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New Jersey GP? [merged]


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#101 Messi10

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 13:50

I just thought of a major flaw with a NY-centered USGP. If they run the race in June (to coincide with the Canadian GP), they're gonna be in direct conflict with Nascar. June is when Nascar visits both Dover and Pocono, both within (give-or-take) 100 miles of NYC. That will certainly impact the turnout, especially with F1's bad reputation in the U.S.

The (easy?) solution would be to move the North American rounds Late September/Early October, similar to the 1970's. Of course, this could cause a major schedule shuffle to accommodate this.

totally different audience. When you start traveling more than 30 miles inland from NYC you end up in these rural areas that resemble towns in North Carolina .
I think that a gp in NYC would be similar to the Montreal gp were tourists and travelers make up a big chunk of those in attendance. On any given weekeday there are thousands of people who come here on business from all over the world, it would be a perfect opportunity for those people to extend their stay for the weekend to attend the race or make it part of a business sponsored event.

Edited by Messi10, 04 May 2010 - 13:53.


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#102 miniman

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 14:01

This whole thing is a trial balloon launched by BE to get the best possible deal out of another site, Indy, most probably.

F1 will never happen in the NY metro area.

NIMBY


#103 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 14:13

It's nice to dream, but it will never happen.

#104 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 14:54

Then again, Jersey City government has been very pliable to developers with cash in the past, so if there is one place that can overpower the NIMBY sentiment in the NYC area, Jersey City would probably be it. I still think it's a long shot at best, though.

#105 lifelong

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:05

I just thought of a major flaw with a NY-centered USGP. If they run the race in June (to coincide with the Canadian GP), they're gonna be in direct conflict with Nascar. June is when Nascar visits both Dover and Pocono, both within (give-or-take) 100 miles of NYC. That will certainly impact the turnout, especially with F1's bad reputation in the U.S.

The (easy?) solution would be to move the North American rounds Late September/Early October, similar to the 1970's. Of course, this could cause a major schedule shuffle to accommodate this.


In late September or October you'll be in direct conflict with the NFL, College Football, and MLB playoffs, so not only will nobody turn out, nobody will even bother to watch it on TV.

#106 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:07

The biggest obstacle seems to be the Friends of Liberty State Park, who seem to be making noises simply because they weren't consulted. Seriously, if someone explains to them what Formula 1 does in Montreal and in Melbourne with a semi-permanent facility that can be built as needed, they'd have no reason to object. The roads would get a massive upgrade and one of the most famous parts of American history - the first place immigrants landed - will be the focus of a major international sporting event.

But no, the FoLSP seem to exist purely to be NIMBYs.

#107 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:10

Why do the roads need a massive upgrade, as far as park advocates are concerned? Two lanes is plenty inside a park, it's supposed to have greenery inside it, not highways.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 04 May 2010 - 15:10.


#108 rmac923

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:12

In late September or October you'll be in direct conflict with the NFL, College Football, and MLB playoffs, so not only will nobody turn out, nobody will even bother to watch it on TV.


You know, I didn't even bother to think of this...

That certainly voids my idea.

#109 jaisli

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:25

The biggest obstacle seems to be the Friends of Liberty State Park, who seem to be making noises simply because they weren't consulted. Seriously, if someone explains to them what Formula 1 does in Montreal and in Melbourne with a semi-permanent facility that can be built as needed, they'd have no reason to object.


Oh trust me--they'd find reason to object. You could propose ANYTHING and that lot would find reason to object.

Either way, I still say the larger issue at hand is WHO is going to pay for everything. The Jersey City Proposal suggests that the FOM should pay for, Planning, developing, logistics, marketing, structures for media center, paddock, VIP areas, temporary meeting rooms, security control tower, pit areas, team facilities, clubs, visitor welcome center, hospitality tent and all other necessary structures, provide ample portable facilities for visitors and obtaining the necessary permits, licenses and equipment." No where in the article does it describe the FOM's acceptance, let alone their reaction to this proposal. I have visions of Bernie spitting his coffee all over the table while reading it, before turning a deep shade of red and then purple. :lol:

Does anybody seriously think that the FOM is going to cover these costs?

#110 Xpat

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:26

It could work out real good.

1. Bernie gets $ from the Sopranos.
2. Bernie puts on a race.
3. Bernie tries to squeeze out more $ from NJ.
4. Silvio takes Bernie for a ride into the woods...
5. No more Bernie.

win-win

#111 Messi10

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 15:55

.......
Does anybody seriously think that the FOM is going to cover these costs?

I have no idea, but I will not have any objection if they decided to do so.



#112 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 16:56

Does anybody seriously think that the FOM is going to cover these costs?

What would the GP cost? track surface, pitbuilding, mediacal and safety stuff, the works. 100 million? What does it cost for melbourne to build and break it down every year?
If he pays the bill he will recieve the benefits as well, tickets & consumption is worth what? 15million/year?
Going to New York can do wonders for marketing of the sport in the US.
He probably promised the FOTA a US GP, so maybe he has to do something.



#113 Louis Siefert

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 17:43

it reads a bit amateurish... rings of a fans proposal more than a document prepared by a legal department

who exactly is "director of tourism for Destination Jersey City" and are they an officially sanctioned office, or is it the variety of "Friends for Jersey City" coalition?

#114 MinT

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 17:46

Why dont they just hold one in Florida then they could have Mickey Mouse there in person.

#115 Lazarus II

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 17:49

Why do the roads need a massive upgrade, as far as park advocates are concerned? Two lanes is plenty inside a park, it's supposed to have greenery inside it, not highways.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
♪♫ Sing Along ♪♫
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swinging hot spot
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot

They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
And then they charged all the people twenty-five bucks just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot

Hey farmer, farmer, put away your DDT now
Give me spots on my apples but leave me the birds and the bees, please
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot

Late last night I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi carried off my old man
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot


#116 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:00

Why dont they just hold one in Florida then they could have Mickey Mouse there in person.


:lol:

I think this is all very preliminary anyway... I'm sure it's not serious enough yet for Bernie to use as a bargaining tool to threaten others who might be in danger of losing their GP... until then we can smile and watch things evolve.

Bernie has people lining up with money who are actually building stuff and doing everything they can to get a race (the fact those places basically suck has almost nothing to do with it), NYC/USA isn't on that list. Bernie WANTS them on that list, which might easily not happen in his lifetime...

Edited by Slowinfastout, 04 May 2010 - 18:02.


#117 hulmerist

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:01

so they wanna hold this one at night...when most europeans will be asleep...

GOOD IDEA GUYS

#118 Fastcake

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:05

so they wanna hold this one at night...when most europeans will be asleep...

GOOD IDEA GUYS

Yeah I can't see this happening at night.

#119 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:08

:lol:

I think this is all very preliminary anyway... I'm sure it's not serious enough yet for Bernie to use as a bargaining tool to threaten others who might be in danger of losing their GP... until then we can smile and watch things evolve.

Bernie has people lining up with money who are actually building stuff and doing everything they can to get a race (the fact those places basically suck has almost nothing to do with it), NYC/USA isn't on that list. Bernie WANTS them on that list, which might easily not happen in his lifetime...

If Bernie is waiting for the government to pony up, he'll be waiting for a long time when it comes to US. Democracies don't work the same way Middle Eastern countries desperate for prestige do.

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#120 phil1993

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:12

The layout looks worse than Valencia in an area where F1 is less popular.

Why am I not optimistic?

#121 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:18

If Bernie is waiting for the government to pony up, he'll be waiting for a long time when it comes to US. Democracies don't work the same way Middle Eastern countries desperate for prestige do.


Well, Bernie was able to make Montreal/Quebec/Canadian democracies cough up some serious money... but yeah it's a bit different since they pretty much bought back what was stolen from them..

The dynamics are completely different with the US and NYC... but in theory Bernie only needs a couple of well-placed friends to set the wheels in motion, from there the population can be filled up with sh*t and their dollars used to fund a part of the project... we're far from that though..

#122 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:33

There won't be a publicly funded GP in the US. They might get some tax and permitting breaks but there's no way they'll pay infrastructure costs let alone let alone a sanctioning fee.

#123 Anssi

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:41

It's funny how Autosport speaks of New York when this proposal would take a race to New Jersey which, even though it's close, is not New York.

For marketing purposes surely New York is more appealing though. For marketing purposes such a 'minor' detail regarding geography can be ignored, right? :D

#124 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:42

There won't be a publicly funded GP in the US. They might get some tax and permitting breaks but there's no way they'll pay infrastructure costs let alone let alone a sanctioning fee.


I used to believe that as well... but then I saw it happen with the Canadian GP, so I either had to live in denial or accept it's possible, lol..

Again, we are probably far from seeing it actually happening, but you've already got one ingredient with that Jersey Tourism department thing... their equivalents are writing cheques to Bernie in several other places, that's pure government tax money.

#125 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:56

It's funny how Autosport speaks of New York when this proposal would take a race to New Jersey which, even though it's close, is not New York.

For marketing purposes surely New York is more appealing though. For marketing purposes such a 'minor' detail regarding geography can be ignored, right? :D

It's not that inaccurate. That part of Jersey City is practically a borough of New York City.

#126 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:56

The US isn't Canada and these days there is a huge push back on publicly funding private events. For a football or baseball team there might be some concessions but if NASCAR can't get any public/private partnerships pushed through now, F1 isn't going to be able. This isn't an event. It's a four page proposal from the tourism office of a bridge and tunnel suburb of Manhattan. And a poorly written proposal at that. The concessions are in line with what is given other events held on public land. Permitting, fire and police emergency services and ancillary support services. The city isn't in a position to fund anything near what it would take to do the event. Events on that scale happen every week in major metro areas in the US. This is nothing more than a trial balloon at this point.

#127 noikeee

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 18:58

Events on that scale happen every week in major metro areas in the US.


On that scale maybe, but not with that kind of international exposure, surely!

#128 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:03

On that scale maybe, but not with that kind of international exposure, surely!


So? US brands and culture are by far the most exported and prevalent in the history of mankind. F1 needs the US market more than the US market needs F1.


#129 Anssi

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:09

It's not that inaccurate. That part of Jersey City is practically a borough of New York City.



Is it? What do you mean 'practically'? It either is or it is not.

http://en.wikipedia....(New_York_City)

See the picture with the caption "The Five Boroughs of New York City: 1: Manhattan 2: Brooklyn 3: Queens 4: The Bronx 5: Staten Island". The area where the track would be does not seem to be included in that.

#130 jaisli

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:16

Is it? What do you mean 'practically'? It either is or it is not.

http://en.wikipedia....(New_York_City)

See the picture with the caption "The Five Boroughs of New York City: 1: Manhattan 2: Brooklyn 3: Queens 4: The Bronx 5: Staten Island". The area where the track would be does not seem to be included in that.


Ask the New York Jets or New York Giants this question. ;)

#131 noikeee

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:23

So? US brands and culture are by far the most exported and prevalent in the history of mankind. F1 needs the US market more than the US market needs F1.


I know, but if FOM actually invests in this rather than expect the government to fund all of it like usual, it might make sense. The area might already have exposure, but a bit more can't hurt.

#132 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:28

Is it? What do you mean 'practically'? It either is or it is not.

http://en.wikipedia....(New_York_City)

See the picture with the caption "The Five Boroughs of New York City: 1: Manhattan 2: Brooklyn 3: Queens 4: The Bronx 5: Staten Island". The area where the track would be does not seem to be included in that.

I hope this is just a failed attempt at sarcastic joke that came off poorly.

#133 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:33

I know, but if FOM actually invests in this rather than expect the government to fund all of it like usual, it might make sense. The area might already have exposure, but a bit more can't hurt.


I'd agree. I don't think it's a bad thing. I'd go. I think if mostly private money, in the form of FOM or another investor were involved and they could make a good case for the economics, I think they'd have a shot at getting permission for the race.


#134 Brandz07

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:35

looks terrible.

#135 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 19:47

About an hour ago the Jersey City mayor asked the tourism office to withdraw the GP proposal.

http://www.nj.com/hu...lls_for_wi.html

"“After a review of the draft proposal prepared by the City’s Tourism Office, I have come to the same conclusion as Sam Pesin and the Friends of Liberty State Park that this type of event is not suited for Liberty State Park,” Healy said in a statement today."

#136 Anssi

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:00

I hope this is just a failed attempt at sarcastic joke that came off poorly.




Tell us, is it in New York or is it not in New York?

#137 Anssi

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:04

Ask the New York Jets or New York Giants this question.;)



Sports teams from New York practice or play there? That does not make it New York. Many sports teams go to a neighbouring city because they don't have enough field time in their home city (or prefer to choose their practice time more freely). That's normal, and it won't move the borders.

I am not asking for your perception on it, I want facts. It should be easy to answer - it either is in New York or it is not in New York.

Really, guys, I'm interested in how it is officially. That's all. I have no agenda at all to take anything away from New York.

Edited by Anssi, 04 May 2010 - 20:08.


#138 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:11

Really, guys, I'm interested in how it is officially. That's all. I have no agenda at all to take anything away from New York.


You're being pedantic about some imaginary lines on the ground... god knows why..

Pretty much irrelevant now as the Mayor isn't in favor of the project... but hey, it's not the Mayor of New York so there's still hope! (not)

Edited by Slowinfastout, 04 May 2010 - 20:13.


#139 rmac923

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:18

About an hour ago the Jersey City mayor asked the tourism office to withdraw the GP proposal.

http://www.nj.com/hu...lls_for_wi.html

"“After a review of the draft proposal prepared by the City’s Tourism Office, I have come to the same conclusion as Sam Pesin and the Friends of Liberty State Park that this type of event is not suited for Liberty State Park,” Healy said in a statement today."


:mad: <------ Bernie

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#140 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:22

You're being pedantic about some imaginary lines on the ground... god knows why..

Pretty much irrelevant now as the Mayor isn't in favor of the project... but hey, it's not the Mayor of New York so there's still hope! (not)


It's state property and they don't need Jersey City to sign off on it. After reading some this afternoon about the history and the so called Friends of the Park there is a great deal of history with regard to events and development in the park. It's been the decision of the state and to date there has not been a formal application process. The JC local government and tourist board don't seem too terribly sophisticated and this may be Eccelestone using them to ultimately improve his position.


#141 Anssi

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:26

Aha... so wanting to clear up whether the race track would be in New Jersey or in New York is somehow wrong! :lol:


As far as I can tell it would be in New Jersey so therefore it would be incorrect to say it is in New York. If you disagree with this then say so instead of coming up with some smart-ass comments past the point.


I am sure Ecclestone wants to say "New York", as I mentioned, for marketing purposes that's more appealing, I agree.


#142 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:30

It's funny how Autosport speaks of New York when this proposal would take a race to New Jersey which, even though it's close, is not New York.

For marketing purposes surely New York is more appealing though. For marketing purposes such a 'minor' detail regarding geography can be ignored, right? :D


It's still closer than San Marino is to Imola.

#143 lifelong

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:34

About an hour ago the Jersey City mayor asked the tourism office to withdraw the GP proposal.

http://www.nj.com/hu...lls_for_wi.html

"“After a review of the draft proposal prepared by the City’s Tourism Office, I have come to the same conclusion as Sam Pesin and the Friends of Liberty State Park that this type of event is not suited for Liberty State Park,” Healy said in a statement today."


This makes Bernie look like a bush-league idiot. He didn't even get the mayor's buy-in before the story got to this stage?

#144 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:44

As far as I can tell it would be in New Jersey so therefore it would be incorrect to say it is in New York. If you disagree with this then say so instead of coming up with some smart-ass comments past the point.


Of course were one to read the actual proposal they would see that the use of "Jersey City" in the event title specified as "2012 US Grand Prix Jersey City".


#145 Scudetto

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 20:56

Never mind the Port Authority, the site is a state park and subject to all of Jersey's conservation and environmental legislation and red tape. Besides that, an event there would have to appease the Friends of Liberty State Park, which has an interior plan for the park which would appear at odds with the thought of hosting a GP there.


Good to see my crystal ball still works. I'm off to play the lottery.

#146 sblick

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:03

Bernie doesn't want the American market. He purposely chooses stupid and ridiculous "plans" to show the teams he is trying in America and when they don't work he goes back to the teams and says "look they just don't want F1 in America." Thus screwing us Americans out of a race. Hey Bernie here is a plan race at Indy build your product, establish something, show positive effects on a city or region, then put the race out for bid. 150,000 per race at Indy doesn't suck. People came from all over the US for it. It won't be long before someone else will want the race.

#147 Bunchies

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:14

I used to believe that as well... but then I saw it happen with the Canadian GP, so I either had to live in denial or accept it's possible, lol..

Again, we are probably far from seeing it actually happening, but you've already got one ingredient with that Jersey Tourism department thing... their equivalents are writing cheques to Bernie in several other places, that's pure government tax money.


Um, yes, but the United States is THE capitalist nation, and has been seen as such for the better part of a century now. This is a matter for private enterprise. Anything else would be communism. :-p

Edited by Bunchies, 04 May 2010 - 22:15.


#148 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:19

Um, yes, but the United States is THE capitalist nation, and has been seen as such for the better part of a century now. This is a matter for private enterprise. Anything else would be communism. :-p


They have Commie roads and what-not already... that race track could make and nice place to go cycling between GPs, like the circuit Gilles Villeneuve, that great communist cycle lane...

#149 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:21

Bernie doesn't want the American market. He purposely chooses stupid and ridiculous "plans" to show the teams he is trying in America and when they don't work he goes back to the teams and says "look they just don't want F1 in America." Thus screwing us Americans out of a race. Hey Bernie here is a plan race at Indy build your product, establish something, show positive effects on a city or region, then put the race out for bid. 150,000 per race at Indy doesn't suck. People came from all over the US for it. It won't be long before someone else will want the race.



On the backdrop of this scenario we all expecting a huge pressures given to Bernie from the car makers... Like it or not, the car makers are talking none sense, that justifies the Bernie's logic on motor sport, isn't it?

I do hope F1 goes to the Road of America now...

#150 Slowinfastout

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:23

I do hope F1 goes to the Road of America now...


Please, let's pray this never happens... F1 would completely wreck that magnificent circuit in order to make it 'F1-worthy'.. same as with any existing USA circuit bar Indy and street courses..

Think Donington..

You see, Road America is a proper race track... camping spots within the track included:

Posted Image

F1 would destroy all that stuff.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 04 May 2010 - 22:32.