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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#6401 Flamini

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 15:30

Alonso has clearly been favoured since he arrived at Ferrari...


This is only your imagination. Some events suggest that this is not true - for instance Australian GP. Alonso has been favoured since half of the season when it was clear that he is faster and that he is Ferrari only chance for title. So in fact he has been favoured because he was better, right?





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#6402 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 15:45

Lol at this. As a non-Spanish, non-British person (nor in any way related to any of those two nations) I have to say that Alonso has worst reputation amongst current F1 pack except maybe Schumacher, but even that is questionable since generally speaking Schummi was correct to most of ppl except his opponents, while Alonso is usually fair driver on-track, but a total asshole otherwise :)

And in your opinion, how comes that other drivers seem to have a good relationship with Alonso, with very few (and probably to be expected  ;) ) exceptions? Other drivers with a better "press reputation" seem to have less acceptance among their peers. And how do you explain that people like Piquet Jr, Trulli or Fisichella have a good opinion of their former teammate (without calling him a saint)?

You may want to ask yourself why those who have a direct relationship with Alonso seem to like him more than those who get their information through the press...

#6403 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 15:55

Massa nearly died in 2009. I think scoring the amount of points he did, and serving the team so well in 2010 when they had done the same for him when in intensive care is remarkable. You don't win 11 grand prix through being a poor driver. Alonso has clearly been favoured since he arrived at Ferrari, whether this is down to his character or the big fat cheque Santander send Ferrari's way for having him I don't know. He is a very fast driver yes, but to suggest Massa is in his 'prime' when he is in his first season back after a life-threatening accident is silly. So Alonso beat a driver who clearly had issues with tyres (doesn't matter if it's not a technical problem, he wasn't getting the feel out of them... several other drivers had the same problem.), and whose last time driving an F1 car nearly died?

Why do people insist on putting down the other driver to make their favourite look better? Why not just be fair? Alonso beat Massa anyway so there shouldn't be a chip on your shoulder? He's a damn sight better than we saw in 2010 so I wouldn't go round gloating (or indeed just trolling) just yet.


Alonso was favoured over Massa? Then why did they let Massa test the new car first? And did you actually watch the Melbourne and Malaysian GP, where Alonso's car was almost glued to the gearbox of Massa's car without any team orders of swapping places wich in the end might costed Ferrari and Alonso a championship?

I like Massa a lot, and I think he is a great driver but the way he was destroyed by Alonso in virtually every FIA run session throughout 2010 was almost unheard of.


#6404 Anomnader

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 17:05

I like Massa a lot, and I think he is a great driver but the way he was destroyed by Alonso in virtually every FIA run session throughout 2010 was almost unheard of.



I hope you don't really think that because come off it, that is way over the top

#6405 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 18:43

I hope you don't really think that because come off it, that is way over the top



It is?

This is what i counted with three races to go:

Oct 10 2010, 09:24
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In the last 48 practise sessions over the 2010 season, the score is: 41 for Alonso, 7 for Massa.

In qualifying its 12 to Alonso, and 4 to Massa.

After 16 races Fernando has nearly twice as many points, with 206 vs Massa's 128.

Say Ferrari..you made a big mistake not signing Kimi from Sauber years ago...id say do not make the same mistake again. Kobayashi could be a fantastic driver alongside Alonso.

This post has been edited by JackTorrance: Oct 10 2010, 09:32""

The score over the whole season is:

Practise:
Alonso 48
Massa 9

Qualifying:
Alonso 15
Massa 4

Points:
Alonso 252
Massa 144

Conclusion: Massa was slaughtered by Alonso.

#6406 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 21:02

Well, I have to say that what I got out of this discussion is that I have found out about Porto Santo, of which existance I didn't know anything before and which looks like a very beautiful place and a nice holiday destination. :)

Yes, at least something good came out of this.

This whole incident is shameful and it should have never happened. He is a world known athlete, and he knows he is one of the most recognizable faces on earth (he drives for FERRARI for god's sake... that ALONE would make him dirty famous even if he didn't have any titles). Yet, he arrives to a very small place, some of the local media take some pictures (understandable... that would be a GREAT publicity stunt for them) and in a way that goes hand-to-hand with his flawed behavior, he simply decides to threaten A WHOLE COMMUNITY simply because he got taken a few pictures... They were not pushing him or anything of that sort, they were just TAKING PICS! The guy even uses his fame as the tool to execute the threat! I wonder how impressed they are in Maranello with the new stunt of their #1 paid driver...

However, as I said earlier, it is a good thing for Porto Santo, because they got free publicity this way, but once again, Alonso is showing an extreme lack of class :down:

#6407 SvenF1

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 21:53

The usual bla bla again, the stuff haters like to read etc. Like it or not, Alonso is still the most respected F1 driver and has a much better reputation than say someone like Hamilton. I know the fan boys don't want to know and yes it's stupid to even compare them.


What? :drunk:

I'd say Alonso is pretty much the least respected F1 driver. Whenever there's something illegal going on, Alonso seems to be at the center of it. Spygate, Crashgate, brake testing etc.

#6408 Zava

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 21:57

What? :drunk:

I'd say Alonso is pretty much the least respected F1 driver. Whenever there's something illegal going on, Alonso seems to be at the center of it. Spygate, Crashgate, brake testing etc.

Posted Image
:up: :wave:

#6409 Callisto

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 22:42

Posted Image
:up: :wave:

Lol

#6410 jjcale

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 22:43

.....
On the other hand Alonso suffered the same syndrome that is often attributed to Hamilton - he began to perform great only when he became a WDC underdog. Also, he choked quite badly in last race so the whole Alonso-most-complete-driver-with-his-mental-toughness showed (again) to be just a myth this season.


No driver performed well this season when in the lead (and thus when the weight of expectations was greatest). That applied to SV, LH, MW and, finally, FA. The winner of the WDC had the least expectation on him in the last race... that was just the final manifestation of the season long pattern.

#6411 as65p

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 22:55

What? :drunk:

I'd say Alonso is pretty much the least respected F1 driver. Whenever there's something illegal going on, Alonso seems to be at the center of it. Spygate, Crashgate, brake testing etc.


People need to make their minds up. Either he's Teflonso and nothing ever sticks on him, or he's the least respected F1 driver because of all those <whatever>-gates. Can't have both at the same time! :D

#6412 madrocker

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 23:02

methinks the Teflonso nick has always been a sarcastic remark

#6413 as65p

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 00:00

methinks the Teflonso nick has always been a sarcastic remark


Oh, really? :drunk:

#6414 ArtShelley

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 02:25

Massa nearly died in 2009. I think scoring the amount of points he did, and serving the team so well in 2010 when they had done the same for him when in intensive care is remarkable. You don't win 11 grand prix through being a poor driver. Alonso has clearly been favoured since he arrived at Ferrari, whether this is down to his character or the big fat cheque Santander send Ferrari's way for having him I don't know. He is a very fast driver yes, but to suggest Massa is in his 'prime' when he is in his first season back after a life-threatening accident is silly. So Alonso beat a driver who clearly had issues with tyres (doesn't matter if it's not a technical problem, he wasn't getting the feel out of them... several other drivers had the same problem.), and whose last time driving an F1 car nearly died?

Why do people insist on putting down the other driver to make their favourite look better? Why not just be fair? Alonso beat Massa anyway so there shouldn't be a chip on your shoulder? He's a damn sight better than we saw in 2010 so I wouldn't go round gloating (or indeed just trolling) just yet.


+1 Personally I think Alonso is in another class over Massa. However no one really knows for sure. In 2008, Massa beat Kimi and many suspected it was due to Kimi losing motivation and underperforming, but it was also blatantly obvious that Massa had indeed improved and could be a force. As I recall, Schumi mentioned how he had been working with Massa and imparting his knowledge and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Massa improved due to this.

As you said, we just don't know how badly the injury affected Massa, at the very least indirectly due to lost time in the car, especially considering the testing ban these days where the weekends during the season are the only way drivers get to hone and maintain their skills. Secondly, his struggle with the tyres was very obvious. Not making an excuse, as the very best drivers should adjust to the tyres, but I think Turkey and Interlagos were notable in this regard. These are tracks that Massa dominates and regardless of all his other flaws, it's roundly acknowledged that it's difficult for anyone to beat him on these tracks. Yet he was nowhere. Hence his 2010 season performance against Alonso cannot be compared in the same way as his 2007 - 2009 performances against team mates.

The danger is to write off Massa. He then has the potential to be a giant killer, if he does sort of his problems and gives his team mate a run for his money. Personally I think Alonso will destroy him in 2011, but if for any reason Massa finishes higher, it will get very interesting....

#6415 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 02:26

Alonso has clearly been favoured since he arrived at Ferrari

Nonsense. Really. There's nothing to suggest this is the case.

So Alonso beat a driver who clearly had issues with tyres

Possible, but far from 'clear'. Personally, I dont buy it.

Why do people insist on putting down the other driver to make their favourite look better? Why not just be fair? Alonso beat Massa anyway so there shouldn't be a chip on your shoulder? He's a damn sight better than we saw in 2010 so I wouldn't go round gloating (or indeed just trolling) just yet.

What kinda sucks is that if Alonso still beats Massa next year by a decent margin, people like you will still hold onto these excuses as to why it happened. While if Massa does better, you can claim to be right as well. Convenient position to be in, huh?

Personally, I think the 'chip' on his shoulder probably comes from hearing these excuses that he doesn't buy into. In a way, its devaluing what his driver accomplished this year. Personally, I feel much the same way as him in terms of how I saw the driver comparison and I'm certainly not saying that to big up Alonso anymore than I think he deserves to be bigged-up. Nor do I receive any satisfaction in belittling Massa. Its just honestly what I think happened.

#6416 ArtShelley

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 02:54

At Interlagos, Alonso out-qualified Massa by over 1.1 seconds. If you read the post-qualifying comments, Massa didn't make a mistake except that he couldn't get his tyres up to temp which he's struggled with all season.

In Turkey, Massa actually out-qualified Alonso but reading the post-qualifying comments, Alonso actually made a significant error in Q2 and missed the cut. He was faster than Massa in Q1.

Without a doubt in my mind, if Massa is comfortable with the car, he is one of the very quickest at those two tracks. In 2007, he out-qualified eventual WDC Kimi by over 2 tenths in Turkey for pole and won the race. At Interlagos the same year, he out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and moved over in the race to let Kimi win and take the WDC.

In 2008, in Turkey he again out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and won the race. Again, at Interlagos he was ahead by almost 5 tenths for pole and won the race.

In 2009, in Turkey Kimi out-qualified Massa by just half a tenth but Massa finished ahead in the race.

In 2006, in Turkey he out-qualified team mate Schumacher by almost 3 tenths for pole and won the race. At Interlagos, Schumi didn't set a Q3 time, but Massa still qualified on pole and won the race.

Based on the above, being out-qualified by a team mate at Interlagos by over 1.1 seconds in 2010 tells me that for whatever the same reason, it's not the same Massa. In fact, LdM himself said that this season it seemed like Massa's brother had turned up to the races instead. As much as I admire Alonso and think he's one of the very best on the grid now, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would not have beaten Massa by anywhere near this amount had they been team mates in 2007 to 2009.

#6417 HPT

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 03:19

At Interlagos, Alonso out-qualified Massa by over 1.1 seconds. If you read the post-qualifying comments, Massa didn't make a mistake except that he couldn't get his tyres up to temp which he's struggled with all season.

In Turkey, Massa actually out-qualified Alonso but reading the post-qualifying comments, Alonso actually made a significant error in Q2 and missed the cut. He was faster than Massa in Q1.

Without a doubt in my mind, if Massa is comfortable with the car, he is one of the very quickest at those two tracks. In 2007, he out-qualified eventual WDC Kimi by over 2 tenths in Turkey for pole and won the race. At Interlagos the same year, he out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and moved over in the race to let Kimi win and take the WDC.

In 2008, in Turkey he again out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and won the race. Again, at Interlagos he was ahead by almost 5 tenths for pole and won the race.

In 2009, in Turkey Kimi out-qualified Massa by just half a tenth but Massa finished ahead in the race.

In 2006, in Turkey he out-qualified team mate Schumacher by almost 3 tenths for pole and won the race. At Interlagos, Schumi didn't set a Q3 time, but Massa still qualified on pole and won the race.

Based on the above, being out-qualified by a team mate at Interlagos by over 1.1 seconds in 2010 tells me that for whatever the same reason, it's not the same Massa. In fact, LdM himself said that this season it seemed like Massa's brother had turned up to the races instead. As much as I admire Alonso and think he's one of the very best on the grid now, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would not have beaten Massa by anywhere near this amount had they been team mates in 2007 to 2009.


There is a pattern but unfortunately, Alonso isn't Kimi or Michael Schumacher. Actually, the only driver Massa has proven to have superiority over at 'his' tracks is Kimi. MS was 0.8 sec up on Massa in Q2 and took on a lot more fuel for Q3, but he made a mistake at Turn 1. The only thing you have shown is that Massa is much better than Kimi at Turkey and Brazil. To extrapolate that into that meaning he is not the same driver anymore because he qualified 1.1 sec behind Alonso in 2010 is a bit far-fetched.

Edited by HPT, 03 January 2011 - 03:20.


#6418 ArtShelley

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 03:53

There is a pattern but unfortunately, Alonso isn't Kimi or Michael Schumacher. Actually, the only driver Massa has proven to have superiority over at 'his' tracks is Kimi. MS was 0.8 sec up on Massa in Q2 and took on a lot more fuel for Q3, but he made a mistake at Turn 1. The only thing you have shown is that Massa is much better than Kimi at Turkey and Brazil. To extrapolate that into that meaning he is not the same driver anymore because he qualified 1.1 sec behind Alonso in 2010 is a bit far-fetched.


This is what Schumi said after quali "I am very happy for Felipe on getting the first pole of his career. He drove an exceptional lap and I have to say I don’t think I could have beaten him, even if I had not made any mistakes."

I acknowledge what you are saying, but put it this way - I cannot even begin to imagine even an unmotivated Kimi qualifying 1.1 sec behind Alonso. I personally believe that Alonso is the superior driver over Kimi, but Kimi has never been anything but fast. If Massa can beat Kimi there, that says more about the virtues of Massa at those two tracks, rather any negatives about Kimi. In turn, if Alonso beats Massa by 1.1 sec at Interlagos, it says more about Massa being out-of-form rather than an unrealistic level of dominance by Alonso over a driver - Massa - who is widely reputed to be a specialist at that track. I have no doubt that there are tracks that Alonso would dominate Massa on pace. Istanbul and Interlagoes aren't one of those.

#6419 HPT

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 05:17

This is what Schumi said after quali "I am very happy for Felipe on getting the first pole of his career. He drove an exceptional lap and I have to say I don’t think I could have beaten him, even if I had not made any mistakes."

I acknowledge what you are saying, but put it this way - I cannot even begin to imagine even an unmotivated Kimi qualifying 1.1 sec behind Alonso. I personally believe that Alonso is the superior driver over Kimi, but Kimi has never been anything but fast. If Massa can beat Kimi there, that says more about the virtues of Massa at those two tracks, rather any negatives about Kimi. In turn, if Alonso beats Massa by 1.1 sec at Interlagos, it says more about Massa being out-of-form rather than an unrealistic level of dominance by Alonso over a driver - Massa - who is widely reputed to be a specialist at that track. I have no doubt that there are tracks that Alonso would dominate Massa on pace. Istanbul and Interlagoes aren't one of those.


I'm not sure if MS meant what he said. After all, Massa was fully expected (we even saw how much he slowed in the dying laps of the race in the event MS overtook Alonso) to move aside for him to hand him the win. Better to have said what he said than "I was quicker, he just got lucky that I made a mistake."

I think the inconsistencies in a driver's performance is largely due to the fact that certain drivers, as in Massa, Kimi and Button, needed the cars to suit them whereas other drivers, such as Alonso and Hamilton, can adapt to any car they are given. Perhaps the 2010 Ferrari really didn't suit Massa, and that exaggerated the performance gap between him and Alonso. It could be a ton of other reasons why Alonso qualified 1.1 sec ahead of Massa at Interlagos, but your theory of it being a Massa being a specialist at that track based on his form over Kimi just doesn't hold water. For the record, Kimi was also widely reputed to be the quickest driver in F1...until he was paired with Massa.

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#6420 ArtShelley

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 08:43

I'm not sure if MS meant what he said. After all, Massa was fully expected (we even saw how much he slowed in the dying laps of the race in the event MS overtook Alonso) to move aside for him to hand him the win. Better to have said what he said than "I was quicker, he just got lucky that I made a mistake."

I think the inconsistencies in a driver's performance is largely due to the fact that certain drivers, as in Massa, Kimi and Button, needed the cars to suit them whereas other drivers, such as Alonso and Hamilton, can adapt to any car they are given. Perhaps the 2010 Ferrari really didn't suit Massa, and that exaggerated the performance gap between him and Alonso. It could be a ton of other reasons why Alonso qualified 1.1 sec ahead of Massa at Interlagos, but your theory of it being a Massa being a specialist at that track based on his form over Kimi just doesn't hold water. For the record, Kimi was also widely reputed to be the quickest driver in F1...until he was paired with Massa.


Well I don't think it's worth speculating that Schumi was lying. Personally I think Schumi meant exactly what he said.

I agree with part of the second para of your post i.e that Massa and Button need cars that suit them, whilst Alonso and Hamilton do not.

Massa is widely known as a specialist at Istanbul and Interlagos, recognised by other drivers and sports journalists equally. Not an easily given tag for a driver that is not regarded highly in general. Just google "Massa specialist", and "Istanbul" or "Interlagos" to see. In fact, if you google up "Alonso" or "Hamilton", "specialist" and "Istanbul" or "Interlagos", the articles brought up still point to Massa being the specialist! Wiki too, under Istanbul circuit, mentions that Massa is a specialist there. Not saying Wiki is the be-all or end-all, just that all of these combined point towards it being common knowledge that Massa outperforms at these two tracks.

But finally you actually said it yourself - that Kimi was also widely reputed to be the quickest driver in F1..until he was paired with Massa. Sure this could mean Kimi was somewhat overrated, but it also implies that Massa is somewhat underrated. We come back to the part of your post that I wholly agree with - that when drivers like Massa or Jenson aren't fully comfortable with the car, they get destroyed by drivers like Alonso or Hamilton in the same equipment. But when you start seeing 1.1 sec gaps at tracks that the slower driver has previously been known as a specialist on, it strongly suggests that the magnitude of that gap isn't primarily due to the raw speed of the faster driver. I tend to agree with you above where you say there could be a ton of other reasons why Alonso qualified 1.1 sec ahead of Massa at Interlagos; that's my point exactly.

#6421 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:15

Nonsense. Really. There's nothing to suggest this is the case.


Omg, did you not watch the season? He has clearly been favored. Rightfully so - but clearly favored none the less... It's prob like the situation at mclaren where he demanded number 1 status except Ferrari gave it to him where mclaren demanded driver parity...

#6422 Flamini

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:22

Omg, did you not watch the season? He has clearly been favored. Rightfully so - but clearly favored none the less... It's prob like the situation at mclaren where he demanded number 1 status except Ferrari gave it to him where mclaren demanded driver parity...


But has he clearly been favoured since the start of the season? Name 5 events from Bahrain to Silverstone when he has been favoured, because i missed something.

#6423 as65p

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:43

Omg, did you not watch the season? He has clearly been favored. Rightfully so - but clearly favored none the less... It's prob like the situation at mclaren where he demanded number 1 status except Ferrari gave it to him where mclaren demanded driver parity...


... whereas McLaren had decided to favour his teammate, more like.

#6424 kosmos

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:45

It begins.

http://motorsport.ne...-paparazzi.html

Waiting for the british tabloids to portrait Alonso as the son of satan.

#6425 as65p

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:53

It begins.

http://motorsport.ne...-paparazzi.html

Waiting for the british tabloids to portrait Alonso as the son of satan.


He-he, I like it.

He's behaving exactly like someone refusing to become a media whore just because he's famous. :up:

#6426 SvenF1

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:06

Alonso was favoured over Massa? Then why did they let Massa test the new car first? And did you actually watch the Melbourne and Malaysian GP, where Alonso's car was almost glued to the gearbox of Massa's car without any team orders of swapping places wich in the end might costed Ferrari and Alonso a championship?


So if they don't simple tell Massa to let Alonso through, there can absolutely be no favouritism? :rolleyes:

They aren't stupid at Ferrari. They wanted the stunning Alonso of 2005 and 2006 when everything went his way and he was the clear number 1. NOT the 2007 Alonso when he actually had to fight against his team mate and everything just blew up (including a certain WDC). That's not how Alonso works, he simply could not take it.

Ferrari made damn sure it was gonna be just like it was at Renault, not like it was at McLaren.

#6427 HPT

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:09

Well I don't think it's worth speculating that Schumi was lying. Personally I think Schumi meant exactly what he said.

I agree with part of the second para of your post i.e that Massa and Button need cars that suit them, whilst Alonso and Hamilton do not.

Massa is widely known as a specialist at Istanbul and Interlagos, recognised by other drivers and sports journalists equally. Not an easily given tag for a driver that is not regarded highly in general. Just google "Massa specialist", and "Istanbul" or "Interlagos" to see. In fact, if you google up "Alonso" or "Hamilton", "specialist" and "Istanbul" or "Interlagos", the articles brought up still point to Massa being the specialist! Wiki too, under Istanbul circuit, mentions that Massa is a specialist there. Not saying Wiki is the be-all or end-all, just that all of these combined point towards it being common knowledge that Massa outperforms at these two tracks.

But finally you actually said it yourself - that Kimi was also widely reputed to be the quickest driver in F1..until he was paired with Massa. Sure this could mean Kimi was somewhat overrated, but it also implies that Massa is somewhat underrated. We come back to the part of your post that I wholly agree with - that when drivers like Massa or Jenson aren't fully comfortable with the car, they get destroyed by drivers like Alonso or Hamilton in the same equipment. But when you start seeing 1.1 sec gaps at tracks that the slower driver has previously been known as a specialist on, it strongly suggests that the magnitude of that gap isn't primarily due to the raw speed of the faster driver. I tend to agree with you above where you say there could be a ton of other reasons why Alonso qualified 1.1 sec ahead of Massa at Interlagos; that's my point exactly.


We are actually in agreement about a lot of points. There is a real danger that we're actually not debating anything after all here  ;)

Anyways, my point about Kimi is that how a reputation can be so very wrong. Pundits, commentators, even team bosses IIRC gave Kimi the tag, but it was proven not to be after pairing with Massa. I think we both agree that Massa's deficit to Alonso at Interlagos could be attributed to a host of factors. The only thing I do not agree with is that because the deficit is so huge, it must be because there is something wrong with Massa. Well, in a sense there is - he isn't as well-suited to the F10 as he was in the previous Ferraris where his reputation was made. It doesn't matter if a search on Google comes up with Massa or that Wiki lists Massa as The Interlagos specialist. As the example I have given re Kimi, it means nothing really.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that the gap to Alonso is solely due to raw speed. Just what is raw speed anyway? A driver tends to be quicker if the car suits him and not so much when the car doesn't. What I'm suggesting is that the combination of factors - be it adaptability or raw speed or whatever it is - created that deficit. And the only thing that I really do not agree with you is that Massa is somehow an Interlagos specialist just because he has done well against one driver - Kimi - at that circuit. I refer you to the Kimi example one more time.

#6428 Lotusseven

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:11

It begins.

http://motorsport.ne...-paparazzi.html

Waiting for the british tabloids to portrait Alonso as the son of satan.


:lol:

Hopefully Luca di M ain´t get to know about this. I think it´s not so popular in his big Ferrari world, because Fernando is one of the faces outwards.


#6429 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:22

It begins.

http://motorsport.ne...-paparazzi.html

Waiting for the british tabloids to portrait Alonso as the son of satan.


Huh, paps :evil: :down:

They should fly them all half way back to the mainland IMO.

I'm with Fernando, though maybe he was being a bit optimistic holidaying so close to home, given that he is quite a private character.

#6430 Smile17

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 11:01

Ferrari made damn sure it was gonna be just like it was at Renault, not like it was at McLaren.


I'm not so sure about the first part, but you're damn right in the second part. :lol:
Ferrari would never let that happen and they said that, openly.


#6431 ArtShelley

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 11:04

We are actually in agreement about a lot of points. There is a real danger that we're actually not debating anything after all here ;)

Anyways, my point about Kimi is that how a reputation can be so very wrong. Pundits, commentators, even team bosses IIRC gave Kimi the tag, but it was proven not to be after pairing with Massa. I think we both agree that Massa's deficit to Alonso at Interlagos could be attributed to a host of factors. The only thing I do not agree with is that because the deficit is so huge, it must be because there is something wrong with Massa. Well, in a sense there is - he isn't as well-suited to the F10 as he was in the previous Ferraris where his reputation was made. It doesn't matter if a search on Google comes up with Massa or that Wiki lists Massa as The Interlagos specialist. As the example I have given re Kimi, it means nothing really.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that the gap to Alonso is solely due to raw speed. Just what is raw speed anyway? A driver tends to be quicker if the car suits him and not so much when the car doesn't. What I'm suggesting is that the combination of factors - be it adaptability or raw speed or whatever it is - created that deficit. And the only thing that I really do not agree with you is that Massa is somehow an Interlagos specialist just because he has done well against one driver - Kimi - at that circuit. I refer you to the Kimi example one more time.


I do see what you're saying, and of course, I have no evidence other than anecdotal so I don't claim to be "right". But I don't agree that Kimi's reputation was so very wrong. It was never "proven not to be", because with that statement you are automatically assuming that it is proven fact that Massa is a poor driver. Kimi's reputation hasn't actually been tarnished all that much just due to his pairing and performance against Massa. Teams still want him, it's a question of price and also which team he is happy to drive for. If anything, prior to his accident, Massa's reputation had indeed gone up. Of course most still believed that Kimi was down on motivation, but most still acknowledged that Massa had also developed as a driver.

I agree that a driver tends to be quicker when the car suits him and so on. My point simply being that Massa being down 1.1 sec, with no errors, on a track that other drivers, the press, most fans etc acknowledge as one that he is a specialist at and indeed one that is his home track, indicates that Felipe may actually be telling the truth when he talks about the tyres. My post is basically a refute of other posts claiming that Felipe is using tyres as an excuse. I'm simply saying that had the gap between him and Alonso been smaller at Interlagos, relative to other tracks, I would say yes Massa could be making excuses. But since it is opposite, I don't think it's fair claiming Massa is making up excuses.

As an analogy, consider Nadal before his current amazing performances and when he used to excel mainly on clay courts. If suddenly he starts to perform poorly on most courts and says it's because he's got an injury, but still wins everything on clay, one could be forgiven thinking that the injury could be an excuse. However if he performs poorly on clay as well, there just might be some truth to his claim.

I don't think that in 2010 we saw the same Massa we've seen before. Aside from the rude way LdM said it was as if Massa's brother had turned up to drive, he's getting clear hints from the Ferrari camp that his seat is at risk if he doesn't improve his performance. Ferrari have no reason to expect him to improve his performance unless they know that he underperformed relative to himself this year.

Anyway this thread is about Alonso and I'm at severe risk of being told off by the mods as all I've talked about is Massa with only an indirect link to Alonso. This really belongs in the Alonso vs Massa thread and I'm happy to continue discussing there. Thank you for a civil and enjoyable discussion by the way! :-)

Edited by ArtShelley, 03 January 2011 - 11:06.


#6432 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 11:15

I'm not so sure about the first part, but you're damn right in the second part. :lol:
Ferrari would never let that happen and they said that, openly.


Presumably they'd have got behind the points leader :D .

Hungary would definitely have been avoided then...

#6433 JustinCider

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 11:56

Huh, paps :evil: :down:

They should fly them all half way back to the mainland IMO.

I'm with Fernando, though maybe he was being a bit optimistic holidaying so close to home, given that he is quite a private character.


His comments were totally out of order. No two ways about it. All drivers get pissed off with the press from time to time, some even occasionally lashing out against them, but to threaten to try and destroy the reputation of a resort shows not only what a bully Alonso is, but also how overinflated his opinion of himself is.

It would appear that Alonso behaves no differently in his private life than he does in his professional one - ie poorly.

#6434 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 12:23

His comments were totally out of order. No two ways about it. All drivers get pissed off with the press from time to time, some even occasionally lashing out against them, but to threaten to try and destroy the reputation of a resort shows not only what a bully Alonso is, but also how overinflated his opinion of himself is.

It would appear that Alonso behaves no differently in his private life than he does in his professional one - ie poorly.


Well I dunno, I expect F1 drivers to have some aggression in them and personally I see paps as a perfect target, since they're pretty aggressive, and selfish, themselves.

I see your point about threatening the resort, but it's quite likely a valid threat in many ways - if the resort was allowing it as a means of getting publicity then they're part of it, and conversely if they want to be a destination for celebs then they need to buck up their ideas.

#6435 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 13:49

... whereas McLaren had decided to favour his teammate, more like.

Hahaha you still pushing that rubbish??

#6436 Watkins74

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 13:57

Well I dunno, I expect F1 drivers to have some aggression in them and personally I see paps as a perfect target, since they're pretty aggressive, and selfish, themselves.

I see your point about threatening the resort, but it's quite likely a valid threat in many ways - if the resort was allowing it as a means of getting publicity then they're part of it, and conversely if they want to be a destination for celebs then they need to buck up their ideas.

:up:



#6437 speng

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 14:30

... whereas McLaren had decided to favour his teammate, more like.

The quote below is from Alonso after he was released from Mclaren so stop the nonsense.

“I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team, and people say a lot of things in the heat of the battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win.”


#6438 noikeee

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 14:41

Erm and what are the local authorities they supposed to do, outlaw cameras for a week? Close all public places that Alonso visits? Porto Santo isn't a "resort", it's a small island with its own local population, its local businesses and a few private hotels.

I just read in the newspaper that there was another incident yesterday. Some random guy passing by photographed Alonso's wife Raquel, and she went to chase him. He ran away to some house, she went in looking for him, broke into the house and took photos of the house. Then a woman that owned the house got pissed off, they got into an argument demanding each other's photos to be returned, and the woman hit Raquel! Later the police arrived at the local woman's request, complaining that Raquel was breaking into her house, but ultimately neither party decided to make a formal complaint against each other. Apparently the local mayor also showed up to try to calm things down.

Here's a link to the story (in portuguese) -> http://www.dnoticias...sao-de-uma-casa

It's a bit sad that this has gone this way, this is certainly a missed opportunity for the island to get a little bit of positive PR, but I'm not sure who has the larger share of the blame..

Edited by paranoik0, 03 January 2011 - 14:51.


#6439 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 14:51

Erm and what are the local authorities they supposed to do, outlaw cameras for a week? Close all public places that Alonso visits? Porto Santo isn't a "resort", it's a small island with its own local population, its local businesses and a few private hotels.

I just read in the newspaper that there was another incident yesterday. Some random guy passing by photographed Alonso's wife Raquel, and she went to chase him. He ran away to some house, she went in looking for him, broke into the house and took photos of the house. Then a woman that owned the house got pissed off, they got into an argument demanding each other's photos to be returned, and the woman hit Raquel! Later the police arrived at the local woman's request, complaining that Raquel was breaking into her house, but ultimately neither party decided to make a formal complaint against each other. Apparently the local mayor also showed up to try to calm things down.

It's a bit sad that this has gone this way, this is certainly a missed opportunity for the island to get a little bit of positive PR, but I'm not sure who has the larger share of the blame..


That does sound a bit weird, I must admit :eek: . Why was Raquel pissed? Wasn't she a singer, that's surely ALL about fame and invites photographs, more that a sports star.

Yeah if it's not a resort then fair enough, I might see it differently to my first impression. Maybe the Alonsos have an adjustment to make now he's in Ferrari.

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#6440 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 15:32

The quote below is from Alonso after he was released from Mclaren so stop the nonsense.

“I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team, and people say a lot of things in the heat of the battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win.”

Shhhh you'll spoil the illusion..

#6441 robefc

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:20

Huh, paps :evil: :down:

They should fly them all half way back to the mainland IMO.

I'm with Fernando, though maybe he was being a bit optimistic holidaying so close to home, given that he is quite a private character.


I'm no fan of paps but they are not the ones buying the magazines and papers that print the pics.

Some celebs seem to manage much better than others with them, not sure if it's down to how they behave with them, their pr people or just that they're not in demand as 'gossip fodder'.

#6442 Smile17

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:30

The quote below is from Alonso after he was released from Mclaren so stop the nonsense.

“I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team, and people say a lot of things in the heat of the battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win.”


Of course he said that afterwards. But don't forget that that was one of the many things he said about his time at McLaren. A selective chosen quote from you doesn't proof otherwise. Let's not turn this into a 07 thread again, it's in the past and it looks like some still have different opinions about it just to suit their agenda.

Erm and what are the local authorities they supposed to do, outlaw cameras for a week? Close all public places that Alonso visits? Porto Santo isn't a "resort", it's a small island with its own local population, its local businesses and a few private hotels.

I just read in the newspaper that there was another incident yesterday. Some random guy passing by photographed Alonso's wife Raquel, and she went to chase him. He ran away to some house, she went in looking for him, broke into the house and took photos of the house. Then a woman that owned the house got pissed off, they got into an argument demanding each other's photos to be returned, and the woman hit Raquel! Later the police arrived at the local woman's request, complaining that Raquel was breaking into her house, but ultimately neither party decided to make a formal complaint against each other. Apparently the local mayor also showed up to try to calm things down.

Here's a link to the story (in portuguese) -> http://www.dnoticias...sao-de-uma-casa

It's a bit sad that this has gone this way, this is certainly a missed opportunity for the island to get a little bit of positive PR, but I'm not sure who has the larger share of the blame..


If that's true it's hilarious!

#6443 velgajski1

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:32

Erm and what are the local authorities they supposed to do, outlaw cameras for a week? Close all public places that Alonso visits? Porto Santo isn't a "resort", it's a small island with its own local population, its local businesses and a few private hotels.

I just read in the newspaper that there was another incident yesterday. Some random guy passing by photographed Alonso's wife Raquel, and she went to chase him. He ran away to some house, she went in looking for him, broke into the house and took photos of the house. Then a woman that owned the house got pissed off, they got into an argument demanding each other's photos to be returned, and the woman hit Raquel! Later the police arrived at the local woman's request, complaining that Raquel was breaking into her house, but ultimately neither party decided to make a formal complaint against each other. Apparently the local mayor also showed up to try to calm things down.

Here's a link to the story (in portuguese) -> http://www.dnoticias...sao-de-uma-casa

It's a bit sad that this has gone this way, this is certainly a missed opportunity for the island to get a little bit of positive PR, but I'm not sure who has the larger share of the blame..


Those lunatics should be aware that its exactly the media that gives money into their pockets. If you want quiet life you don't become F1 driver or singer. Weirdos...

#6444 JackTorrance

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:40

I do see what you're saying, and of course, I have no evidence other than anecdotal so I don't claim to be "right". But I don't agree that Kimi's reputation was so very wrong. It was never "proven not to be", because with that statement you are automatically assuming that it is proven fact that Massa is a poor driver. Kimi's reputation hasn't actually been tarnished all that much just due to his pairing and performance against Massa. Teams still want him, it's a question of price and also which team he is happy to drive for. If anything, prior to his accident, Massa's reputation had indeed gone up. Of course most still believed that Kimi was down on motivation, but most still acknowledged that Massa had also developed as a driver.

I agree that a driver tends to be quicker when the car suits him and so on. My point simply being that Massa being down 1.1 sec, with no errors, on a track that other drivers, the press, most fans etc acknowledge as one that he is a specialist at and indeed one that is his home track, indicates that Felipe may actually be telling the truth when he talks about the tyres. My post is basically a refute of other posts claiming that Felipe is using tyres as an excuse. I'm simply saying that had the gap between him and Alonso been smaller at Interlagos, relative to other tracks, I would say yes Massa could be making excuses. But since it is opposite, I don't think it's fair claiming Massa is making up excuses.

As an analogy, consider Nadal before his current amazing performances and when he used to excel mainly on clay courts. If suddenly he starts to perform poorly on most courts and says it's because he's got an injury, but still wins everything on clay, one could be forgiven thinking that the injury could be an excuse. However if he performs poorly on clay as well, there just might be some truth to his claim.

I don't think that in 2010 we saw the same Massa we've seen before. Aside from the rude way LdM said it was as if Massa's brother had turned up to drive, he's getting clear hints from the Ferrari camp that his seat is at risk if he doesn't improve his performance. Ferrari have no reason to expect him to improve his performance unless they know that he underperformed relative to himself this year.

Anyway this thread is about Alonso and I'm at severe risk of being told off by the mods as all I've talked about is Massa with only an indirect link to Alonso. This really belongs in the Alonso vs Massa thread and I'm happy to continue discussing there. Thank you for a civil and enjoyable discussion by the way! :-)



I do remember Massa blaming tyres over one lap pace, but not during the race. And it was often there that he got beaten by Alonso too. Regarding to your comparisments of pace on Turkey and Interlagos..i would agree that Massa seems to like those tracks a lot. But a champion is fast on all tracks, not just two. In the past people questioned DC because he was the same..quick on some tracks, lacking on others vs Mika. Anyway, Ferrari devoted time to suspension and how to work tyres better in 2009. Then, in 2010 Massa got the first opportunity over Alonso to test the F10 and set it up to his liking. If during the season it then appears that Alonso gets the most out of them I think that Massa shouldnt complain too much. He simply wasnt there, or to use montezemolos phrase, it was like his brother was driving. Wich, btw, wasnt that harsh. Montezemolo used the same phrase for Kimi's off season in 2008.

#6445 pRy

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:46

It begins.

http://motorsport.ne...-paparazzi.html

Waiting for the british tabloids to portrait Alonso as the son of satan.


Rough translation:

'I am a member of the Ferrari team now and you know what that means? That means if anyone takes a photo of me, or my wife, they will wake up the next morning with a horse head in their bed. And if they take another photo of me after that, they sleep with the fishes. Understood? Good.'

#6446 revmeister

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 16:51

Those lunatics should be aware that its exactly the media that gives money into their pockets. If you want quiet life you don't become F1 driver or singer. Weirdos...


What Alonso and his wife don't have the right to get away for a quiet vacation?

Let's put this into perspective.

They choose to a tiny place off the beaten track that has no major media outlets. Obviously word has got around and some local photographers are out to make a few bucks, but they havejust screwed it up for Porto Santo because who will ever go there after all this fuss? Alonso even takes the time to warn them that what they are doing is wrong for the community.

After all this Alonso's wife gets assaulted? Nice place.

This is the fault of whoever shot off their mouth about the identity of their guests.



#6447 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 17:03

I'm no fan of paps but they are not the ones buying the magazines and papers that print the pics.

Some celebs seem to manage much better than others with them, not sure if it's down to how they behave with them, their pr people or just that they're not in demand as 'gossip fodder'.


Well yes the publications are part of it. Still, it's the most selfish people they attract, so as a group the paps still deserve to be scorned IMO, the ultimate takers.

Yeah fame suits some a lot more than others, for sure. Kimi, Princess Di, Fernando, not so much. Raquel too apparently :confused: . Sebi, Jense, Lewis for example are more comfortable with it. Though Lewis drew the line at being followed into the loo IIRC :lol: .

Really Fernando is going to have to think again about where he goes, now, anyway. Colorado for example, he'd have no problem...

#6448 JackTorrance

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 17:12

Rough translation:

'I am a member of the Ferrari team now and you know what that means? That means if anyone takes a photo of me, or my wife, they will wake up the next morning with a horse head in their bed. And if they take another photo of me after that, they sleep with the fishes. Understood? Good.'



I heard Fernando and Raquel were seen clubbing baby seals on the beach! And after that tried to set fire to an elderly home!

#6449 Anomnader

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 17:21

Alonso even takes the time to warn them that what they are doing is wrong for the community.

After all this Alonso's wife gets assaulted? Nice place.

This is the fault of whoever shot off their mouth about the identity of their guests.


Warn them??? Threaten you mean?

Alonso wife was assaulted after she broke in and trespassed into someones home.

The community is innocent and should have told them to sling their hook.

#6450 speng

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 17:35

Of course he said that afterwards. But don't forget that that was one of the many things he said about his time at McLaren. A selective chosen quote from you doesn't proof otherwise. Let's not turn this into a 07 thread again, it's in the past and it looks like some still have different opinions about it just to suit their agenda, this thread is about Alonso is it not?

Alonso said this in direct referrence to the claim of favouritism within the team, are you suggesting he was lying? If you have anything concrete to offer to the debate please post as this is a thread on Alonso

for the full context follow the link http://www.autoexpre...os_f1_move.html

Edited by speng, 03 January 2011 - 17:46.