralph Sanchez, this isn't going to work. Bernie made a mess at Dallas and Phoenix; he needs someone who knows the American markets.


Just being in New York for this week (I spend here two months are year) I don´t think you can compare the big apple in any way with the Glen.
New York would always draw a huge audience, just think of all the internationals that are in the city at any point in time.

Going to New York would be handily combined with going to a Grand Prix. It will draw more people than Phoenix, Dallas or Detroit for sure.

Edited by aditya-now, 25 March 2010 - 18:13.


#32 Antonov

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:15

Detroits attendance was always pretty good I think. I remember full stands. Certainly round the pit section.

#33 jonpollak

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:17

Well it must be dead cert now.
Autosport is reporting it...:rotfl:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/82366

Jp

#34 Louis Siefert

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:39

is there any truth that Peter Windsor is going to be the Promoter?

seriously... can anyone believe that all the red tape will be resolved within a year to stage this event
nevermind the corruption and bureaucracy Hudson county is renowned for

#35 Lazarus II

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:50

is there any truth that Peter Windsor is going to be the Promoter?

seriously... can anyone believe that all the red tape will be resolved within a year to stage this event
nevermind the corruption and bureaucracy Hudson county is renowned for

Agreed. There will be plenty of payouts if they are going to run anytime soon....even 2012.

The Port Authority alone will demand what would amount to a sizable chunk of the Kennedy family fortune. Longshoreman's Union.....forget about it.

#36 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 18:58

Check post No. 47 on this thread:

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4237896

Edited by BrokenBaculum, 25 March 2010 - 19:03.


#37 Louis Siefert

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:01

Check post No. 47 on this thread:

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4237896


the NIMBY quotient is astronomical in the location :|

but the layout is great :clap:


#38 Scudetto

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:19

Agreed. There will be plenty of payouts if they are going to run anytime soon....even 2012.

The Port Authority alone will demand what would amount to a sizable chunk of the Kennedy family fortune. Longshoreman's Union.....forget about it.


Never mind the Port Authority, the site is a state park and subject to all of Jersey's conservation and environmental legislation and red tape. Besides that, an event there would have to appease the Friends of Liberty State Park, which has an interior plan for the park which would appear at odds with the thought of hosting a GP there.

#39 Enkei

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:23

After the last farces at Indianapolis, what makes Bernie think the yanks would agree to a GP in NYC?

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#40 solochamp07

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 19:23

Waste of time. If you're going to race cars around city streets in the US there is only one possible venue.

#41 One

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 21:48

Floyd Bennett Field is kind of interesting as well.

at 15km you wil not see Manhattan skyline, but you are facing good bay and islands.

#42 Junfansoto

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 14:53

This topic brings back a lot of memories.

I was working for the City of New York (as in Municipal Government, Koch and then Dinkins administrations), and was more or less within the same working circles as some of the people that were dealing with the "NY Grand Prix" idea. At the time (mid-1980s), the biggest thing was having the race around Flushing Meadows park: http://en.wikipedia...., which would have been the perfect place, IMHO. I don't think there are many people here or elsewhere who can imagine just how close this came to happening. I used to live in Elmhurst, NY, which is a part of Queens, actually within bicycle distance to the park, and can tell you that a race there would have rivaled Montreal as far as how challenging and spectacular the track itself would have been. The buzz was that the Queens Borough President and the Chamber or Commerce were practically salivating at the prospect, as well as Parks and Recreation, the MTA (subways) and Taxi and Limousine Commission. There would have been plenty of space for all of the support infrastructure and the track is almost literally a stone's throw from La Guardia Airport and a relatively painless drive to JFK on the Van Wyck (for those familiar with the area). Public Transportation is already plentiful, and in those days it was easier to task more of these resources to gladly support the influx of people (read: $$$ in Municipal-speak). It was conservatively expected to raise about $11 million, which in 1985 dollars would have been some pretty nice spare change.

Incredibly enough, what killed the effort were grassroots citizen's groups, which were anchored on two things: Tobacco advertisement and environmental concerns. Nevermind that on the particular week there would have been less of an environmental impact than on a typical week. Concerns were also raised by the nearest community, which was College Point, although again, it would not have been much different than on a typical week, as the nearby Grand Central, LIE, Van Wyck, etc., etc., already generate significant amounts of both noise and air pollution. In one of those "WTFrak" head scratching decisions, actual environmental studies were turned down, IIRC. The tobacco advertising proved to be the sticky point, as none of the parties involved (organizers, the FIA, Parks and Recreation and community) proved flexible on that. Eventually, these groups threatened legal action, and that was pretty much that. I tried as long as I could to find an image of the proposed layout, which I really wish I could've shared.

IMHO, this was a huge feather in the cap for CART, which was going through what I consider its glory years. The race at the Meadowlands was one of those that looked much better on TV than it did in person, and IIRC proved to be exciting. Someone already posted a YouTube clip. I remember Andretti describing one corner in particular as a "character builder," and afterward it was named "Andretti Bend." I still remember Jackie Stewart saying "Mario Andretti overtakes Michael Andretti at Andretti Bend..." :cool: That year, 1988, I had been to Montreal and lapped Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in a rental car (which you could do as long as you were careful not to hit the runners/cyclists and slowed down whenever you saw the authorities) - stole a "30"" sign. Within the week, I found myself driving with some City Officials to a local TV station in Secaucus, New Jersey on a Thursday night. Coming back, trying to get into Rt.3, I made a couple of wrong turns and wound up ON THE TRACK. My companions weren't pleased at looking at all the Marlboro signage next to us in near pitch darkness. I could see the lights of various facilities near the (then) Brendan Byrne Arena (now IZOD Center), and DID take that famous Andretti Bend at a paltry 25MPH on a Ford Taurus. What a couple of weeks! The year before I had been to a Sony event at a local nightclub, and met Mario Andretti and Danny Sullivan. Contrary to some accounts, Mr. Andretti couldn't have been nicer, and I had a long exchange with Danny Sullivan about his 360 at Indy in '85 and his time with Tyrrell (which he loves to talk about, apparently).

Next was a proposed race downtown: http://www.nytimes.c...ml?pagewanted=1 It was 1990 and I wasn't as privy of the details this time around, but the idea was to have the cars race through the famous "Canyon of Heroes" (Broadway in Lower Manhattan), hang a left then a right past the the World Trade Center and the Millenium Hotel (a spectacular structure back then) and use part of the West Side Highway and Church Street. Again, I wish I could've found a layout. IIRC, the main, seemingly insurmountable obstacle was logistics, and the unwillingness of businesses to effectively shut down Downtown for the better part of a week. In my experience, it seems that a street race through New York City is an entirely different animal to gestate than Monaco or Long Beach...

Enter the Meadowlands again. I think there's a pretty good chance of a motor race (of some kind, at least) happening there now. Consider that the area has and still is changing a great deal, and is no longer that football stadium and hockey arena stuck on top of Jimmy Hoffa in the middle of nowhere. Access (public transportation or otherwise) has undergone considerable and expensive revisions, and there's talk of turning the gargantuan Xanadu center (which was going to be one of the largest retail/entertainment centers in the US, a la Mall of America) into a Hotel/Casino complex. For better or worse, this would mean that the pretty and somewhat Bahrain-esque extravagant structures would already be there for a track to snake around through, and as far as I could tell (I drive past the site everyday now) old Andretti Bend and those other" character-building" corners still stand. Teterboro Airport, already used to private jet traffic, is close by - and Newark Liberty could handle most of the big stuff. While not as convenient to Midtown Manhattan as Flushing would've been, it's still pretty close and traffic on the George Washington Bridge going against rush hour is not all that bad :| Another thing to remember is that a race is NYC/NJ would not be the same as a race in "Middle America," as the NY Metro Area is much more of an international venue than other places where a particular sport or culture dominate. You'd think the World Cup final was on around here with the amount of people that came to see The New York Red Bulls play Santos FC last week...and that was soccer.

Of course, there's practically no chance of this happening unless a special dispensation is considered, as I can't think of any entity that would agree to pay the exorbitant amounts of cash being asked for just to host the race. Here it's about what a race can do for the town, not the other way around. Much more foresight is needed, than has so far been displayed, to realize just how profitable this could be in the long run, for all involved.

But we can still hope...

Edited by Junfansoto, 26 March 2010 - 18:29.


#43 Rinehart

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 14:58

If the US want to compete with the likes of Singapore and Abu Dhabi in terms of 'global brand image' then a NYC race makes a lot of sense. And this is the primary reason why governments invest in holding races. NOT to make cash out of holding the race itself!!!

But the purists choice would be somewhere like Long Beach.

#44 Junfansoto

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:09

If the US want to compete with the likes of Singapore and Abu Dhabi in terms of 'global brand image' then a NYC race makes a lot of sense. And this is the primary reason why governments invest in holding races. NOT to make cash out of holding the race itself!!!

But the purists choice would be somewhere like Long Beach.


Unfortunately, it works the other way around here.
"The US" has little interest in competing in that sense, as there is little perceived need (rightly or wrongly) to enhance its "global brand image."
It's more Formula One needing to do something about it, and considering the US market to be significant to the effort.

#45 Louis Siefert

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:16

I do vividly remember the Flushing park proposal and the battles that surround it
nice piece to share and seeing the layout would be most welcome

the senseless addition below kinda detracts from the professionalism of your post
besides that humor is probably lost on a younger generation and non- tri-state area inhabitants
and European majority that frequent these boards

I will search thru my archives (junk) for an article about the proposal

and is no longer that football stadium and hockey arena stuck on top of Jimmy Hoffa in the middle of nowhere.


welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your personal experience

#46 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 15:17

Great reading Junfansoto! Appreciate the insight.

#47 One

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 16:39

1.3 mile track, that sounds like a short GP, or make it over 140 laps?

It is a a great story, thanx for sharing Junfansoto.

I do think that NIMBY can make a lot more fuss about it.

What about this harbor area neat State Liberty Park? er... endless choices that lads to nowhere?

#48 Risil

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 17:15

besides that humor is probably lost on a younger generation and non- tri-state area inhabitants
and European majority that frequent these boards


Come on, if our Teamster friend made it onto The Simpsons he's fair game for an international board. :lol:

Incidentally, some track layouts for Junfansoto and others (I'm sure someone can translate this onto Google Maps if they're that way inclined):

Two proposals for the Queens race

And this is the layout for the embryonic CART event in Manhattan in 1993. Given the way F1 and CART were generally competing for the same turf in America (witness the Glen (kinda), Caesar's Palce, Long Beach, Detroit, Meadowlands), it's entirely possible that the F1 circuit might've followed a similar path.

And JFS: the European Grand Prix in 1985 (where Nige got his first win), was organised by Brands Hatch at six weeks notice. That gives some idea of how close the New York Grand Prix was to fruition.

#49 gm914

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 18:06

Floyd Bennett Field is kind of interesting as well.

at 15km you wil not see Manhattan skyline, but you are facing good bay and islands.

I remember a few years ago when all the hoopla that surrounded the West Side Highway Jets Stadium proposal (turned down),
and the 2012 Olympic Bid (turned down), NASCAR put its feelers out to build a track either in Staten Isl. or Brooklyn's
Floyd Bennett Field.

Both proposals were kyboshed pretty NY minute quick.
One of the main reasons?

Local residents, the controversial use of eminent domain.

Its the same reason we've had nearly a decade worth of stalling over Ratners (now sold to some Russian billionaire) dream of bringing
the Nets to Brooklyn.

Little old ladies with a dozen cats sitting in rent controlled apartments seem to have a stronghold over this city! Bah!!

Come on Marty Markowitz, get us a Brooklyn GP.

He's just the man that may make it happen....

I certainly don't want a NewYorkGP that takes place in New Jersey. Its as stupid as the NYJets/Giants not even playing in their home State. Well, until they play The Bills. :drunk:

And we should never have let the 'dodgers go to Cali. :cry: Brooklyn would be a vastly different city.

Edited by gm914, 26 March 2010 - 18:11.


#50 arknor

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 18:22

bernie would have a race in a giant boxing ring promoted by don king if he thought there were money in it for his back pocket.