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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#6551 ArtShelley

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 16:30

Hm, it certainly would be fun to discuss 2007 with roles reversed, i.e. me trying to prove that Alonso is reckless and bastardly at times... :p

But I reckon we won't get very far with it, so I'll leave it to you to figure it out, I'm sure you can. :wave:


Bastardly I've seen, but reckless very rarely. In fact the only time I really recall his will to win causing him to be reckless is Canada 2007 where he lost the plot. Actually the term "reckless" in the context of "will to win" is much more applicable to the early exploits of Lewis, though he seems to be getting better at that each year (no I don't count either Monza or Singapore as examples of recklessness, but rather racing incidents for which he was clearly at fault at Monza, but not reckless a la Interlagos 2007 or Fuji 2008). But yes, coming back to Alonso, he's rarely reckless as far as I remember, but maybe you have more examples.

reckless ~ without caution, careless.

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#6552 ArtShelley

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 16:31

PS. why do you say "with roles reversed"? What role....

#6553 as65p

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 16:47

reckless ~ without caution, careless.


I'll go with option b) from here:

reck·less

a. Heedless or careless.
b. Headstrong; rash.

which brings us to

headstrong

self-willed; obstinate

Satisfied? Else let's meet over st some semantics forum, shall we?  ;)


#6554 kosmos

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 17:08

Fernando is going to change his driving style for next season.

http://www.revistasc...e-cambiara-3268http://www.revistasc...e-cambiara-3268

#6555 fabr68

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 17:23

Alonso is the only guy out there that has won multiple races in three different teams. If the car is fast, he will adapt.

#6556 as65p

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 17:26

Alonso is the only guy out there that has won multiple races in three different teams. If the car is fast, he will adapt.


From all we've seen so far, of course he will. But it's normal for the hopes of the others to go up each off-season, as long as no wheels are turned.

 ;)

#6557 RSNS

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 01:17

This should probably go into the FA v FM thread but I am taking it here first to see if FA's fans agree with the assessment of his technique as this is an assumption that needs some kind of verification before posing the question in the other thread.


I'm not so convinced. The explanation seems to make sense on the face of it, but on further thought not so much. Reason being that the Renault actually had immense front end grip. Alonso would barrel into a corner and use the prodigious grip from the front tyres to rip the steering wheel towards the corner and the front end would do just that. Then he would get the car pointed in a straight line joining the corner entry, apex and exit and floor the throttle and use the Renault's famous superb rear traction to power out of the corner. The Renault didn't have a huge amount of lateral grip from the rear tyres as compared to the fronts, but it did have amazing traction so as to get the power down and hence a great exit out.

That's why I don't buy the theory because if the Renault was an understeery car, there is no way that going deep into a corner and hacking at the wheel would not induce excessive understeer. The method of driving an understeery car is to actually get it turned in nice and early and continue braking deeper into the corner which transfers dynamic weight to the front and increases front end grip whilst unsettling and reducing the rear end grip. With the car now turned in, the braking can be reduced/power can be added to gradually transfer the balance back towards the rear and power out of the corner.

With an oversteery car, the opposite is better - brake late and hard in a straight line, turn in sharply to hit the apex** which lines up with the corner exit.

** there is no such thing as a perfect apex to the corner as is sometimes mistakenly thought. It depends on the point of turn in and the line of exit out


I think you are right and that the quoted analysis is too simple. In the Renaults, Alonso seemed to do what in sports cars induces oversteer: counter turn, turn in more than needed and break hard. In normal rear traction cars this is the way to begin a powerslide. Alonso never powerslid, though, and I never really understood it. It may have been a way of dealing with an understeery car by nailing its nose to the ground on turn in, but I am not sure.

During his Maclaren year, Alonso drove a neutral car, and adapted very well, even if he sometimes lost the front when trying really hard. The Ferrari behaved in intermediate terms, and Alonso had a lot of visible oversteer in some corners (but it may have been due to carrying too much speed into them). From Massa's way of driving, it seemed the car was neutral to understeery.

So Alonso's style seems basically to change a lot. The only thing I notice in every car is that he is not particularly smooth with the steering wheel: he makes large forceful corrections, but that means what?? He is quite fast in the rain, so there certainly is no lack of precision.

As he can drive a problematic car quite fast (for instance, with no clutch) I would say that he is always on edge and adapts to whatever he is given. This is done in a different way from, say, Schumacher or Hamilton (lots of large corrections and lots of small corrections, respectively), but it works just as well.

I'd like to talk to an F1 driving engineer: nowadays everything is too fast for us to appreciate visually (and auraly) unless in super slow motion and with all the computer data, which we very seldom (if ever) get.

#6558 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 02:36

Massa might just comeback. Lets see if Alonso can handle it.;)

#6559 Hole

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 04:33

Massa might just comeback. Lets see if Alonso can handle it.;)


And if not it's either because of the accident or because of Santander :rolleyes:

IMO Massa won't do much better this season... He put all the blame on the tyres, but the BD guy didn't understand why Massa had the problems so it sounded for me as a lame excuse... So with Pirelli I don't expect much different. Perhaps he'll get more competitive but not beating Alonso more often than not at all.

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#6560 ArtShelley

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 04:39

I'll go with option b) from here:

reck·less

a. Heedless or careless.
b. Headstrong; rash.

which brings us to

headstrong

self-willed; obstinate

Satisfied? Else let's meet over st some semantics forum, shall we? ;)


Ahh thanks for clearing up what was in reality just a simple misunderstanding. I was obviously thinking of the commonly accepted definition of reckless i.e careless; undertakes actions without thought of consequences etc etc. I've never actually known that reckless could also be defined as self-willed, but there ya go! :up:

#6561 ArtShelley

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 04:49

And if not it's either because of the accident or because of Santander :rolleyes:

IMO Massa won't do much better this season... He put all the blame on the tyres, but the BD guy didn't understand why Massa had the problems so it sounded for me as a lame excuse... So with Pirelli I don't expect much different. Perhaps he'll get more competitive but not beating Alonso more often than not at all.


Out of curiousity, what excuses did Massa make all those years he was beaten by Schumacher, and then beaten by Kimi in 2007 in similar circumstances (i.e first year for Kimi at Ferrari)?

I'm not really concerned about whether the cause of the performance differential between Massa and Alonso is due to Massa's injury or not. If it is due to his injury, it makes no difference because the end result is that as a driver he is inherently slower than Alonso. This is the only thing that counts - the results. The cause is only important if a) it can be changed (e.g if car or tyre characteristics are the reason), or b) for Alonso fans who would love to believe that Alonso is a driving God who would have equally thrashed an in-form Kimi / or Massa fans who want to downplay the fact that their man is, quite simply, slower.

If however the reason for the performance differential isn't due to injury etc, but rather due to the tyres, then we will find out soon enough this season. Better to speculate in a friendly fashion, rather than make arrogant sure-footed statements as it means there may be less crow to eat.

#6562 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 05:12

And if not it's either because of the accident or because of Santander :rolleyes:

IMO Massa won't do much better this season... He put all the blame on the tyres, but the BD guy didn't understand why Massa had the problems so it sounded for me as a lame excuse... So with Pirelli I don't expect much different. Perhaps he'll get more competitive but not beating Alonso more often than not at all.


For me, 2011 is going to be about beating the Red Bulls and getting the championship. I want to see their trump card beaten. (Newey)

Then see Marko's face.

Edited by ViMaMo, 18 January 2011 - 05:13.


#6563 jjcale

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:40

This should probably go into the FA v FM thread but I am taking it here first to see if FA's fans agree with the assessment of his technique as this is an assumption that needs some kind of verification before posing the question in the other thread.


I'm not so convinced. The explanation seems to make sense on the face of it, but on further thought not so much.


Cheers.

#6564 tifosiMac

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:55

Ahh thanks for clearing up what was in reality just a simple misunderstanding. I was obviously thinking of the commonly accepted definition of reckless i.e careless; undertakes actions without thought of consequences etc etc. I've never actually known that reckless could also be defined as self-willed, but there ya go! :up:

If you look down the list far enough under any definition you'll find a word that can be changed to suit. Your definition of reckless was the most commonly used understanding which leads me to believe the word 'reckless' was the wrong one in Alonso case. :p :)

The only time I remember Fernando being reckless was Brazil '03 when he ignored double waved yellows after Webber's crash. I was a big Alonso fan back then and gave him the benefit of the doubt as it was only his second full season in F1 and his first season with a race winning team so inexperience could have come into play IMO. Since then though the goalposts have been moved forward, and if we compare that with Lewis Hamilton's rookie season, its obvious F1 fans expect drivers to be mistake free from their very first race. Although none of us really understand what its like to be an F1 driver under immense pressure, we do have extremely high standards from a spectators perspective. :)

#6565 gaston_foix

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 09:46

If you look down the list far enough under any definition you'll find a word that can be changed to suit. Your definition of reckless was the most commonly used understanding which leads me to believe the word 'reckless' was the wrong one in Alonso case. :p :)

The only time I remember Fernando being reckless was Brazil '03 when he ignored double waved yellows after Webber's crash. I was a big Alonso fan back then and gave him the benefit of the doubt as it was only his second full season in F1 and his first season with a race winning team so inexperience could have come into play IMO. Since then though the goalposts have been moved forward, and if we compare that with Lewis Hamilton's rookie season, its obvious F1 fans expect drivers to be mistake free from their very first race. Although none of us really understand what its like to be an F1 driver under immense pressure, we do have extremely high standards from a spectators perspective. :)

This :up:

#6566 kosmos

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 17:33

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9360338.stm

#6567 Smile17

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 17:46

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9360338.stm


That has been discussed way too much if you ask me (innocent statement that is full of mind games nothing more), but thanks for posting I hadn't seen the video yet.

#6568 AlanWake

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 21:10

Posted Image

:rotfl:

Alonso looks less shy since he joined Ferari.


That photo is great :)

BTW, this is the story of that photo...

On stage after the farewell dinner, Alonso took the microphone and announced he would be performing a magic card trick.

He called upon the help of Roberta Vallorosi. “She worked with Valentino Rossi and now she is my press secretary,” said Alonso in fluent Italian, according to O Estado de S.Paulo.

Alonso then also called MotoGP great Rossi onto the stage to be his second assistant, and performed an elaborate card trick using props including a condom and a teddy bear.

“How was that possible?” Rossi marvelled after the Ferrari driver retrieved the missing card.


http://www.yallaf1.c...ress-secretary/

Brilliant!!! :lol:


#6569 showtime

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 21:21

He was also the dj for most of the party :drunk: We clearly was on the mood :rotfl:

#6570 kosmos

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 05:33

That has been discussed way too much if you ask me (innocent statement that is full of mind games nothing more), but thanks for posting I hadn't seen the video yet.



The interesting thing to me in this videos is what both replied about the "too many buttons" question. I think it says a lot about Felipe and Fernando approach to F1 challenges, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

#6571 Smile17

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:38

The interesting thing to me in this videos is what both replied about the "too many buttons" question. I think it says a lot about Felipe and Fernando approach to F1 challenges, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.


I agree with you, they are right. The focus needs to be on the driving, not technology etc.

#6572 kurski

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 12:48

Translation (with Google): http://www.tomorrown...rcia-abad-18454

Tensions between Fernando Alonso and Luis Garcia Abad

Some scenes were visible at the event Ferrari Madonna di Campiglio last week. Fernando Alonso and Luis Garcia Abad has a strained relationship. The double world champion, who completed a more than impressive 2010 season with Ferrari to blame his agent.

According to a source of serious Spanish relations between the officer and driver are more tense than for many months (increased from Abu Dhabi), the Ferrari driver complains that it hurts his agent negotiated the 2009 season.

Indeed, Fernando Alonso wanted to stay at Renault for the 2009 season only and then move to Ferrari in 2009 to better prepare for the 2010 season. Instead, Luis Abad has not succeeded in breaking the contract of Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen of the Ferrari team, so that was in difficulty in managing their pilot contracts.

Furthermore, and despite a transfer to Ferrari to magnify its image, its brand of clothing is FASTER strong trade difficulties.

A situation which explains that Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher imitates the past with the introduction of Sabine Khem around him alongside Willi Weber, hiring the former press officer of Valentino Rossi, Roberta Vallorosi, who recently worked in The press office of Ferrari.



#6573 showtime

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 13:08

New helmet is confirmed by Schuberth:

Posted Image

#6574 AlanWake

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 14:58

Translation (with Google): http://www.tomorrown...rcia-abad-18454


Well, Abad was with Alonso last week in Madonna di Campiglio:

Posted Image

And isn't it strange that the Spanish Press hasn't said anything about that?  ;)

The only truth in that article is that Alonso had a very impressive season in 2010 and that he hired a new press secretary who had worked with Rossi, the rest is bs.

#6575 kurski

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 15:37

And isn't it strange that the Spanish Press hasn't said anything about that? ;)


It is a little odd that Marca or AS, have announced the of that nothing.

#6576 Flamini

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 16:16

AlanWake, could i ask for a source of that photo?

#6577 AlanWake

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 18:41

AlanWake, could i ask for a source of that photo?


I found it in another forum.

#6578 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 22:52

They were excellent cars and I'm convinced that Alonso would've done better than both Massa and Raikkonen had he drove in them even more so after last year.


As far as I know in 2007 he had a car at least as good as the F2007, and with better reliability, and he didn´t do better.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 20 January 2011 - 00:22.


#6579 jetalt

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 00:18

Zangola Disco Wroom11's Party (Madonna di Campiglio):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ND3TDWOC

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#6580 robefc

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 00:28

Translation (with Google): http://www.tomorrown...rcia-abad-18454


I'm confused, alonso is spposed to be annoyed with his agent for not being able to break the existing driver's contracts with ferari? And he's annoyed now, after spending the year at ferrari which was apparently the best year of his life, more than he was back in 2009?

hmmmmm!

#6581 showtime

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:04

Zangola Disco Wroom11's Party (Madonna di Campiglio):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ND3TDWOC


lol @ Fisichella :lol:

#6582 fabr68

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:42

lol @ Fisichella :lol:


:rotfl:

#6583 HPT

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 03:29

As far as I know in 2007 he had a car at least as good as the F2007, and with better reliability, and he didn´t do better.


I guess what he meant was that since Alonso seems to have quite a bit of speed advantage over Massa, the F2007 could have been a much quicker car than the MP4-23, but the McLaren drivers make the two cars seem equal. I don't agree completely, but that was the point he was trying to make. And it is possible that it's true, although we will never know. You simply can't compare two different cars. Everything is just conjecture.

#6584 Flamini

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:36

lol @ Fisichella :lol:


:lol:

#6585 prty

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:01

Posted Image

:p

#6586 ArtShelley

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 12:40

Posted Image

:p


He'd be a good no.2 for Alonso.

#6587 marcoferrari

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 12:53

Out of curiousity, what excuses did Massa make all those years he was beaten by Schumacher, and then beaten by Kimi in 2007 in similar circumstances (i.e first year for Kimi at Ferrari)?

I'm not really concerned about whether the cause of the performance differential between Massa and Alonso is due to Massa's injury or not. If it is due to his injury, it makes no difference because the end result is that as a driver he is inherently slower than Alonso. This is the only thing that counts - the results. The cause is only important if a) it can be changed (e.g if car or tyre characteristics are the reason), or b) for Alonso fans who would love to believe that Alonso is a driving God who would have equally thrashed an in-form Kimi / or Massa fans who want to downplay the fact that their man is, quite simply, slower.

If however the reason for the performance differential isn't due to injury etc, but rather due to the tyres, then we will find out soon enough this season. Better to speculate in a friendly fashion, rather than make arrogant sure-footed statements as it means there may be less crow to eat.


Then it is a complete mystery why Marques left Minardi in 2001, cause his RESULTS were better then Alonso s... :) PERFORMANCES is what counts more...

#6588 TigersWood

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 18:06

He'd be a good no.2 for Alonso.


That has proven succesful twice. :up:

#6589 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 19:30

I guess what he meant was that since Alonso seems to have quite a bit of speed advantage over Massa, the F2007 could have been a much quicker car than the MP4-23, but the McLaren drivers make the two cars seem equal. I don't agree completely, but that was the point he was trying to make. And it is possible that it's true, although we will never know. You simply can't compare two different cars. Everything is just conjecture.


Even looking at it that way I personally found it stupid. It´s like "Rosberg may have lapped the field 3 times in the F2004".

#6590 HPT

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 19:49

Even looking at it that way I personally found it stupid. It´s like "Rosberg may have lapped the field 3 times in the F2004".


How so? Did Rosberg lap MS at least once every race?

#6591 currupipi

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 19:57

I'm confused, alonso is spposed to be annoyed with his agent for not being able to break the existing driver's contracts with ferari? And he's annoyed now, after spending the year at ferrari which was apparently the best year of his life, more than he was back in 2009?

hmmmmm!



:lol: makes you wonder how some of these press guys can make a living with some of the garbage they write

#6592 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 22:07

How so? Did Rosberg lap MS at least once every race?


You understood perfectly. Saying Alonso´d have been quicker in the F2007 is exactly the same than saying Nico´d have been quicker in the F2004.

#6593 kurski

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 05:26

http://www.canarias7...o.cfm?id=197948

Alonso and Del Rosario, The neighbors "Meleguinas?

It's the talk in Las Meleguinas and the motor press, who was Formula 1 champion, Fernando Alonso, and singer of The Dream of Morpheus, the terorense Raquel del Rosario, could soon be residents of Santa Brigida. To buy the house it was Eufemiano Fuentes and his heirs in Las Meleguinas, which was on sale for eight million euros although it is assumed that the figure would be significantly reduced.

Inter alia, the news has been reflected in the trade publication Motor 2000 and also in Mcrallyes.com, recalling that "notice of sale of the home in http://www.idealista.com contains the following description" great villa for sale located in Gran Canaria, in the municipality of Santa Brigida, in the] Las Meleguinas, with a total area of 37,061 meters square, where the rustic farm consists of land for the cultivation of avocado, orange, lemon, cherry and others an area of 20,630 meters square. Another part of Arrifes access and land with an area of approximately 9,605 meters square. The property is a set of house-entrance, main house on the well, cavern and gardens, all on a surface of 6,824 meters square. The main house consists of two floors and attic. "

According to this publication, the sale price was set at eight million euros, a figure available to very few lucky ones. Both the representatives of Fernando Alonso and Raquel del Rosario is about to close in five million euros. Apparently the difference is half a million euros, as the estate representative does not accept losing 5.5 million euros. Difference, given the economic power of Fernando and Raquel should not be a decisive obstacle. "

"Besides being a work of art, built in stone of two colors, meets the ideal conditions for a peaceful privacy for its fortress and a single access via a bridge, in the style of medieval castles, together with which is the home of the guardian of the property. In other words, ideal to avoid discomfort of any kind. Interestingly, the disclosure of the mansion is located in the rally section, called "The Meleguinas", which historically included in roadbook Rally Villa de Santa Brigida, and that at this time is being widened and resurfaced. The rear of the property adjoins the bed of the Barranco Alonso. name that seems prescient, because in any case and its future and illustrious neighbor insurance which would apply that name. "


New house...?

#6594 Smile17

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 10:28

http://www.canarias7...o.cfm?id=197948
New house...?


Maybe, it's still just a rumour, but I have to say it's a huge house on a beautiful location.


#6595 Stuko

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 12:09

Then it is a complete mystery why Marques left Minardi in 2001, cause his RESULTS were better then Alonso s... :)


I´ll tell you: Marques was inherently slower than Alonso too.
Qualy.
Marques: 20, 21, 22(x11).
Alonso: 17, 18(x6), 19(x2), 20, 21(x6), 22.

(or may be you mean Marques was better than Alonso because his best end race position was 9th and Alo´s best was 10th, and for you that is the only valid "results", errr.... no points :confused: ).

Anyway i think Tarso wasn´t a bad driver, he was better than some of current ones.





#6596 HPT

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 03:36

You understood perfectly. Saying Alonso´d have been quicker in the F2007 is exactly the same than saying Nico´d have been quicker in the F2004.


I think we can probably get a healthy debate out of whether Rosberg would have been quicker in the F2004 because he has beaten MS so convincingly in 2010. But lapping the field three times, that's just the deal killer for any debate, don't you think?

If you can't see the difference between speculating based on available information - which could be right or wrong - and making exaggerated assumptions, then there is not much to talk about, is there?

#6597 marcoferrari

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:48

I´ll tell you: Marques was inherently slower than Alonso too.
Qualy.
Marques: 20, 21, 22(x11).
Alonso: 17, 18(x6), 19(x2), 20, 21(x6), 22.

(or may be you mean Marques was better than Alonso because his best end race position was 9th and Alo´s best was 10th, and for you that is the only valid "results", errr.... no points :confused: ).

Anyway i think Tarso wasn´t a bad driver, he was better than some of current ones.


I know who was the better one... :) My point was, in the era of many mechanical retirements, results often showed you nothing or were very misleading... So, that s why I am looking more at driver s performances then results... And I guess people from team prefer that, too... That s the reason why was Marques out and not Alonso or recently his countryman Alguersuari was praised by his team and not Buemi with more points... Cause they knew very well there was some bad luck involved... :)

Edited by marcoferrari, 23 January 2011 - 09:50.


#6598 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:51

I think we can probably get a healthy debate out of whether Rosberg would have been quicker in the F2004 because he has beaten MS so convincingly in 2010.


No. That´d be stupid. You know it. Different era, different cars, different field, very different driver shapes. Maybe for afternoon yak TV.

But lapping the field three times, that's just the deal killer for any debate, don't you think?


Of course. If you think it was serious you have the problem. Didn´t intend to debate that.

If you can't see the difference between speculating based on available information - which could be right or wrong - and making exaggerated assumptions, then there is not much to talk about, is there?


No it isn´t much to talk about. Speculating like that is useless, IMHO, cos it takes to stupid stuff like "Heidfeld´d have been champ in the MP4/17-D". I said that comparisons like that were useless for me, and to show it I used that exaggerated example.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 23 January 2011 - 17:53.


#6599 MDL

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 19:17

Must admit I never really liked Freddie Fingers much on a personal level - always thought him to be an arrogant ass.

BUT, as a driver he is unquestionably quick , intelligent and probably the most complete driver of the younger generation.
Hamilton, however, may be the fastest.

There's still plenty to come from both.... IMO, the jury is still out. :well:

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#6600 Smile17

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 19:22

Must admit I never really liked Freddie Fingers much on a personal level - always thought him to be an arrogant ass.

BUT, as a driver he is unquestionably quick , intelligent and probably the most complete driver of the younger generation.
Hamilton, however, may be the fastest.

There's still plenty to come from both.... IMO, the jury is still out. :well:


I guess I can call this an...addition? Thank you