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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#7851 Kohque

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:21

Alonso had the audacity to claim that he was "happy to help the FIA clear up the spygate scandal". That shows a total lack of respect if you ask me. To everyone that was hit hard by it. Not only was he heavily involved. He was also summoned to explain himself. But he is trying to make it sound like he was some kind of heroic whistleblower that cleared things up. When in fact he was one of the perpetrators. I gotta hand it to him. Its a clever choice of words and he may fool a lot of people with it. But not me.


Yeah, the guy was a real bold :lol: He should have said "I didn't want to cooperate. I did it because they force me to"... And then he will be called a chicken or a liar or whatever people think is a "clever choice of words".

Dude, when you don't like someone, you are always going to listen to what he says with your rear, so no matter what it is, it will always give you a funny smell.

He was heavily involved... Yeah, nice "choice of words". It looks like he was the mastermind behind the whole thing. He basically requested Ron Dennis to use the Ferrari specs, or else... :rolleyes:

What whistleblower? Tell me exactly what would you do if the FIA asks you to testify in relation to some personal emails which prove your team, and YOU, were cheating... You would refuse, we all know, and then put a brave face to the whatever penalty the FIA consider proper. Or, if you were in your right mind, you may consider to clear yourself as much as possible from any involvement in the scandal. But I guess that is only a right that villains cannot enjoy. :rolleyes:

The question is not if he should had testify or not (duh!), but how did the FIA got the emails? Did Alonso just hand it to them and say "hey dudes, look at me cheating!"? :cool:

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#7852 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:25

It always amuses me to see people claim they can tell what level of passion a driver has. Newsflash - you cant. And especially when we are talking about a character like Kimi. He has always marched to the beat of his own drum and his finnish and secluded personality makes naive people think they can tell exactly what his passion, emotions and dedication is. Again, you cant. Even with Alonso who plays the media and some of his fans like a fiddle, you cant exactly know what is going on in there. He is just very good at saying all the right things that make his followers feel all gooey inside. That was never Kimis strength. If that indeed is a strength.

Your statement of "Kimi has no respect for anyone" just shows you do not have a clue of what you are talking about.
Alonso had the audacity to claim that he was "happy to help the FIA clear up the spygate scandal". That shows a total lack of respect if you ask me. To everyone that was hit hard by it. Not only was he heavily involved. He was also summoned to explain himself. But he is trying to make it sound like he was some kind of heroic whistleblower that cleared things up. When in fact he was one of the perpetrators. I gotta hand it to him. Its a clever choice of words and he may fool a lot of people with it. But not me.


Thank you very much, but I prefer this "pain in the ass" Alonso at Ferrari that the guy who's passion was pubs, vodka and "icecream". And Ferrari share my opinion too.

Edited by aragon, 29 April 2011 - 07:28.


#7853 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:50

Users can't take it seriously what you are posting when you came with Vettel is okay when he is doing this but Alonso is not by doing the same thing. Calling like "you see" it doesn't mean it isn't a bias, especially when you see the same thing in too different ways(one for Vetel and other for Alonso). Really... Alonso's gesture toward Petrov was a frustrating unnecessary stupid thing as was Vettel's.

By posting here nonsenses like this you prove that you do care about him trying to put him in a negative light as much as you can.

I cant help it if you cannot understand simple logic. If a person makes a mistake once or even twice, fine. It happens. That was my point with Vettel. I cant recall him making rude gestures other than in Turkey. But when it continually happens with the Spaniard again and again, its a different matter. And it gets noticed.

You know what, it's not Alonso's fault that Kimi has been kicked off, it was his on fault. I wonder when Kimi fans will finally realize this.

Just.. stop. Who is talking about this here? I mean seriously.. Another example of Alonso fans bringing up Kimi for no reason whatsoever.

#7854 HPT

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:18

It always amuses me to see people claim they can tell what level of passion a driver has. Newsflash - you cant. And especially when we are talking about a character like Kimi. He has always marched to the beat of his own drum and his finnish and secluded personality makes naive people think they can tell exactly what his passion, emotions and dedication is. Again, you cant. Even with Alonso who plays the media and some of his fans like a fiddle, you cant exactly know what is going on in there. He is just very good at saying all the right things that make his followers feel all gooey inside. That was never Kimis strength. If that indeed is a strength.

Your statement of "Kimi has no respect for anyone" just shows you do not have a clue of what you are talking about.
Alonso had the audacity to claim that he was "happy to help the FIA clear up the spygate scandal". That shows a total lack of respect if you ask me. To everyone that was hit hard by it. Not only was he heavily involved. He was also summoned to explain himself. But he is trying to make it sound like he was some kind of heroic whistleblower that cleared things up. When in fact he was one of the perpetrators. I gotta hand it to him. Its a clever choice of words and he may fool a lot of people with it. But not me.


Kimi chose rally over F1 even though he had an offer from McLaren. Just to use an extreme example, Senna offered to drive for Williams for free. One must be blind to not see who is and who isn't passionate about F1.

The examples I've given showed Kimi has no respect for anyone (anyone in this context is used to drive home my point for I'm sure he respects some people, such as his parents and friends). You don't think shoving a marshal, pushing a photographer and the 'I was taking a sh!t' remark were disrespectful? I'm not sure what standards you have but perhaps you are the clueless one. I made it very clear that I think Alonso has his flaws and issues. I don't deny the fact that he could act like a petulant little child when things don't go his way and that sometimes translates to being disrespectful as well. But that has nothing to do with the point I was making about how you could describe him as rude (among other things) while not Kimi even though he has shown plenty of times to be capable of being such.

You hate Alonso, I get it. Just don't label him as something which other drivers are also guilty of and using it as a justification to dislike Alonso but not others who have displayed the same attributes. Just say you dislike/hate him no matter what and be done with it.

#7855 Smile17

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:33

Some are racers and some are players by nature. Fernando is the latter.


oh how I love this! He achieved quite a lot for just a 'player', he? Somehow I'd like this to be true....



#7856 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:33

I cant help it if you cannot understand simple logic. If a person makes a mistake once or even twice, fine. It happens. That was my point with Vettel. I cant recall him making rude gestures other than in Turkey. But when it continually happens with the Spaniard again and again, its a different matter. And it gets noticed.


So in short, you're Kimi fan who expresses his concern over rude behaviour...

[** small interlude to let that part sink in **]

...from a spanish driver (with a german driver it appears a little different)....

[** 2nd interlude **]

...by calling that rude spaniard a dick and a cock.

Okay... :D

#7857 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:04

So in short, you're Kimi fan who expresses his concern over rude behaviour...

[** small interlude to let that part sink in **]

...from a spanish driver (with a german driver it appears a little different)....

[** 2nd interlude **]

...by calling that rude spaniard a dick and a cock.

Okay... :D

What is this obsession with Kimi? You guys bring him up endlessly. :confused:
But the fact remains that the spaniard has been involved in the the 2 biggest scandals in F1 in this decade. 2 and a half if you count the teamorder ordeal in Germany. Add to that his countless gestures and comments over being "unfairly" treated.

He may be a great driver but his general demeanor (like throwing his toys out of the pram when at McLaren) and shady nature does him no favors.

#7858 prty

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:08

What is this obsession with Kimi? You guys bring him up endlessly. :confused:
But the fact remains that the spaniard has been involved in the the 2 biggest scandals in F1 in this decade. 2 and a half if you count the teamorder ordeal in Germany.


Yet he hasn't been proven guilty in any. Keep repeating it, but it won't change things.

#7859 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:15

What is this obsession with Kimi?


Dunno, you tell me. From this post I gather you got some unique insights over us mere mortals.

You guys bring him up endlessly. :confused:


It's just a free service. We recognize when someone has a crush on him. :D

But the fact remains that the spaniard has been involved in the the 2 biggest scandals in F1 in this decade. 2 and a half if you count the teamorder ordeal in Germany. Add to that his countless gestures and comments over being "unfairly" treated.

He may be a great driver but his general demeanor (like throwing his toys out of the pram when at McLaren) and shady nature does him no favors.


Well, throwing toys out of the pram is still better than throwing hugely expensive toys into the woods again and again.  ;)



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#7860 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:26

Yet he hasn't been proven guilty in any. Keep repeating it, but it won't change things.

He was guilty in 2007. As guilty as can be. Only reason he saved his skin was by submitting all material, emails, texts and so on. And the context of this correspondance shows that he wanted to test the stuff that was in Ferrari IP. He had a hefty dialogue with an engineer about the brake balance and the wheel base of "the red car" as he put it.
That is nothing but disgraceful. And since you guys keep bringing up Kimi, its in a completely other league than showing a photographer for standing on your gear with muddy shoes. If you can see the vast difference then its a start.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 29 April 2011 - 09:26.


#7861 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:33

Dunno, you tell me. From this post I gather you got some unique insights over us mere mortals.

Im not the one that keeps bringing him up in an Alonso thread.

It's just a free service. We recognize when someone has a crush on him. :D

I dont have any more of a crush on Kimi than you have a hard-on for Alonso. Oh wait. Maybe I do then  ;)

Well, throwing toys out of the pram is still better than throwing hugely expensive toys into the woods again and again. ;)

A rally car is costing peanuts compared to an F1 car. The way Alonso wrecked the Ferrari in Monaco turned out to be a 100 times more expensive than a couple of rally cars :)

#7862 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:33

He was guilty in 2007. As guilty as can be. Only reason he saved his skin was by submitting all material, emails, texts and so on. And the context of this correspondance shows that he wanted to test the stuff that was in Ferrari IP. He had a hefty dialogue with an engineer about the brake balance and the wheel base of "the red car" as he put it.
That is nothing but disgraceful. And since you guys keep bringing up Kimi, its in a completely other league than showing a photographer for standing on your gear with muddy shoes. If you can see the vast difference then its a start.


Indeed a vast difference. Who can forget Kimi giving back his winning trophy from Australia 2007 once he recognized his car had been equipped with an illegal floor. :drunk:

#7863 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:36

Indeed a vast difference. Who can forget Kimi giving back his winning trophy from Australia 2007 once he recognized his car had been equipped with an illegal floor. :drunk:

I remember that as well as Alonso giving back his championship title when he realized that his car was equipped with an illegal mass-damper. See, two can play at that game. :rolleyes:

#7864 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:38

I remember that as well as Alonso giving back his championship title when he realized that his car was equipped with an illegal mass-damper. See, two can play at that game. :rolleyes:


Thanks mate, that was exactly my point. There is no difference, as desperately as you try to create one.

#7865 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:46

Thanks mate, that was exactly my point. There is no difference, as desperately as you try to create one.

Eh what? :confused: Now you are mixing things again. Yes, no differance in that instance. But there is a vast difference between trying to exploit Ferrari IP and getting caught and then pushing someone off your gear. But Im flogging a dead horse with you it seems.

#7866 lemec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:46

I think, technically, Alonso did indeed "use" the stolen data since he was the actual driver of the vehicle that was prepared using "stolen" data.


You mean; "I think, technically, Alonso anf Lewis did indeed "use" the stolen data since they were the actual drivers of the vehicles that were prepared using "stolen" data." ;)

#7867 ZZei

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:46

Alonso has had a part in 2 major F1 scandals. To think he wasnt aware of whats happening in neither of the occasions is quite naive in my opinion, but hen again everyone can form their own opinions.

#7868 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:49

Alonso has had a part in 2 major F1 scandals. To think he wasnt aware of whats happening in neither of the occasions is quite naive in my opinion, but hen again everyone can form their own opinions.

When it comes to the spy scandal its not only naive, but ignorant. It is well documented that he was not only aware but took part in trying to exploit the data. The transcripts show this. Add this to trying to blackmail his boss and you got one class act.

#7869 Hairpin

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:57

Indeed a vast difference. Who can forget Kimi giving back his winning trophy from Australia 2007 once he recognized his car had been equipped with an illegal floor. :drunk:

Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, as have Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.

If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he (literally) ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.

Edited by Hairpin, 29 April 2011 - 10:01.


#7870 bonjon1979a

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:01

Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.
If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.


Genius post.

#7871 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:09

When it comes to the spy scandal its not only naive, but ignorant. It is well documented that he was not only aware but took part in trying to exploit the data. The transcripts show this. Add this to trying to blackmail his boss and you got one class act.

Wooow, what a big offense to trying to exploit the data that McLaren stoled. I imagine all the other drivers would have did this except for Kimi to busy having a vodka or an icecream.
And Ron Dennis what a bastard to allow this.
And Ferrari are so stupid to hire him after all of this. They wanted so much to get rid of Kimi than they were capable of hiring a villain like Alonso. Unbelievable

Edited by aragon, 29 April 2011 - 10:15.


#7872 revlec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:12

When it comes to the spy scandal its not only naive, but ignorant. It is well documented that he was not only aware but took part in trying to exploit the data. The transcripts show this. Add this to trying to blackmail his boss and you got one class act.


:up:

The transcripts are crystal clear, and honestly i can not help but think that some here can not read, or may be they "fake" they can not and deliberately ignore them...
They keep saying he didn't know anything, hence nobody gave him any punishment after the scandal.. they all have to remember it only happened because he obtained immunity from the FIA...

p.s: Do you know how the Drug world works?? when you got caugh, they tell you "give us 4 big guy's names and you will be ok"..
p.s2: i'm not telling ALO is the only "vilain" in this affair, but i suspect he has one the most naive fanbase..

Edited by revlec, 29 April 2011 - 10:13.


#7873 revlec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:14

Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, as have Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.

If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he (literally) ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.


Amen.. :up:

#7874 Kohque

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:14

Only reason he saved his skin was by submitting all material, emails, texts and so on.


Yeah, he went running to the FIA to give them the material. Too hot to handle :lol: .

Then, the Singapore Grand Prix. :smoking: He entered early, blah, blah, blah... It doesn't matter that Piquet Jr. never mentioned Alonso. If he had been present in these briefings, it could have been known during the testimonies. But let's assume that Alonso knew about it and they were briefed in different moments and rooms and whatnot. What exactly could have Alonso done differently? Oh yeah...He pit early, very convenience, never seem before... Well, in case you didn't notice, your reasoning is backwards:

According to your way to seeing the world, Alonso must have pit early because he knew Piquet had to crash in lap number X. Don't you think it would be more logical: "Alonso has already pitted, time to crash the freaking car."? It seems a easier strategy to follow ;)

And then, the team orders last year. Let's be honest, the only reason it became a big issue is precisely because he is the villain of choice. Something that your eyeballs refuse to believe :eek: . Want your eyeballs to glitch? Look no further than 2008 (Massa fighting for the championship):




#7875 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:14

Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, as have Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.

If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he (literally) ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.


To be honest nobody tried to portrait Alonso as a saint. But to say it is a villain, let's be serious...

#7876 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:21

Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, as have Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.

If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he (literally) ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.


Well, good stuff.

Mandatory reading for those followers on each side who can see no wrong in their hero.

The only thing is, such posters are in the vast minority. Sure, Alonso's got a few of those like other drivers too. But mainly they are used as a scapegoat to justify mindless rants against ones specific hate subject. The majority of posters can see the dark sides of their chosen driver pretty well, they just don't like to see them blown out of all proportion.

#7877 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:22

Well said Hairpin. :up:

#7878 revlec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:28

Yeah, he went running to the FIA to give them the material. Too hot to handle :lol: .

Then, the Singapore Grand Prix. :smoking: He entered early, blah, blah, blah... It doesn't matter that Piquet Jr. never mentioned Alonso. If he had been present in these briefings, it could have been known during the testimonies. But let's assume that Alonso knew about it and they were briefed in different moments and rooms and whatnot. What exactly could have Alonso done differently? Oh yeah...He pit early, very convenience, never seem before... Well, in case you didn't notice, your reasoning is backwards:

According to your way to seeing the world, Alonso must have pit early because he knew Piquet had to crash in lap number X. Don't you think it would be more logical: "Alonso has already pitted, time to crash the freaking car."? It seems a easier strategy to follow ;)

And then, the team orders last year. Let's be honest, the only reason it became a big issue is precisely because he is the villain of choice. Something that your eyeballs refuse to believe :eek: . Want your eyeballs to glitch? Look no further than 2008 (Massa fighting for the championship):


1) Did you know ALO was 15th on the starting grid??? did you watch the race?? i did and i didn't need the evidence that it was planned to know something was very fishy there.. immediately after the race i was thinking about it.. Poor Nico..


2) For the video about KIMI and MASSA in China 2008 it's just ridiculous and confirm my point...
after china 2008, there was Brazil 2008(the last race of the season)
After Germany 2010 there was Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Brazil, Abu Dhabi(the lasrt race of the season).. if you don't see the BIG difference here, i don't know what to say.. RAI was out of the Championship at that point(China 2008)?? Answer is YES!!!
MAS was out of the Championship at that point?(Germany 2010)?? Answer is NO...


p.s: Before the ban of the refueling, it happened that drivers of the same team may had different strategies and they allowed their team mate to past them... but since now they ALL have the same FUEL onboard, GERMANY 2010 was just a SHAME with 8 races to go... it's my opinion of course..

Edited by revlec, 29 April 2011 - 10:31.


#7879 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:30

1) Did you know ALO was 15th on the starting grid??? did you watch the race?? i did and i didn't need the evidence that it was planned to know something was very fishy there.. immediately after the race i was thinking about it.. Poor Nico..


2) For the video about KIMI and MASSA in China 2008 it's just ridiculous and confirm my point...
after china 2008, there was Brazil 2008(the last race of the season)
After Germany 2010 there was Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore, Japan, Kore, Brazil, Abu Dhabi(the lasrt race of the season).. if you don't see the BIG difference here, i don't know what to say.. RAI was out of the Championship at that point(China 2008)?? Answer is YES!!!
MAS was out of the Championship at that point?(Germany 2010)?? Answer is NO...


p.s: Before the ban of the refueling, it happened that drivers of the same team may had different strategies and they allowed their team mate to past them... but since now they ALL have the same FUEL onboard, GERMANY 2010 was just a SHAME.. it's my opinion of course..

Off topic: I wonder what is your opinion about Germany 2008(same fuel, last stint), France 2008.

Edited by aragon, 29 April 2011 - 10:30.


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#7880 revlec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:33

Off topic: I wonder what is your opinion about Germany 2008(same fuel, last stint), France 2008.


Please discuss my post and don't bring random stuff..

Edited by revlec, 29 April 2011 - 10:34.


#7881 Hairpin

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:36

Well, good stuff.

Mandatory reading for those followers on each side who can see no wrong in their hero.

The only thing is, such posters are in the vast minority. Sure, Alonso's got a few of those like other drivers too. But mainly they are used as a scapegoat to justify mindless rants against ones specific hate subject. The majority of posters can see the dark sides of their chosen driver pretty well, they just don't like to see them blown out of all proportion.

There is more. If I do love my girl, with all her flaws, and someone comes up and say "she's a bitch because she bla bla", then i'd go mental on him. That is the problem here, we say things we would never say to a real person a face to face meeting. We would respect that persons feelings although we might not feel the same.

In reality, we all know you can not judge a persons character without knowing him or her pretty well. If I like Kimi and hate Alonso now, maybe it would be completely reversed if the three of us had a pizza together. Maybe it would change again after three years stranded in a space station. Judging from media is not very precise. Flaws and qualities are magnified, smallified or simply hidden. It is a 2 dimensional image and we can not sense if the object is really huge or just very close to our eyes.


#7882 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:40

MAS was out of the Championship at that point?(Germany 2010)?? Answer is NO...


Only mathematically the answer is NO. Practically, everyone could see that that year the contemporary Massa&car&tyre package was never going to be good enough to fight for the title until the end. Certainly the team with all their data could judge that.

There only chance was Alonso and they grabbed it. The clumsiness of their execution was shameful, but for maximizing the teams chances the decision was 100 percent correct.

#7883 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:40

Please discuss my post and don't bring random stuff..

Exactly your post I was discussing. But Germany 2008 being a CC of Germany 2010 for sure you have the same opinion, so it's no need to answer me.

#7884 Kohque

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:41

1) Did you know ALO was 15th on the starting grid??? did you watch the race?? i did and i didn't need the evidence that it was planned to know something was very fishy there.. immediately after the race i was thinking about it.. Poor Nico..


2) For the video about KIMI and MASSA in China 2008 it's just ridiculous and confirm my point...
after china 2008, there was Brazil 2008(the last race of the season)
After Germany 2010 there was Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore, Japan, Kore, Brazil, Abu Dhabi(the lasrt race of the season).. if you don't see the BIG difference here, i don't know what to say.. RAI was out of the Championship at that point(China 2008)?? Answer is YES!!!
MAS was out of the Championship at that point?(Germany 2010)?? Answer is NO...


p.s: Before the ban of the refueling, it happened that drivers of the same team may had different strategies and they allowed their team mate to past them... but since now they ALL have the same FUEL onboard, GERMANY 2010 was just a SHAME with 8 races to go... it's my opinion of course..


1) Well, it wasn't fishy because he started 15th. That's an unlikely win, but nothing to go wow "that s*** is impossible". But how do you extrapolate from there to conclude that he was involved in the crashgate?

2) What it confirms is that common sense prevails in Ferrari. In both cases, the other driver had virtually or no possibilities to win. In 2008, Massa did better than Kimi, but did not floored him like Alonso did with Massa last year, which, considering they have quite a disadvantage with the Red Bulls, was the right call at the right time (don't remember, but the point difference was considerable and Massa had huge problems last year and was driving like her mother).

No shame at all. It is well known Alonso lost in the last race.

#7885 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:42

There is more. If I do love my girl, with all her flaws, and someone comes up and say "she's a bitch because she bla bla", then i'd go mental on him. That is the problem here, we say things we would never say to a real person a face to face meeting. We would respect that persons feelings although we might not feel the same.

In reality, we all know you can not judge a persons character without knowing him or her pretty well. If I like Kimi and hate Alonso now, maybe it would be completely reversed if the three of us had a pizza together. Maybe it would change again after three years stranded in a space station. Judging from media is not very precise. Flaws and qualities are magnified, smallified or simply hidden. It is a 2 dimensional image and we can not sense if the object is really huge or just very close to our eyes.

Wisely putted mate. :up:

#7886 revlec

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 11:24

Only mathematically the answer is NO. Practically, everyone could see that that year the contemporary Massa&car&tyre package was never going to be good enough to fight for the title until the end. Certainly the team with all their data could judge that.

There only chance was Alonso and they grabbed it. The clumsiness of their execution was shameful, but for maximizing the teams chances the decision was 100 percent correct.


How could you know that after Germany 2010 MAS would have been a poor choice??
i did some calculations and i found that if Germany 2010 ended "normally" with MAS in front, it would have been ALO 116(46,4), MAS 92(36,8)..
so the difference between them using the old system point would have been circa +9,6 (old)points for ALO with 8 races to go...
_

I even went further and considered the 2007 season.. with 8 races to go, guess what? HAM 60(150) , ALO 50(125) ... so HAM was +10 (old)points ahead of ALO.. the same advantage ALO had on MAS in 2010 at that point of the season... So if i understood correctly your reasoning, Should McLaren have given preferential treatment to HAM after the 2007 Great Britain Grand Prix?? i guess inside you it's a big NO!! do you see the double standard?? :)


p.s: Needless to say, i'm against team orders and first and second driver politics..  ;)
p.s2: i have used 2,5 as coefficient to convert old and new points..

Edited by revlec, 29 April 2011 - 11:33.


#7887 Goron3

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 11:55

How could you know that after Germany 2010 MAS would have been a poor choice??
i did some calculations and i found that if Germany 2010 ended "normally" with MAS in front, it would have been ALO 116(46,4), MAS 92(36,8)..
so the difference between them using the old system point would have been circa +9,6 (old)points for ALO with 8 races to go...
_

I even went further and considered the 2007 season.. with 8 races to go, guess what? HAM 60(150) , ALO 50(125) ... so HAM was +10 (old)points ahead of ALO.. the same advantage ALO had on MAS in 2010 at that point of the season... So if i understood correctly your reasoning, Should McLaren have given preferential treatment to HAM after the 2007 Great Britain Grand Prix?? i guess inside you it's a big NO!! do you see the double standard?? :)


p.s: Needless to say, i'm against team orders and first and second driver politics.. ;)
p.s2: i have used 2,5 as coefficient to convert old and new points..


Remember though, last year Alonso was miles behind the title leader in what was the THIRD best car on the grid. On top of this, Massa admitted that he was several tenths slower on the harder compound which he was greatly struggling with.

There was no need for Mclaren to give Hamilton preferential treatment after the 2007 British GP, he was firmly in the championship hunt (wasn't he leading/ close to leading)? Fernando was so far off behind the dominant RB that winning in Monza, Singapore and Korea only just got him level on points. The fact that he would've won the title bar a bad strategy call shows it was the right decision in the end.


#7888 fabr68

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 11:58

Not incorrect, but Fernando Alonso was soliciting De La Rosa and Coughlan to use it(he actually wanted to test it personally) and didn't even for a second suggest them it was illegal and they had to stop..
Here below is the FIA transcript of the World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris, the day 13 september of 2007
use the words "alonso", "hamilton" , "McLaren" with the search function...

http://press.fiacomm...13-09-2007a.pdf



p.s: Alonso is clever, he is the final user and he outsmarts often others to benefit from things... do you truly believe he was not aware that Piquet had to crash in Singapore 2008? for what reason he had to pit soooo early in the race?? we are not all dumb..


As far as available evidence Alonso is as aware of what happened in Singapore 2008 as Hamilton was aware of the Ferrari stolen data in his 2007 Mclaren.

I see a lot of people outraged at Alonso for keeping his Singapore win, but no one even mentions that Hamilton won all those races in 2007 with a cheating car. So, Alonso should return his throphy the minute Hamilton return all his from 2007.

I don't think anyone here is saying Alonso is a saint, not even the most ardent of fans. However, this thread is flooded with Alonso moaners who do nothing but pout and cry about every single rumor (true or not, proven or unproven) about him.

Edited by fabr68, 29 April 2011 - 11:59.


#7889 aragon

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:02

How could you know that after Germany 2010 MAS would have been a poor choice??
i did some calculations and i found that if Germany 2010 ended "normally" with MAS in front, it would have been ALO 116(46,4), MAS 92(36,8)..[/b]
so the difference between them using the old system point would have been circa +9,6 (old)points for ALO with 8 races to go...
_

I even went further and considered the 2007 season.. with 8 races to go, guess what? HAM 60(150) , ALO 50(125) ... so HAM was +10 (old)points ahead of ALO.. the same advantage ALO had on MAS in 2010 at that point of the season... So if i understood correctly your reasoning, Should McLaren have given preferential treatment to HAM after the 2007 Great Britain Grand Prix??[b] i guess inside you it's a big NO!!
do you see the double standard?? :)


p.s: Needless to say, i'm against team orders and first and second driver politics..;)
p.s2: i have used 2,5 as coefficient to convert old and new points..

He was a poor choice before, enough evidence don't u think? And get used to this team orders. It's legal right now.

Edited by aragon, 29 April 2011 - 12:04.


#7890 Hairpin

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:07

I see a lot of people outraged at Alonso for keeping his Singapore win, but no one even mentions that Hamilton won all those races in 2007 with a cheating car. So, Alonso should return his throphy the minute Hamilton return all his from 2007.

Alonso would have to return all his McLaren wins as well then... I don't know who'd come out on top :)

#7891 Buttoneer

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:17

There are threads for spygate, for Alonso replacing Kimi, for Singapore '08. Please will posters avoid trolling, baiting, or hijacking the thread.

#7892 Kohque

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:20

How could you know that after Germany 2010 MAS would have been a poor choice??
i did some calculations and i found that if Germany 2010 ended "normally" with MAS in front, it would have been ALO 116(46,4), MAS 92(36,8)..
so the difference between them using the old system point would have been circa +9,6 (old)points for ALO with 8 races to go...
_

I even went further and considered the 2007 season.. with 8 races to go, guess what? HAM 60(150) , ALO 50(125) ... so HAM was +10 (old)points ahead of ALO.. the same advantage ALO had on MAS in 2010 at that point of the season... So if i understood correctly your reasoning, Should McLaren have given preferential treatment to HAM after the 2007 Great Britain Grand Prix?? i guess inside you it's a big NO!! do you see the double standard?? :)


p.s: Needless to say, i'm against team orders and first and second driver politics.. ;)
p.s2: i have used 2,5 as coefficient to convert old and new points..


Quite a good point actually. So does this shows double standards then? I've also run the numbers from F1 2007 and 2010 using 2.5 coefficient. I've calculated the difference Alonso and Massa had with the leading driver when they arrive to Germany, and then I've compared it with Hamilton and Alonso when they arrived at Silverstone in 2007 (should be the race number equivalent, but let me know if I am wrong):

Germany (2010):
Alonso 18.8 (47) points behind
Massa 31.2 (78) points behind

Silverstone (2007)
Hamilton 17 points in front of Massa (leading the championship)
Alonso 3 points in front of Massa (second and third respectively)

Quite a different situation from a team's point of view. So again, it seems common sense was driving both decisions, not double standards. In 2007, Hamilton and Alonso were fighting with the best car for the championship. In 2010, Alonso and Massa were more like scavenging for the bones left by Red Bull and McLaren and quite behind in the Driver's Championship. As Alonso said recently: "It's very easy to choose the strategy when you have the fastest car and it's very hard when you are slow."

I am also against team orders, but the only real solution is to have just one driver per team, so I rather have team orders.



#7893 Ramses1348

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:52

I am not an alonso fan (quite the contrary in fact), but I am amazed that people are still criticizing the use of the team orders in Germany 2010. From a sporting point of view it was a shame (but nothing to the extent of austria 2002), but from Ferrari's point of view it was the best thing to do, as it allowed alonso to have a real shot at the championship. The extremely poor pace Massa had been showing throughout the year until that point was the reason why ferrari had no faith in him challenging for the championship at that point of the year, and so they were right to put everything behind alonso. Comparison with 2007 is completely irrelevant.

#7894 undersquare

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 12:56

As far as available evidence Alonso is as aware of what happened in Singapore 2008 as Hamilton was aware of the Ferrari stolen data in his 2007 Mclaren.

I see a lot of people outraged at Alonso for keeping his Singapore win, but no one even mentions that Hamilton won all those races in 2007 with a cheating car. So, Alonso should return his throphy the minute Hamilton return all his from 2007.

I don't think anyone here is saying Alonso is a saint, not even the most ardent of fans. However, this thread is flooded with Alonso moaners who do nothing but pout and cry about every single rumor (true or not, proven or unproven) about him.


This is such an embarrassingly stupid argument, the 07 car was obviously designed way before Stepney started leaking in March/April. Even if you think making up crap about Hamilton ought to help Alonso's reputation somehow.

It's obvious to any F1 fan that all the top drivers have to be a bit different from 'ordinary' people, and they each have their different ways, as we heard for example with Sebi accusing Red Bull of sabotaging his car last year :lol: .

Personally anyway I've warmed to Fernando again after discovering that he probably did not reveal his emails vindictively to Bernie, but to Flav and before Hungary. I like what he has to say in interviews and he is very fair on track. After that, having a go at paps and the other extreme things just go with the WDC territory, as far as I'm concerned. It's not reasonable for us to expect them to be extraordinary in just the one particular way we want.

For me, these days,, he's a very classy driver and a worthy opponent for Sebi and TDG :up: .

#7895 EdwardCullen

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 13:06

I am not an alonso fan (quite the contrary in fact), but I am amazed that people are still criticizing the use of the team orders in Germany 2010. From a sporting point of view it was a shame (but nothing to the extent of austria 2002), but from Ferrari's point of view it was the best thing to do, as it allowed alonso to have a real shot at the championship. The extremely poor pace Massa had been showing throughout the year until that point was the reason why ferrari had no faith in him challenging for the championship at that point of the year, and so they were right to put everything behind alonso. Comparison with 2007 is completely irrelevant.

What back then it was LEGAL to do that
but in 2010 it was ILLEGAL so how can it be worse than that?

#7896 e34

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 13:22

This is such an embarrassingly stupid argument, the 07 car was obviously designed way before Stepney started leaking in March/April. Even if you think making up crap about Hamilton ought to help Alonso's reputation somehow.

It's obvious to any F1 fan that all the top drivers have to be a bit different from 'ordinary' people, and they each have their different ways, as we heard for example with Sebi accusing Red Bull of sabotaging his car last year :lol: .

Personally anyway I've warmed to Fernando again after discovering that he probably did not reveal his emails vindictively to Bernie, but to Flav and before Hungary. I like what he has to say in interviews and he is very fair on track. After that, having a go at paps and the other extreme things just go with the WDC territory, as far as I'm concerned. It's not reasonable for us to expect them to be extraordinary in just the one particular way we want.

For me, these days,, he's a very classy driver and a worthy opponent for Sebi and TDG :up: .


And the 08 car way after spygate broke open, and way after Alonso and de la Rosa exchanged emails... and on an inspection during winter, FIA found Ferrari IP on it.

That should suffice to end all the speculation about Alonso being the only one (together with de la Rosa and Coughlan) who knew or used Ferrari info.

#7897 Ramses1348

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 13:37

What back then it was LEGAL to do that
but in 2010 it was ILLEGAL so how can it be worse than that?


I was talking about common sense. It made much more sense to swap Massa and Alonso in Germany 2010 than it made with Barrichello and Schumi (who had the championship pretty much in the bag already) in Austria 2002. As for the "illegality" of it, with precedents such as China 2008 it becomes quite hard to argue it ...

#7898 EdwardCullen

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 14:00

I was talking about common sense. It made much more sense to swap Massa and Alonso in Germany 2010 than it made with Barrichello and Schumi (who had the championship pretty much in the bag already) in Austria 2002. As for the "illegality" of it, with precedents such as China 2008 it becomes quite hard to argue it ...

I agree Austria 2002 was unnecessary
But Massa was just 10 points behind Alonso at Germany...if he had won it he would have even closer....and who knows what would have happened if he had won, he would been motivated and would have been faster next races

anyways "illegality" is not determined by precedents, there was clear rule for it, so back in 2002 it was legal and 2010 it was clear break of the rule.

Edited by EdwardCullen, 29 April 2011 - 14:02.


#7899 undersquare

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 14:08

And the 08 car way after spygate broke open, and way after Alonso and de la Rosa exchanged emails... and on an inspection during winter, FIA found Ferrari IP on it.

That should suffice to end all the speculation about Alonso being the only one (together with de la Rosa and Coughlan) who knew or used Ferrari info.


There was no Ferrari IP found on the 08 car Lewis won in. From your own link: "McLaren vowed not to use these items in 2008".

And even if there had been, it would have been Fernando who helped put it there, not Lewis. So it would be a pretty stupid argument however you slice it.

Fernando claimed Singapore as a win, his fans have to work with that, not try and get out of it with fabricated hits against some other driver.

AFAIC once it came out and he was asked, there was no easy answer without embellishing the story and feeding the media with it, so I don't have a problem with it.

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#7900 Hairpin

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 14:20

I agree Austria 2002 was unnecessary
But Massa was just 10 points behind Alonso at Germany...if he had won it he would have even closer....and who knows what would have happened if he had won, he would been motivated and would have been faster next races

anyways "illegality" is not determined by precedents, there was clear rule for it, so back in 2002 it was legal and 2010 it was clear break of the rule.

One thing about the Hockenheim debacle that I have been thinking about is: How did it affect the other people within Ferrari? Given Massas accident and long history with the team, I suppose he had quite many friends there. Alonso was new, he was also a person who had been quite agitated against Ferrari before so I think his status was more "we are lucky to have him, but our judgement is pending". I do not think that they held Alonso responsible for what happened because, let's face it, he did not made the call, so I think that anger or disappointment was directed towards Dominicali instead. Maybe some of them did not feel proud to be a part of the team anymore. That is always the danger when the decisions and the intentions from the management is not transparent and turns out to be contradictory.