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New Jersey GP? [merged]


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#151 Lights

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:31

I don't know why exactly, but I like this idea. Usually when Bernie wants something, he gets it. Let's wait and see.

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#152 nordschleife

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 22:48

Usually when Bernie wants something, he gets it.


Yes, but what Bernie says isn't always what he wants. Obfuscation, misdirection, straw men, bait and switch, ploys to incite counter actions, etc. not to mention the creeping dementia. Even if you were a fly inside his Maybach the whispers you might hear wouldn't reveal his true intent. He alone knows and that book will never be written.


#153 loki

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 23:33

I don't know why exactly, but I like this idea. Usually when Bernie wants something, he gets it. Let's wait and see.



Ecclestone has no juice over here. Particularly in that part of the country where business deals need to work both ways with some of it perhaps not exactly above board. Not that he's not capable of doing some underhanded things, clearly he has but he doesn't understand the culture and business model of racing in the US. If he wants to play, he's going to have to pay. I think he might be able to work a deal with the state for the park but it's going to cost him a lot more than just renting a park for 5 years worth of races. There have been other events in the park. The Red Bull air races are there this year and there was a concert series that reportedly lost a fair amount. It would take some doing but he's going to have to cut a deal to appease a lot of people if this is to happen. I'd reckon this was a trial balloon and all it cost was throwing Destination Jersey City under the bus. It's interesting that while some of the comments on the local news site are negative, informal polling shows about a 75% approval for the race.

#154 Bunchies

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 23:34

A night race on the US east coast would air at midnight to two AM in Europe. So, no night race.


That's when all the races air here, usually later! Still watch all of em! :wave:

#155 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:28

It's funny how Autosport speaks of New York when this proposal would take a race to New Jersey which, even though it's close, is not New York.

For marketing purposes surely New York is more appealing though. For marketing purposes such a 'minor' detail regarding geography can be ignored, right? :D


Well the New York Jets and the New York Giants both play in the Meadowlands so it's not a stretch at all.

#156 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:57

A night race on the US east coast would air at midnight to two AM in Europe. So, no night race.

Not fair. If it's good enough for Australians to stay awake until 2am for every single race except our own, it should be good enough for Europeans to stay up once.

not to mention the creeping dementia

That's a bit unfair, considering that you're only saying it because you dislike him. Bernie has given no indication of any signs of dementia, and when he attracts negative media attention, it's usually because his quotes have been taken out of conext. When he said he "admired itler", he wasn't talking about the Holocaust and the atrocities the Nazi regime caused. He was talking about the way Hilter was able to rally a crippled Germany and unite them under one leadership - before he started (openly) doing evil things. He was likening the state of the FIA to the state of Germany after the first World War. A very poor analogy, maybe, but he never said he admired Hitler. Only that the FIA needed someone who was a strong and charismatic leader to pull them out of tough times the way Hilter did for Germany.

#157 bourbon

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 05:56

Aha... so wanting to clear up whether the race track would be in New Jersey or in New York is somehow wrong! :lol:


As far as I can tell it would be in New Jersey so therefore it would be incorrect to say it is in New York. If you disagree with this then say so instead of coming up with some smart-ass comments past the point.


I am sure Ecclestone wants to say "New York", as I mentioned, for marketing purposes that's more appealing, I agree.


For people living in America, "New York" and "New Jersey" have the exact same appeal for marketing purposes - and it would be Americans that are mostly being marketed to. We all know that when you say New Joisy, you just mean New York's little storage bin state. :D Seriously, though, it makes no difference at all - it would be in New Jersey, but people in NY can hop over in a flash as there is city to city like access. It is true of a lot of nearby states on the east coast - it isn't that far to NY/NJ by train, especially with the fast train. The WEST COAST (the better coast) SUFFERS YET AGAIN WITHOUT A NEARBY F1. (although we do get Laguna Seca MotoGP and FIM MX race at Glen Helen :D)

Edited by bourbon, 05 May 2010 - 06:03.


#158 Xpat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 06:12

Good to know Bernie didn't admire the Holocaust Hitler just the make the trains run on time Hitler. Swell guy.

I think the main reason he had trouble in the US is that he seems like an extortionist and a weasel. He demands the venue spend tons of money to meet his standards, then he demands they pay him tons of money to race at the track where he asked them to spend tons of money. Then when some third world country waves more money under his nose he pulls up stakes and leaves the first track holding the bag. It is a great way for Bernie to make money but why would you want to do business with him?

If there had been high local support in Indianapolis for keeping the USGP, TG would have worked out a deal. But Bernie showed the city and people he had nothing but contempt for them. The local press was treated like crap so they didn't care if the event continued. I imagine the folks in NJ looked at all that and decided it wasn't worth it.

#159 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 06:35

Good to know Bernie didn't admire the Holocaust Hitler just the make the trains run on time Hitler. Swell guy.

I said it was a bad analogy for Bernie to make. I was using it as an example of the media taking him out of context.

Then when some third world country waves more money under his nose he pulls up stakes and leaves the first track holding the bag. It is a great way for Bernie to make money but why would you want to do business with him?

It's called economics. Simple supply and demand - FOM exists as a business, and the only function of a business is to make money. And it's not as if all of that money goes straight into Bernie's numbered Swiss bank account; a good deal of it goes back to the teams in the form of television rights.

If there had been high local support in Indianapolis for keeping the USGP, TG would have worked out a deal. But Bernie showed the city and people he had nothing but contempt for them. The local press was treated like crap so they didn't care if the event continued.

I think Bernie's approach was more a case of I-don't-care-if-it's-Indianapolis-you're-not-getting-special-treatment. Bernie can't go cutting better deals for one circuit just because it is that circuit. If it does it for one, he has to do it for all (the exception to the rule being Monaco, because it's Monaco), and if he does that, then there will be less money to a) pay off CVC and b) give to the teams. I don't know why people seem to think America is hard done-by simply because it lost a Grand Prix when the aforementioned developing nations can easily afford it more than America can.

I imagine the folks in NJ looked at all that and decided it wasn't worth it.

If the reports of the maor saying no to it are true, then it has nothing to do with Bernie's management and everything to do with NIMBYs.

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#160 jonpollak

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 06:49

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a Grand Prix track


Wait a cotton pickin' minute here...
Jp


#161 wj_gibson

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 06:58

Tell us, is it in New York or is it not in New York?


The lines on the map say it is technically outside the city boundaries, but the majority of the working population crosses the river into Manhattan every day, just as people living in Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island do. It's merely a quirk of imaginary geography that it lies "outside" New York. In reality, it's effectively a suburb.

#162 Xpat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:28

I said it was a bad analogy for Bernie to make. I was using it as an example of the media taking him out of context.


It's called economics. Simple supply and demand - FOM exists as a business, and the only function of a business is to make money. And it's not as if all of that money goes straight into Bernie's numbered Swiss bank account; a good deal of it goes back to the teams in the form of television rights.


I think Bernie's approach was more a case of I-don't-care-if-it's-Indianapolis-you're-not-getting-special-treatment. Bernie can't go cutting better deals for one circuit just because it is that circuit. If it does it for one, he has to do it for all (the exception to the rule being Monaco, because it's Monaco), and if he does that, then there will be less money to a) pay off CVC and b) give to the teams. I don't know why people seem to think America is hard done-by simply because it lost a Grand Prix when the aforementioned developing nations can easily afford it more than America can.


If the reports of the maor saying no to it are true, then it has nothing to do with Bernie's management and everything to do with NIMBYs.


I am aware it is economics. That is why I don't know why someone would want to play Bernie's game since it is fairly one sided. A private concern would almost always end up losing money (like IMS). That is why local governments have to subsidize the races/venues. That seems less likely in the US.

Bernie wasn't happy with the level of local support he received (or didn't receive) in Indianapolis. What he missed was that it was his fault he didn't receive the support. He bad mouthed the locals, treated the press poorly, and had 2 races considered jokes (Not his fault but he is the face of the sport). So when IMS and Bernie went to renegotiate the deal he didn't have a leg to stand on when he made his demands. IMS had no reason to pay the same or more for a race they lost money on.

I think if he wants a race in the US he can't really expect to make the same deal he makes in South Korea or Malaysia. We just aren't as desperate for a F1 race as those places are. Not a knock on those places or on F1, there is just a lot going on here and not the concentrated support for F1 that there is in other places. When the race was in September it was competing with baseball, basketball, and football. Would it have that sort of competition anywhere else?

It will be interesting to see how things go when Bernie is gone.



#163 loki

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:35

I think Bernie's approach was more a case of I-don't-care-if-it's-Indianapolis-you're-not-getting-special-treatment. Bernie can't go cutting better deals for one circuit just because it is that circuit. If it does it for one, he has to do it for all (the exception to the rule being Monaco, because it's Monaco), and if he does that, then there will be less money to a) pay off CVC and b) give to the teams. I don't know why people seem to think America is hard done-by simply because it lost a Grand Prix when the aforementioned developing nations can easily afford it more than America can.


IMS declined the offer on the date extension. The reason there isn't a GP here is that it's not a very good business proposition for the track. Promoters can make more money by hosting other events. It's not the promoter's fault CVC far overpaid for the commercial rights. For some of these new tracks, they either don't have anything homegrown or they can't get anything else. Ecclestone is not liked in Indiana because he's an arrogant ass. The way he muscles and badmouths people he works with in Europe doesn't work over here. Deal with guys like Big Bill or Humpy Wheeler in that manner and they're more likely to knock him on his ass than the deal with him. After the tire debacle which could have been avoided with simple changes to the track he then went on to badmouth the city and residents of the midwest. Ecclestone can't get a foothold in the world's richest consumer market because he's been not been capable of securing long range business partnerships here.

#164 Lights

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:43

Ecclestone has no juice over here. Particularly in that part of the country where business deals need to work both ways with some of it perhaps not exactly above board. Not that he's not capable of doing some underhanded things, clearly he has but he doesn't understand the culture and business model of racing in the US. If he wants to play, he's going to have to pay. I think he might be able to work a deal with the state for the park but it's going to cost him a lot more than just renting a park for 5 years worth of races. There have been other events in the park. The Red Bull air races are there this year and there was a concert series that reportedly lost a fair amount. It would take some doing but he's going to have to cut a deal to appease a lot of people if this is to happen. I'd reckon this was a trial balloon and all it cost was throwing Destination Jersey City under the bus. It's interesting that while some of the comments on the local news site are negative, informal polling shows about a 75% approval for the race.

Well the ones who are negative tend to say more while the ones who are positive are fine with it but don't expect it to happen anyway so don't bother to write much. I think.

For the rest, good points.

#165 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:02

IMS had no reason to pay the same or more for a race they lost money on.

Yes they did. They would have gotten to keep the race. You could argue that Barcelona has produced a string of boring races and the producers aren't getting their money's worth. Yet they don't seem to expect that Ecclestone will give them a better deal. Indianapolis was always hard done-by. They seemed to expect that FOM would play nicely with them and give them a better deal just because the race was at Indianapolis.

The reason there isn't a GP here is that it's not a very good business proposition for the track.

It's not a very good business proposition for any other track, but they all pay.

It's not the promoter's fault CVC far overpaid for the commercial rights.

It's not FOM's fault that IMS seemed to think they were deserving of a better deal just because they wanted one.

After the tire debacle which could have been avoided with simple changes to the track he then went on to badmouth the city and residents of the midwest.

Yes, the circuit could have been changed - but why should Bridgestone have been penalised just for doing their jobs? The race should have been postponed instead.

Ecclestone can't get a foothold in the world's richest consumer market because he's been not been capable of securing long range business partnerships here.

Ecclestone can't get a foothold in the world's richest consumer market because Indianapolis seems to think that Formula 1 is a democracy.

#166 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:16

I think Bernie's approach was more a case of I-don't-care-if-it's-Indianapolis-you're-not-getting-special-treatment. Bernie can't go cutting better deals for one circuit just because it is that circuit. If it does it for one, he has to do it for all (the exception to the rule being Monaco, because it's Monaco)...


While there's probably a certain amount of truth to this, to be fair, Monza also has such a 'special deal'. And there may be others as well. We know different tracks pay different sanctioning fees as we've heard very different figures quoted over the years, generally during times of dispute or negotiation. Without going too far off topic, there was probably always going to be a certain amount of disdain between the IMS and the Formula 1 Fraternity. One bills itself The Pinnacle of Motor Racing and the other The Racing Capital of the World. And I think subconsciously, both were expecting the other to bend and adapt accordingly. For the IMS management, paying the sanctioning fee to begin with is something that made them choke. The Speedway, at the time, hosted two other races that both brought in considerably more patronage and money and they didn't pay such an outrageous fee for either. And there I think Bernie took a gamble during their negotiations in 2006 and lost as I'm guessing he expected George and the IMS to cave in and somehow, come up with the money. But considering the state of the US economy over the last two years, it was probably for the best as I'm willing to bet attendance would have been way down and both parties rather disgruntled.


If the reports of the maor saying no to it are true, then it has nothing to do with Bernie's management and everything to do with NIMBYs.


On this I agree completely. It's pretty clear if you look at the Friends of Liberty State Park website, what they thought of the idea of having a race in 'their' park. They considered it an abomination. And they do have some political clout at a grass roots level. And according to NJ.com, the president of the Friends board of trustees, Sam Pesin, picks up the phone, calls the mayor of Jersey City, and I can imagine the two discuss what a disaster it would be to have those noisy race cars through their park. Pesin is even quoted as saying the name of the park would have to change to Liberty State Raceway. And within 24 hours, the mayor asks that the proposal be withdrawn.

But it's not over yet. The park is owned by the State of New Jersey and the final decision rests with the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. It simply means that Jersey City, where the park resides, has withdrawn it's official approval for the event. At least, according to it's 'top' elected official.

Edited by jaisli, 05 May 2010 - 11:09.


#167 46er

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:40

I'd love to see some consideration giving to staging a race through Central Park IN New York. The Liberty State Park event will never happen; first it is a state park and I seriously doubt the state would give permission to tear it up for a track Second, getting in and out would be horrendous, worse than Montreal. Years ago, perhaps in the 60's, there was consideration given to staging a race on the roads within Central Park; a look at the park map shows an interesting course does indeed exist there, sort of a mini-Spa.

Central Park map

#168 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:56

I'd love to see some consideration giving to staging a race through Central Park IN New York. The Liberty State Park event will never happen; first it is a state park and I seriously doubt the state would give permission to tear it up for a track Second, getting in and out would be horrendous, worse than Montreal. Years ago, perhaps in the 60's, there was consideration given to staging a race on the roads within Central Park; a look at the park map shows an interesting course does indeed exist there, sort of a mini-Spa.


A race in central park, or anywhere else inside Manhattan will never happen for the same reasons, only worse. Can you imagine what it would take to move 24 race cars, 3 safety vehicles, a medical car, tons and tons of equipment, engines, spares, race fuel, oil, hazardous fluids, extra wings and carbon fiber panels, 3 entire truck loads of tires alone, plus wheels, electronics, computers, safety equipment, not to mention all the teams and personnel into and out of the city? Talk about a logistical nightmare. At least LSP has good access to Newark Airport and good access on and off the track. Central Park is fine if you're already in the city. If you're coming from outside, Manhattan is a horror show.

I've been to Montreal many times and never had an issue getting on or off the track. Of course, I generally get there early and leave late.

Edited by jaisli, 05 May 2010 - 13:02.


#169 Xpat

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 13:01

Yes they did. They would have gotten to keep the race. You could argue that Barcelona has produced a string of boring races and the producers aren't getting their money's worth. Yet they don't seem to expect that Ecclestone will give them a better deal. Indianapolis was always hard done-by. They seemed to expect that FOM would play nicely with them and give them a better deal just because the race was at Indianapolis.


You see that is the problem. Bernie expects promoters/localities/venues to kiss his rear end AND pay for the privilege AND be grateful. No venue in the US is going to keep a race that loses money for them just for the "privilege" of having a F1 race. The reason other countries can and do is because they are subsidised, if they had to make a profit...

And no one at IMS felt they should get a better deal just because it was Indianapolis. They felt it was too much money for a race that lost them money, wasn't very popular with local fans (local businesses loved the event btw), was ignored by the local media, and put on a show where drivers pull over and slow down to let someone else win or only 6 cars "race" because no one had the guts to fix the situation.

My guess would be that anyone looking to get a F1 race back to the US would be on the phone to the people at IMS to get their impressions. The press will be calling the folks at the Indianapolis Star to see what they think. None of that feedback will be overly positive.




#170 46er

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 13:31

A race in central park, or anywhere else inside Manhattan will never happen for the same reasons, only worse. Can you imagine what it would take to move 24 race cars, 3 safety vehicles, a medical car, tons and tons of equipment, engines, spares, race fuel, oil, hazardous fluids, extra wings and carbon fiber panels, 3 entire truck loads of tires alone, plus wheels, electronics, computers, safety equipment, not to mention all the teams and personnel into and out of the city? Talk about a logistical nightmare. At least LSP has good access to Newark Airport and good access on and off the track. Central Park is fine if you're already in the city. If you're coming from outside, Manhattan is a horror show.

I've been to Montreal many times and never had an issue getting on or off the track. Of course, I generally get there early and leave late.


It's done in many cities now for various racing events with no ill effects to speak of; Long Beach, Monte Carlo, etc, and this course is within the confines of the park. If you've ever driven in the city, it's a race every day :) Montreal has one advantage over JC and that's the metro. As far as the logistics of moving things around, there are more truck deliveries in the city in one hour than would be required for the entire event and the race would be on a weekend without that traffic. There are only 2 access points into LSP; one a small exit off the turnpike, the other local street. Perhaps another option is a course on the old Floyd Bennett airfeld on LI, but Paul Newman trid to hold a charity race out there and was shot down. Maybe down at the NJ Motorsport Park, but that's a fairly short track at 2 1/4 miles.

Edited by 46er, 05 May 2010 - 13:41.


#171 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 13:40

It's done in many cities now for various racing events with no ill effects to speak of; Long Beach, Monte Carlo, etc, and this course is within the confines of the park. If you've ever driven in the city, it's a race every day :) Montreal has one advantage over JC and that's the metro.


I work in International Logistics and there's a huge difference between moving equipment, especially containing IMDG restricted material in and out of Long Beach and New York. Long Beach has direct and quick access to the Freeway. NY doesn't and it's linked by tunnels and bridges where there are heavy restrictions for moving such material. It's no easy feat moving trucks and equipment in and out of Monaco. But (a) it's no where near as difficult as Manhattan and (b) the teams bring their transporters. NY would be a fly away race.



#172 One

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 13:48

I do agree to some opinion that LSP is not an ideal location for F1 to tae place in NYC, or in US, I mean on the land no new structure will never ever be built there as emptiness there has much meanings.
Besides, LSP is chosen because to run Monaco like race in USA is the reason behind why Bernie is chasing the place so much.

On the other hands, I am excited that Monaco's uniqueness is just one of the kind amongst the whole world. Any other proud places has so much none sense arguments what so ever not to hold exciting week ends. So be it. F1 will never be in NYC.

It is more likely that No US cities will therefore celebrate the F1. Chicago Detroit motor culture is now dead in US.

#173 Disgrace

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:02

Dumped.

Next daft idea...

#174 Don_Humpador

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:05

Canned after one day? :rotfl:

#175 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:06

Sounds like he's bowing to pressure from the NIMBYs.

#176 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:09

Canned after one day? :rotfl:



No, not exactly. As I posted above:

But it's not over yet. The park is owned by the State of New Jersey and the final decision rests with the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. It simply means that Jersey City, where the park resides, has withdrawn it's official approval for the event. At least, according to it's 'top' elected official.


Knowing the way politics in New Jersey work, I'm not surprised. However, I suspect in the end, this plan really has little chance. And the reason has more to do with money and who is going to front it.

#177 One

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:14

Please, let's pray this never happens... You see, Road America is a proper race track... camping spots within the track included:

Posted Image

F1 would destroy all that stuff.


Now back on this one. :lol:


Sorry to disturb your nostalgia ...

F(proper race track) = Camping place within the race track.

:rotfl:

Edited by One, 05 May 2010 - 14:15.


#178 rmac923

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:14

Dumped.

Next daft idea...


So much for putting pressure on Indianapolis...

Once again, they have no reason to roll over for Bernie.



#179 Kucki

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:16

Go to Road America

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#180 One

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:21

:up:

Go to Road America



#181 pgj

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:26

The problem is that F1 does not care about any impact on a venue. F1 is not bothered whether its race promoters make a profit. So long as it pats, the promoter does not matter. That is why Bernie likes governments to underwrite events. Banker's draft? That'll do nicely.

#182 BenettonB192

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 14:51

I dont get this whole complaining about quality of life etc. People should be thankfull that something of significance happens in their neighborhood.
And if you don't like the noise of the cars for one weekend a year? well rent out your appartement to race visitors for good money and make a nice paid holiday trip to some other place.

#183 jdanton

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:12

The state of New Jersey is broke, so I have no idea how this was even feasible in the first place.

I've raced bikes in Central Park before, and it could be an awesome circuit, but it will NEVER happen.

#184 Kooper

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:23

It would be quite a coup if Bernie could pull this off. Cameras panning the Manhattan skyline, the Statute of Liberty..etc. And there are around 20,000,000 people within 50-60 miles of the parks location... I wonder how large an economic impact a race such as this would have?

here is another view: http://www.nj.com/hu...ing_come_t.html

Joe Saward has some interesting thoughts as well: http://joesaward.wor...on-jersey-city/

#185 hotstickyslick

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:30

The real problem with this is who would seriously pay for it? I'd be pretty angry if I knew my tax money was paying for something like this.

#186 Fastcake

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:33

Well that was over rather quickly, bit of a shame I thought this one might just get the go ahead. Ah well, where to pick next?

#187 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:37

I think the idea is to get some sort of events promoter or national car club working on it. The BRDC runs the British Grand Prix with virtually no backing from Downing Street, so why can't it work in America?

#188 pgj

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:40

I dont get this whole complaining about quality of life etc. People should be thankfull that something of significance happens in their neighborhood.
And if you don't like the noise of the cars for one weekend a year? well rent out your appartement to race visitors for good money and make a nice paid holiday trip to some other place.


To a point. I am not sure if I would like Bernie's cash cow in my backyard though. :lol:

#189 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 15:41

Well that was over rather quickly, bit of a shame I thought this one might just get the go ahead. Ah well, where to pick next?

Going by one of the articles posted earlier, the buck does not stop with the mayor. The National Parks Servce are the ones who get the final say. And to be perfectly honest, the mayor seems to have rushed into this decision. One talk with the Friends of Liberty State Park and he does an abrupt about-face. Joe Saward (for once!) makes some decent points about how Formula 1 can benefit Liberty State Park, just as it did Albert Park and the Ile-Notre Dame. I honestly don't see what New Jersey is losing here: the park gets an upgrade to its infrastructure, but the changes won't be permanent, and it gets to be America's representative on a major international sporting stage.

And there's always the old maxim that whatever Bernie wants, Bernie gets. If he wants a race there, it will happen. Sooner or later. When was the last time he gave up ater one day because one little mayor changed his mind overnight?

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 05 May 2010 - 15:42.


#190 chrisj

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:08

I dont get this whole complaining about quality of life etc. People should be thankfull that something of significance happens in their neighborhood.
And if you don't like the noise of the cars for one weekend a year? well rent out your appartement to race visitors for good money and make a nice paid holiday trip to some other place.



Well, I wouldn't want it in my city -- for all of the reasons stated above. The cost, the noise and the crowds. I'd be mighty pissed if any of my tax dollars went to Formula One, no matter the supposed benefit to the local economy.

#191 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:17

Well, I wouldn't want it in my city -- for all of the reasons stated above. The cost, the noise and the crowds. I'd be mighty pissed if any of my tax dollars went to Formula One, no matter the supposed benefit to the local economy.

Me neither! I don't even like motorsports!

Edited by Ruud de la Rosa, 05 May 2010 - 16:17.


#192 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:29

People should be thankfull that something of significance happens in their neighborhood.

It's New York, one of the greatest cities in the World. Plenty of things of significance already happen there.

#193 jonpollak

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:33

"a negative wasteful controversy" :lol:
Ok then...
It's back up the river to to Weehawken.
Jp

#194 sumpthy

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:34

It's New York, one of the greatest cities in the World. Plenty of things of significance already happen there.

Actually it's Jersey City, neighbour to one of the greatest cities in the world. Nothing of significance happens there

#195 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:40

Well, I wouldn't want it in my city -- for all of the reasons stated above. The cost, the noise and the crowds. I'd be mighty pissed if any of my tax dollars went to Formula One, no matter the supposed benefit to the local economy.


Yes but to be fair, this is not a race that would take place in downtown Jersey City and require the closing of streets and shops, inconveniencing the locals and business a like. The park borders the water and is not only a good distance from residential living quarters but also separated by a major highway. I'm sure you'd be able to hear the cars but it probably wouldn't be much worse than normal. I would suspect, a certain percentage of the people coming to visit would arrive from Manhattan via ferry or public transportation. People driving in would take the Turnpike extension. Nobody actually has to transverse local roads in Jersey City to get to the park if they choose not to. People in that area are used to crowds and traffic.

For so many reasons, it would be such an ideal location.

#196 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:44

And there's always the old maxim that whatever Bernie wants, Bernie gets. If he wants a race there, it will happen. Sooner or later. When was the last time he gave up ater one day because one little mayor changed his mind overnight?


Yeah, that Long Beach Grand Prix really worked out for Bernie, didn't it? :well: Belle Isle too. And Caesar's Palace. At least he got Phoenix. History shows that Bernie tends to be outmanoeuvred in America.

The New York City area has very little history of motor sports. I've said this before, but the closest racing has really got to Manhattan is at Bridgehampton or the Roosevelt Raceway Vanderbilt Cup races in the '30s; or somewhere like Watkins Glen or Trenton in New Jersey. All of whose histories are full of financial difficulties. Even weekly short track events are relatively stilted. NASCAR has never managed to put a major-league speedway in NYC; the CART Meadowlands Grand Prix was pretty much a failure -- those two organisations know the local conditions much better than FOM can. It's arrogant for F1 to think New Yorkers need to be 'educated' about the benefits of motor racing, especially when they'll then be expected to stump up huge amounts of money for the privilege.

Somewhere like California or Dixieland would be a far better place to concentrate one's fire.


#197 Scudetto

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 16:49

This concept is dead. No state official is going to have the testicular fortitude to back this plan after the Jersey City mayor submits a proposal to stage a race on a site over which he had no control, then withdraws the proposal faster than the Friends of Liberty Park could say "re-election endorsement."

Start scouting Plan B.

Edited by Scudetto, 05 May 2010 - 16:50.


#198 jaisli

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:15

Yeah, that Long Beach Grand Prix really worked out for Bernie, didn't it? :well: Belle Isle too. And Caesar's Palace. At least he got Phoenix. History shows that Bernie tends to be outmanoeuvred in America...It's arrogant for F1 to think New Yorkers need to be 'educated' about the benefits of motor racing, especially when they'll then be expected to stump up huge amounts of money for the privilege.


For such an International City, New York is truly a stick and ball sports town. But if the average person could care less, make no mistake, there are motorsports fans in this city and surrounding area. And I guarantee you, they would have no problem to fill the stands at an F1 race, even with ticket prices double or triple what the IMS charged. It's an expensive town. And people are used to paying high prices.

I don't think it's completely fair to say that Bernie is outmaneuvered in America. But more to the point is the US population as a whole, has always had a keener interest in it's home grown motorsports activities than those of a series with few American drivers or teams (and none currently). And therefore, the US market didn't cater or bend over backwards to welcome F1 racing to it's shores in the way other countries have. And the completely opposing business model and operating relationship that CART/Indycar/NASCAR/SCCA has had with US based tracks, makes Bernie's "pay and pay hard" concept a tough sell. That said, I would hardly call an 8 year run at Long Beach, an 8 year run at Indy and over 20 years at Watkins Glen a failure for the F1 fraternity.

I'm still hopeful F1 will return to the US. No doubt many of the teams and sponsors want a US Grand Prix. But for the FOM, it's about return on investment.

Edited by jaisli, 05 May 2010 - 17:17.


#199 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:30

Now back on this one. :lol:


Sorry to disturb your nostalgia ...

F(proper race track) = Camping place within the race track.

:rotfl:


It was just an example, thanks for turning it into ridicule.

The main argument is that F1 would destroy the track (Road America) as we know it... it would have to be turned into a Tilkedrome.

But anyway.. no sweat.. never gonna happen. I'm just concerned some people would find that acceptable.

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#200 seltaeb

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:44

Since we have a GP in Montreal again, I think that efforts to stage a GP in the US should focus on the West Coast... There isn't a GP in this half of our hemisphere! And only 2 in the Western Hemisphere altogether (Montreal, Interlagos).