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#6651 kosmos

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:53

The problem with Massa is that his benchmark is not 2008, that was one in a lifetime chance, he did very well in that year I'm not going to take away that from him anyway, but that's not his benchmark.



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#6652 ArtShelley

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 13:16

Is there an example in the history of F1 in which a driver has been faster than his teammate in one year but slower than the same teammate in another year? I suggest there have been several which means the evidence of one season is far too flimsy for you to be making claims that are close to indisputable or where any other possibility is impossible.


Plenty of examples Rob. One that jumps out at me immediately is Kubica vs Heidfeld.

#6653 ArtShelley

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 13:25

The problem with Massa is that his benchmark is not 2008, that was one in a lifetime chance, he did very well in that year I'm not going to take away that from him anyway, but that's not his benchmark.


I see your line of thought - that Massa's performance in the majority of his seasons, except for 2008, has not been anything special so 2008 is an outlier of sorts. However 2008 could certainly be seen as a season displaying Massa's potential. This is the crux of the discussion - based on the outcome of 2010, can we say with certainty that Alonso would have destroyed Massa by the same margin had both been team mates in 2008. Some here think he would have, whereas others - such as me - are saying that there is no certainty as 2010 simply can't be extrapolated like that, because quite possibly each of those two seasons involved over-performance and/or under-performance by the drivers involved. We just don't know.

#6654 JackTorrance

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 13:55

MOntezemolo claims Alonso is the best driver in the world. I agree. Massa can be quick but doesnt seem strong in the head, hence 'Felipe baby'. I hope for Felipe it wont be such a destroying year as 2010 was but I dont think hell get on top of Alonso.

#6655 velgajski1

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 14:36

The problem with Massa is that his benchmark is not 2008, that was one in a lifetime chance, he did very well in that year I'm not going to take away that from him anyway, but that's not his benchmark.


I actually think that both 2007 and 2008 were good benchmarks for Massa (and in both seasons he performed on a similar level).

In 2008. he lost with best car on grid, fact that he beat Kimi doesn't mean much because Kimi was plain horrible that season and not beating him would be really, really shameful. All in all, it wasn't such a great season from Massa as some are trying to perceive. He had a bad start of season and couple of bad races afterwards.

Edited by velgajski1, 29 January 2011 - 14:37.


#6656 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 15:31

There is no possiblly about it, because it was definately unproven, and that is a critical point. Generally accepted by who? Kimi fan boys and some pundits? Thats not worth anything.



I personally don't because if you analyize his best season 2008, you will see he has very inconsistent, and all over the place through most of the season, but that has been ignored and only his best performances have been focused on. Don't forget its all relative and when you go from being compared to Schumacher, a massively consistent driver, to Kimi, you will obviously look more consistent and faster, but that does mean you are. Is it a co incidence that Massa suddenly appeared to lose his speed and consistency, he had since 2007, the moment he was again paired with an exceptional driver like Schumacher?? I don't think. In truth he never had it, and nothing really changed since 2006.


:lol:

#6657 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 15:46

Some accidents may affect more driver s mentality then physique... Suddenly he drives more carefully, thinks about danger and don t take so much risk... Wendlinger never came back to his very solid pace after his Monaco accident and Lauda s perfect raw pace (18 PP in 2 years) was also definitely gone after Nurburgring... But medics gave them a green light, if not they wouldn t drive anymore... Why this
can t be also a case of Massa? I just couldn t recognize him this year, how awfully slow he was... Something was definitely wrong in 2010, if Felipe could be a very fine match for a fast Räikkonen in 2007 and he even beat him in 2008 and 2009...

Edited by marcoferrari, 29 January 2011 - 15:49.


#6658 MichaelPM

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 16:16

Some accidents may affect more driver s mentality then physique... Suddenly he drives more carefully, thinks about danger and don t take so much risk... Wendlinger never came back to his very solid pace after his Monaco accident and Lauda s perfect raw pace (18 PP in 2 years) was also definitely gone after Nurburgring... But medics gave them a green light, if not they wouldn t drive anymore... Why this
can t be also a case of Massa? I just couldn t recognize him this year, how awfully slow he was... Something was definitely wrong in 2010, if Felipe could be a very fine match for a fast Räikkonen in 2007 and he even beat him in 2008 and 2009...

This is actually a clever point that people seem to have failed to bring up but it still little relevance to Massa.
Now in F1 drivers thought processes are taken up mostly by controlling the car and I don't mean by using pedals or turning the wheel, its the buttons on the wheel. The driving they do is purely reflex built up over a life time of racing and adding thinking time to that would drastically slow a driver down due to the relative speed of F1.
I would expect no better than Luca Badoer's pace if Massa suffered mentally from his accident and as it was a freak accident that he would never suffer again then it can't be very mentally scaring, if it was driver error and he had reason to doubt his own ability it could be an issue.

Modern treatment and analyse of brain trauma can't even remotely be compared to decades ago. It's a complex subject to speak about generally but if the doctors can't see a physical issue with Massa's recovery through CT scans and declare him fit to return physically then its the unequivocal truth.

#6659 AlainProstX

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 18:58

In 2008. he lost with best car on grid, fact that he beat Kimi doesn't mean much because Kimi was plain horrible that season and not beating him would be really, really shameful. All in all, it wasn't such a great season from Massa as some are trying to perceive. He had a bad start of season and couple of bad races afterwards.


Sorry to interrupt you, but if "Massa beat Kimi in 2008" doesn`t count because Kimi was so bad that season, then why is "Alonso beat Massa in 2010" counting

Guys, just wait and relax. Massa hasn`t lost it (eventhough I think that he is slowly becoming Ferraris new Nr2-only like Rubens. ). Last season there were several qualifyings were the difference between him and Alonso was small. Especially after the introduction of the EBD in Silverstone/Valencia, sadly he was already Nr2 then.

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#6660 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 19:00

Let's see. Massa drove the F2007, a car which, in Kimi's hands, seems - and 'seems' is the operative word here because there is no quantifiable way to measure those 2 cars - to be on par with the McLaren because they ended up 1 point apart after the whole season. Last season Alonso beat Massa by a hefty margin. So people start wondering if Alonso would have fared better than Massa in the F2007 because, if all things were equal, he really would have. But since we know all things aren't equal, it's just speculative. But there is a line of logic pointing towards that.

And you claim the 2007 McLaren is at least as good as the F2007 on the basis of having watched them compete during 9 months? Even though they were driven by different drivers who have never been team mates at that time, therefore no comparable performance to draw on? Where is the solid base? The car could be faster due to the driver, you seem to totally discount that possibility. You are struggling to make any sense of this mate. More so than going up a 10% slope on a bike I'd say.

PS. you should go to the gym ;)


If you call that "a line of logic", there´s a line of logic pointing to every kind of crazy opposite statements. :wave: So then, anybody could say that "Kimi would have won easily in the MP4/22 cos he was superb in Mclaren cars and he´d have done even better than in the F2007." That´s stupid, cos there´s simply no way to know. Even with that "line of logic" pointing there, I wouldn´t lose any time discussing that. The same for "Rosberg would have beaten Schu in F2004"; I´d lose no time with that. Anyway, I see you do, and I respect it. I don´t think nobody´s mind is about to change about this. At least I give the same value than before to those speculations : 0.

About the second, of course I discount that. After 9 months, you get a good idea of drivers shape and car´s speed. F2007 was slightly faster considering the whole season (more dominating weekends) but had some reliability problems, MP4/22 was slightly slower considering the whole season, but almost bulletproof. I think you´ll surely agree with that bit, cos it happened in front of our eyes.

PS. I´ve had enough of that this Winter, better riding the real thing now.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 29 January 2011 - 19:00.


#6661 Johnrambo

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 19:02

and if it wasnt for bad luck could have beaten Kimi that year.


What a load of ****. :lol:


#6662 cardin

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 00:22

This is actually a clever point that people seem to have failed to bring up but it still little relevance to Massa.
Now in F1 drivers thought processes are taken up mostly by controlling the car and I don't mean by using pedals or turning the wheel, its the buttons on the wheel. The driving they do is purely reflex built up over a life time of racing and adding thinking time to that would drastically slow a driver down due to the relative speed of F1.
I would expect no better than Luca Badoer's pace if Massa suffered mentally from his accident and as it was a freak accident that he would never suffer again then it can't be very mentally scaring, if it was driver error and he had reason to doubt his own ability it could be an issue.

Modern treatment and analyse of brain trauma can't even remotely be compared to decades ago. It's a complex subject to speak about generally but if the doctors can't see a physical issue with Massa's recovery through CT scans and declare him fit to return physically then its the unequivocal truth.


Then you shouldn't.

#6663 HPT

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:12

If you call that "a line of logic", there´s a line of logic pointing to every kind of crazy opposite statements. :wave: So then, anybody could say that "Kimi would have won easily in the MP4/22 cos he was superb in Mclaren cars and he´d have done even better than in the F2007." That´s stupid, cos there´s simply no way to know. Even with that "line of logic" pointing there, I wouldn´t lose any time discussing that. The same for "Rosberg would have beaten Schu in F2004"; I´d lose no time with that. Anyway, I see you do, and I respect it. I don´t think nobody´s mind is about to change about this. At least I give the same value than before to those speculations : 0.

About the second, of course I discount that. After 9 months, you get a good idea of drivers shape and car´s speed. F2007 was slightly faster considering the whole season (more dominating weekends) but had some reliability problems, MP4/22 was slightly slower considering the whole season, but almost bulletproof. I think you´ll surely agree with that bit, cos it happened in front of our eyes.

PS. I´ve had enough of that this Winter, better riding the real thing now.


Congratulations, you've completely missed the point. Yet again. I did say the comparison is speculative. My argument is that it is less speculative than your comparison between the F2007 and the 2007 McLaren. What happened in front of our eyes was that both cars APPEAR to be pretty evenly matched. We do not know how much of it was due to the car and how much of it was due to the drivers, because we have nothing to compare them against, at that time. I realize I'm just wasting my time here. You don't apply logic very well and simply base your arguments on assumptions and unquantified 'evidence', if you can even call it that.

I'll say it one last time - the F2007 and the McLaren appear to be evenly matched because of results. For all you know the F2007 was actually half a sec quicker than the McLaren, but the McLaren drivers were able to compensate for the difference. Is it true? I don't know. And neither do you. So just stop saying it as if it is a fact that the two cars are evenly matched. It is just an assumption. Man, it's like talking to a wall.

#6664 MichaelPM

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:18

Are you guys kidding? the 2007 McLaren was faster and would of scored more points if Alonso wasn't neutered by Ron's novel take on "equality" and if Hamilton didn't drop his 17 point lead in the last two races.

The constructors unofficially ended with Ferrari at 204 points and Mclaren at 218 points.

#6665 robefc

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:22

Are you guys kidding? the 2007 McLaren was faster and would of scored more points if Alonso wasn't neutered by Ron's novel take on "equality" and if Hamilton didn't drop his 17 point lead in the last two races.

The constructors unofficially ended with Ferrari at 204 points and Mclaren at 218 points.


The mclaren MAY have scored more points due to superior reliability and/or drivers without being faster.

So I don't really see your point.

#6666 P123

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:27

Are you guys kidding? the 2007 McLaren was faster and would of scored more points if Alonso wasn't neutered by Ron's novel take on "equality" and if Hamilton didn't drop his 17 point lead in the last two races.

The constructors unofficially ended with Ferrari at 204 points and Mclaren at 218 points.


If Alonso wasn't neutered.... :drunk: Yes, Alonso would have scored more points if he hadn't risked all at turn one in Spain, spent Canada impersonating a spinning top and hadn't crashed out at Fuji. What that has to do with Dennis though I have no idea, except backing Alonso up in the stewards room in Hungary which resulted in McLaren losing their constructors points for that race. Is blaming Dennis some kind of comfort blanket for excusing the fact that the 2007 championship was there for the taking for Alonso? Hopefully one day you will realise that Alonso must shoulder a very large slice of blame for the poor relationship with Dennis and also his own failure in the championship.

#6667 FSA

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:33

Are you people ever gonna stop going on about 2007?
Enough already. Sheesh...

#6668 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:42

I did say the comparison is speculative. My argument is that it is less speculative than your comparison between the F2007 and the 2007 McLaren.



:rolleyes: Oh my God. End of it.


I'll say it one last time - the F2007 and the McLaren appear to be evenly matched because of results. For all you know the F2007 was actually half a sec quicker than the McLaren, but the McLaren drivers were able to compensate for the difference. Is it true? I don't know. And neither do you. So just stop saying it as if it is a fact that the two cars are evenly matched. It is just an assumption. Man, it's like talking to a wall.


So then, let´s spread all kinds of crazy assumptions, and, instead of saying to the guy making them "that´s crazy", let´s bash the guy saying "that´s crazy".

I´ll start. I think BMW Sauber was 1 second faster than both of them, but Kubica was off shape and Heidfeld is simply not good enough. :clap: :clap: Hey, don´t tell me I´m crazy, it MIGHT be true, you don´t know!!

#6669 MichaelPM

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:50

If Alonso wasn't neutered.... :drunk: Yes, Alonso would have scored more points if he hadn't risked all at turn one in Spain, spent Canada impersonating a spinning top and hadn't crashed out at Fuji. What that has to do with Dennis though I have no idea, except backing Alonso up in the stewards room in Hungary which resulted in McLaren losing their constructors points for that race. Is blaming Dennis some kind of comfort blanket for excusing the fact that the 2007 championship was there for the taking for Alonso? Hopefully one day you will realise that Alonso must shoulder a very large slice of blame for the poor relationship with Dennis and also his own failure in the championship.

My blanket of comfort is that my view point of everything F1 is not based on tabloid indulgence or any nationalistic links. I understand the degree of culpability from all parties and I'm not afraid to point the finger at the ones most responsible while being least criticised for it.

#6670 P123

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 18:01

I understand the degree of culpability from all parties and I'm not afraid to point the finger at the ones most responsible while being least criticised for it.


Seems you are doing the opposite. I think we will have to agree to disagree. It's nice though that your view isn't coloured by nationalistic tabloid press. Neither is mine.

Edited by P123, 30 January 2011 - 18:01.


#6671 HPT

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 21:20

:rolleyes: Oh my God. End of it.




So then, let´s spread all kinds of crazy assumptions, and, instead of saying to the guy making them "that´s crazy", let´s bash the guy saying "that´s crazy".

I´ll start. I think BMW Sauber was 1 second faster than both of them, but Kubica was off shape and Heidfeld is simply not good enough. :clap: :clap: Hey, don´t tell me I´m crazy, it MIGHT be true, you don´t know!!


Sure you can say that, but is there any shred of evidence pointing towards that AT ALL? None. Zero. But there is evidence that Alonso is quicker than Massa. Dude, please just stop embarrassing yourself. Actually, it's already too late for that.

My assumption isn't at all crazy. Yours however... :rotfl:

#6672 ArtShelley

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 06:32

Are you guys kidding? the 2007 McLaren was faster and would of scored more points if Alonso wasn't neutered by Ron's novel take on "equality" and if Hamilton didn't drop his 17 point lead in the last two races.


I think the truth came out when Pat Symonds spoke and confirmed that Alonso has a way of working where he expects No.1 but that it didn't fit in with a) a very quick team mate, and b) McLaren's policy of equality. Between Alonso on one side and Dennis on other - both of whom are obviously biased parties and as such their views can't be trusted over the other's, it is obvious that Pat is about as unbiased as we can reasonably get. Not only that, he has said how highly he rates Alonso and the added benefit of working with him for many years - i.e he knows Alonso very, very well.

I don't disagree that Ron could have handled things better that year. In fact both Ron and Whitmarsh have acknowledged that, and hence have taken great steps with both Heikki and Jenson to ensure that whilst balancing the ever important championship aspirations of the team as a whole. But Ron himself has said something very interesting - that when Alonso first joined the team, he tried to convince Ron to put Pedro de la Rosa in the second seat, and actually warned Ron that putting a rookie in there could cost McLaren the championship - not because for the reasons that transpired, but because already then Alonso was analysing the situation and recognised that a rookie would not (be expected) to perform well enough to take valuable points away from Alonso's competitors - the Ferrari drivers. This clearly showed Alonso's thinking - he didn't even remotely consider Hamilton as a threat. Why would he? Rookies don't generally perform at the top level straight away, especially if they haven't had a full year or two of testing. So naturally it must have come as some surprise for Alonso after that first race. Then the next. And the one after.

Alonso is a superb driver, fast, analytical, excellent racecraft - a complete driver and one of the very, very best. But regarding his attitude on where he sees himself with each team he drives for - well the writing is very clearly on the wall. Pat Symonds couldn't have made it any clearer than that. Not that I have a problem with it, as generally Alonso deserves No.1 status and what right does anyone have to complain if the team he's driving for is happy to give it to him. But to blame the majority of 2007 problems on Ron is misleading. Ron had the unenviable task of balancing, on the one hand a No.1 status demanding 2xWDC who he was paying top $$$$$$$$ for whilst on the other hand, a rookie but sure-to-be future star who wouldn't roll over and play and held McLaren up to its policy of equality. There was only one right thing for Ron to do.

PS. If anyone isn't already aware of the quotes I'm referring to, let me know and I'll dig it up.

#6673 gaston_foix

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:16

I think the truth came out when Pat Symonds spoke and confirmed that Alonso has a way of working where he expects No.1 but that it didn't fit in with a) a very quick team mate, and b) McLaren's policy of equality. Between Alonso on one side and Dennis on other - both of whom are obviously biased parties and as such their views can't be trusted over the other's, it is obvious that Pat is about as unbiased as we can reasonably get. Not only that, he has said how highly he rates Alonso and the added benefit of working with him for many years - i.e he knows Alonso very, very well.

I don't disagree that Ron could have handled things better that year. In fact both Ron and Whitmarsh have acknowledged that, and hence have taken great steps with both Heikki and Jenson to ensure that whilst balancing the ever important championship aspirations of the team as a whole. But Ron himself has said something very interesting - that when Alonso first joined the team, he tried to convince Ron to put Pedro de la Rosa in the second seat, and actually warned Ron that putting a rookie in there could cost McLaren the championship - not because for the reasons that transpired, but because already then Alonso was analysing the situation and recognised that a rookie would not (be expected) to perform well enough to take valuable points away from Alonso's competitors - the Ferrari drivers. This clearly showed Alonso's thinking - he didn't even remotely consider Hamilton as a threat. Why would he? Rookies don't generally perform at the top level straight away, especially if they haven't had a full year or two of testing. So naturally it must have come as some surprise for Alonso after that first race. Then the next. And the one after.

Alonso is a superb driver, fast, analytical, excellent racecraft - a complete driver and one of the very, very best. But regarding his attitude on where he sees himself with each team he drives for - well the writing is very clearly on the wall. Pat Symonds couldn't have made it any clearer than that. Not that I have a problem with it, as generally Alonso deserves No.1 status and what right does anyone have to complain if the team he's driving for is happy to give it to him. But to blame the majority of 2007 problems on Ron is misleading. Ron had the unenviable task of balancing, on the one hand a No.1 status demanding 2xWDC who he was paying top $$$$$$$$ for whilst on the other hand, a rookie but sure-to-be future star who wouldn't roll over and play and held McLaren up to its policy of equality. There was only one right thing for Ron to do.

PS. If anyone isn't already aware of the quotes I'm referring to, let me know and I'll dig it up.


:up: Of course Alonso could have handle better in 2007. And I think he learned some lessons by now.

#6674 tifosiMac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:19

Lets move on from 2007. Its the same in any Lewis Hamilton thread and its rather boring reading now. 2011 it is.. :)

#6675 Oho

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:42

Modern treatment and analyse of brain trauma can't even remotely be compared to decades ago. It's a complex subject to speak about generally but if the doctors can't see a physical issue with Massa's recovery through CT scans and declare him fit to return physically then its the unequivocal truth.


No shit Sherlock, the thing of course is that being essentially volume X-Ray CT stack is not particularly well suited for soft tissue imaging let alone assessing brain function. But you knew that.

Edited by Oho, 31 January 2011 - 09:03.


#6676 prty

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 08:03

I think the truth came out when Pat Symonds spoke and confirmed that Alonso has a way of working where he expects No.1 but that it didn't fit in with a) a very quick team mate, and b) McLaren's policy of equality. Between Alonso on one side and Dennis on other - both of whom are obviously biased parties and as such their views can't be trusted over the other's, it is obvious that Pat is about as unbiased as we can reasonably get. Not only that, he has said how highly he rates Alonso and the added benefit of working with him for many years - i.e he knows Alonso very, very well.

I don't disagree that Ron could have handled things better that year. In fact both Ron and Whitmarsh have acknowledged that, and hence have taken great steps with both Heikki and Jenson to ensure that whilst balancing the ever important championship aspirations of the team as a whole. But Ron himself has said something very interesting - that when Alonso first joined the team, he tried to convince Ron to put Pedro de la Rosa in the second seat, and actually warned Ron that putting a rookie in there could cost McLaren the championship - not because for the reasons that transpired, but because already then Alonso was analysing the situation and recognised that a rookie would not (be expected) to perform well enough to take valuable points away from Alonso's competitors - the Ferrari drivers. This clearly showed Alonso's thinking - he didn't even remotely consider Hamilton as a threat. Why would he? Rookies don't generally perform at the top level straight away, especially if they haven't had a full year or two of testing. So naturally it must have come as some surprise for Alonso after that first race. Then the next. And the one after.

Alonso is a superb driver, fast, analytical, excellent racecraft - a complete driver and one of the very, very best. But regarding his attitude on where he sees himself with each team he drives for - well the writing is very clearly on the wall. Pat Symonds couldn't have made it any clearer than that. Not that I have a problem with it, as generally Alonso deserves No.1 status and what right does anyone have to complain if the team he's driving for is happy to give it to him. But to blame the majority of 2007 problems on Ron is misleading. Ron had the unenviable task of balancing, on the one hand a No.1 status demanding 2xWDC who he was paying top $$$$$$$$ for whilst on the other hand, a rookie but sure-to-be future star who wouldn't roll over and play and held McLaren up to its policy of equality. There was only one right thing for Ron to do.

PS. If anyone isn't already aware of the quotes I'm referring to, let me know and I'll dig it up.


2007 talk is so repetitive, but to clarify that, you portaited Symonds as an objective authority. But he and Alonso never got along well, since already his first years in Renault. So you have to read his words with a pinch of salt.

#6677 Smile17

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:59

2007 talk is so repetitive, but to clarify that, you portaited Symonds as an objective authority. But he and Alonso never got along well, since already his first years in Renault. So you have to read his words with a pinch of salt.


Exactly, Symonds is everything but an objective authority.

#6678 JackTorrance

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:10

Can we get back to the issue of Alonso being a Godlike driver? :)

#6679 tifosiMac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:14

What a guy :love:

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#6680 Atic Atac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:22

Can we get back to the issue of Alonso being a Godlike driver? :)


Yup, and some bashing would be welcome also :lol:


#6681 Smile17

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:31

Can we get back to the issue of Alonso being a Godlike driver? :)


Do we really need to discuss something that obvious?  ;)

#6682 tifosiMac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:36

Do we really need to discuss something that obvious? ;)

If it wasn't for inferior cars and a slightly stronger teammate on one occasion he'd be a 6xWDC right now.. :p

#6683 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:42

If it wasn't for inferior cars and a slightly stronger teammate on one occasion he'd be a 6xWDC right now.. :p


teammate and team deciding to hand victory to their rivals, is the phrase you were looking for.  ;)

#6684 tifosiMac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:45

teammate and team deciding to hand victory to their rivals, is the phrase you were looking for. ;)

I wasn't actually, I was just having a laugh. Please take it in the spirit it was intended. :)

#6685 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:47

I wasn't actually, I was just having a laugh. Please take it in the spirit it was intended. :)


No worries, I did! :wave:

#6686 robefc

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:49

teammate and team deciding to hand victory to their rivals, is the phrase you were looking for.;)


Well they did decide to do that but alonso just wouldn't accept the gift! ;)

Edited by robefc, 31 January 2011 - 10:52.


#6687 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:52

Well they did decide to do that but alonso just wouldn't accept the gift ;)


:D Nice one! :up:

For what it's worth, I always had the impression his only objective in the last race was McLaren losing, even at the cost of losing himself. Apart from the first corners, it was one of the most uninspired drives I've ever seen from him. But we'll never know for sure.

#6688 JackTorrance

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:57

The way Fernando grips his steering wheel, is exemplary of His greatness, and the dominant driver that he is today. :up:

#6689 robefc

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:59

:D Nice one! :up:

For what it's worth, I always had the impression his only objective in the last race was McLaren losing, even at the cost of losing himself. Apart from the first corners, it was one of the most uninspired drives I've ever seen from him. But we'll never know for sure.


Thanks!

Civil banter between lewis and alonso fans, whatever next...

Regarding your theory, I think that's up there with the 'mclaren deliberately hobbled lewis because of spygate' conspiracy to be honest.

I'm pretty sure he cares more about himself than any team (in terms of the plus of him being 3xWDC trumps any satisfaction at macca losing) plus winning would have been a kick in the face for his arch enemy ron. Think the ferrari was simply quicker.

Edited by robefc, 31 January 2011 - 10:59.


#6690 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:04

Thanks!

Civil banter between lewis and alonso fans, whatever next...

Regarding your theory, I think that's up there with the 'mclaren deliberately hobbled lewis because of spygate' conspiracy to be honest.

I'm pretty sure he cares more about himself than any team (in terms of the plus of him being 3xWDC trumps any satisfaction at macca losing) plus winning would have been a kick in the face for his arch enemy ron. Think the ferrari was simply quicker.


Maybe, as I said we won't ever know. But have look at Alonsos face on the podium. Ever seen a more smug looking loser?

#6691 robefc

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:08

The way Fernando grips his steering wheel, is exemplary of His greatness, and the dominant driver that he is today. :up:


Loving the capitalised h!

#6692 robefc

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:09

Maybe, as I said we won't ever know. But have look at Alonsos face on the podium. Ever seen a more smug looking loser?


I don't think I've ever seen it, too busy crying and throwing my toys out of the pram at that point plusn trying to work out whether a championship via a protest was ok or not!

But I'm sure he had low expectations of winning and therefore would have been smug that hamilton/macca didn't win.

Edited by robefc, 31 January 2011 - 11:33.


#6693 MichaelPM

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:32

No shit Sherlock, the thing of course is that being essentially volume X-Ray CT stack is not particularly well suited for soft tissue imaging let alone assessing brain function. But you knew that.

Yes I do know that and my post still holds true that it is adequate for accessing physical damage/healing while the rehabilitation process quantifies brain function and efficiency of any "rewiring" required during the healing process.

Should I write 30,000 word posts to cover every detail possible with a given subject so someone can't expand upon it in a way which is not explicitly relevant to the main point of the post?

#6694 AlanWake

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:35

:D Nice one! :up:

For what it's worth, I always had the impression his only objective in the last race was McLaren losing, even at the cost of losing himself. Apart from the first corners, it was one of the most uninspired drives I've ever seen from him. But we'll never know for sure.


You must consider that he was using an old engine while Lewis and Kimi were using a new engine which only had to last 1 race.

#6695 tifosiMac

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 11:58

None of this gets away from the fact Alonso looks like Inspector Clouseau though does it? :p
Posted Image



#6696 marcoferrari

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:05

None of this gets away from the fact Alonso looks like Inspector Clouseau though does it? :p
Posted Image


:lol:

#6697 ArtShelley

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:29

2007 talk is so repetitive, but to clarify that, you portaited Symonds as an objective authority. But he and Alonso never got along well, since already his first years in Renault. So you have to read his words with a pinch of salt.


Source?

#6698 ArtShelley

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:32

Can we get back to the issue of Alonso being a Godlike driver? :)


:p Seriously though, this thread reminds me exactly of the Lewis Hamilton thread. Just goes to show that fans, regardless of the driver, are pretty much the same if you take a large enough sample size. No driver's fan is better or worse than the other. As soon as a driver becomes successful and hence popular, some extreme fans come out of the woodwork. Not referring to you necessarily Jack! Just saying....

#6699 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 13:06

:p Seriously though, this thread reminds me exactly of the Lewis Hamilton thread. Just goes to show that fans, regardless of the driver, are pretty much the same if you take a large enough sample size. No driver's fan is better or worse than the other. As soon as a driver becomes successful and hence popular, some extreme fans come out of the woodwork. Not referring to you necessarily Jack! Just saying....


I find it quite a bit less dense recently, which is not least a compliment for the Mac/Hamilton fans posting here. Ah, now I'v probably jinxed it an the others will come over too...  ;)

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#6700 as65p

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 13:08

Source?


Frankly, you don't really need a source, the Symmonds statement speaks for itself. Nobody would say that about a driver he gets along with well, even if it were true. And I think in Symmonds case we can easily dismiss the other option, that he's just a honest guy always speaking the truth no matter what. :D