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#201 wj_gibson

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 17:53

Ecclestone should never have let Long Beach go. That's the only one of the multitude of temporary venues for US GP races over the years that had any staying power.

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#202 loki

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:03

And there's always the old maxim that whatever Bernie wants, Bernie gets. If he wants a race there, it will happen. Sooner or later. When was the last time he gave up ater one day because one little mayor changed his mind overnight?


What is it with the hero worship of Ecclestone? If he can't come to terms with the Friends of the Park, locals and state, it won't happen. It will be tied up in court for years. The park is protected wetlands and needs special permitting to hold an event. Without help he can't get anything done in the US. If he were serious about having the event he would have gotten everyone together and gotten buy in early. I don't think is so much the event but the way it's being done. The proposal, spelling errors and all reeks of amateur hour. The locals should have known there would be backlash from Friends of Park and should have been up front about getting everyone on board. Were this a real attempt at staging a Grand Prix there would have been a more detailed proposal as well as the permitting process being started. The permitting happens at the state level not the local level. What the current proposal looks like is something some guys put together at breakfast and hastily announced.


#203 seltaeb

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:16

Ecclestone should never have let Long Beach go. That's the only one of the multitude of temporary venues for US GP races over the years that had any staying power.

I agree... Plus, Long Beach is still available to this day. The Indy Cars just ran there in April. The nice thing about Long Beach too is that it already has some history built in. :up:

#204 Les

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:25

I agree... Plus, Long Beach is still available to this day. The Indy Cars just ran there in April. The nice thing about Long Beach too is that it already has some history built in. :up:


Its a vastly neutered layout these days though. I watched the Indycar race there fairly recently and some of it is fairly Micky-Mouse especially the first section 'The Fountain' which as it says goes round a fountain.

#205 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:31

Its a vastly neutered layout these days though. I watched the Indycar race there fairly recently and some of it is fairly Micky-Mouse especially the first section 'The Fountain' which as it says goes round a fountain.


Yes, one of the biggest ongoing problems Long Beach had was that the race was so successful at bringing money into the area, that property developments kept forcing the layout to change. Like the Vancouver CART circuit, or indeed Monaco. However, the ALMS race showed that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the new layout; indeed for such a short lap it has some considerable variety.

Edited by Risil, 05 May 2010 - 19:31.


#206 Fastcake

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:35

What is it with the hero worship of Ecclestone?

Hero worship of Ecclestone!? Wow there is certainly a first to everything :lol:

I believe what the Captain is saying is that Bernie is an extremely businessman, and you don't get to be a multi-billionaire if your not a good one. Let's face it, Bernie has an uncanny knack of getting almost exactly what he wants, and if he wants a Grand Prix in the US he will get one somewhere.

#207 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:41

Hero worship of Ecclestone!? Wow there is certainly a first to everything :lol:

I believe what the Captain is saying is that Bernie is an extremely businessman, and you don't get to be a multi-billionaire if your not a good one. Let's face it, Bernie has an uncanny knack of getting almost exactly what he wants, and if he wants a Grand Prix in the US he will get one somewhere.


By the look of things, if Bernie gets a Grand Prix in the US it will be because of an extremely bad American businessman.

#208 skid solo

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 19:43

It will never happen :cool:


Told you :lol:

#209 loki

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 20:37

By the look of things, if Bernie gets a Grand Prix in the US it will be because of an extremely bad American businessman.



Or it will be because he's paying for it. ;) If it's such a good thing then he should be willing to promote it.

#210 One

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 21:43

Told you :lol:



You were awesomely correct in this prediction. :up:

BTW what about Florida? or Miami?

#211 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:13

You were awesomely correct in this prediction. :up:

BTW what about Florida? or Miami?


Between Daytona, Homestead and St. Pete I'm not sure there's room for another venue. F1 at St Petersburg might be entertaining though.

#212 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:16

Between Daytona, Homestead and St. Pete I'm not sure there's room for another venue. F1 at St Petersburg might be entertaining though.


Send them to Sebring and watch the F1s disintegrate on those glorious bumps :D

#213 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:18

Send them to Sebring and watch the F1s disintegrate on those glorious bumps :D


Ooh, forgot all about Sebring. It worked in 1959! :D

Road Atlanta would be my choice though. The area around there is quite affluent, cultured in motor racing, and not too saturated by NASCAR. I'm sure the AMA and IMSA would appreciate the safety modifications too. Of course it's not going to happen, but IMO an F1 race there could be worthwhile and lasting.

Edited by Risil, 05 May 2010 - 22:25.


#214 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:30

Ooh, forgot all about Sebring. It worked in 1959! :D

Road Atlanta would be my choice though. The area around there is quite affluent, cultured in motor racing, and not too saturated by NASCAR. I'm sure the AMA and IMSA would appreciate the safety modifications too. Of course it's not going to happen, but IMO an F1 race there could be worthwhile and lasting.


Wouldn't Road Atlanta be a death trap for F1s? It's way too short and they'd bulldoze the character right out of it to make it 'worthy' of F1 I think.. and that's apart from Bernie having no interest whatsoever in bringing F1 in that area..

#215 rmac923

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:42

Wouldn't Road Atlanta be a death trap for F1s? It's way too short and they'd bulldoze the character right out of it to make it 'worthy' of F1 I think.. and that's apart from Bernie having no interest whatsoever in bringing F1 in that area..


It's 2.5 Miles long. But IIRC I remember seeing an rFactor (not real, I know) video where an F1 car could complete a lap in 59 seconds.

So Yeah, they'd have to extend the track somewhat.

#216 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 22:44

What is it with the hero worship of Ecclestone?

I'm not hero-worshipping him. I'm defending him, because everyone is far to quick to condemn him as being in the thores of deentia simply because they disagree with him.

If he can't come to terms with the Friends of the Park, locals and state, it won't happen.

Of course not. But whatever Bernie wants, Bernie gets. That will of course include coming to terms with the NIMBYs, locals and the state.

The proposal, spelling errors and all reeks of amateur hour.

I believe the proposal is only a draft, and given the choice, the organisers would not have released it. But the NIMBYs found out about it and somehow forced the proposl to be published.

The locals should have known there would be backlash from Friends of Park and should have been up front about getting everyone on board.

Spinning off from my previous point: they probably had every intention of talking to the NIMBYs once the draft was finalised. But the NIMBYs seemed to oppose the project from the outset simply because they were not consulted first. They seem to think they are an absolute authority, with the same powers as a state National Parks body.

Were this a real attempt at staging a Grand Prix there would have been a more detailed proposal as well as the permitting process being started. The permitting happens at the state level not the local level. What the current proposal looks like is something some guys put together at breakfast and hastily announced.

Again, it's a draft. The NIMBYs forced the organisers' hands.

#217 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 23:03

It's 2.5 Miles long. But IIRC I remember seeing an rFactor (not real, I know) video where an F1 car could complete a lap in 59 seconds.

So Yeah, they'd have to extend the track somewhat.


Look at it... it's fine for what it is.. but it looks nothing like a current F1 track... might as well build a new one from scratch elsewhere instead of destroying that one..



also.. 1:31 leisure lap in a Porsche 993 RSR... as you say that should translate into sub 1min laptimes for F1 easily...

#218 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 23:09

Look at it... it's fine for what it is.. but it looks nothing like a current F1 track... might as well build a new one from scratch elsewhere instead of destroying that one..


Hmm. The flow of the current circuit is absolutely perfect (check out the last AMA meeting for examples), extending it or substantially altering the corners would be a waste. I don't see the problem with sub-1m laptimes, though, F1's had them before. So long as there's enough room to get the cars properly gridded and started, I don't see why one length is intrinsically better than another.

Edited by Risil, 05 May 2010 - 23:10.


#219 rmac923

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 00:36

Hmm. The flow of the current circuit is absolutely perfect (check out the last AMA meeting for examples), extending it or substantially altering the corners would be a waste. I don't see the problem with sub-1m laptimes, though, F1's had them before. So long as there's enough room to get the cars properly gridded and started, I don't see why one length is intrinsically better than another.


I honestly don't remember sub-1m laptimes. Maybe at Dijon way back, but certainly not in the past 20 years.

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#220 snafu

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 01:29

By the look of things, if Bernie gets a Grand Prix in the US it will be because of an extremely bad American businessman.


Bernie meet Tony Soprano :rotfl: :rotfl:

#221 One

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 09:20

Look at it... it's fine for what it is.. but it looks nothing like a current F1 track... might as well build a new one from scratch elsewhere instead of destroying that one..



also.. 1:31 leisure lap in a Porsche 993 RSR... as you say that should translate into sub 1min laptimes for F1 easily...


I provisionally drafted the circuit extension with the basis of:

1. Do not change the existing track layout.
2. Add one more circuit where the two can be connected as a longer race track.
3. This new second track has similar characteristic as existing ones, but much more technical.

I made two options.

Option One: Extension towards the east: Adding 'C' shaped second track.
The site has C formed valley. The new circuit follows its basic contour while climbing up the hill/ridge and steeply going down to demand high mechanical grip levels and driving skills, like to one we see at Puhon, Spa or Carlos Pace.

plan
Posted Image

perspective
Posted Image


Option Two: Extension towards the west: adding Valley route.
Parallel to the existing track on the west side there is one open valley that stretched NS. The first part of this new track goes up and down the hill in several V shaped turns creating demanding conditions for engines and driving skill. The second part of the new track is a long straight descending the hill ending up in 3D spoon starting with kinky bend.

Plan
Posted Image

Perspective
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#222 skid solo

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 09:29

You were awesomely correct in this prediction. :up:

BTW what about Florida? or Miami?



If anything they will go back to Indy... Tony George has been seen in the F1 paddock recently

#223 wj_gibson

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 09:35

F1 came very close to going to Road Atlanta in 1998. Panoz even eradicated one of the flyover roads and added a chicane in the Esses, but it fell throughat the last minute. That's when Indy came into the picture. IIRC, Road Atlanta came into pictue when the Brandy Station project was still-born.

#224 Kucki

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 09:43

Sorry One but these extensions would turn Road Atlanta into a Micky Mouse course. Medium speed straights, followed by slow corners are tiresome to watch, adds nothing but talking away seeing the cars more often at the exciting places.

Road Atlanta is a fascinating track, with its exciting corners and varity, lots of elevation changes, beautiful scenery... its a fantasic track to watch a race on or drive it in a Simulation. If F1 cars would really drive there with a 1 minute lap time - so what? They also did this at the A1 Ring and the races were still great.

For those who dont know the track:

Edited by Kucki, 06 May 2010 - 09:47.


#225 One

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 09:55

Sorry One but these extensions would turn Road Atlanta into a Micky Mouse course. Medium speed straights, followed by slow corners are tiresome to watch, adds nothing but talking away seeing the cars more often at the exciting places.

Road Atlanta is a fascinating track, with its exciting corners and varity, lots of elevation changes, beautiful scenery... its a fantasic track to watch a race on or drive it in a Simulation. If F1 cars would really drive there with a 1 minute lap time - so what? They also did this at the A1 Ring and the races were still great.

For those who dont know the track:


I got ya.

For the option One I can see that. It was the reason as to why I start two.

#226 pgj

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 10:52

It would be one in the knee-cap for most people. It is one in the eye for Bernie. He should have taken better care of the US GP contract that he had instead of casting his green eye over someone else's grass.

#227 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 11:12

It would be one in the knee-cap for most people. It is one in the eye for Bernie. He should have taken better care of the US GP contract that he had instead of casting his green eye over someone else's grass.

Why is it that people seem to think the United States Grand Prix is entitled to a better contract with Bernie than any other circuit on the calendar?

#228 johnmhinds

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 11:13

I think Bernie did as much as he could have done with IMS, if they couldn't find a way to make any money from the race then that isn't really his fault.


Please let us go to Laguna Seca, even if it's just a one off.

Edited by johnmhinds, 06 May 2010 - 11:14.


#229 pgj

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:08

Why is it that people seem to think the United States Grand Prix is entitled to a better contract with Bernie than any other circuit on the calendar?


I do not get your point there Captain.

#230 One

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:27

Sorry One but these extensions would turn Road Atlanta into a Micky Mouse course. Medium speed straights, followed by slow corners are tiresome to watch, adds nothing but talking away seeing the cars more often at the exciting places.


So the third!

Posted Image

#231 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:42

One, the only sggestion I'd make would be to keep that giant right-hander at the top of your new section away from the circuit like that. They are way to close together, so any accident on either section would compromise the safet of the other.

I do not get your point there Captain.

Everyone is talking about how Bernie squandered the Indianpolis contract and that the race didn't survive because of the business plan, and suggesting that if the conditions were better for the circuit so that they could make money out of it, then the race would have survived. But every other circuit on the calendar runs to the same conditions as Indianapolis did, and they do just fine. So if it's good enough for everyone else, why is it that the United States Grand Prix should get a better deal? Monaco pretty much gets their race for free, but that's because it's Monaco. A calendar without Monaco would be a lesser championship. But the championship is no lesser for a lack of a United States Grand Prix. I admit, it would be a more complete calendar with it in place, but the credibility of Formula 1 is not riding on the presence of a race in America. So why is it that the USA should get a better deal from Ecclestone?

#232 jaisli

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 12:50

I've been to Road Atlanta (for the Petit Le Mans) and it's a great track. The elevation changes seem much more pronounced in real life than they appear on TV. It's a wonderful place for sports car racing. But F1 cars? I'm not so sure. They would be forced to make so many changes to the track on safety grounds that it would ruin the character. Not to mention enormous upgrades to the facilities, adding grandstands, garages, pits, a paddock area. And then there's the access. It's trouble enough getting ~ 30,000 people in and out of Road Atlanta. Can you imagine trying to move 80,000? Or 100,000? The local roads couldn't handle it. They're a traffic slog nightmare already during big events. And who's going to pay for all these changes?

Unfortunately, cost and changes to the track aside, as a possible venue, it suffers the same problem as just about every other great road course in the US: it's simply in the middle of nowhere and the FOM (and presumably the sponsors putting Bernie under pressure to stage a US race) want it in a prominent location. If the F1 fraternity considered Indianapolis too 'remote', they're not going to consider Road Atlanta. Or Road America. Or Laguna Seca. Or Mid Ohio. Or Watkins Glen, etc, etc, etc.

It's a stalemate. :| And I'm afraid the only solution is back to Indy, which I don't think is going to happen or a temporary circuit somewhere. Which, if Jersey City is any example to go by, isn't likely to happen anytime soon either.

Edited by jaisli, 06 May 2010 - 12:54.


#233 pgj

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 13:03

One, the only sggestion I'd make would be to keep that giant right-hander at the top of your new section away from the circuit like that. They are way to close together, so any accident on either section would compromise the safet of the other.


Everyone is talking about how Bernie squandered the Indianpolis contract and that the race didn't survive because of the business plan, and suggesting that if the conditions were better for the circuit so that they could make money out of it, then the race would have survived. But every other circuit on the calendar runs to the same conditions as Indianapolis did, and they do just fine. So if it's good enough for everyone else, why is it that the United States Grand Prix should get a better deal? Monaco pretty much gets their race for free, but that's because it's Monaco. A calendar without Monaco would be a lesser championship. But the championship is no lesser for a lack of a United States Grand Prix. I admit, it would be a more complete calendar with it in place, but the credibility of Formula 1 is not riding on the presence of a race in America. So why is it that the USA should get a better deal from Ecclestone?


I agree with you. My point, not made clearly, was that Bernie has hawked F1 all around the US and always has an eye on more money for CVC/FOM. If he had taken more care with the contract he had in the US, we might still have a race there. Bernie could have done more to rescue the situation with the tyre fiasco at Indy. I seem to recall Bernie hiding behind the 'where is Max' excuse. I do not believe that the US will get a better deal for F1. Bernie/CVC always come first and second with F1 coming a very distant third and F1 fans bringing up the rear of the field. Bernie is the one who constantly pines for a US GP. My sorrow is for all US F1 fans.

If I gave the impression that my post was in anyway pro Bernie, I will go and wash my mouth out with carbolic soap and sit on the naughty step! Pro Bernie? Ugh! Perish the thought. Please don't say that is what you thought! You could not be that heartless could you Captain? lol!

#234 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 13:08

If I gave the impression that my post was in anyway pro Bernie, I will go and wash my mouth out with carbolic soap and sit on the naughty step! Pro Bernie? Ugh! Perish the thought. Please don't say that is what you thought! You could not be that heartless could you Captain? lol!

I didn't think you were pro-Bernie at all. I was just noticing a growing trend throughout this thread without people seeming to think that America is deserving of a better deal than every other circuit, and I was wondering what made it so deserving at all.

#235 onemoresolo

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 13:19

If F1 really wants to crack America, it needs three races there. West Coast, East Coast, and central. Long Beach and Indy have two of those wrapped up already location wise.

#236 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 13:29

Yeah, there's no way that's ever happening.

#237 onemoresolo

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:06

Yeah, there's no way that's ever happening.


If Spain can have two, there's no reason why the USA couldn't have three. It just depends on a lot of zeros.

#238 One

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:09

You need WDC for that to happen. Promote Schumi a US citizenship, that may help.

#239 Xpat

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:16

I didn't think you were pro-Bernie at all. I was just noticing a growing trend throughout this thread without people seeming to think that America is deserving of a better deal than every other circuit, and I was wondering what made it so deserving at all.


I don't think anyone suggested the US should get a better deal. We just said a deal couldn't be done and listed the reasons why.

I would be stunned if any 2 contracts Bernie has are the same. The big difference is that a lot of the venues that hold F1 races have special deals with local governments. Other tracks do just fine because they have government support and thus don't really have the same "deal" that Indianapolis had.

I am not sure Bernie's business formula works as well in the US where tracks don't (or are very unlikely to get) get government assistance.

My personal opinion, not shared by many I know, is that IMS is one of the most historically important tracks in the world. Both Formula 1 and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's reputation would be enhanced if there were a race there. Neither is lessened without a race but both would benefit.

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#240 BenettonB192

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:19

Road Atlanta doesn't look like its up to F1 standarts at all. The whole thing would basicly have to be rebuild and a lot of landscaping next to the track would have to take place to make enough place for run off areas.

Nice layout tho. Think i'm gonna give it a try in rFactor.

#241 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:23

If Spain can have two, there's no reason why the USA couldn't have three. It just depends on a lot of zeros.

Formula 1 is immensely popular in Spain. The have a double World Champion, plus two other drivers and a team of their own. America has no Grands Prix, no teams and no races currently. If they can't maintain one race because they throw tantrums about the contracts, why should they have three?

I would be stunned if any 2 contracts Bernie has are the same. The big difference is that a lot of the venues that hold F1 races have special deals with local governments. Other tracks do just fine because they have government support and thus don't really have the same "deal" that Indianapolis had.

I mean they are the same in spirit, structured the same way if not identical in the details.

#242 Junfansoto

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:41

I was wondering how this forum (specifically this thread) would look after these news.

I've only lived in Jersey City for 9 years now, so I'm not as familiar with its politics as I was with NYC politics when I was involved, and NYGP proposals were flying around. However, if I know politicians and "advocacy" groups, this is more about cash and power. In the case of groups like Friends of Liberty State Park, it's an opportunity to raise the organization's radar profile by objecting to something they didn't even need to be consulted on, thereby increasing clout. Someone in that group needs their coffers filled, either by greenbacks or political equity. As someone else said here, election endorsement means a lot - especially in a place where there aren't many organized constituent groups, and a general apathy towards municipal elections, anyway - with good reason: consider that my son's soccer coach was laid of by J.C. Parks and Recreation because the city "couldn't afford" his sub-minimum wage stipend. Granted, he was part-time, but word around the campfire is that this is cash cannibalized from low-profile positions here and there to pay off political favors. It's little things like that.

One has to wonder at the proposal, and whether or not B.E. is even serious. It seems rather incomplete and vague, in comparison to what even most of us here (I'd wager there aren't many proposal writers among us) could be capable of with some diligence and common sense. The Seward article, linked to in this thread, offers Albert Park and Ile Notre Dame as comparisons, and to me a good proposal would've included a lot of detail as to what a (non-permanent) track would entail, how it's done to little environmental impact, especially at Albert Park, and more importantly, the money involved and where it would go. Jersey City really is in very dire straits economically, and much has been made of a long term "revival" effort - I'm not sure if the proposal has conveyed just how aligned a GP would be with those efforts. On the "back end," you need people who know and who's who locally and whose agenda needs to be appeased ($$$$). These people would have been approached long before any of us would've heard about this.

Granted, we are only privy to what's being reported. For all we know, "Friends" of Liberty State Park is capitalizing on the general public's relative ignorance of motor-racing street venues and yelling about how this will destroy the place without any evidence to support it - Joe public here seldom pays attention to anything more than alarmist headlines.

Remember that this is not about what's good for the park - it is obvious that the race would result in better infrastructure for its surroundings (BELIEVE me, it's needed!), the construction of multi-use facilities, and ancillary spending that can only benefit real, sincere conservation initiatives on the Hudson River waterfront. It's not even about what's good for cash-strapped Jersey City: it's also obvious that local businesses on both sides of the Hudson would make a mint. This is about who gets to put what in their pocket, and I'm not even talking about B.E.

That being said, I think the Meadowlands has the better chance of making this happen, especially if you consider all the talk about reviving the Xanadu project as a hotel/casino, all to compete with the Ratner project in Brooklyn. But I still personally prefer LSP. You never know, it's in the State's hands now, and that might be a different ball game - for better or worse! ;)

To change gears (pun!) for a bit...I get the impression that some people here haven't really been to the NYC Metro Area for any significant amount of time, or else they'd know that VERY few of the people in Manhattan at any given time actually live there. Most live in the "outer" boroughs, and in Jersey City, Hoboken, and other towns by the Hudson. It is very true that Jersey City is, for all practical purposes, a borough of NY as I'd wager that most of its population are there due to its proximity to Manhattan. We used to live in Queens (Elmhurst) and the commute is practically identical. Tons of NYC residents come to nearby (to LSP) Newport to shop via public transportation as easily as you hop onto a subway from Astoria to 14th St. My wife works in Brooklyn, and I used to work in the Midtown and City Hall areas. FWIW, our New Yorkers' leisure activities have never been affected by our move. By the way, the Newport Area is like a stone throw away from LSP, and a shuttle from both the Pavonia and Grove Street (little further) PATH stations would be a breeze - there's also light rail transportation and nearby Caven Point boasts a more than capable and modern ferry hub for Lower Manhattan commuters.

Sorry for the length, folks. Sometimes I just get carried away with this stuff!

L.S.





#243 onemoresolo

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 14:58

Formula 1 is immensely popular in Spain. The have a double World Champion, plus two other drivers and a team of their own. America has no Grands Prix, no teams and no races currently. If they can't maintain one race because they throw tantrums about the contracts, why should they have three?


I mean they are the same in spirit, structured the same way if not identical in the details.


It isn't "immensely popular" at all - Fernando Alonso is. The team and other two drivers are irrelevant, they weren't here this time last year or in 08, yet there were two races then.

The crowds at Indy were as good as the European races. There isn't a lack of interest, and the teams would be in favour of it. It's a huge market.

Don't confuse the ownership of one track with a nation as a whole, either.

#244 jaisli

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 16:50

I was wondering how this forum (specifically this thread) would look after these news.


As always, your insight is appreciated and welcome. :up:


#245 Junfansoto

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 17:04

As always, your insight is appreciated and welcome. :up:

Thanks man (still panting after that rant...)
:wave:

#246 Bunchies

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 17:44

Why is it that people seem to think the United States Grand Prix is entitled to a better contract with Bernie than any other circuit on the calendar?


Because the US doesn't need F1, and the entire attitude that Bernie and F1 are bigger than the US is getting tiresome. They don't want it unless they can make money off of it, or at least minimize their losses. Bernie's continual strong arm techniques won't work there because they simply don't care enough. Its not that important.

Do you see what I mean? Bernie makes it seem like he's doing us a favor by giving us a race, whereas in reality, the roles are reversed. "Look guys, I'm ONLY charging you x million so you can have this race that I think you need. Come on you ungrateful gits, its a good deal!"

#247 Junfansoto

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 19:24

Because the US doesn't need F1, and the entire attitude that Bernie and F1 are bigger than the US is getting tiresome. They don't want it unless they can make money off of it, or at least minimize their losses. Bernie's continual strong arm techniques won't work there because they simply don't care enough. Its not that important.

Do you see what I mean? Bernie makes it seem like he's doing us a favor by giving us a race, whereas in reality, the roles are reversed. "Look guys, I'm ONLY charging you x million so you can have this race that I think you need. Come on you ungrateful gits, its a good deal!"


:up: Nail, meet hammerhead, hammerhead, meet nail...
Let's face it: We could eventually find a way around nonsense like this (this LSP situation) if only there was a different ethos on the part of B.E. It still wouldn't be easy, but a great deal more possible, IMHO...

I for one am keeping my fingers crossed: I think everyone sees the potential cash this could put on the table, it's a matter of how it gets sorted out.

Edited by Junfansoto, 06 May 2010 - 19:25.


#248 loki

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 19:47

My personal opinion, not shared by many I know, is that IMS is one of the most historically important tracks in the world. Both Formula 1 and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's reputation would be enhanced if there were a race there. Neither is lessened without a race but both would benefit.


I don't see the speedway making many concessions at this point. A previous poster mentioned Tony George in China as a sign that it might go back to Indianapolis but Tony has been run out of the family business. One of the reasons was because he lost so much money on the races and spent a bunch on the road circuit.

@tightpants...
No one is suggesting a "special deal". It's a business and if promoters or investors can't make a sutiable return they won't invest. It really is that easy. If you want to talk about special deals, how about Monaco? This is the part where you tell me about the prestige and history of the race. I think the British GP has more history than Monaco in terms of the sport but Monaco has the glitz factor which trumps the racing factor in the eyes of many. Do you think the principality would allow the race if suddenly they had to pay a sanctioning fee in the tens of millions of dollars? The US doesn't need to "prove" anything with hosting a GP like some of the countries are doing. If we were to promote the country there are many other less expensive, better ways in which to accomplish that task. This is about a buisness deal to promote an entertainment event where the deal is ridiculously slanted in one direction. It should surprise no one there are no takers for that deal in the US.

Edited by loki, 06 May 2010 - 19:48.


#249 loki

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 20:12

I for one am keeping my fingers crossed: I think everyone sees the potential cash this could put on the table, it's a matter of how it gets sorted out.


Good posts Junfansoto. I've stayed at the Courtyard in JC when the prices in the city are off the hook. Weehawken too and take the water taxi over. I'd much rather stay on your side of the Hudson than by La Guardia or JFK.

I think there are ways to make it happen and for the park to coexist with the race. I think outside money, for example FOM paying for improvements to the park would go a long way toward getting it done. That needs to be buttressed with a proper economic impact for the tri state area. Exclusivity. Allow only the GP, once a year to use the park as a circuit. Properly done it will improve the park and give that area a much needed boost economically.


#250 jaisli

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 12:07

Well, NOW we can say this dream is pretty much over. I don't have a link but it was announced on NJ News 12 this morning that the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection has officially turned down the proposal for a race at Liberty State Park. Unlike the Friends of Liberty State Park or the Mayor of Jersey City, THEY were the only entity who could legally give or refuse consent. But you can rest assured than an aggressive campaign from the FLSP was likely behind their decision. :well:

Not that I ever really thought this scheme would work. But I guess now we can pretty much officially put it to rest. :cry: :down: