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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#6301 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:08

Sir Frank doesn't like Alonso:

I'm not really a big fan of Fernando Alonso. He often looks a bit sullen, rarely acknowledges anybody and seems very uncommunicative. He's brilliant at racing cars but seems to have no animation about him. Perhaps it's his own way of going about his business on a race weekend.

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/35527.html

Are we talking about the fiery Spaniard or about the icecool Finn? :p

PS I guess this goes to show how wrong stereotypes can be - but I bet the image of the "fiery Spaniard" will be back!

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#6302 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:09

That said, Autosport jumping on this statement like cats spotting at fat mouse, misquoting him (deliberately to make a good story even better?) in the process is another - rather sad - story.


Unfortunately, that's nothing new for Autosport recently, and they've lost a great deal of my respect over it - especially the shoddy translations, or not taking into account that even if Alonso speaks English, he does so with a Spanish background. And I've read Autosport with great pleasure for over 15 years.


#6303 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:20

F1 bosses vote Alonso the best of 2010

In a now end-of-season tradition, AUTOSPORT asked each of the current 12 team principals for their top 10 driver rankings of the 2010 campaign.. Their individual results, which are kept secret, were then converted into the new points system (25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1) and the final scores added up to discover which driver the team bosses believed had done the best job throughout the campaign.

1. Alonso 229
2. Vettel 220
3. Hamilton 196
4. Webber 146
5. Kubica 129
6. Button 86
7. Rosberg 68
8. Hulkenberg 17
9. Massa 17
10. Barrichello 11


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 December 2010 - 22:20.


#6304 Nitropower

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:39

Maybe Sir Frank expected Alonso to have a tea cup with him or something. He must have forgotten he is just another rival from a rival team and with no links with him or any need to establish them.

Unfortunately Williams has long stopped being in the front pages and lost all competitivity, they can't find resources as well as McLaren did and have their continuity. So why on earth would Alonso or any other top driver pay any more attention than normal?

It's weird, you know. We all see when Webber, Hamilton, Alonso and others joke in the paddock, we've seen them all serious, smiley, concentrated etc. But then it's Alonso who Sir Frank doesn't like. Does he like Kobayashi? I bet he can't even spell his name.

#6305 Suntrek

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:52

No, you just don't get it :rolleyes:

Alonso makes a comment, autosport add flesh to the bones.

Simples :cat:


You mean Autosport takes one - say ONE - sentence from a Spanish radio interview, puts a spin on that very sentence and builds a whole article around it. What did they want to tell us by elaborating on and as you say - "add flesh" to his words ? What was their point? What did they want to picture Alonso as?

Oh, I get it alright.... :down:

I strongly suggest however, that Autosport refrains itself from publishing such nonsense in the future, at least if it wants to keep its international reputation as a trustworthy and serious website/magazine. That article, I'm sorry to say, smells more of News Of The World than of a serious motorsport publication.


#6306 AlanWake

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:57

Sir Frank doesn't like Alonso:

I'm not really a big fan of Fernando Alonso. He often looks a bit sullen, rarely acknowledges anybody and seems very uncommunicative. He's brilliant at racing cars but seems to have no animation about him. Perhaps it's his own way of going about his business on a race weekend.

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/35527.html


Ferrari and people who has worked with him closely think otherwise (well, except maybe Ron Dennis for obvious reasons, of course!).

I'm sure if Alonso was driving for Williams, he would say how great driver and team leader Fernando really is.. :stoned:

Edited by AlanWake, 02 December 2010 - 22:57.


#6307 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:00

Leaving the his dig at Massa aside(and I think this as classless as it can be) don't you think his self congratulatory tirade (My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year.")
is classless and compleatelly out of wack with what happened in the past season ?

Leaving aside the dig at Massa, I don't think it's classless to call one's own driving "better than ever", as it is purely a self-analysis. He didn't say his driving was "better than everyone else" which would be.

Well it was a Spanish radio station, broadcasting in Spain, he spoke in Spanish and the question he answered was "But the feeling, at least among Spanish fans, is that the driver has been better than the machine".

Of course his answer was directed at the Spanish fans, how much clearer do you want it to be?

That said, Autosport jumping on this statement like cats spotting at fat mouse, misquoting him (deliberately to make a good story even better?) in the process is another - rather sad - story.

I don't believe that speaking in Spanish on a Spanish radio station equates to speaking to his fans. Being a fan of Alonso does not mean being Spanish and being Spanish does not mean being a fan of Alonso.

Posted Image

:drunk: with that photo on the cover I wonder what they wrote about Fernando inside the magazine.

You could try reading it to find out...

No shit, Sherlock?

However, that was not the point. I was referring to Alonso's audience, not to the number of people who actually speak Spanish.



It's already kindly been translated here in this very thread by e34, but I'll copy it again just for your benefit. (thanks, e34)

But the feeling, at least among Spanish fans, is that the driver has been better than the machine.

No, I believe… we are a team, aren’t we? Probably the difference with my teammate this year has been big, maybe the biggest one I have enjoyed so far, and that makes me happy to some extent, because I came from two seasons, 2008 and 2009, in which my personal results had not been noteworthy, and in 2010 I felt great again and at ease with the car, and I think that my driving has been better than ever, and I wish I could remain at the same level next year.


If you'd like it in Spanish it's right here, about halfway into the interview.

Now let me quote what Autosport is writing:

Fernando Alonso says he took great satisfaction from his margin of superiority over Ferrari team-mate Felipe Massa this season, with the Spaniard seeing the gap as evidence that he was in his best form yet.

In an interview with Onda Cero radio, Alonso said that beating Massa by the margin that he did - with Alonso qualifying in front 15 times in 19 races and out-scoring his team-mate by 108 points - showed he had raised his game in 2010.




In fact Alonso says nothing like that at all, they put words in his mouth that were never there. Sheesh.


If you would be so kind, can you point out to me the meaningful differences in the two translations? The way I read them, they appear to say essentially the same thing.
The words that Autosport "put into Alonso's mouth" are the those in quotation marks in the report - which you haven't quoted in your post. Are they wrong? If they are, to what degree, and could they be considered to be changing the meaning in any significant way?


#6308 as65p

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:01

That's actually a really nationalistic cover, even by Autosport's standards:

1. Hamilton and Button both celebrating - but they finished lowest of the championship contenders
2. OMG, Paul di Resta has an Italian name so let's remind everyone that he's British!
3. Poor Filipe Albuquerque just gets called an "unknown".


Autosport covers are worth a chuckle quite often. :D

Then again, in their defense I have to say that there are really two versions of the publication around: the one on the surface aimed at the british mass market, selling the mag the main priority, and then, somewhat hidden, some decent motorsport journalism still around inside the mag.

#6309 fed up

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:11

Ferrari and people who has worked with him closely think otherwise (well, except maybe Ron Dennis for obvious reasons, of course!).

I'm sure if Alonso was driving for Williams, he would say how great driver and team leader Fernando really is.. :stoned:


You mean his friends at Renault that asked Petrov to step aside and make his life easier?

Yes Ferrari are his friends especially while Santander are paying the bills :wave:

#6310 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:28

You mean his friends at Renault that asked Petrov to step aside and make his life easier?


That's your measure of friendship among the car race folks?

#6311 Suntrek

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:36

I don't believe that speaking in Spanish on a Spanish radio station equates to speaking to his fans. Being a fan of Alonso does not mean being Spanish and being Spanish does not mean being a fan of Alonso.


Certainly not. I'm a fan of Alonso and I'm not remotely Spanish. :) But the clue is in the question - or if you prefer - the statement Alonso answers. The question is referring to the Spanish' fans feelings so I don't think I'm speculating too much when stating the answer is being directed to them as well. I also doubt that people uninterested in F1 and/or people who don't like Alonso are willing to spend their time listening to a radio interview with him.

If you would be so kind, can you point out to me the meaningful differences in the two translations? The way I read them, they appear to say essentially the same thing.
The words that Autosport "put into Alonso's mouth" are the those in quotation marks in the report - which you haven't quoted in your post. Are they wrong? If they are, to what degree, and could they be considered to be changing the meaning in any significant way?


The actual quotes are fine, except for that Alonso is softening up his statements with words like "perhaps" and "maybe" - which are omitted in the translation. But OK.

My main problem is the stating of "Alonso says" and "Alonso said". Alonso haven't said these things at all, it's a journalist's interpretation of what Alonso said. And nothing wrong with spicing it up a bit when we are at it, eh? Adding a little bit of this and a little bit of that. What Alonso actually said is far too boring and hadn't made any article at all. The article isn't a lie, and I never claimed it was. But it has a spin on it that I find uncomfortable and unworthy of a serious motorsport website.

#6312 AlanWake

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:48

You mean his friends at Renault that asked Petrov to step aside and make his life easier?

Yes Ferrari are his friends especially while Santander are paying the bills :wave:


Just reading between your lines:

If someone like Frank Williams or even Boullier :D who haven't worked with FA btw say something "bad" about Fernando --> They are completely right for telling the truth -> "I hate Alonso and I therefore like what I read" :up:

If someone like Stoddart, Briatore, Whitmarsh or Domenicalli say something good about FA --> They must be completely wrong -> "I hate Alonso. Alonso is simply a [censored]" :down:

:stoned:

#6313 Slartibartfast

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:23

Certainly not. I'm a fan of Alonso and I'm not remotely Spanish. :) But the clue is in the question - or if you prefer - the statement Alonso answers. The question is referring to the Spanish' fans feelings so I don't think I'm speculating too much when stating the answer is being directed to them as well. I also doubt that people uninterested in F1 and/or people who don't like Alonso are willing to spend their time listening to a radio interview with him.

I would like to direct your attention to the "as well" in your post. It is somewhat contradicted by your next statement, which is the one I disagree with. I'm sure the percentage of listeners who are interested in motorsports is higher when that is the subject matter, and likewise with Alonso's fans, but they certainly won't be the only listeners. But what is your point anyway? That Alonso's message would have been different if directed at a different target audience?

The actual quotes are fine, except for that Alonso is softening up his statements with words like "perhaps" and "maybe" - which are omitted in the translation. But OK.

My main problem is the stating of "Alonso says" and "Alonso said". Alonso haven't said these things at all, it's a journalist's interpretation of what Alonso said. And nothing wrong with spicing it up a bit when we are at it, eh? Adding a little bit of this and a little bit of that. What Alonso actually said is far too boring and hadn't made any article at all. The article isn't a lie, and I never claimed it was. But it has a spin on it that I find uncomfortable and unworthy of a serious motorsport website.

"X says" and "X said" followed by a precis or a summary of a salient point, or even a paraphrase or interpretation, is standard practise. Putting a "spin" is generally considered to mean being deliberately misleading, which is not something I think Autosport generally does, or has done in this case. It is probably true that Autosport has emphasised a point that was not Alonso's intended one, but that is not bad journalism.

#6314 as65p

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:28

Just reading between your lines:

If someone like Frank Williams or even Boullier :D who haven't worked with FA btw say something "bad" about Fernando --> They are completely right for telling the truth -> "I hate Alonso and I therefore like what I read" :up:

If someone like Stoddart, Briatore, Whitmarsh or Domenicalli say something good about FA --> They must be completely wrong -> "I hate Alonso. Alonso is simply a [censored]" :down:

:stoned:


You have to cut a Hamilton fan some slack. I mean, by the standards they inventend themselves in 2007, Alonso totally beat Lewis into the ground this season, he's ahead in the WDC table by real points :eek: not just number of 5th places or something. And that in a car Hamiltons own team believes to have been better than the Ferrari. That's devastating... :cry:

So, taking all that into account, please be gentle to fed up, will you?

:)

#6315 DarthRonzo

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:47

Just reading between your lines:
"QUOTE (fed up @ Dec 3 2010, 00:11)
You mean his friends at Renault that asked Petrov to step aside and make his life easier?
Yes Ferrari are his friends especially while Santander are paying the bills "

If someone like Frank Williams or even Boullier :D who haven't worked with FA btw say something "bad" about Fernando --> They are completely right for telling the truth -> "I hate Alonso and I therefore like what I read" :up:

If someone like Stoddart, Briatore, Whitmarsh or Domenicalli say something good about FA --> They must be completely wrong -> "I hate Alonso. Alonso is simply a [censored]" :down:

:stoned:

:eek: You've managed to read it all between those two lines ?!

Amazing :up:

#6316 kosmos

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:29

rarely acknowledges anybody and seems very uncommunicative


Silly comment, maybe he is uncommunicative with other people in the paddock from other teams, but not with his team and other drivers like Webber, Kubica, Trulli... that's for sure. Rarely acknowledges?, :drunk: . I can find dozens and dozens of quotes from him acknowledging the team, sometimes is good to step out of your cocoon Sir Williams.

#6317 Smile17

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:34

Silly comment, maybe he is uncommunicative with other people in the paddock from other teams, but not with his team and other drivers like Webber, Kubica, Trulli... that's for sure. Rarely acknowledges?, :drunk: . I can find dozens and dozens of quotes from him acknowledging the team, sometimes is good to step out of your cocoon Sir Williams.


As Gascoyne once said: 'If he respects you, you're in for life' 'If he doesn't, you don't exist' I think it says a lot about him..




#6318 as65p

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:01

As Gascoyne once said: 'If he respects you, you're in for life' 'If he doesn't, you don't exist' I think it says a lot about him..


I can totally relate to that attitude. Only downside is, a lot of those who "don't exist" will be pissed at you for life...  ;)

#6319 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:03

I can totally relate to that attitude. Only downside is, a lot of those who "don't exist" will be pissed at you for life... ;)


I suppose how you view that attitude depends on the 'criteria' he uses for respect.

For example if he doesn't respect a decent journo for criticising him in an objective piece that would be silly.
Not respecting the news of the world hack who baits him at every turn would be fair enough.

Journos was just an example that sprung to mind, could apply the idea to anything.

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#6320 e34

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:10

If you would be so kind, can you point out to me the meaningful differences in the two translations? The way I read them, they appear to say essentially the same thing.
The words that Autosport "put into Alonso's mouth" are the those in quotation marks in the report - which you haven't quoted in your post. Are they wrong? If they are, to what degree, and could they be considered to be changing the meaning in any significant way?


What Alonso said in the interview was:

Q: But the feeling, at least among Spanish fans, is that the driver has been better than the machine.

A: No, I believe… we are a team, aren’t we? Probably the difference with my teammate this year has been big, maybe the biggest one I have enjoyed so far, and that makes me happy to some extent, because I came from two seasons, 2008 and 2009, in which my personal results had not been noteworthy, and in 2010 I felt great again and at ease with the car, and I think that my driving has been better than ever, and I wish I could remain at the same level next year.


I would even say that the "it makes me happy to some extent" could also be translated as "it makes me happy a little bit" or "somehow it makes me a bit happy". Actually, he never says or implies that he is over the moon with happiness. In any case, excerpting two quotes from the above by saying

Fernando Alonso says he took great satisfaction from his margin of superiority over Ferrari team-mate Felipe Massa this season, with the Spaniard seeing the gap as evidence that he was in his best form yet.
In an interview with Onda Cero radio, Alonso said that beating Massa by the margin that he did - with Alonso qualifying in front 15 times in 19 races and out-scoring his team-mate by 108 points - showed he had raised his game in 2010.

"It's probably the biggest gap that I have ever had to a team-mate and that makes me happy because of the results that I've had over the past years," said Alonso. "My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year."




would not take you far in Journalism 101. Lets try another introduction to the quotes:

Fernando Alonso says in 2010 he felt great again, after the lackluster results he got in 2008 and 2009; he felt at easy with the car, had a big gap with his teammate, and considers his driving was better than ever.
In an interview with Onda Cero radio, Alonso denied that his driving was miles better than his car, as some of his Spanish fans feel. However, he said that he wished he could keep his driving at the same level next year.

"It's probably the biggest gap that I have ever had to a team-mate and that makes me happy because of the results that I've had over the past years," said Alonso. "My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year."


If you take highlights from a statement, and you make an introduction to those highlights, it is fair to believe that that introduction summarizes what the interviewee has said. Spinning may be right when you include the whole statement verbatim (whether or not you can consider a translated statement as a verbatim quote is another question, but let's suppose that you can), but if you don't include the full statement, you should not spin your own conclusions, and put them into the mouth of the interviewee, by saying "he said he took great satisfaction" (he didn't say that), "the spaniard saw the gap as proof evidence of his being better than ever" (well, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but he never said a word about it in the interview) and definitely, he never said that "beating Massa by the margin that he did - with Alonso qualifying in front 15 times in 19 races and out-scoring his team-mate by 108 points - showed he had raised his game in 2010"; he said he had the impression that his driving was better than ever.

Alonso never, ever, mentioned again Massa in his interview (or in any of the other interviews he has had this weekend, as far as I know). Taking that into account, which of the above introductions seem fairer, and which one is skewed (or shows that the reporter did not understand the interview at all)?

#6321 as65p

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:14

I suppose how you view that attitude depends on the 'criteria' he uses for respect.

For example if he doesn't respect a decent journo for criticising him in an objective piece that would be silly.
Not respecting the news of the world hack who baits him at every turn would be fair enough.

Journos was just an example that sprung to mind, could apply the idea to anything.


Of course it's subjective, how could it be any other way. Also it doesn't mean he's always right, far from it.

Just saying that I prefer people who show as little false (or faked for social reasons) friendlyness as possible.

#6322 DarthRonzo

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:44

Silly comment, maybe he is uncommunicative with other people in the paddock from other teams, but not with his team and other drivers like Webber, Kubica, Trulli... that's for sure. Rarely acknowledges?, :drunk: . I can find dozens and dozens of quotes from him acknowledging the team, sometimes is good to step out of your cocoon Sir Williams.

Yes, Alonso was very communicative with Ferrari, while he was at McLaren.
Also Renault acknowledge him very highly, after winning all his WDC using them and leaving the team a present with the Crashgate.

Alonso used, screwed and discarded Renault. :o

#6323 as65p

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:56

Yes, Alonso was very communicative with Ferrari, while he was at McLaren.
Also Renault acknowledge him very highly, after winning all his WDC using them and leaving the team a present with the Crashgate.

Alonso used, screwed and discarded Renault. :o


You made me :cry:

How about raising a little charity for the poor abused people at Renault, now it's christmas time?

#6324 Slartibartfast

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:10

What Alonso said in the interview was:

Q: But the feeling, at least among Spanish fans, is that the driver has been better than the machine.

A: No, I believe… we are a team, aren’t we? Probably the difference with my teammate this year has been big, maybe the biggest one I have enjoyed so far, and that makes me happy to some extent, because I came from two seasons, 2008 and 2009, in which my personal results had not been noteworthy, and in 2010 I felt great again and at ease with the car, and I think that my driving has been better than ever, and I wish I could remain at the same level next year.


I would even say that the "it makes me happy to some extent" could also be translated as "it makes me happy a little bit" or "somehow it makes me a bit happy". Actually, he never says or implies that he is over the moon with happiness. In any case, excerpting two quotes from the above by saying

Fernando Alonso says he took great satisfaction from his margin of superiority over Ferrari team-mate Felipe Massa this season, with the Spaniard seeing the gap as evidence that he was in his best form yet.
In an interview with Onda Cero radio, Alonso said that beating Massa by the margin that he did - with Alonso qualifying in front 15 times in 19 races and out-scoring his team-mate by 108 points - showed he had raised his game in 2010.

"It's probably the biggest gap that I have ever had to a team-mate and that makes me happy because of the results that I've had over the past years," said Alonso. "My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year."


would not take you far in Journalism 101. Lets try another introduction to the quotes:

Fernando Alonso says in 2010 he felt great again, after the lackluster results he got in 2008 and 2009; he felt at easy with the car, had a big gap with his teammate, and considers his driving was better than ever.
In an interview with Onda Cero radio, Alonso denied that his driving was miles better than his car, as some of his Spanish fans feel. However, he said that he wished he could keep his driving at the same level next year.

"It's probably the biggest gap that I have ever had to a team-mate and that makes me happy because of the results that I've had over the past years," said Alonso. "My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year."

If you take highlights from a statement, and you make an introduction to those highlights, it is fair to believe that that introduction summarizes what the interviewee has said. Spinning may be right when you include the whole statement verbatim (whether or not you can consider a translated statement as a verbatim quote is another question, but let's suppose that you can), but if you don't include the full statement, you should not spin your own conclusions, and put them into the mouth of the interviewee, by saying "he said he took great satisfaction" (he didn't say that), "the spaniard saw the gap as proof evidence of his being better than ever" (well, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but he never said a word about it in the interview) and definitely, he never said that "beating Massa by the margin that he did - with Alonso qualifying in front 15 times in 19 races and out-scoring his team-mate by 108 points - showed he had raised his game in 2010"; he said he had the impression that his driving was better than ever.

Alonso never, ever, mentioned again Massa in his interview (or in any of the other interviews he has had this weekend, as far as I know). Taking that into account, which of the above introductions seem fairer, and which one is skewed (or shows that the reporter did not understand the interview at all)?

"I would even say that the "it makes me happy to some extent" could also be translated as "it makes me happy a little bit" or "somehow it makes me a bit happy". Actually, he never says or implies that he is over the moon with happiness." - Nor does Autosport, so why do you suggest it does? Is that dishonest, are you putting a spin on the article? Or is that just your honest interpretation of their meaning? I have no problem with the latter, it is simply a different interpretation to mine. So should I take umbrage at your suggestion that Autosport claimed Alonso was "over the moon"? Of course not. There is a parallel there.

As I posted before, but shall rephrase now, summarising an interviewee and highlighting points made are what journalism is about. Those points may not be the ones the interviewee intended to make, but that does not put the journalist in the wrong.
Simply printing an entire interview verbatim (even in translation) when that interview has been given to another media company isn't journalism, it's plagiarism. It is the journalists job to convey the salient points, along with the journalists conclusions as to the meaning and significance.

"you should not spin your own conclusions, and put them into the mouth of the interviewee, by saying "he said he took great satisfaction" (he didn't say that)" - It is standard practise to use phrases such as "he said" when paraphrasing (which, of course, requires some interpretation on the listener's part) a statement. It is unacceptable to put quotation marks around a paraphrase, but Autosport are not, so far as I am aware, guilty of that.

Autosport are entitled to write about what they think are the key points that are made in an interview, which are not necessarily the points the interviewee thinks are key.

When I was at the Customs checkpoint after flying into the country, they asked me if I had anything to declare. I told them that as there is no duty to be paid on heroin, I didn't owe them anything. The point I was trying to make to them was that I didn't have to pay duty on the contents of my suitcase so I wasn't going to give them any money. For some reason, that wasn't the point they found interesting...*



*Not a true story. I was misquoted!

#6325 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 13:13

When I was at the Customs checkpoint after flying into the country, they asked me if I had anything to declare. I told them that as there is no duty to be paid on heroin, I didn't owe them anything. The point I was trying to make to them was that I didn't have to pay duty on the contents of my suitcase so I wasn't going to give them any money. For some reason, that wasn't the point they found interesting...*



*Not a true story. I was misquoted!


Ah, so you are a heroin smuggler, then! Always thought there is something unfathomable about you.... :lol:
Just imagine you were a celebrity, what would be made out of that little story you chose for the benefit of explaining something! A true media storm!


#6326 e34

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 13:52

"I would even say that the "it makes me happy to some extent" could also be translated as "it makes me happy a little bit" or "somehow it makes me a bit happy". Actually, he never says or implies that he is over the moon with happiness." - Nor does Autosport, so why do you suggest it does?

Maybe because my Longman dictionary of contemporary English says that "over the moon" [BrE informal] means very happy, and autosport said Alonso took great satisfaction from his margin of superiority.

Is that dishonest, are you putting a spin on the article?

In a word, No. See the above.

Or is that just your honest interpretation of their meaning?

Yes it is, and I have stated why I think it is. Successfully, IMHO.

I have no problem with the latter, it is simply a different interpretation to mine.

How did you interpret it, if I am allowed to ask?

So should I take umbrage at your suggestion that Autosport claimed Alonso was "over the moon"?


I wouldn't advise you to do so, because it would mean that either you didn't know what "over the moon" meant (which is fine with me, there are lots of things I don't understand, but I usually check the meaning before getting worked up), or that you didn't read Autosport remark.


Of course not. There is a parallel there.

The only parallel I see is the possibility that autosport did not understand properly Alonso.

As I posted before, but shall rephrase now, summarising an interviewee and highlighting points made are what journalism is about. Those points may not be the ones the interviewee intended to make, but that does not put the journalist in the wrong.

I disagree. Those points must be the one made by the interviewee. The journalist may highlight where those points are incompatible with the opinion the journalist may have, but I don't think he is justified to write that the interviewee said something he didn't say. And "a bit happy" is not "greatly satisfied". And "I think that my driving was best than ever" does not mean "it was my best driving ever, as showed by how superior I was to my teammate". And Autosport said that Alonso has said that, and that is not true. Autosport may understand (IMO, wrongly) that Alonso implied that, but saying that he said it is not true.


Simply printing an entire interview verbatim (even in translation) when that interview has been given to another media company isn't journalism, it's plagiarism. It is the journalists job to convey the salient points, along with the journalists conclusions as to the meaning and significance.

And IMO, the points conveyed by autosport were wrongly reported, since they put them into Alonso's mouth, and Alonso said nothing of the sort.

"you should not spin your own conclusions, and put them into the mouth of the interviewee, by saying "he said he took great satisfaction" (he didn't say that)" - It is standard practise to use phrases such as "he said" when paraphrasing (which, of course, requires some interpretation on the listener's part) a statement. It is unacceptable to put quotation marks around a paraphrase, but Autosport are not, so far as I am aware, guilty of that.

But one thing is paraphrasing, and another thing is converting

"Probably the difference with my teammate this year has been big, maybe the biggest one I have enjoyed so far, and that makes me happy to some extent, because I came from two seasons, 2008 and 2009, in which my personal results had not been noteworthy, and in 2010 I felt great again and at ease with the car and I think that my driving has been better than ever"

into

"I am greatly satisfied for how superior I have been over Massa, as proved by the gap I have over him"


Autosport are entitled to write about what they think are the key points that are made in an interview, which are not necessarily the points the interviewee thinks are key.

And I believe I am entitled to say that didn't understand properly, or that they did a sloppy work conveying it. More so, if I can support my statements.


In any case, as I said the first time I wrote something about this matter, I believe it is a storm in a cup of tea. Alonso spent the last weekend talking non-stop to radios and newspapers. There were some good questions raised in his (newspaper) interview with Marca, but the other (radio) interviews I have heard were full of platitudes. Why from almost one hour worth of remarks are we talking about two sentences uttered while trying to downplay the notion that Alonso was head and shoulders above the car, is something that I just don't understand.

Frankly, I don't know why Alonso mentioned Massa in that answer. But if he wanted to play mind games with him, I believe he would have insisted in another interviews and would probably have been more aggressive in his statements here. In the context of the interview, I did not consider that remark noteworthy. Just a side comment while trying to explain that the car was good, and that the team made a very good job during the season.

#6327 Slartibartfast

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:22

In any case, as I said the first time I wrote something about this matter, I believe it is a storm in a cup of tea. Alonso spent the last weekend talking non-stop to radios and newspapers. There were some good questions raised in his (newspaper) interview with Marca, but the other (radio) interviews I have heard were full of platitudes. Why from almost one hour worth of remarks are we talking about two sentences uttered while trying to downplay the notion that Alonso was head and shoulders above the car, is something that I just don't understand.

Frankly, I don't know why Alonso mentioned Massa in that answer. But if he wanted to play mind games with him, I believe he would have insisted in another interviews and would probably have been more aggressive in his statements here. In the context of the interview, I did not consider that remark noteworthy. Just a side comment while trying to explain that the car was good, and that the team made a very good job during the season.

"I would even say that the "it makes me happy to some extent" could also be translated as "it makes me happy a little bit" or "somehow it makes me a bit happy". Actually, he never says or implies that he is over the moon with happiness." - Nor does Autosport, so why do you suggest it does?

Maybe because my Longman dictionary of contemporary English says that "over the moon" [BrE informal] means very happy, and autosport said Alonso took great satisfaction from his margin of superiority.

Is that dishonest, are you putting a spin on the article?

In a word, No. See the above.

Or is that just your honest interpretation of their meaning?

Yes it is, and I have stated why I think it is. Successfully, IMHO.

I have no problem with the latter, it is simply a different interpretation to mine.

How did you interpret it, if I am allowed to ask?

So should I take umbrage at your suggestion that Autosport claimed Alonso was "over the moon"?


I wouldn't advise you to do so, because it would mean that either you didn't know what "over the moon" meant (which is fine with me, there are lots of things I don't understand, but I usually check the meaning before getting worked up), or that you didn't read Autosport remark.

Of course not. There is a parallel there.

The only parallel I see is the possibility that autosport did not understand properly Alonso.

I am sorry, but I have to ask: are you being deliberately obtuse?


#6328 e34

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:33

I am sorry, but I have to ask: are you being deliberately obtuse?


No, I was trying to show you why you were wrong.

And that is where I was wrong.

But don't worry, it won't happen again.

#6329 Slartibartfast

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:56

Ah, so you are a heroin smuggler, then! Always thought there is something unfathomable about you.... :lol:
Just imagine you were a celebrity, what would be made out of that little story you chose for the benefit of explaining something! A true media storm!

Didn't you see the headline in the Magrathea Gazette?

"Award-winning Designer Conned by Afghan Flour Merchant"

What's worse... apparently there is a tax on importing flour. :(

#6330 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:13

But don't worry, it won't happen again.


It was good as long as it lasted! :wave: :up:

#6331 fabr68

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:27

Massa repeatedly said that Alonso is not any better than the teammates he beat in the past. I don't see why Alonso cannot respond to that with the end os season facts in place.

Edited by fabr68, 03 December 2010 - 16:30.


#6332 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:29

Of course it's subjective, how could it be any other way. Also it doesn't mean he's always right, far from it.

Just saying that I prefer people who show as little false (or faked for social reasons) friendlyness as possible.


I only quoted your post because it was last in that line of discussion.

And I agree with you anyway.

It's just I know people who are narrow minded, intolerant up their own arse twits who you could be described as Alonso was.

And also genuine, nice, humble and often shy guys who could be too.

That's all I meant.

#6333 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:29

Massa repeatedly said that Alonso is not any better than the teammates he beat in the past. I don't why Alonso cannot respond to that with the end os season facts in place.


That sounds juicy, any links?

#6334 fabr68

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:39

That sounds juicy, any links?


http://bleacherrepor...ore-is-he-right


#6335 as65p

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:46

I only quoted your post because it was last in that line of discussion.

And I agree with you anyway.

It's just I know people who are narrow minded, intolerant up their own arse twits who you could be described as Alonso was.

And also genuine, nice, humble and often shy guys who could be too.

That's all I meant.


All very true, the good and the bad. Yet, even in the worst case from the range of person we talk of, you always know where you stand with them. I value that very highly on my personal scale.

That's what I meant. And for what it's worth, I consider Alonso posessing both some good and some bad characteristics from our range.


#6336 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 18:37

http://bleacherrepor...ore-is-he-right


Interesting, although I'd like to see the ful interview/quotes whatever.

I suppose it's not that much of an insult given MS and kimi were his teammates!

#6337 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 18:41

All very true, the good and the bad. Yet, even in the worst case from the range of person we talk of, you always know where you stand with them. I value that very highly on my personal scale.

That's what I meant. And for what it's worth, I consider Alonso posessing both some good and some bad characteristics from our range.


I suspect more of the good than the bad.

He seems like a good guy who can act like a bit of an idiot when emotional...which is the same for everybody to a greater or lesser extent. Not many of us get exposed to the sheer amount of pressure/adrenaline/emotional highs and lows as these guys do...and we certainly don't have x million people watching us when we do nor the press/forumers dissecting are every action/word.

Annoys me when drivers get bashed, even if in the moment I might think nasty things about fred as I'm sure many alonso fans do about lewis.

Which is totally going away from what we were talking about!

#6338 Hole

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 00:00

If that's what Massa claims really, he's just shooting to his own foot. Seeing the big gap this year between him and Alonso (even having a not that good first half) and taking Massa's words as true, that would only means that he's going backwards as a driver.

#6339 robefc

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 01:12

If that's what Massa claims really, he's just shooting to his own foot. Seeing the big gap this year between him and Alonso (even having a not that good first half) and taking Massa's words as true, that would only means that he's going backwards as a driver.


I think what he's getting at is that the gap between him and Alonso is not down to him being a better driver but because of specific issues he had last season (in his eyes I mean).

Advertisement

#6340 e34

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:56

I suspect more of the good than the bad.

He seems like a good guy who can act like a bit of an idiot when emotional...which is the same for everybody to a greater or lesser extent. Not many of us get exposed to the sheer amount of pressure/adrenaline/emotional highs and lows as these guys do...and we certainly don't have x million people watching us when we do nor the press/forumers dissecting are every action/word.

Annoys me when drivers get bashed, even if in the moment I might think nasty things about fred as I'm sure many alonso fans do about lewis.

Which is totally going away from what we were talking about!


:up: It had to be a Hamilton fan the one who gave the best description of Alonso ever. :rotfl:

#6341 jetalt

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 21:49

From FIA's Gala:

http://i51.tinypic.com/a3jay0.jpg

#6342 kosmos

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:34

Posted Image

From the award ceremony.

#6343 Fontainebleau

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:07

What is that dangerous-looking thing???

#6344 as65p

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:21

What is that dangerous-looking thing???


The Max Mosley commemorative trophy?

#6345 jetalt

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:59

http://motorsport.ne.../028_medium.jpg

SV: Fernichen, are you going to congratulate me?
FA: Los coj****. The Ba**s!

:rotfl: :lol:

Note: The above, it is a noticiable graphic spanish colloquialism, a way of telling someone "certainly not!".


#6346 kosmos

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 16:53

New interview

http://www.ferrari.c.../...110&c=Video

#6347 bourbon

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 20:04

A very disappointing performance overall for Fernando this year. Alonso performed poorly under pressure quite a bit (and I do recognize that he had some good runs under pressure as well, i.e., singapore and hungary - but they were pretty outnumbered). Additionally, I felt like he allowed his emotions to get the better of him way too often throughout the season. His reputation as a driver took a tremendous hit for me as a result of his overall performance (culminating in his race behind Petrov) - despite the press largely ignoring his faux paus for some reason and focusing more on the aged battle with Hamilton, team orders and his positive strides. Admittedly, he had some bad luck, but his unforced errors were way too numerous for a man of his experience - despite the pressure. Of his 5 wins, 2 were gifted due to Vettel mechanical DNFs and 1 was a outright gift of his teammate - 21 pure luck points and that does not take into account the points garnered through non-win attrition. I still count him among the top drivers, but he lost a lot of cred with me this season. Let's see if he can improve in the next round.

Edited by bourbon, 19 December 2010 - 20:12.


#6348 P123

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 20:12

A very disappointing performance overall for Fernando this year. Alonso performed poorly under pressure all year and allowed his emotions to get the better of him. His reputation as a driver took a tremendous hit for me as a result of his overall performance (culminating in his race behind Petrov). He had some bad luck, but his unforced errors were way too numerous for a man of his experience - despite the pressure. Of his 5 wins, 2 were gifted due to Vettel mechanical DNFs and 1 was a outright gift of his teammate. I still count him among the top drivers, but he lost a lot of cred with me this season. Let's see if he can improve in the next round.


All that disappointment yet he came within one bad pit call of taking the WDC.

#6349 wj_gibson

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 20:26

A very disappointing performance overall for Fernando this year. Alonso performed poorly under pressure quite a bit (and I do recognize that he had some good runs under pressure as well, i.e., singapore and hungary - but they were pretty outnumbered). Additionally, I felt like he allowed his emotions to get the better of him way too often throughout the season. His reputation as a driver took a tremendous hit for me as a result of his overall performance (culminating in his race behind Petrov) - despite the press largely ignoring his faux paus for some reason and focusing more on the aged battle with Hamilton, team orders and his positive strides. Admittedly, he had some bad luck, but his unforced errors were way too numerous for a man of his experience - despite the pressure. Of his 5 wins, 2 were gifted due to Vettel mechanical DNFs and 1 was a outright gift of his teammate - 21 pure luck points and that does not take into account the points garnered through non-win attrition. I still count him among the top drivers, but he lost a lot of cred with me this season. Let's see if he can improve in the next round.


Everyone is entitled to a point of view, but I don't think anyone outperformed their car to the huge extent that Alonso did this season. And no one, certainly, so comprehensively destroyed his team mate (one who came within a point of the 2008 title). In a season in which all of the top candidates made mistakes, I'd personally regard Alonso as having done the best job of anyone.

#6350 robefc

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 21:19

Everyone is entitled to a point of view, but I don't think anyone outperformed their car to the huge extent that Alonso did this season. And no one, certainly, so comprehensively destroyed his team mate (one who came within a point of the 2008 title). In a season in which all of the top candidates made mistakes, I'd personally regard Alonso as having done the best job of anyone.


I can't fathom some of the posts in the Lewis and Fred related threads at the moment (with respect to the post you replied to). For me they both enhanced their reputations this year.

Incidentally the reason I mention hamilton is because, as a fan, some posts and posters in other threads are annoying me and I was amused to pop in here and see a similar post about alonso!