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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#6601 motorhead

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:40

"After Rossi impressed during his Ferrari F1 tests in 2006, Alonso commented that "Rossi might finish fifth or even get on the podium [in F1] but I could do the same in bikes if I was given enough time to practice."

That arrogant driver does it again. I hope he proves it, surely Ducati would give him a bike for that.

Whole story http://crash.net/mot...nso_on_ice.html


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#6602 kenny

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:59

"After Rossi impressed during his Ferrari F1 tests in 2006, Alonso commented that "Rossi might finish fifth or even get on the podium [in F1] but I could do the same in bikes if I was given enough time to practice."

That arrogant driver does it again. I hope he proves it, surely Ducati would give him a bike for that.

Whole story http://crash.net/mot...nso_on_ice.html

you are upset by a quote that is 5 years old??
:drunk:

#6603 Mc_Silver

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:49

what an arrogant cry baby...

#6604 prty

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:11

The article is from December and the quote from 5 years ago... it looks like your line of thought was something like "there hasn't been any significant bashing on the Alonso thread for a while now, so considering this is Autosport forums, it needs to be fixed!" :lol:

#6605 bl-f1

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 14:56

The article is from December and the quote from 5 years ago... it looks like your line of thought was something like "there hasn't been any significant bashing on the Alonso thread for a while now, so considering this is Autosport forums, it needs to be fixed!" :lol:


:up:



#6606 fabr68

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 16:39

you are upset by a quote that is 5 years old??
:drunk:


Alonso's mind games are way too powerful for the weak.

#6607 as65p

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 17:51

Alonso's mind games are way too powerful for the weak.


:lol: Nice one! :up:

#6608 MichaelPM

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:37

The article is from December and the quote from 5 years ago... it looks like your line of thought was something like "there hasn't been any significant bashing on the Alonso thread for a while now, so considering this is Autosport forums, it needs to be fixed!" :lol:

:up:

Unfortunately that is exactly how this board operates, also if he does well and someone compliments him then a negative must be found to cancel it out.

#6609 Lotusseven

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 20:49

http://www.canarias7...o.cfm?id=197948


New house...?


"no, I never visit or interesting in buying a house in Canarias...What the newspapers say normally....you know...is not 100% true..:-)) "

Greetings from Fernando Alonso

Edited by Lotusseven, 24 January 2011 - 20:50.


#6610 Slartibartfast

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 22:22

"no, I never visit or interesting in buying a house in Canarias...What the newspapers say normally....you know...is not 100% true..:-)) "

Greetings from Fernando Alonso

Alonso, that inconsiderate, selfish b*st*rd, hasn't said or done anything all week that can be condemned as inconsiderate or selfish! How inconsiderate and selfish is that? It's disgraceful! What's he going to do next, avoid Croydon?

#6611 Lotusseven

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 22:33

Alonso, that inconsiderate, selfish b*st*rd, hasn't said or done anything all week that can be condemned as inconsiderate or selfish! How inconsiderate and selfish is that? It's disgraceful! What's he going to do next, avoid Croydon?


He said what I posted above. I don´t think he is more inconsiderate, selfish bastard than you are. Deal with it ! :lol:

Edited by Lotusseven, 24 January 2011 - 22:34.


#6612 Skinnyguy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 00:23

:up:

Unfortunatelythat is exactly how this board operates, also if he does well and someone compliments him then a negative must be found to cancel it out.


Agree, it´s disgusting. And it´s exactly how your signature works too. :drunk: You don´t even need to write the negative stuff everytime you post, good system.

#6613 HPT

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:59

No. That´d be stupid. You know it. Different era, different cars, different field, very different driver shapes. Maybe for afternoon yak TV.



Of course. If you think it was serious you have the problem. Didn´t intend to debate that.



No it isn´t much to talk about. Speculating like that is useless, IMHO, cos it takes to stupid stuff like "Heidfeld´d have been champ in the MP4/17-D". I said that comparisons like that were useless for me, and to show it I used that exaggerated example.


If you feel an argument is stupid, then counter it. Don't just dismiss it. Speaks of a narrow mind. The poster who originally wondered if Alonso would have been quicker in the F2007 was merely pondering about the possibility based on the relative performance between Alonso and Massa. It really isn't THAT stupid. Just something to think about. Of course you're right that different cars, era, etc. etc. cannot be compared. In which case, no one should draw up the best or quickest drivers list, right? Or a greatest ever list? Funnily, journalists, pundits and experts have been doing that for years. I think you should just sit out for all of that.

#6614 as65p

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:50

He said what I posted above. I don´t think he is more inconsiderate, selfish bastard than you are. Deal with it ! :lol:


Sorry to say, but I reckon his post (and point) flew right over your head. Essentially he was just making fun of those people seeing Alonos as evil incarnate. Not bashing him at all, quite the contrary. :wave:

#6615 Skinnyguy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 19:48

...In which case, no one should draw up the best or quickest drivers list, right? Or a greatest ever list?


Of course you can. Whoever keeps winning or thereabout for a long period, deserves credit.

It´s easy to measure and rate what happened, but impossible to measure what´d have happened. That´s why I HATE that kind of random guessing. I also showed how funny conclussions you can get using that system.

Anyway, if you wanted a counter to that specific speculation, you got it first time around: Alonso was driving a car at least as good as the F2007, and he didn´t do better, so no reason to think he´d have done in the F2007.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 25 January 2011 - 19:54.


#6616 HPT

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 06:19

Of course you can. Whoever keeps winning or thereabout for a long period, deserves credit.

It´s easy to measure and rate what happened, but impossible to measure what´d have happened. That´s why I HATE that kind of random guessing. I also showed how funny conclussions you can get using that system.

Anyway, if you wanted a counter to that specific speculation, you got it first time around: Alonso was driving a car at least as good as the F2007, and he didn´t do better, so no reason to think he´d have done in the F2007.


On what basis can you claim the 2007 McLaren was at least as good as the F2007? Two totally different cars with totally different drivers. You have more basis to compare Alonso and Massa's performance because they have been team mates than you could ever have with those two cars. I'm not saying that I agree with the poster that says Alonso would have done better in the F2007, but at least there is some shred of evidence pointing towards that, however speculative it may seem. But your claim that the 2007 McLaren is at least as good as the F2007 is totally unfounded and based on nothing more than guesswork.

And yet you HATE random guessing. I really don't get you. Go ahead and show me how your claim is any less of a guesswork than the claim that Alonso could have done better in the F2007. I imagine you will struggle with this one.

#6617 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 10:14

Alonso, that inconsiderate, selfish b*st*rd, hasn't said or done anything all week that can be condemned as inconsiderate or selfish! How inconsiderate and selfish is that? It's disgraceful! What's he going to do next, avoid Croydon?

:lol:
Nah, he will commit the ultimate sin and agree to compete in a triathlon against Jenson only to back out later on in the season... His detractors will talk about it for years and even bring it up as a valid point in sensible debate as to why he has a weak character lol..Handbags.. :D

#6618 Mastah

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 13:15

NobleF1 Jon Noble
Breaking Ferrari news - Alonso's mum says his beard must go: "In Bahrain I'll have a more standard look, because my mother doesn't like it"


:rotfl:

#6619 JackTorrance

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 13:21

Alonso, that inconsiderate, selfish b*st*rd, hasn't said or done anything all week that can be condemned as inconsiderate or selfish! How inconsiderate and selfish is that? It's disgraceful! What's he going to do next, avoid Croydon?


:rotfl: :rotfl:



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#6620 MichaelPM

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 13:25

NobleF1 Jon Noble
Breaking Ferrari news - Alonso's mum says his beard must go: "In Bahrain I'll have a more standard look, because my mother doesn't like it"

:rotfl:

Haha :up:

#6621 AlanWake

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 14:10

"I think in 2011 there will be some kind of direction that we took in 2010 regarding my driving style."

"So I think I will feel more confident with this year's car. I will feel more comfortable driving the car, it will be more predictable to me. And I know the team now - I know the people, I know the guys, I know the names of all my mechanics, something that was not the case in Bahrain last year. So that will also help.

"Last year I didn't have the numbers of these guys [Ferrari designers] but now I do so I call them every two days to put some pressure on. Hopefully we'll see in Valencia if that pressure helped or if it was the wrong pressure..."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/89126

#6622 Lotusseven

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 14:58

:rotfl:


Thanks God for Ana Diaz Alonso !! :kiss: Fernando´s mother is a very wise mother, with good fashion taste. :D

#6623 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 18:11

On what basis can you claim the 2007 McLaren was at least as good as the F2007? Two totally different cars with totally different drivers. You have more basis to compare Alonso and Massa's performance because they have been team mates than you could ever have with those two cars. I'm not saying that I agree with the poster that says Alonso would have done better in the F2007, but at least there is some shred of evidence pointing towards that, however speculative it may seem. But your claim that the 2007 McLaren is at least as good as the F2007 is totally unfounded and based on nothing more than guesswork.

And yet you HATE random guessing. I really don't get you. Go ahead and show me how your claim is any less of a guesswork than the claim that Alonso could have done better in the F2007. I imagine you will struggle with this one.


I struggle going up a 10% uphill on a road bike, not explaining how opinions about what happened are easily more reliable than guessing what would have happened if... I claim that on the basis of HAVING WATCHED (real world you know... :wave: ) them compete during 9 months. Guess work is to say which car will be the best in 2011, cos it didn´t happen yet. Saying which car was the best in any previous season you can get it right or wrong, but it has a solid basis: 9 months of competition, watching who was faster every weekend, who blowed an engine, who started better off the line... you know, all that stuff.


#6624 Hollow

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 18:23

Bunch of wussies... shave your heads if you don't like hair.

Hairy people are sexier.

Edited by Hollow, 28 January 2011 - 18:23.


#6625 Nesto

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 18:25

Thanks God for Ana Diaz Alonso !!


Same thought went through my mind. Thank god for Alonso's mum!!


#6626 ArtShelley

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 00:54

"I think in 2011 there will be some kind of direction that we took in 2010 regarding my driving style."

"So I think I will feel more confident with this year's car. I will feel more comfortable driving the car, it will be more predictable to me. And I know the team now - I know the people, I know the guys, I know the names of all my mechanics, something that was not the case in Bahrain last year. So that will also help.

"Last year I didn't have the numbers of these guys [Ferrari designers] but now I do so I call them every two days to put some pressure on. Hopefully we'll see in Valencia if that pressure helped or if it was the wrong pressure..."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/89126


Ominous words for Massa if even half of it is true.

#6627 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:20

Out of curiousity, what excuses did Massa make all those years he was beaten by Schumacher, and then beaten by Kimi in 2007 in similar circumstances (i.e first year for Kimi at Ferrari)?


He didnt need excuses against Schumacher because he had just joined the team of a 7 times wc and legend. he was expected to be destroyed.
He didnt need excuses against Kimi because he was actually very competitive against him, and if it wasnt for bad luck could have beaten Kimi that year.

He needed an excuse against Alonso, because he was totally destroyed, despite being the incumbent Ferrari driver.

#6628 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:35

At Interlagos, Alonso out-qualified Massa by over 1.1 seconds. If you read the post-qualifying comments, Massa didn't make a mistake except that he couldn't get his tyres up to temp which he's struggled with all season.

In Turkey, Massa actually out-qualified Alonso but reading the post-qualifying comments, Alonso actually made a significant error in Q2 and missed the cut. He was faster than Massa in Q1.

Without a doubt in my mind, if Massa is comfortable with the car, he is one of the very quickest at those two tracks. In 2007, he out-qualified eventual WDC Kimi by over 2 tenths in Turkey for pole and won the race. At Interlagos the same year, he out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and moved over in the race to let Kimi win and take the WDC.

In 2008, in Turkey he again out-qualified Kimi by over 3 tenths for pole and won the race. Again, at Interlagos he was ahead by almost 5 tenths for pole and won the race.

In 2009, in Turkey Kimi out-qualified Massa by just half a tenth but Massa finished ahead in the race.

In 2006, in Turkey he out-qualified team mate Schumacher by almost 3 tenths for pole and won the race. At Interlagos, Schumi didn't set a Q3 time, but Massa still qualified on pole and won the race.

Based on the above, being out-qualified by a team mate at Interlagos by over 1.1 seconds in 2010 tells me that for whatever the same reason, it's not the same Massa. In fact, LdM himself said that this season it seemed like Massa's brother had turned up to the races instead. As much as I admire Alonso and think he's one of the very best on the grid now, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would not have beaten Massa by anywhere near this amount had they been team mates in 2007 to 2009.



You seem to be ignoring a very import fact here. The conditions at interlagos were mixed, which can create larger than normal gaps. Do you really think Hulkenburg was really 2 seconds a lap quicker than Barrichello at interlagos? Of course not but he was that day because of the weird conditions, which is why Alonso was so much faster than Massa. The track was not try.

In turkey 2006, Schumacher was 1 second faster than Massa in Q2, which is why he qualified with 8 laps more fuel, and still only finished 3 tenths behind despite making mistakes on both his Q3 runs. In brazil he was also faster in Q2, until his beat box died and he failed to qualify. So if you really analyize the situation you will see that Massa being a specialist at Turkey and Brazil is really a myth and mostly based on luck and circumstance. Just because you outpace Kimi on those tracks does make you something special. I know the media has given him that specialist tag but if you have followed f1 for a long time, you will know that they are the last group you should trust. They mostly talk so much crap and think they know something because they are lucky to be paid for it but its not really true.

#6629 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:43

I do see what you're saying, and of course, I have no evidence other than anecdotal so I don't claim to be "right". But I don't agree that Kimi's reputation was so very wrong. It was never "proven not to be", because with that statement you are automatically assuming that it is proven fact that Massa is a poor driver. Kimi's reputation hasn't actually been tarnished all that much just due to his pairing and performance against Massa. Teams still want him, it's a question of price and also which team he is happy to drive for. If anything, prior to his accident, Massa's reputation had indeed gone up. Of course most still believed that Kimi was down on motivation, but most still acknowledged that Massa had also developed as a driver.


Logic fail. When you make a claim you need to prove it, it does not have to be proven not to be true, you must back it up. Its like me claiming to have the reputation of being the fastest driver in the world, afterall it has not been proven to be untrue. And actually it has been a proven fact that Massa is a poor driver, compared to the very best. He was destroyed by Schumacher. Thats a proven fact. Claiming Massa has greatly improved since then is totally unfounded and impossible to quantify.


#6630 DarthRonzo

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:55

Bunch of wussies... shave your heads if you don't like hair.

Hairy people are sexier.

Alonso is the "lost link" among the human race and the cave man. :p

#6631 Lotusseven

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:25

Same thought went through my mind. Thank god for Alonso's mum!!


:up: yeah...moustache & goatee and beard on guys are so B. :down: It should be forbidden in F1.



#6632 Polle

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:28

The Mo is awesome. All he needs are sideburns that could rival emerson fittipaldi

#6633 Seanspeed

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:31

Logic fail. When you make a claim you need to prove it, it does not have to be proven not to be true, you must back it up. Its like me claiming to have the reputation of being the fastest driver in the world, afterall it has not been proven to be untrue. And actually it has been a proven fact that Massa is a poor driver, compared to the very best. He was destroyed by Schumacher. Thats a proven fact. Claiming Massa has greatly improved since then is totally unfounded and impossible to quantify.

Its not unfounded. Its possibly an 'unproven' idea, but its a very generally accepted viewpoint for good reason.

I'm not a Massa fan, but I can definitely see how his pace and more importantly, his pace consistency, has improved since 06. I still think Alonso is a step above him in this regard, though.

#6634 kosmos

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:39

new interview.

#6635 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:46

Its not unfounded. Its possibly an 'unproven' idea, but its a very generally accepted viewpoint for good reason.


There is no possiblly about it, because it was definately unproven, and that is a critical point. Generally accepted by who? Kimi fan boys and some pundits? Thats not worth anything.

I'm not a Massa fan, but I can definitely see how his pace and more importantly, his pace consistency, has improved since 06. I still think Alonso is a step above him in this regard, though.


I personally don't because if you analyize his best season 2008, you will see he has very inconsistent, and all over the place through most of the season, but that has been ignored and only his best performances have been focused on. Don't forget its all relative and when you go from being compared to Schumacher, a massively consistent driver, to Kimi, you will obviously look more consistent and faster, but that does mean you are. Is it a co incidence that Massa suddenly appeared to lose his speed and consistency, he had since 2007, the moment he was again paired with an exceptional driver like Schumacher?? I don't think. In truth he never had it, and nothing really changed since 2006.

Edited by bluestar, 29 January 2011 - 03:47.


#6636 HPT

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:24

I struggle going up a 10% uphill on a road bike, not explaining how opinions about what happened are easily more reliable than guessing what would have happened if... I claim that on the basis of HAVING WATCHED (real world you know... :wave: ) them compete during 9 months. Guess work is to say which car will be the best in 2011, cos it didn´t happen yet. Saying which car was the best in any previous season you can get it right or wrong, but it has a solid basis: 9 months of competition, watching who was faster every weekend, who blowed an engine, who started better off the line... you know, all that stuff.


Let's see. Massa drove the F2007, a car which, in Kimi's hands, seems - and 'seems' is the operative word here because there is no quantifiable way to measure those 2 cars - to be on par with the McLaren because they ended up 1 point apart after the whole season. Last season Alonso beat Massa by a hefty margin. So people start wondering if Alonso would have fared better than Massa in the F2007 because, if all things were equal, he really would have. But since we know all things aren't equal, it's just speculative. But there is a line of logic pointing towards that.

And you claim the 2007 McLaren is at least as good as the F2007 on the basis of having watched them compete during 9 months? Even though they were driven by different drivers who have never been team mates at that time, therefore no comparable performance to draw on? Where is the solid base? The car could be faster due to the driver, you seem to totally discount that possibility. You are struggling to make any sense of this mate. More so than going up a 10% slope on a bike I'd say.

PS. you should go to the gym  ;)

#6637 ArtShelley

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:43

Logic fail. When you make a claim you need to prove it, it does not have to be proven not to be true, you must back it up. Its like me claiming to have the reputation of being the fastest driver in the world, afterall it has not been proven to be untrue. And actually it has been a proven fact that Massa is a poor driver, compared to the very best. He was destroyed by Schumacher. Thats a proven fact. Claiming Massa has greatly improved since then is totally unfounded and impossible to quantify.


You utterly miss my point. To make the claim that Kimi was overrated solely because he was beaten by Massa, who you've already deemed as a poor driver, is false logic by over simplification.

#6638 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:48

The 2007 Ferrari was much faster than Mclaren. This is not even disputable now that we have seen Massa vs Alonso in equal cars. Ive seen a few comments about how the regulations were different, the cars were different, but all that matters is that the drivers were the same, thus giving us a relative base line. Based on this, the 07 Ferrari was generally 0.5 - 1.0 faster at most tracks that season, with the Mclaren being a little closer on a few tracks, like Monaco, Indy, Canada.

#6639 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:54

You utterly miss my point. To make the claim that Kimi was overrated solely because he was beaten by Massa, who you've already deemed as a poor driver, is false logic by over simplification.


How is it oversimplification? You seem to label any clear direct opposing evidence, as 'too simple', and prefer to rely on totally convoluted assumptions and leaps of logic. Those seem the actions of someone in denial of the truth and looking for their own version of the truth. If you go to the beach and get sun burnt, its safe to assume it was because of the sun, and not some alien laser beams.

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#6640 ArtShelley

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:46

How is it oversimplification? You seem to label any clear direct opposing evidence, as 'too simple', and prefer to rely on totally convoluted assumptions and leaps of logic. Those seem the actions of someone in denial of the truth and looking for their own version of the truth. If you go to the beach and get sun burnt, its safe to assume it was because of the sun, and not some alien laser beams.


No, not just any so-called "clear" so-called "direct" opposing, so-called "evidence"; just your version of it. I've had some entertaining discussions with other posters though we disagree on the issues. Your simpleton analogies about sunbaking are as irrelevant as your other oversimplifications and after reading a dozen or so of your posts, I'm of the belief that we're not going to have a fruitful discussion and neither do I care for your general tone. So let's just agree to ignore each other, starting right now, not that you have any choice in the matter anyway.

#6641 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:20

No, not just any so-called "clear" so-called "direct" opposing, so-called "evidence"; just your version of it. I've had some entertaining discussions with other posters though we disagree on the issues. Your simpleton analogies about sunbaking are as irrelevant as your other oversimplifications and after reading a dozen or so of your posts, I'm of the belief that we're not going to have a fruitful discussion and neither do I care for your general tone. So let's just agree to ignore each other, starting right now, not that you have any choice in the matter anyway.


I guess cutting and running is a lot easier than defending your swiss cheese arguments. Not the type of thing I would do though.

#6642 Seanspeed

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 07:38

Kimi was never a bad driver. For Massa to end up as superior as he did in the 2nd half of 08 was something noteworthy. He took pole positions and wins when Kimi was fighting to even get on the podium. I feel thats a pretty good accomplishment. And in 09, he was matching Kimi more or less.

Massa is a great benchmark, and I agree that the comparisons from '10 to Alonso are largely credible, I think Massa can do a bit better than that. 'A bit' is the key phrase, though. I dont think he'll beat Alonso no matter what the circumstances.

#6643 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:23

Massa is a great benchmark, and I agree that the comparisons from '10 to Alonso are largely credible


Yep and I wish people would stop the silly excuses and just accept Alonso is really that good, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel with silly theories.

Edited by bluestar, 29 January 2011 - 08:23.


#6644 robefc

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:12

The 2007 Ferrari was much faster than Mclaren. This is not even disputable now that we have seen Massa vs Alonso in equal cars. Ive seen a few comments about how the regulations were different, the cars were different, but all that matters is that the drivers were the same, thus giving us a relative base line. Based on this, the 07 Ferrari was generally 0.5 - 1.0 faster at most tracks that season, with the Mclaren being a little closer on a few tracks, like Monaco, Indy, Canada.


I'm not sure why others have to 'prove' their opinions, for instance that masss improved since racing schumi, whilst you're allowed to claim your opinions as indisputable?

I'd love to think the ferrari was much quicker than the macca in 2007, makes Lewis look better. However it's certainly not proven or indisputable and claiming it was up to a second quicker is laughable.

#6645 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:44

I'm not sure why others have to 'prove' their opinions, for instance that masss improved since racing schumi, whilst you're allowed to claim your opinions as indisputable?


If you want to be taken seriously or your argument to have any credibility then you need some evidence to support it, otherwise you just have a bunch of people saying anything they like. Thats not a debate thats anarchy. Not all opinions are created equal. The opinion that Senna was one of the greatest drivers ever, is much more credible than the opinion that Felipe Massa is one of the best drivers ever. Mine are not indisputable but they are strongly backed up with evidence.

I'd love to think the ferrari was much quicker than the macca in 2007, makes Lewis look better. However it's certainly not proven or indisputable and claiming it was up to a second quicker is laughable.


Well its pretty close to indisputable unless you buy into the silly theory, that the widely regarded most improved driver on the grid in 08/09 suddenly lost a bunch of speed over the off season. No evidence to support that, so in that case we should go with what we know for sure. Alonso in equal cars is close to 0.5 quicker than massa consistently, which means its impossible for the 07 ferrari to be anything but the fastest car of that year by far.

#6646 robefc

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:58

Well its pretty close to indisputable unless you buy into the silly theory, that the widely regarded most improved driver on the grid in 08/09 suddenly lost a bunch of speed over the off season. No evidence to support that, so in that case we should go with what we know for sure.


I'm not sure that massa struggling with the 2010 tyres is a silly theory with no evidence to support it. I also don't have any evidence whether his crash in Hungary had any effect on him but then the only people that would have that evidence would be very unlikely to publish it...more likely no-one, not even massa, really knows.


Alonso in equal cars is close to 0.5 quicker than massa consistently, which means its impossible for the 07 ferrari to be anything but the fastest car of that year by far.


Is there an example in the history of F1 in which a driver has been faster than his teammate in one year but slower than the same teammate in another year? I suggest there have been several which means the evidence of one season is far too flimsy for you to be making claims that are close to indisputable or where any other possibility is impossible.

I'm tempted to go down the Lewis was quicker than kovi who was quicker than trulli who was quicker than alonso therefore Lewis must be much quicker than alonso route but I would be basing the last link purely on some forumers' unsubstantiated comments about trulli v alonso...plus it would just be mischievous. :p

Edited by robefc, 29 January 2011 - 09:59.


#6647 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:13

I'm not sure that massa struggling with the 2010 tyres is a silly theory with no evidence to support it. I also don't have any evidence whether his crash in Hungary had any effect on him but then the only people that would have that evidence would be very unlikely to publish it...more likely no-one, not even massa, really knows.



Surely ferrari would know, or are the doctors hiding it secretly, in some sort of conspiracy? There is little evidence of Massa's tyre problems, infact Bridgestone said they didnt know what Massa was talking about.

Is there an example in the history of F1 in which a driver has been faster than his teammate in one year but slower than the same teammate in another year? I suggest there have been several which means the evidence of one season is far too flimsy for you to be making claims that are close to indisputable or where any other possibility is impossible.


But you are purely speculating here, and trying to balance that against a verified fact. It doesnt work like that. Performance between team mates is generally on balance pretty equal, unless there are some exceptional circumstances, like being new to a team or something. I cant recall any big changes.

I'm tempted to go down the Lewis was quicker than kovi who was quicker than trulli who was quicker than alonso therefore Lewis must be much quicker than alonso route but I would be basing the last link purely on some forumers' unsubstantiated comments about trulli v alonso...plus it would just be mischievous. :p


Trulli wasnt quicker than Alonso, so that would have been a waste of time.

#6648 robefc

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:44

Surely ferrari would know, or are the doctors hiding it secretly, in some sort of conspiracy? There is little evidence of Massa's tyre problems, infact Bridgestone said they didnt know what Massa was talking about.


If there is something to know then I'm sure Ferrari would know, I'm equally sure they wouldn't make that info public. I don't actually think this has affected Massa but it can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

But you are purely speculating here, and trying to balance that against a verified fact. It doesnt work like that. Performance between team mates is generally on balance pretty equal, unless there are some exceptional circumstances, like being new to a team or something. I cant recall any big changes.


It's a verified fact that Alonso was quicker than massa last year. It's also a verified fact that there are examples where teammates have been quicker one year but slower another relative to the same teammate. Therefore it's obvious that one season is not sufficient to make a definitive judgement, particularly with respect to the size of the gap in performance between teammates even if it seems obvious that alonso is faster than mass (I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that). You certainly can't take that gap and apply it to different cars in a different season, it's beyond simplistic to state that as some sort of fact.

Massa and kimi are a good example of one teammate being quicker one year but not the next. What changed? Tyres, just like last year...

And if you don't think tyres are such a big issue why are schumi and brawn going on about it so much? Why all the talk about alonso and others having go adjust their driving styles in 2007?

Trulli wasnt quicker than Alonso, so that would have been a waste of time.


Glad I didn't go down that route then! :p

Edited by robefc, 29 January 2011 - 10:45.


#6649 bluestar

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:56

It's a verified fact that Alonso was quicker than massa last year. It's also a verified fact that there are examples where teammates have been quicker one year but slower another relative to the same teammate. Therefore it's obvious that one season is not sufficient to make a definitive judgement, particularly with respect to the size of the gap in performance between teammates even if it seems obvious that alonso is faster than mass (I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that). You certainly can't take that gap and apply it to different cars in a different season, it's beyond simplistic to state that as some sort of fact.

Massa and kimi are a good example of one teammate being quicker one year but not the next. What changed? Tyres, just like last year...


Massa was quicker than Kimi in qualifying in 2008 but their race performances were generally even, so I dont think thats a good example. I cant think of any examples of any big and consistent performance flucations between team mates. If it happens this year will you accept it?

And if you don't think tyres are such a big issue why are schumi and brawn going on about it so much? Why all the talk about alonso and others having go adjust their driving styles in 2007?


Brawn and Michael are making excuses like Massa.

#6650 robefc

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:07

Massa was quicker than Kimi in qualifying in 2008 but their race performances were generally even, so I dont think thats a good example. I cant think of any examples of any big and consistent performance flucations between team mates. If it happens this year will you accept it?


Accept what? That massa is a second slower than Alonso?

Of course a second season of significantly beating massa, particularly with new regulations, would add to the body of evidence supporting him as a much faster/better driver.

I think Alonso is quicker than massa although I think he has more significant advantages as an all round driver in other areas. I just think you are making some pretty definitive statements that are not proven and dismissing other possibilities out of hand.

Edited by robefc, 29 January 2011 - 11:08.