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New Jersey GP? [merged]


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#51 Junfansoto

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 18:37

Hey! I was a Teamster!! Mostly because of my Civil Service title back then, but still you wouldn't believe the Hoffa jokes Teamsters themselves can concoct... :)

Wow, thanks everyone, and Risil for the circuit layouts!
gm914 - coincidentally, my wife works for Forest City Ratner Real Estate, and was at the ground breaking for the Atlantic Yards project. When Xanadu stalled in the Meadowlands, it seemed to give the Yards some momentum, in spite of their ongoing legal battles in the middle of this economic crisis. Now the ground-breaking happened in Bklyn, just like that there's talk of converting the Meadowlands into "Atlantic City North." A GP in Brooklyn (especially using that Grand Army Plaza area) would be great for us romantic types, but Jersey would probably "sit on pole" as far as that's concerned.

Trivia: Danny Sullivan was actually a NYC cabbie for a while (though I suspect many here already knew that!).
Liberty State Park - nice Manhattan backdrop, but very little chance for a race there, IMHO.
Floyd Bennet Field - Brooklynites among you already know it as a favorite venue for R/C racing enthusiasts. That would be a nice place for a permanent track, but it seems a little out of the way from Manhattan. Convenient to JFK, though.

:up:

Edited by Junfansoto, 26 March 2010 - 18:48.


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#52 pacwest

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 18:58

New Yorkers love a party. They like anything with international flair. My wife is from NYC and she says the town will eat this up. This is not the breadbasket of America or the bible belt. These people embrace anything that is European, chic or just plain fun. But if you have it in NJ no one (in great numbers) from NYC will be too interested oddly.

I however am of the ilk that if the race doesn't take place on Manhattan and or potentially cross a bridge it will "look" crappy. Imagine for one second the helicopter HD cameras following a 300kph car through the skyscrapers, looking down. Brilliant. Only thing that sucks is that it can't be a night race, timezone is all wrong for TV.

Indy or Laguna. Anything else has to be just smashing to work. NJGP with tiny buildings in the background will be shite.

#53 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 19:22

NJGP with tiny buildings in the background will be shite.


I don't think this is any worse than looking at Montreal from circuit Gilles Villeneneuve.

Posted Image

If you're already IN the city, a race or anything else in the city is great. If you're not, getting in (and out) is and always has been a PITA.

#54 zlev

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 19:29

Best bet would be on the east end of Long Island. Lots of space to build a track and not a lot of traffic. Plus, it is a very rich area and they can build it near the water if they want. Being from LI myself I'd be there in a heartbeat, probably stay out there for the entire weekend actually. New Jersey, on the other hand, is a complete dump. A race in NJ near NYC would be a huge mistake for it is a complete cesspool. Northern NJ would be a better bet.

#55 jaisli

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 19:59

Best bet would be on the east end of Long Island. Lots of space to build a track and not a lot of traffic. Plus, it is a very rich area and they can build it near the water if they want. Being from LI myself I'd be there in a heartbeat, probably stay out there for the entire weekend actually. New Jersey, on the other hand, is a complete dump. A race in NJ near NYC would be a huge mistake for it is a complete cesspool. Northern NJ would be a better bet.


A. Indeed, the photo above looks like a complete dump and a cesspool, doesn't it. :rolleyes: I know this is an ingrained stereotype that people from Long Island believe but there's really very little truth to it.
B. Bridgehamptom Race Track out in Watermill couldn't keep functioning during the 80s because of too many complaints from Rich East Enders. I'm not sure why anybody would possibly think that you could build a race track out there now-a-days? If anything, the situation has become even worse. It's like suggesting they tear down a few shopping complexes and put up a horse track. Maybe even call it Roosevelt Raceway. :cool:
C. Getting that many people (not to mention the teams and equipment) out to the end of the Island would be even a worse nightmare than it usually is. If the teams complain about the traffic on the Bosphorus Bridge in Istanbul, wait until they're sitting on the LIE after Friday Free practice.

Bernie wants 'views' of Manhattan. If he doesn't get that, he might as well go somewhere where there's ALREADY a track.


#56 Rob

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 21:22

A Grand Prix in New York that isn't at Watkins Glen is blasphemy.

#57 Junfansoto

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 22:09

Best bet would be on the east end of Long Island. Lots of space to build a track and not a lot of traffic. Plus, it is a very rich area and they can build it near the water if they want. Being from LI myself I'd be there in a heartbeat, probably stay out there for the entire weekend actually. New Jersey, on the other hand, is a complete dump. A race in NJ near NYC would be a huge mistake for it is a complete cesspool. Northern NJ would be a better bet.


Let's be honest. If you have it on the east end of Long Island, you might as well just have it at Watkins Glen. The Glen is a classic, but it would no longer be a "NYC" race, and neither would it be out in Long Island. Jersey City (where Liberty State Park is located), Hoboken, etc., are pretty much boroughs of NYC, for all practical purposes. The "not a lot of traffic" bit on your post has to be taken with a large grain of salt, especially if you know what it's like to travel the LIE from NYC whenever there's any kind of special event out there.

I've lived in NYC since 1987, and was dragged kicking and screaming accross the river into Jersey City by my wife, who wanted room for my kid. Believe me, I had the typical New Yorker attitude towards NJ (and still do, thruth be told). But the "complete cesspool/dump" comments indicate a lot of ignorance on your part. :down:

Edited by Junfansoto, 26 March 2010 - 22:11.


#58 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 22:16

A little O/T, but, like when Wolfmother opened for Melbourne, we could get Coheed and Cambria to open a NY/NJ Grand Prix.

That'd be awesome. :)

#59 gm914

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 23:11

Uh, if its in New Jersey the lineup will be Bon Jovi &/or Springsteen. You know it. :rolleyes:


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#60 Neophiliac

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 02:35

Fun discussion! I always dream about having a race in Central Park when I bike there - using most of the outside loop's existing road. Sights wise, it'd be a lot like old Hockenheim through the woods, except with no run-off areas, and location wise it couldn't be beat. New Yorkers would show up in droves given the glamour that always surrounds F1. But I'd just as happily settle for a race in NJ within sights of Manhattan. If NYC really wanted to do it, they could re-develop Greenpoint's Navy Yards or other generally deteriorated areas of Brooklyn along the East River (e.g., somewhere near Red Hook) for F1 purposes - then you could watch the race from Manhattan or Brooklyn Bridge (imagine that!) or from one of the skyscrapers downtown.

Unfortunately though, I suspect that neither Mike Bloomberg nor anyone in Jersey has the extra dough to dedicate to circuit development. So it remains a bit of a pipe dream.

#61 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 March 2010 - 05:05

If New York was such an attractive place for Formula One, why did Watkins Glen go bankrupt in 1980-1?

Watkins Glen is a five hour drive from NYC in the most ideal of conditions. Not quite reachable by mass transit, I'm afraid.

#62 snafu

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 03:32

A Grand Prix in New York that isn't at Watkins Glen is blasphemy.

a grand prix in NY that isn't at Road America is blasphemy

#63 snafu

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 03:35

If Bernie wants to stage a street race in New York, how does he accomplish that by running it in New Joyzie?

This will be the 1st time Bernie get's fleeced, he'll have to pay so many kick backs and protection money :rotfl:

#64 boomer1

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 03:42

I went to the recent PGA Tour event at Liberty National and the views of NY were awesome. Anything remotely similar would be great for F1 and for the area, even if most people who live there have no clue that Formula 1 and IndyCar are different things.

Of course, it's not going to happen. Just another Bernie brainstorm that gets picked up by the press and run with like Jim Brown because that's what happens every time Bernie opens his mouth.

#65 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 04:08

a grand prix in NY that isn't at Road America is blasphemy

A Grand Prix in New York that is at Road America isn't a Grand Prix in New York.

#66 loki

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 06:04

the senseless addition below kinda detracts from the professionalism of your post
besides that humor is probably lost on a younger generation and non- tri-state area inhabitants
and European majority that frequent these boards


I thought it was funny and there are plenty of people outside NJ/NY that think the same that could care less about what the kids or some folks from Europe think about it.


#67 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:55

details: http://www.f1fanatic...t-race-in-2012/



#68 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:01

FOM to do:

Planning, developing, logistics, marketing, and all necessary preparations to effectively carry out
the event.
Structures for media center, paddock and VIP areas, temporary meeting rooms, security control
tower, pit areas, team facilities, clubs, visitor welcome center, hospitality tent, and all other
necessary structures.
Providing ample portable facilities for visitors.
Obtaining all the necessary permits and licenses required to hold the event.
All equipment needed to stage the race as well as staffing.

That is already a multi million USD works. I assume that officials likes the idea. The park is in between the industrial zone, therefore I am purely assuming that the officials may settle somewhere with protesting locals. Not too sure what officials would have to pay to get event settled there, besides this locals.

FOM to promote the race event, prepare the structure, pay the rent and all the ticket income to the FOM. No negotiation with anybody except a one week ret of the ground...

Edited by One, 04 May 2010 - 10:33.


#69 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:05

A race on the east coast?

I'll take it. :clap:

#70 Hacklerf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:06

Id go to a NJ GP

#71 noikeee

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:08

I like it, it flows naturally without a single straight, that is very unique in the context of current F1. Unfortunately it makes for impossible overtaking as well.

#72 Disgrace

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:10

No more street circuits!

#73 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:30

No more street circuits!

It's not a street circuit. It follows the roads in Liberty State Park, but they're probably too narrow to host the race and will need to be re-built. Plus, there are large sections that do not follow the roads at all.

#74 noikeee

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:35

Yeah it seems more of a half-purpose-built half-previously-existant park circuit, like Melbourne and Montreal.

Looking at it again I think they're cramming a bit too many turns into it in a section of the track, I have a simple idea to improve that layout which would make it much faster, but I'm not going to load up MS Paint here at work, maybe later.

And like the F1 Fanatic article said... where exactly are they planning to build a pitlane, there is no space for one? Seems like a bit of a preliminary idea, not really a serious "plan".

#75 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:36

All works sounds like a temporary deal. Perhaps it gets MUCH easier permit because it is TEMPORARY structure that they will be putting up.



Never anything is temporary tho.

#76 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:36

Yeah it seems more of a half-purpose-built half-previously-existant park circuit, like Melbourne and Montreal.

Looking at it again I think they're cramming a bit too many turns into it in a section of the track, I have a simple idea to improve that layout which would make it much faster, but I'm not going to load up MS Paint here at work, maybe later.

And like the F1 Fanatic article said... where exactly are they planning to build a pitlane, there is no space for one? Seems like a bit of a preliminary idea, not really a serious "plan".


Pit lane is parallel to the yacht habour.

#77 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:37

It's not a street circuit. It follows the roads in Liberty State Park, but they're probably too narrow to host the race and will need to be re-built. Plus, there are large sections that do not follow the roads at all.


the current roads are appauling, just have a look yourself on google streetview. they will have to replace almost all of them. the view could be quite nice however:
http://maps.google.c...77.084,76.785,0

#78 Gyan

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:37

This will make it 5 street circuits.My limit has always been 3.It's far exceeding it now and that's why I don't want a street race.

Anways,The first sector and the third sector look good,but the middle section is going to be horribly slow.I can just see 1 overtaking opportunity...maybe two at a stretch but you can't really do much in a crowded square piece of land.

Here's my shot at it.

Posted Image

Edited by Gyan, 04 May 2010 - 10:56.


#79 tkulla

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:01

I would LOVE this... not far from Rhode Island at all. Could be a couple of busy weekends in a row for me if this is back to back with Montreal. :)

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#80 gwk

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:21

A night race on the US east coast would air at midnight to two AM in Europe. So, no night race.

#81 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:21

from the autosport article:

Sam Pesin, head of the Friends' board of trustees, told local newspaper the Jersey Journal: "Once you have a track there, and especially with the state's finances, there would be such pressure on the state to have regular car racing there. You'd end up having the name changed from Liberty State Park to Liberty Race Track."


so basically they agree that there is enough support from consumers for the race, making building a track an viable option.

#82 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:30

No t is the other way round, A lot of locals hates to see the park permanently becoming the Race track of the Metropolitan Area.

#83 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:33

Gyan, Kinda look a like of Donnington. ;-)

#84 johnmhinds

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:35

from the autosport article:


so basically they agree that there is enough support from consumers for the race, making building a track an viable option.


No, what they are saying is they think the state will want to use the track all year round as a tourist trap.

Which will cheapen the whole involvement of F1 IMO.

#85 jaisli

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:43

Well, I've got to hand it to Captain Tightpants. He sure nailed this one when guessing at the locale. :clap: Well done.

As a NJ resident, I'm going to write to the Mayor of Jersey City and express my support! :up:

#86 Gyan

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:48

Gyan, Kinda look a like of Donnington. ;-)


Nothing like the old layout,but similar to the new proposed one. :D

#87 UPRC

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:19

I really like this idea, really.

Would there be a view of the Statue of Liberty and such?

#88 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:23

Pit lane is parallel to the yacht habour.

Makes sense. Looking at the plans, it's pretty obvious the circuit has to be outside the circuit rather than inside.

the current roads are appauling, just have a look yourself on google streetview. they will have to replace almost all of them. the view could be quite nice however:
http://maps.google.c...77.084,76.785,0

That just proves my point: it won't be a street circuit.

A night race on the US east coast would air at midnight to two AM in Europe. So, no night race.

Who says the night race has to appease European audiences? Bernie Ecclestone might like it, but the final decision rests with circuit organisers - after all, Australia rejected a night race proposal despite Ecclestone pushing for it.

so basically they agree that there is enough support from consumers for the race, making building a track an viable option.

They're agreeing in principle, but they're opposing it.

Would there be a view of the Statue of Liberty and such?

That's the entire point of having the circuit there - Bernie Ecclestone wants the race to have a view of Manhattan if he can't have the race in Manhattan itself.

#89 skid solo

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:26

It will never happen :cool:

#90 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:28

Officials will NOT be PR'ing if it will NEVER be there. So it is a matter of time.

#91 UPRC

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:30

I just looked at Google Maps. I still like the idea, but it really looks as if they'll need to do quite a bit of work on those roads. It certainly does look like the best area for a race in the area, at least.

#92 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:50

Just re-read the article on F1 Fanatic, and picked up on this line that I missed earlier:

The organisers point out this is just a preliminary idea for a circuit.

The more I think on it, the more I believe that the Powers That Be are going to have issues with those corners down the bottom of the circuit. There's simply no room for run-off, and there's more than one point where a car leaving the circuit could enter the run-off area on the outside of another corner. You could make the argument that they're pushing for a street circuit design, but given the width the circuit would have to be, all you'd have separating one part of the circuit from the other is some armco and safety fencing. And if a car crashed heavily there, it would compromise safety in the entire section.

And according to GP Update - never the most reliable of sources - the proposalis outlining two possible routes: the pink and the purple. I admit I was wondering why there were two lines because the regular streets of Jersey City are left in white on the plan, but I never thought it might be a second proposed route. There is still hope.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 04 May 2010 - 12:52.


#93 Fastcake

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:51

Well that could be a rather nice location, good view, whether the race track would be any good is another matter. Hopefully if this is being seriously considered there will be a few more detailed mock-ups.

#94 jaisli

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:00

I think this quote from the F1Fanatic.co.uk article sums it up.

The organisers also expect Formula One Management to do a lot of the work including:

Planning, developing, logistics, marketing, and all necessary preparations to effectively carry out
the event.
Structures for media center, paddock and VIP areas, temporary meeting rooms, security control
tower, pit areas, team facilities, clubs, visitor welcome center, hospitality tent, and all other
necessary structures.
Providing ample portable facilities for visitors.
Obtaining all the necessary permits and licenses required to hold the event.
All equipment needed to stage the race as well as staffing.

It would be unusual for FOM to get so deeply involved with creating and running a race. But after 40 years of trying to get a race in New York perhaps Bernie Ecclestone is prepared to give a little more to get what he wants. On the other hand, it may just be a very optimistic plan.


My biggest concern all along is who is going to pay for the event. And despite what the article says, I just have my doubts that Bernie will dig into his own pockets to fund it. It would be one thing putting up $5~$10 million for promotional purposes or devoting a lot of his time to try and make it happen. But between permits, construction, improvements, etc, we're talking in excess of $100,000,000.00 to make this race a reality.

And then there are the 'Green Brigade' from Friends of Liberty State Park, who are already causing the mayor to make such cool statements as...

"This was a response to an overture made by Formula 1, and Jersey City is one of several cities they are pursuing. There have been a few, preliminary conversations and this is very much in the exploratory phase. However, this may not be something that is in the best interest of Jersey City or Liberty State Park."


Ouch. Don't forget, the 'Friends' are the same group who vigorously shot down a proposal for a small 911 memorial at the edge of the park in the line of sight where the Twin Towers once stood, on the basis that it would "ruin the aesthetic nature of the park". They must be hyperventilating over this. :lol:

I think somebody needs to send the mayor a calm and rational letter, asking him to explore the example of Île Notre-Dame in Montreal, two weeks before and a week after the F1 race leaves town, for proof that a big event can be held in LSP and the park can remain the sanctuary it is.

Edited by jaisli, 04 May 2010 - 15:17.


#95 Fastcake

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:04

Just re-read the article on F1 Fanatic, and picked up on this line that I missed earlier:

The more I think on it, the more I believe that the Powers That Be are going to have issues with those corners down the bottom of the circuit. There's simply no room for run-off, and there's more than one point where a car leaving the circuit could enter the run-off area on the outside of another corner. You could make the argument that they're pushing for a street circuit design, but given the width the circuit would have to be, all you'd have separating one part of the circuit from the other is some armco and safety fencing. And if a car crashed heavily there, it would compromise safety in the entire section.

And according to GP Update - never the most reliable of sources - the proposalis outlining two possible routes: the pink and the purple. I admit I was wondering why there were two lines because the regular streets of Jersey City are left in white on the plan, but I never thought it might be a second proposed route. There is still hope.

I agree, that lower section will never be allowed, far to complex and unsafe. I suspect (hope) there will be some sort of amalgamation of the two, perhaps having the lower street section as the pink track, and the upper as the more flowing curved purple track. Just my first thoughts.

#96 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:11

I agree, that lower section will never be allowed, far to complex and unsafe. I suspect (hope) there will be some sort of amalgamation of the two, perhaps having the lower street section as the pink track, and the upper as the more flowing curved purple track. Just my first thoughts.

I actually think the "pink" proposal is a little boring. It could do with a few sweeping corners. Keep the same basic shape, but get some really quick stuff in there. I also like the stuff on the "purple" proposal near the science centre (the western edge); I think an exaggerated section across the back - once again, the same basic shape, but with bigger corners - would do it will.

#97 rmac923

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:37

I just thought of a major flaw with a NY-centered USGP. If they run the race in June (to coincide with the Canadian GP), they're gonna be in direct conflict with Nascar. June is when Nascar visits both Dover and Pocono, both within (give-or-take) 100 miles of NYC. That will certainly impact the turnout, especially with F1's bad reputation in the U.S.

The (easy?) solution would be to move the North American rounds Late September/Early October, similar to the 1970's. Of course, this could cause a major schedule shuffle to accommodate this.

#98 Messi10

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:39

Nobody in NYC knows any thing about cars there is little to no parking and 95% or more of the people don't own a car they use cabs.bus,or subway to get around.

nyc is composed of 5 boroughs. The people who live in Manhattan make up less than 20 percent of the city's population. Manhattan is for the most part a workplace where most people who commute there on a daily basis lives outside Manhattan and do so by using public transportation however 48 percent of New Yorkers own a car.

this is probably the same as any other big metropolis and has nothing to do with not knowing about cars or if this should be factor when considering hosting a gp in this city.

#99 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:43

The (easy?) solution would be to move the North American rounds Late September/Early October, similar to the 1970's. Of course, this could cause a major schedule shuffle to accommodate this.

Jersey won't be on the calendar until 2012, if it makes it at all. It's a schedule change, but there's plenty of time to arrange it.

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#100 Owen

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:47

There seems to be a mistake. It's New Joysy. Not New Jersey.