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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#751 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:13

You mean 'was' don't you?

still is, just look where he is and where his teammate is in this years Ferrari!

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#752 FigJam

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:15

I still say Fernando Alonso is the only one who could stop Lewis Hamilton winning this years title. If Ferrari get their act together completely and Red Bull keep shooting themselves in the foot, Alonso is the one Lewis has to worry about.

#753 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:16

still is, just look where he is and where his teammate is in this years Ferrari!

It's not about my opinion, your opinion, or even that of otoelopiloto.

#754 velgajski1

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:17

:lol:

It explains why teams like Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, Honda/Brawn, BMW and Toyota wanted to sign him after 2007...;) F1 Teams know more than you do! :wave:

IMHO,

2005 - very good (he was fast when needed)
2006 - excellent (his best season)
2007 - good (he lost the WDC by 2 points)
2008 - very good (he put the car in positions it had no right in being. His second half of the season was really impressive with that car. Don't forget, he was was awarded 'Best driver of 2008')
2009 - good (he outqualified and outraced better cars a lot of times)
2010 - very good (in spite of his mistakes, he has never given up and has always come back stronger. He has been incredibly fast and impressive and beating his highly-rated teammate. He had some great drives like Malaysia or Australia, but the jury is still out :))


Agree about 2005-2006, disagree about rest. I'd say
2007 - very good (he had tough time in McLaren and yet managed to lost WDC by only 2 points)
2008 - good (Renault wasn't that bad, he made some mistakes in early part of 2008, overall not his best season)
2009 - very good
2010 - good (much faster than Massa but simply too many mistakes to be given anything higher - he should have lead in WDC by now).


#755 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:24

he should have lead in WDC by now

even in that Ferrari?

#756 AlanWake

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:27

even in that Ferrari?


Yes :)


#757 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:30

Yes :)

i am expecting after valencia or silverstone we will see that.

but till now, the car is not good enough :)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 15:32.


#758 gaston_foix

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:31

even in that Ferrari?

Yes :)

#759 velgajski1

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:32

Like I said, I don't believe Alonso suddenly got 0.5s faster than anyone else on grid (this is what would follow - Massa is performing at his best logic). Massa is underperforming in current car due to tyre problem, I don't believe Ferrari is so bad.

After pre-season testing informations from Ferrari pointed at Red Bull being fastest, followed by Ferrari and with McLaren and Mercedes being on the same level few tenths behind. I find it highly unlikely that Ferrari became so much slower and Alonso suddenly got so much faster (he didn't have that 'advantage' in Bahrain).

Probably some updates simply didn't work for Massa, and now he can't get his tyres to work. In general, you have to ask yourself following question - where would Alonso be with victory in Canada and Monaco - both which Alonso himself said were feasible. If I look at points table correctly - he would be leading WDC by quite a few points. If Alonso himself said that this was feasible than I don't really know why do some people on this BB claim it isn't?

Edited by velgajski1, 21 June 2010 - 15:36.


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#760 otoelpiloto

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:33

i am expecting after valencia or silverstone we will see that.

but right now, the car is not good enough :)


without his mistakes fernando would be leading now by 14, 15 points, taking into account he would have won 25 point victory in Monaco

#761 AlanWake

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:34

i am expecting after valencia or silverstone we will see that.

but right now, the car is not good enough :)


The F10 was good enough in all tracks, except Turkey.

#762 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:34

After pre-season testing informations from Ferrari pointed at Red Bull being fastest, followed by Ferrari and with McLaren and Mercedes being on the same level few tenths behind.

at that moment maybe it was right,

but as mclaren stated they made such a big improvement, that they are now the team to beat!
ferrari, as they stated, just made the fault to concentrate to much on the f-duct, but valencia is coming, and the new f10-b :clap:

#763 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:35

even in that Ferrari?

Alonso has been fast all season, even with that Ferrari that Massa seems to struggle with. All things taken into account, either him or one of the red bull drivers should be leading the championship.

#764 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:36

The F10 was good enough in all tracks, except Turkey.

good enough for what?
for wins: no!
for podiums, in most cases yes (if you take alonso as reference, if we are looking on massa, than ferrari was just in bahrain capable of winning!)

#765 AlanWake

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:40

good enough for what?
for wins: no!
for podiums, in most cases yes (if you take alonso as reference, if we are looking on massa, than ferrari was just in bahrain capable of winning!)


The F10 was a winning car in Bahrain, Monaco and probably Canada.

#766 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:41

without his mistakes fernando would be leading now by 14, 15 points, taking into account he would have won 25 point victory in Monaco

okay and without some failures vettel would lead, and without webber hitting hamilton,hamilton would lead much more comfortable, and without the mistakes in the first two races, webber would lead, and without that mistake in malaysia, button would lead, and without that mistake in monaco button would lead even with a bigger margin, and without that mistake in malaysia, hamilton would lead even more comfortable, and without the tyre problems in all races massa would lead, and without the tactical mistakes in canada webber or vettel would have won, and withour the incident of webber and vettel, one of them would be leading with a big gap etc.

#767 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:43

The F10 was a winning car in Bahrain,

also without vettels problems?


Monaco


at least alonso thought so, but looking at massa, no.
rosberg also thought mercedes was capable of winning!

and probably Canada.

backmarkers, backmarkers :rolleyes:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 15:44.


#768 fed up

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:47

I just watched the BBC Iplayer edit of the Canadian GP. While Alonso had a good race overall he just wasn't aggressive enough when it came to overtaking the cars ahead. Losing the place to Hamilton was amateurish as was his attempts to pass Webber and Trulli. I think he was over cautious and suffered as a result. That aside he had the pace to win the race.

In clear air he is very fast - like Vettel - but he lacks the aggression of Hamilton and Button.

He shouldn't be discounted but I think Hamilton has the measure of him, psychologically and in terms of raw pace.

#769 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:49

In clear air he is very fast - like Vettel - but he lacks the aggression of Hamilton and Button.

alonso lacks aggression? :drunk:
wasnt his aggression, the problem in that race (without taking kova into account, when he was fighting lewis, who was two laps eralier in the box)

He shouldn't be discounted but I think Hamilton has the measure of him, psychologically and in terms of raw pace.

no, lewis has just a perfect working f-duct which makes overtaking easier

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 15:52.


#770 fed up

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:52

alonso lacks aggression? :drunk:
wasnt his aggression, the problem in that race
without taking kova into account, when he was fighting lewis, who was two laps eralier in the box?


Perhaps aggressive is too strong a word - in/decisive, tentative, cautious is more apt.


#771 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:54

Perhaps aggressive is too strong a word - in/decisive, tentative, cautious is more apt.

still not right, if he was more cautious, lewis wouldn't have the chance to overtake him, if he was more cautious or better say, if he was not that naive (chandhok) button wouldnt pass him.
if the stewards have warned kova earlier, alonso would have won that race!

not to forget the overtaking of alonso against lewis "twice" once in the box and another one on track (before lewis moving into pits!)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 15:58.


#772 otoelpiloto

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 15:57

I just watched the BBC Iplayer edit of the Canadian GP. While Alonso had a good race overall he just wasn't aggressive enough when it came to overtaking the cars ahead. Losing the place to Hamilton was amateurish as was his attempts to pass Webber and Trulli. I think he was over cautious and suffered as a result. That aside he had the pace to win the race.

In clear air he is very fast - like Vettel - but he lacks the aggression of Hamilton and Button.

He shouldn't be discounted but I think Hamilton has the measure of him, psychologically and in terms of raw pace.


:rotfl: :rotfl: fernando is as, if not more, aggresive as lewis

button aggresive? joke of the day alongside switzerland football team :up:

#773 rko281

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 16:01

:rotfl: :rotfl: fernando is as, if not more, aggresive as lewis

button aggresive? joke of the day alongside switzerland football team :up:


:down: for the bolded part.
Button may not be aggresive as Lewis is, but you can't say he is not aggresive. He made some great overtakes this season (and I'm not talking about overtaking the backmarkers).

Edited by rko281, 21 June 2010 - 16:04.


#774 fed up

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 16:06

:rotfl: :rotfl: fernando is as, if not more, aggresive as lewis

button aggresive? joke of the day alongside switzerland football team :up:


If you have access to iplayer have a look at the decisive passes by Button and Lewis.

It is elementary for these top drivers when trying to make a pass stick, especially when you have another driver on your tail. In both cases Nando made the mistake of attempting the pass but not pulling it off. You either attack or defend - if you attack and don't get past you leave yourself open to attack by the car behind.

Nando followed Lewis at close quarters for lap after lap including overtaking back markers. When Lewis got by Webber he was decisive enough to make it stick as Nando was close enough to take advantage if he hadn't. Conversely Nando struggled to get by the ailing Webber as he'd done with Buemi, Trulli et al.

#775 otoelpiloto

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 16:25

:down: for the bolded part.
Button may not be aggresive as Lewis is, but you can't say he is not aggresive. He made some great overtakes this season (and I'm not talking about overtaking the backmarkers).


button is a gentleman, a charming clever friendly racing driver, but of the many attributes we could pick for him agressiveness wasn't among them

#776 rko281

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 16:35

button is a gentleman, a charming clever friendly racing driver, but of the many attributes we could pick for him agressiveness wasn't among them



Your initial post didn't sound like you are now implying. It sounded that he is not at all aggressive.
I agree that when thinking of Button, the driver the first thing that comes in mind it's not the attribute aggressive, but that doesn't mean he's not agrressive at all.

Edited by ForeverF1, 21 June 2010 - 16:43.
If you must go off topic, there is no need to advertise it and bring it to our attention. "Off-topic:"


#777 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:07

even in that Ferrari?

Yes.

okay and without some failures vettel would lead, and without webber hitting hamilton,hamilton would lead much more comfortable, and without the mistakes in the first two races, webber would lead, and without that mistake in malaysia, button would lead, and without that mistake in monaco button would lead even with a bigger margin, and without that mistake in malaysia, hamilton would lead even more comfortable, and without the tyre problems in all races massa would lead, and without the tactical mistakes in canada webber or vettel would have won, and withour the incident of webber and vettel, one of them would be leading with a big gap etc.

Car failures and Strategy errors by the team don't really count. I think what we're all looking at here is driver errors (its a driver thread). Take the last race, Alonso should have won, if he did he would be leading the WDC, but instead he want backwards in the race after last pit stop from P1 to P3, gifting Hamilton the WDC lead.

The other drivers haven't thrown away as many points through personal faults of their own.

Anyway the season is long and I'm sure Alonso can stop his errors.

Edited by ZooL, 21 June 2010 - 17:08.


#778 Gareth

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:17

Most of the drivers in the title hunt have made errors this season, so I'm not sure saying that "The other drivers haven't thrown away as many points through personal faults of their own" is correct.

The important thing, though, is that by his own (very high) standards Alonso has made way too many errors. If he'd cut those out this season, and driven in the same (mistake free) manner that characterised his 05 and 06 seasons, he'd be leading the WDC right now.

So I think it's fair to say that even in that Ferrari, Alonso should be leading the WDC. But that only reflects that he's normally that good, rather than that he's been poor. He's driven very well this season: just not as well as he can.

#779 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:18

Yes.


Car failures and Strategy errors by the team don't really count. I think what we're all looking at here is driver errors (its a driver thread). Take the last race, Alonso should have won, if he did he would be leading the WDC, but instead he want backwards in the race after last pit stop from P1 to P3, gifting Hamilton the WDC lead.

your interpretation, if there werent backmarkers alonso would have won (as Alonso, and the whole Ferrari crew stated), so it was not just up to him!

but not only alonso made mistakes (his mistakes were the false start in china loosing one position than the one he started from, and a crash in free practise, which unfortunately affected quali and race!)

webber: mistake in bahrain, australia (turkey i dont count as his mistake!)
vettel: turkey, bad race in china
button: quali malaysia, hitting alonso in australia (still won)
hamilton: some mistakes with any outcome, he just got warned, its not sure whether australia was lewis fault or not (considering his tyres degradation!)






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#780 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:18

no, lewis has just a perfect working f-duct which makes overtaking easier

Hamilton wasn't even in the top 5 speed trap for all sectors. I can't see how far down he was.

Edited by ZooL, 21 June 2010 - 17:19.


#781 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:21

your interpretation, if there werent backmarkers alonso would have won (as Alonso, and the whole Ferrari crew stated), so it was not just up to him!

but not only alonso made mistakes (his mistakes were the false start in china loosing one position than the one he started from, and a crash in free practise, which unfortunately affected quali and race!)

webber: mistake in bahrain, australia (turkey i dont count as his mistake!)
vettel: turkey, bad race in china
button: quali malaysia, hitting alonso in australia (still won)
hamilton: some mistakes with any outcome, he just got warned, its not sure whether australia was lewis fault or not (considering his tyres degradation!)

Negotiating backmarkers has been part of racing since year dot and is a required skill to form the complete driver.

Buemi is not a back marker - Alonso was racing him for position.

#782 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:22

Hamilton wasn't even in the top 5 speed trap for all sectors. I can't see how far down he was.

we were not just talking about canada! we were talking in general

but in canada the f-duct advantage gave the mclarens the oportunity to use more wings, and still be fast, and so had more drag (important for braking and in the corners)!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 17:23.


#783 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:23

Buemi is not a back marker - Alonso was racing him for position.

he was not the main problem, that was kova (when lewis made his stop and alonso was driving like hell!)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 17:25.


#784 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:29

we were not just talking about canada! we were talking in general

but in canada the f-duct advantage gave the mclarens the oportunity to use more wings, and still be fast, and so had more drag (important for braking and in the corners)!

Here is speed trap figures: http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

I dont see the point talking in general because I think its accepted Hamilton has been the best overtaker since he started in 2007.

#785 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:31

I dont see the point talking in general because I think its accepted Hamilton has been the best overtaker since he started in 2007.

your opinion
i think alonso is the better overtaker.
in canada lewis overtook alonso once(after alonso battled buemi)
alonso overtook lewis twice (once after the box) and once before lewis entered box (without lewis battling any backmarker or any other driver).

and the speed trap stats from canada, i know them, and i have them interpreted (two posts above)!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 17:38.


#786 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:35

Yes.


Car failures and Strategy errors by the team don't really count. I think what we're all looking at here is driver errors (its a driver thread). Take the last race, Alonso should have won, if he did he would be leading the WDC, but instead he want backwards in the race after last pit stop from P1 to P3, gifting Hamilton the WDC lead.

The other drivers haven't thrown away as many points through personal faults of their own.

Anyway the season is long and I'm sure Alonso can stop his errors.

In the last race Alonso also lost the lead because the Lotus impeded him (I don't see that as a mistake) when he was on a flyer and Hamilton had just been to the box. Now I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but if it weren't for that incident things might have been different. i.e. His race might have panned out differently. Anyway, like you said, we've just about reached the halfway point of the season. If the updated F10 works, I expect less errors from him based on the improved performance of the car. Lets see what happens the rest of the season.

#787 Gareth

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:40

in canada lewis overtook alonso once(after alonso battled buemi)
alonso overtook lewis twice (once after the box) and once before lewis entered box (without lewis battling any backmarker or any other driver).

I suspect Zool meant "on track" overtaker. Not in the pits.

#788 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:40

okay and without some failures vettel would lead, and without webber hitting hamilton,hamilton would lead much more comfortable, and without the mistakes in the first two races, webber would lead, and without that mistake in malaysia, button would lead, and without that mistake in monaco button would lead even with a bigger margin, and without that mistake in malaysia, hamilton would lead even more comfortable, and without the tyre problems in all races massa would lead, and without the tactical mistakes in canada webber or vettel would have won, and withour the incident of webber and vettel, one of them would be leading with a big gap etc.

:up:

#789 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:43

here something to laugh
canada race
one mistake, it was not buemi, it was kova costing alonso p1
enjoy (watch out for michael)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 17:48.


#790 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:44

I suspect Zool meant "on track" overtaker. Not in the pits.

okay than we have 1:1

#791 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:44

Most of the drivers in the title hunt have made errors this season, so I'm not sure saying that "The other drivers haven't thrown away as many points through personal faults of their own" is correct.

The important thing, though, is that by his own (very high) standards Alonso has made way too many errors. If he'd cut those out this season, and driven in the same (mistake free) manner that characterised his 05 and 06 seasons, he'd be leading the WDC right now.

So I think it's fair to say that even in that Ferrari, Alonso should be leading the WDC. But that only reflects that he's normally that good, rather than that he's been poor. He's driven very well this season: just not as well as he can.

I this is the point I am getting at, my emphasis bolded. In 2005 and 2006 he didn't have to jockey with anyone because both rival teams got really bad starts through bad reliability. He then only needed percentage driving because there were no intermediate teams that would finish in between him and his rival. You think that sets his standard where I beg to differ. The standard is set when he has to race wheel to wheel, which he had to do 2007 till 2010 and none of them were great seasons.

The more this season and others follow the more I hope people will understand my pov. Because he will keep making more mistakes than Hamilton/Kubica, unless he has a dominant car or a very big uncharacteristic lead very early in the season. I'm not saying he's crap just refuting that he's #1.

#792 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:50

Because he will keep making more mistakes than Hamilton/Kubica, unless he has a dominant car or a very big uncharacteristic lead very early in the season.

look at lewis 2008, when his car wasnt dominant he made more mistakes,
look at lewis 2010, when his car wasnt dominant he didnt win and was behind button!

but as i stated above, alonso hasnt made more mistakes than others, he is driving like hell, although ferrari is just the 3rd fastest team overall, he is up their fighting for the championship!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 21 June 2010 - 17:56.


#793 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:52

Hamilton took Alonso before they even reached Buemi?



#794 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:56

Hamilton took Alonso before they even reached Buemi?

this video shows what happend after the battle buemi alonso!

#795 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 17:58

I this is the point I am getting at, my emphasis bolded. In 2005 and 2006 he didn't have to jockey with anyone because both rival teams got really bad starts through bad reliability. He then only needed percentage driving because there were no intermediate teams that would finish in between him and his rival. You think that sets his standard where I beg to differ. The standard is set when he has to race wheel to wheel, which he had to do 2007 till 2010 and none of them were great seasons.

The more this season and others follow the more I hope people will understand my pov. Because he will keep making more mistakes than Hamilton/Kubica, unless he has a dominant car or a very big uncharacteristic lead very early in the season. I'm not saying he's crap just refuting that he's #1.

Care to elaborate on why his 2007 was crap??? I mean both he and Hamilton lost out to Kimi by 1 point. In 2008 Massa lost out to Hamilton by 1 point. I'd love to know how you rate Massa and Hamiltons 2008 then...

Edited by Ferrari2183, 21 June 2010 - 18:07.


#796 prty

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:23

Hamilton took Alonso before they even reached Buemi?


I know I shouldn't bite, but do you even watch the races?

#797 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:23

Care to elaborate on why his 2007 was crap??? I mean both he and Hamilton lost out to Kimi by 1 point. In 2008 Massa lost out to Hamilton by 1 point. I'd love to know how you rate Massa and Hamiltons 2008 then...

I thought he really struggled against a rookie and expected so much more from him. It's like Petrov coming in this year as a rookie and outshining Kubica. Many would say Kubica also poor season too then...

2008 wasn't a great season for either Massa or Hamilton, but it is noted that Hamilton had to fight Ferrari and Max Mosley.

Edited by ZooL, 21 June 2010 - 18:24.


#798 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:25

I thought he really struggled against a rookie and expected so much more from him. It's like Petrov coming in this and outshining Kubica. Many would say Kubica also poor too then...

2008 wasn't a great season for either Massa or Hamilton, but it is noted that Hamilton had to fight Ferrari and Max Mosley.

and alonso had to fight in 2007 hamilton and dennis (and dennis tried to psychologicaly destroy alonso, but couldnt achieve it)
alonso :up:

#799 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:27

I know I shouldn't bite, but do you even watch the races?

Yes but I'm currently travelling Asia so haven't been able to pay as much attention to the Canada race, though I did haphazardly try and watch it in a bar at silly hours.

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#800 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:38

I thought he really struggled against a rookie and expected so much more from him. It's like Petrov coming in this year as a rookie and outshining Kubica. Many would say Kubica also poor season too then...

2008 wasn't a great season for either Massa or Hamilton, but it is noted that Hamilton had to fight Ferrari and Max Mosley.

A really talented rookie who had a great car from the get go. You also seem to forget that Hamilton was groomed for that seat. So I don't see how you can draw comparisons with other rookies out there.