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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#6751 Flojoe

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:12

If Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007, then you can say Alonso crushed Hamilton in 2010. Hamilton blew his championship in 2010 at Monza and Singapore with the #2 WCC car. Alonso finished two places in front of him with a #3 WCC car. No wonder why Hamilton fans keep living in 2007.


Why not focus on the current 2011 season and Alonso's prospects with the Ferrari car....instead of bursting a vessel screaming Hammy all over the place.....the thread belongs to Alonso and yet you are ready to turn it into a Hammy/ Alonso competition....grow up...get real...get your facts right and stop being an armchair critic.........

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#6752 Smile17

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:13

Both were losers in 2010, as they were in 2007, and both had a #2 WCC at some point during the 2010 season. Neither the Ferrari or the McLaren were consistently better than the other over a period of time so I feel you have made a false claim there. Its sad that these are the two best drivers on the grid and fans seem obsessed with trying to understand why one beat the other during one season and vice versa. Move on ffs.


Keep telling that to yourself, maybe it will become truth  ;)

#6753 Smile17

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:14

Why not focus on the current 2011 season and Alonso's prospects with the Ferrari car....instead of bursting a vessel screaming Hammy all over the place.....the thread belongs to Alonso and yet you are ready to turn it into a Hammy/ Alonso competition....grow up...get real...get your facts right and stop being an armchair critic.........


You should get back a few pages to find the one who started it! I guess test times are boring and mean nothing at this moment...

#6754 Flojoe

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:22

Sheezz! Talk about proper directions :lol: Get back to your dream world please!


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#6755 tifosiMac

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:23

Keep telling that to yourself, maybe it will become truth ;)

Theres a little more depth to it than looking at a couple of races where either Lewis or Fernando messed up, and these forums would be alot more intelligible if certain fans appreciated that every F1 team commits to a development race every season, and cars evolve throughout the course of a season. This 'my driver is better than your driver nah nah nah nah' mentality is bordering on pathetic and down right embarrassing. :well:

#6756 tifosiMac

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:25

I stand by my original observation... :)

None of this gets away from the fact Alonso looks like Inspector Clouseau though does it? :p
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#6757 Smile17

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 14:49

Don't worry, Alonso's facial hair period will soon be over, as he gets back to his more standard look á la F1angel..

#6758 ArtShelley

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 15:04

Who cares about Lewis. I'm talking about Nando and whether he will fling toys out of the pram in the future if ever he once again comes up against a team mate who challenges him (or even beats him like happened in 2007).

It's a fine line. Any driver that accepts defeat will probably never be a great. Alonso and the other top drivers have this quality. It's how they turn that defeat into positivity to drive them, or paranoia to self destruct - that's the important thing.

#6759 tifosiMac

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 19:13

This thread is to discuss anything about the great man that is Fernando Alonso. Be it his performance in testing, his championship hopes for 2011, his facial hair, and most likely his most famous season in his career so far 2007 regretably. If people poke a little light hearted fun I don't see a problem as long as its not offensive. :)

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#6760 fabr68

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 21:47

This thread is to discuss anything about the great man that is Fernando Alonso. Be it his performance in testing, his championship hopes for 2011, his facial hair, and most likely his most famous season in his career so far 2007 regretably. If people poke a little light hearted fun I don't see a problem as long as its not offensive. :)


Why the focus on 2007 only? How about all the other seasons. There seems to be a fixation on 2007 used as a justification to troll in this thread. How about discussing the Fernando Alonso of today and how he did in 2010 both on and off the track?

Edited by fabr68, 01 February 2011 - 21:49.


#6761 Callisto

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 23:18

Why the focus on 2007 only? How about all the other seasons. There seems to be a fixation on 2007 used as a justification to troll in this thread. How about discussing the Fernando Alonso of today and how he did in 2010 both on and off the track?

This thread is to discuss past and present seasons of alonso,so 2007 is relavent in discussing alonsos career

Edited by Callisto, 01 February 2011 - 23:19.


#6762 showtime

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 23:29

This thread is to discuss anything about the great man that is Fernando Alonso. Be it his performance in testing, his championship hopes for 2011, his facial hair, and most likely his most famous season in his career so far 2007 regretably. If people poke a little light hearted fun I don't see a problem as long as its not offensive. :)


I think he won something on 2005 & 2006 but I can't remember what... :drunk: :rolleyes:


#6763 speng

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 01:27

I think he won something on 2005 & 2006 but I can't remember what... :drunk: :rolleyes:


Yes he did, the WDC, dethroning Michael Schumacher in the process, quite a feat and because he was beaten 2007 by Hamilton is the reason why 2007 is discussed/debated so much. 2007 was an exciting season and full of drama thanks to Alonso.

#6764 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:10

I think he won something on 2005 & 2006 but I can't remember what... :drunk: :rolleyes:

Thats exactly my point though isn't it?
Unfortunately nobody on internet forums wants to talk about the brilliance of a driver and his most successful achievements. The most common topic is Lewis and Fernando in 2007. Kind of sad really. :|

@fabr68 : You've missed my point.

Edited by tifosiMac, 02 February 2011 - 07:12.


#6765 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:15

For all you fans: today the King of F1, Fernando Alonso, will set his royal rear end inside the new F150 Ferrari again, and will majestically do a lot of testing laps. Hail the King!!

#6766 f12011

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 01:37

We still haven't learned from the Villeneuve-Hill-Frentzen comparison, it seems.

Hill beat Villeneuve in '96; Villeneuve beat Frentzen in '97; Frentzen beat Hill in '99.

Also consider these:

Alonso > Fisichella > Massa = Räikkönen. But Räikkönen destroyed Fisichella at Ferrari. If you say Massa > Räikkönen then it's even worse.

Hamilton > Kovalainen = Fisichella > Button. Which basically means Hamilton should had had an even bigger advantage over Button than over Kovalainen. It didn't happen.

Heidfeld had the better of Kubica in 2007, Kubica had the better of Heidfeld in 2008, they were evenly matched in 2009.

Barrichello used to match and even beat Button on poor cars (2007 and 2008), but was blown away in 2008 and 2009.


Different drivers in different cars designed to different rules with different tyres and different engines against different drivers and at different points of their careers CAN'T be compared. But I'm stating the obvious.



I don't think bluestar means that every comparision is equal because they are not. Some involve mitigating factors that can make the comparison much weaker, because all things are not equal, and your examples are perfect examples of this.

1. Villeneve was a rookie against Hill. The regulations in 99 were enormously different from 1996, with grooved tyres compared to slicks, so this comparison is a useless measurement because of these factors.

2, Button was far less experienced than Fisichella in 2002.

3. Fisichella jumped into a new team and car mid season with no testing, and was a few months before retirement. That is not comparable to a prime fisichella established at Renault.

4. Rubens was not blown away by Button in 08/09, they have always been evenly matched in speed, except for 2006 when Rubens had braking issues.


Unlike these examples you listed, the Massa-Alonso= Kimi comparision is almost perfect. 2 drivers swapping seats in a successive season, with Massa remaining, and a minimal regulation change. As I explained its far more equal than the hill, villeneuve one. Of course if you are not capable of true analysis, and just blindly want to pluck any comparision out of the air, then of course it might end up being confusing, but all it takes is a little bit of analysis to sort out the meaningful data from the rest.

#6767 f12011

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 01:42

Oh but it is related to 2011. The topic originally started on speculation whether Alonso would handle it better if (however unlikely it seems) Massa does start beating him in some races this season. The 2011 season. Relevant to this discussion is how he handled it in 2007 and whether he has learnt from that (I think he has) but possible that though he has learnt from it when reflecting back when calm and rational, it could be different in the heat of the moment when the red mist descends.


I guess you must have missed a number of races last year when massa spent the entire race holding up Alonso and ended up beating him? Australia, Malaysia? I think you already got your answer. There was no trouble, Alonso just focused on beating Massa which he did.

#6768 f12011

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 02:05

You're correct, I don't remember Alonso screaming for No.1 status. I do however clearly remember him weaving towards the stands on the main straight at Indianapolis with his trademark fist out of the car enraged like a mad bull because McLaren wouldn't ask the No.2 to move over. :rotfl:


How do you know Alonso wasnt enraged because Mclaren had ordered Alonso to hold position behind their golden boy? You don't do you? But I guess its easier to just make up stories to bash a driver you dislike.

#6769 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 02:23

How do you know Alonso wasnt enraged because Mclaren had ordered Alonso to hold position behind their golden boy? You don't do you? But I guess its easier to just make up stories to bash a driver you dislike.


That was a defining moment for McLaren 2007. Had they gotten the call right and moved the slower car out of Alonso's way McLaren and Alonso would have been 2007 winners. Instead all were losers and we also saw both McLaren and Alonso humiliated with the fist shake at the pit wall. What a 'team'.

#6770 velgajski1

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 08:42

That was a defining moment for McLaren 2007. Had they gotten the call right and moved the slower car out of Alonso's way McLaren and Alonso would have been 2007 winners. Instead all were losers and we also saw both McLaren and Alonso humiliated with the fist shake at the pit wall. What a 'team'.


No driver is bigger than McLaren, especially not Fernando Alonso. Team with legacy of legends like Senna cannot be manipulated by likes of Fernando. McLaren did the right thing in 2007., which is shown in 2008. already.

Teams like Renault or similar can be dominated by a single strong driver, but in teams like Ferrari and McLaren you have to earn it. Fernando would probably succeed in McLaren but he just had a bad luck of getting Lewis Hamilton as teammate.

Edited by velgajski1, 05 February 2011 - 08:44.


#6771 BalazsF1

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 08:45

Fernando travelled after Valencia to Maranello. It fasinates me that he works so hard. I have never seen such a hard-working driver in Formula-1 with the exaption of Michael Schumacher.
I really love Fernando's approach to this sport and I love his motivation better day by day.

#6772 macstar

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 09:16

Fernando travelled after Valencia to Maranello. It fasinates me that he works so hard. I have never seen such a hard-working driver in Formula-1 with the exaption of Michael Schumacher.
I really love Fernando's approach to this sport and I love his motivation better day by day.


thats indeed the strong point of alonso. his predecessor only used to travel into pubs and bars. :rotfl:

#6773 f12011

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 09:32

:lol:

#6774 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 11:31

No driver is bigger than McLaren, especially not Fernando Alonso. Team with legacy of legends like Senna cannot be manipulated by likes of Fernando. McLaren did the right thing in 2007., which is shown in 2008. already.

Teams like Renault or similar can be dominated by a single strong driver, but in teams like Ferrari and McLaren you have to earn it. Fernando would probably succeed in McLaren but he just had a bad luck of getting Lewis Hamilton as teammate.


If it's a better or worse thing remains to be seen, the jury is still out on that.

Let's see after another 5 to 8 years if Hamilton has lived up to the expectations of bringing at least another two WDCs to McLaren. Then we can say that the team has likely chosen the right driver to support.

As it stands, I'd say they traded 2 WDCs with Alonso (07/08) against one with Hamilton (08). Not the best of deals at this point in time.

#6775 boldhakka

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 11:56

If it's a better or worse thing remains to be seen, the jury is still out on that.

Let's see after another 5 to 8 years if Hamilton has lived up to the expectations of bringing at least another two WDCs to McLaren. Then we can say that the team has likely chosen the right driver to support.

As it stands, I'd say they traded 2 WDCs with Alonso (07/08) against one with Hamilton (08). Not the best of deals at this point in time.


I suspect McLaren is at a stage where they have the luxury of looking at other parameters in their measure of success in addition to number of WDCs. The fact that they've been comfortable with the decision since then (so has Alonso), shows that it was the right deal. It would be a different matter if they regretted parting with Alonso (likewise for Alonso).

#6776 f12011

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:04

I suspect McLaren is at a stage where they have the luxury of looking at other parameters in their measure of success in addition to number of WDCs.


F1 teams exist to win wc's, that is the only true measure of success in the sport. Mclarens decision has already cost them three wc's, and thats only just the beginning. Instead of having Alonso working for them they now have to face a regrouped Alonso in a ferrari for close to another decade. The damage against mclaren over that time will be immeasurable.

#6777 ferrarijon123

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:08

F1 teams exist to win wc's, that is the only true measure of success in the sport. Mclarens decision has already cost them three wc's, and thats only just the beginning. Instead of having Alonso working for them they now have to face a regrouped Alonso in a ferrari for close to another decade. The damage against mclaren over that time will be immeasurable.

i totally agree with you, im very sure alonso would've got more points than kovalienen in 08 and 09 and probably would've scored more points than jenson last year.

#6778 robefc

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:08

If it's a better or worse thing remains to be seen, the jury is still out on that.

Let's see after another 5 to 8 years if Hamilton has lived up to the expectations of bringing at least another two WDCs to McLaren. Then we can say that the team has likely chosen the right driver to support.

As it stands, I'd say they traded 2 WDCs with Alonso (07/08) against one with Hamilton (08). Not the best of deals at this point in time.


Well firstly we can't say that about 2008 with any certainty, I agree it's likely if you discount hamilton but are you? Or is he still there in 2008?

And with 2 races to go in 2007 backing him for the title probably looked like a good bet and, although he was clearly not blameless, if the team hadn't completely messed up in china and/or the mech issue hadn't arisen in brazil then he'd have been WDC. I don't mention this to bring back the debate about who's fault it was etc but simply to show that there is far more to it than the driver. How do we know other things wouldn't have arisen if they had backed alonso? Or whether they'd have won it if they'd backed hamilton from the start?

If we look to the future then we we can't say what level of success would justify keeping hamilton over alonso because too much depends on the car. A RB-esque advantage over the rest of the grid (with reliability) and you'd want say 6 WDCs out of 8, if they build 8 dogs then none would be expected and of course everything in between. Would alonso have won in the car last year? Possibly...but then again lewis might if you re-ran the season, more likely vettel would win by a greater margin.

Lastly I think it's safe to say if lewis hadn't got the seat in 2007 it's likely that alonso would be a 4 x champ and maybe still there. If alonso had handled it better that may also be true. But macca couldn't possibly predict how things would unfold and there may have come a point in 2007 when it did not come down to a purely logical decision. There are more factors than simply the level of success that hamilton brings to decide whether it was the 'right' decision.



#6779 robefc

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:10

F1 teams exist to win wc's, that is the only true measure of success in the sport. Mclarens decision has already cost them three wc's, and thats only just the beginning. Instead of having Alonso working for them they now have to face a regrouped Alonso in a ferrari for close to another decade. The damage against mclaren over that time will be immeasurable.


Ridiculously simplistic.

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#6780 Smile17

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:17

McLaren would likely not have even won the WDC in 2008 if Alonso didn't join them in 07.

#6781 boldhakka

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:17

F1 teams exist to win wc's, that is the only true measure of success in the sport. Mclarens decision has already cost them three wc's, and thats only just the beginning. Instead of having Alonso working for them they now have to face a regrouped Alonso in a ferrari for close to another decade. The damage against mclaren over that time will be immeasurable.


They seem OK with that. And they'll do fine for decades to come. :)

#6782 Smile17

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:18

They seem OK with that. And they'll do fine for decades to come. :)


 ;)

#6783 boldhakka

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:20

McLaren would likely not have even won the WDC in 2008 if Alonso didn't join them in 07.


Yep, and Alonso would have won in 2010 if Kimi hadn't messed up the development up to and including 2009.

#6784 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:21

Well firstly we can't say that about 2008 with any certainty, I agree it's likely if you discount hamilton but are you? Or is he still there in 2008?

And with 2 races to go in 2007 backing him for the title probably looked like a good bet and, although he was clearly not blameless, if the team hadn't completely messed up in china and/or the mech issue hadn't arisen in brazil then he'd have been WDC. I don't mention this to bring back the debate about who's fault it was etc but simply to show that there is far more to it than the driver. How do we know other things wouldn't have arisen if they had backed alonso? Or whether they'd have won it if they'd backed hamilton from the start?

If we look to the future then we we can't say what level of success would justify keeping hamilton over alonso because too much depends on the car. A RB-esque advantage over the rest of the grid (with reliability) and you'd want say 6 WDCs out of 8, if they build 8 dogs then none would be expected and of course everything in between. Would alonso have won in the car last year? Possibly...but then again lewis might if you re-ran the season, more likely vettel would win by a greater margin.

Lastly I think it's safe to say if lewis hadn't got the seat in 2007 it's likely that alonso would be a 4 x champ and maybe still there. If alonso had handled it better that may also be true. But macca couldn't possibly predict how things would unfold and there may have come a point in 2007 when it did not come down to a purely logical decision. There are more factors than simply the level of success that hamilton brings to decide whether it was the 'right' decision.


I honestly didn't want to go into detail about 2007 again. Yes I believe with at least 90 percent certainty that Alonso would won 07 and 08 had the relationship not turned sour mid 2007 (for reason which again are beaten to death and I won't go into again). That's all speculation obviously, as I readily admit.

What's fact OTOH is that McLaren won a single WDC after falling out with Alonso. Given the cars they built during those 4 years that's hardly an overwhelming proof of doing the right thing in 2007 (as velgajski1, to whom I replied, suggested).

That's why I maintain the jury is still out.

#6785 robefc

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:24

I honestly didn't want to go into detail about 2007 again. Yes I believe with at least 90 percent certainty that Alonso would won 07 and 08 had the relationship not turned sour mid 2007 (for reason which again are beaten to death and I won't go into again). That's all speculation obviously, as I readily admit.

What's fact OTOH is that McLaren won a single WDC after falling out with Alonso. Given the cars they built during those 4 years that's hardly an overwhelming proof of doing the right thing in 2007 (as velgajski1, to whom I replied, suggested).

That's why I maintain the jury is still out.


Oh I agree with that within the context of pure success and ignoring the circumstances of 2007, which I also don't want to get back into!

#6786 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:34

Oh I agree with that within the context of pure success and ignoring the circumstances of 2007, which I also don't want to get back into!


:up: :)

#6787 velgajski1

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:34

If it's a better or worse thing remains to be seen, the jury is still out on that.

Let's see after another 5 to 8 years if Hamilton has lived up to the expectations of bringing at least another two WDCs to McLaren. Then we can say that the team has likely chosen the right driver to support.

As it stands, I'd say they traded 2 WDCs with Alonso (07/08) against one with Hamilton (08). Not the best of deals at this point in time.


Thats one way of looking at it. I personally am not sure Alonso would win 2008. title, but no matter, lets presume he would (he would definitely have a good chance at least).

Even in that case, being SO unfair to one driver (Hamilton, after his first 6-7 races of 2007.) would be something that would make McLaren lose a lot of its fans (perhaps myself included). Ron clearly said - we want to turn '07 into a two car McLaren interteam battle (as soon as he realised how good Hamilton really is) - they failed as Kimi won WDC, but I have massive respect for Ron for not being like Flavio.

Also, another way of looking at it is this - if they simply kicked Alonso from the team after Hungary and replaced him with Pedro - Lewis Hamilton would easily won the 2007. title (there would be no needs for China risks for example, also in some other races Pedro would not take points from Hamilton like Alonso did) and that would be another option of winning 07 and 08 titles.

Bottom line is - they lost 2007. title because they wanted Senna/Prost kind of showdown - they got it and its one of the most talked seasons ever (and will be talked for years and years). Thats one hell of a marketing strategy if you want so.

Edited by velgajski1, 05 February 2011 - 12:44.


#6788 P123

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:38

As it stands, I'd say they traded 2 WDCs with Alonso (07/08) against one with Hamilton (08). Not the best of deals at this point in time.


I'm afraid Alonso had ample opportunity to win the WDC in 07, and he blew it himself. McLaren didn't get any raw deal. Hamilton won in 2008, as Alonso potentially could have also. Alonso got the raw deal by means of his own stupidity. A potential 2 WDCs thrown away because of a petulant sulk.

Edited by P123, 05 February 2011 - 12:41.


#6789 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:49

I'm afraid Alonso had ample opportunity to win the WDC in 07, and he blew it himself.


Well, I'm afraid he wouldn't have blown it if he wasn't hampered by McLarens unique version of equality.

Alonso got the raw deal by means of his own stupidity. A potential 2 WDCs thrown away because of a petulant sulk.


Ah, now it's two again?  ;) I agree with the bolded!

All I object too is that bold claim of some Mac/Hamilton fans that McLaren has nothing to regret and reacted completely right without any doubts. IF Hamilton had 3 WDCs to his name by now, THEN you could say that, but certainly not now.

#6790 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:52

Thats one way of looking at it. I personally am not sure Alonso would win 2008. title, but no matter, lets presume he would (he would definitely have a good chance at least).

Even in that case, being SO unfair to one driver (Hamilton, after his first 6-7 races of 2007.) would be something that would make McLaren lose a lot of its fans (perhaps myself included). Ron clearly said - we want to turn '07 into a two car McLaren interteam battle (as soon as he realised how good Hamilton really is) - they failed as Kimi won WDC, but I have massive respect for Ron for not being like Flavio.

Also, another way of looking at it is this - if they simply kicked Alonso from the team after Hungary and replaced him with Pedro - Lewis Hamilton would easily won the 2007. title (there would be no needs for China risks for example, also in some other races Pedro would not take points from Hamilton like Alonso did) and that would be another option of winning 07 and 08 titles.


Sure. Goes both ways, as I'm sure you're aware. Alonso and PdlR would have been a nice pairing too...  ;)

Bottom line is - they lost 2007. title because they wanted Senna/Prost kind of showdown - they got it and its one of the most talked seasons ever (and will be talked for years and years). Thats one hell of a marketing strategy if you want so.


In a way, yes. Only that the Prost/Senna war didn't cost McLaren any titles.


#6791 velgajski1

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:59

Sure. Goes both ways, as I'm sure you're aware. Alonso and PdlR would have been a nice pairing too... ;)



In a way, yes. Only that the Prost/Senna war didn't cost McLaren any titles.


Agreed, I don't look at things black and white like some people do. I just respect McLaren (and am their fan) for being a bit more leaned towards intra-team battles then some other teams. Maybe it is a small bit, but it still emerges in McLaren from time to time.

#6792 P123

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 13:15

Well, I'm afraid he wouldn't have blown it if he wasn't hampered by McLarens unique version of equality.



Ah, now it's two again? ;) I agree with the bolded!

All I object too is that bold claim of some Mac/Hamilton fans that McLaren has nothing to regret and reacted completely right without any doubts. IF Hamilton had 3 WDCs to his name by now, THEN you could say that, but certainly not now.


So where were McLaren 'unequal' to Alonso? By not ordering Hamilton to move over in Indy? Where? Some people swear blind that McLaren favoured Alonso in Monaco or that McLaren favoured Button last year. They have colourful stories to back up those assertions, but they are clearly both nonsense. To the same degree any assertion that McLaren were against Alonso is nonsense. Don't dismiss the fact that his behaviour would hardly endear himself to the team. All of Alonos's late season paranoia culminated in an FIA observer in the McLaren garage in Brazil. Yet he was still slower. No more excuses. On the podium he could only console himself with the fact that his teammate didn't win. Had he screwed his head on an overcome his mental fragility in situations where he found himself slower than his teammate (as seen during his Renault days) then he would be have won the WDC. You can't blame everything on McLaren, unless you expect them to hinder Hamilton, even though he was in the WDC fight himself. By throwing it off track in Spain and Canada and failing to beat Hamilton in Indy, crashing out in Fuji.... he didn't exactly make it easy for McLaren to favour him.

As for Hamilton's theoretical 3WDC, I don't see Alonso having 3 WDC either. He lost it on his own in 2007, and neither did he win in 2010. Exactly the same as Hamilton. Could have won in 2008, as Hamilton did. McLaren didn't lose out on anything. Had Alonso stayed, Hamilton would still have been there in '08, still the same problem for Alonso to handle.

#6793 as65p

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 13:34

So where were McLaren 'unequal' to Alonso? By not ordering Hamilton to move over in Indy? Where? Some people swear blind that McLaren favoured Alonso in Monaco or that McLaren favoured Button last year. They have colourful stories to back up those assertions, but they are clearly both nonsense. To the same degree any assertion that McLaren were against Alonso is nonsense. Don't dismiss the fact that his behaviour would hardly endear himself to the team. All of Alonos's late season paranoia culminated in an FIA observer in the McLaren garage in Brazil. Yet he was still slower. No more excuses. On the podium he could only console himself with the fact that his teammate didn't win. Had he screwed his head on an overcome his mental fragility in situations where he found himself slower than his teammate (as seen during his Renault days) then he would be have won the WDC. You can't blame everything on McLaren, unless you expect them to hinder Hamilton, even though he was in the WDC fight himself. By throwing it off track in Spain and Canada and failing to beat Hamilton in Indy, crashing out in Fuji.... he didn't exactly make it easy for McLaren to favour him.

As for Hamilton's theoretical 3WDC, I don't see Alonso having 3 WDC either. He lost it on his own in 2007, and neither did he win in 2010. Exactly the same as Hamilton. Could have won in 2008, as Hamilton did. McLaren didn't lose out on anything. Had Alonso stayed, Hamilton would still have been there in '08, still the same problem for Alonso to handle.


Not for this thread, and no important issue to me anymore, anyway. I have my opinion which differs from yours. True facts are rare in both our opinions, I'd say. If you must believe that McLaren were absolutely right and not need to regret anything about how things went, so be it.

Let's leave it at that, shall we? :kiss: :eek:

;)

Edited by as65p, 05 February 2011 - 13:34.


#6794 Smile17

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 13:34

I mean come on to be honest, performances on track and drivers skills are just a small part of what happens in F1 or what really matters when decisions are taken, like it or not. So if you really want to figure out the truth, you should know what is attractive business wise, what the preferences are of the important men, take the underlying agenda's into account, the games played, nepotism, sponsor preferences etc.. F1 is 50% politics, 40% business and 10% sport



#6795 MichaelPM

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 14:10

So where were McLaren 'unequal' to Alonso? By not ordering Hamilton to move over in Indy? Where? Some people swear blind that McLaren favoured Alonso in Monaco or that McLaren favoured Button last year. They have colourful stories to back up those assertions, but they are clearly both nonsense. To the same degree any assertion that McLaren were against Alonso is nonsense. Don't dismiss the fact that his behaviour would hardly endear himself to the team. All of Alonos's late season paranoia culminated in an FIA observer in the McLaren garage in Brazil. Yet he was still slower. No more excuses. On the podium he could only console himself with the fact that his teammate didn't win. Had he screwed his head on an overcome his mental fragility in situations where he found himself slower than his teammate (as seen during his Renault days) then he would be have won the WDC. You can't blame everything on McLaren, unless you expect them to hinder Hamilton, even though he was in the WDC fight himself. By throwing it off track in Spain and Canada and failing to beat Hamilton in Indy, crashing out in Fuji.... he didn't exactly make it easy for McLaren to favour him.

As for Hamilton's theoretical 3WDC, I don't see Alonso having 3 WDC either. He lost it on his own in 2007, and neither did he win in 2010. Exactly the same as Hamilton. Could have won in 2008, as Hamilton did. McLaren didn't lose out on anything. Had Alonso stayed, Hamilton would still have been there in '08, still the same problem for Alonso to handle.

The teams behaviour would hardly endear them to him or his family.

#6796 speng

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 14:32

Thats one way of looking at it. I personally am not sure Alonso would win 2008. title, but no matter, lets presume he would (he would definitely have a good chance at least).

Even in that case, being SO unfair to one driver (Hamilton, after his first 6-7 races of 2007.) would be something that would make McLaren lose a lot of its fans (perhaps myself included). Ron clearly said - we want to turn '07 into a two car McLaren interteam battle (as soon as he realised how good Hamilton really is) - they failed as Kimi won WDC, but I have massive respect for Ron for not being like Flavio.

Also, another way of looking at it is this - if they simply kicked Alonso from the team after Hungary and replaced him with Pedro - Lewis Hamilton would easily won the 2007. title (there would be no needs for China risks for example, also in some other races Pedro would not take points from Hamilton like Alonso did) and that would be another option of winning 07 and 08 titles.

Bottom line is - they lost 2007. title because they wanted Senna/Prost kind of showdown - they got it and its one of the most talked seasons ever (and will be talked for years and years). Thats one hell of a marketing strategy if you want so.


I totally agree, Alonso should have been fired for his behavior and more than likely Hamilton would have won the WDC. Not firing Alonso was Ron Dennis a failure

#6797 P123

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 15:08

Let's leave it at that, shall we? :kiss: :eek:

;)


Agreed. It's very old ground. Best of luck to FA in 2011- he is overdue another WDC.

#6798 Smile17

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 15:34

I totally agree, Alonso should have been fired for his behavior and more than likely Hamilton would have won the WDC. Not firing Alonso was Ron Dennis a failure


Some people really make me laugh! :kiss:

#6799 DanardiF1

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 17:09

Well, I'm afraid he wouldn't have blown it if he wasn't hampered by McLarens unique version of equality.



Ah, now it's two again? ;) I agree with the bolded!

All I object too is that bold claim of some Mac/Hamilton fans that McLaren has nothing to regret and reacted completely right without any doubts. IF Hamilton had 3 WDCs to his name by now, THEN you could say that, but certainly not now.


It is unique in that there is barely any evidence of this team favouring any of their drivers in recent history. They play the equality game more than any other F1 team, and it's down to the driver to prove that he is better than the other all things being equal. Alonso and Hamilton proved that things were equal by finishing on the same points at the end of the year, but the implication for Alonso was that he should've been able to handle a rookie like Hamilton. He couldn't, and made several mistakes trying to assert his authority over him. Hamilton made his own mistakes too, but he was a rookie and didn't have the experience of his two-time champion teammate.

It wasn't an indictment on Alonso, but it showed that this Hamilton kid was pretty special. It was Alonso's reluctance to compete with his teammate on an equal footing, and his paranoia that Hamilton had to have favourable treatment to even get near him, that caused his exit from the team. Alonso thought he was bigger than the team (to use a football analogy) and everyone knows no-one is ever bigger than the team.

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#6800 speng

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 20:16

So where were McLaren 'unequal' to Alonso? By not ordering Hamilton to move over in Indy? Where? Some people swear blind that McLaren favoured Alonso in Monaco or that McLaren favoured Button last year. They have colourful stories to back up those assertions, but they are clearly both nonsense. To the same degree any assertion that McLaren were against Alonso is nonsense. Don't dismiss the fact that his behaviour would hardly endear himself to the team. 1. All of Alonos's late season paranoia culminated in an FIA observer in the McLaren garage in Brazil. Yet he was still slower. No more excuses. On the podium he could only console himself with the fact that his teammate didn't win. 2. Had he screwed his head on an overcome his mental fragility in situations where he found himself slower than his teammate (as seen during his Renault days) then he would be have won the WDC. 3. You can't blame everything on McLaren, unless you expect them to hinder Hamilton, even though he was in the WDC fight himself. By throwing it off track in Spain and Canada and failing to beat Hamilton in Indy, crashing out in Fuji.... he didn't exactly make it easy for McLaren to favour him.

As for Hamilton's theoretical 3WDC, 4. I don't see Alonso having 3 WDC either. He lost it on his own in 2007, and neither did he win in 2010. Exactly the same as Hamilton. Could have won in 2008, as Hamilton did. McLaren didn't lose out on anything. Had Alonso stayed, Hamilton would still have been there in '08, still the same problem for Alonso to handle.


You make a number of good points all of whch I agree with