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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#7951 EdwardCullen

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:16

max agreeing that Alonso cheated

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#7952 Birelman

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:19

:confused:

link?

haha, what link do you need for that? Did he not drive the car? = benefited from the Ferrari information, and he didn't cooperate with the FIA, well, I have never heard of him giving out incriminating info to the FIA about spygate, but it's possible he did, so, then, what you want me to say, that Hamilton is also a snitch? I'll say that if you want me to :p

#7953 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:35

haha, what link do you need for that? Did he not drive the car? = benefited from the Ferrari information, and he didn't cooperate with the FIA, well, I have never heard of him giving out incriminating info to the FIA about spygate, but it's possible he did, so, then, what you want me to say, that Hamilton is also a snitch? I'll say that if you want me to :p


The car did not benefit in 07 or 08. Max looked till he was blue in the face and found nothing, three projects into trivialities, projects which were halted. It's far more likely that the stress and siege mentality contributed to the strategy errors in China and Brazil that cost him the 07 title. And that near miss resulted in Donnelly put in for 2008.

Hamilton had no emails. So how could saying so be 'not cooperating'.

Your whole attitude is contrived. Any driver in Alonso's position would have used a source like that, it was the culture of F1.

As for Crashgate, well I too believe he might have known, but at least I don't use the possibility as an accusation, that really is bias.

#7954 Bonaventura

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:38

haha, what link do you need for that? Did he not drive the car? = benefited from the Ferrari information, and he didn't cooperate with the FIA, well, I have never heard of him giving out incriminating info to the FIA about spygate, but it's possible he did, so, then, what you want me to say, that Hamilton is also a snitch? I'll say that if you want me to :p

How should Lewis not have corporated with the FIA
about something he was not involved?
Lewis Hamilton was the only one of the drivers who was personally present at the FIA hearing while Alonso and de la Rosa where excused of being busy and gave only written statements.
Nobody of the attendants asked Lewis any questions nor did they link him to any implications with this Ferrari information -stuff or the e-mails
Not the Ferrari advocates nor Mosley.

The FIA never found anything at McLarens cars wich was built based on the Ferrari informations, so how could Lewis have been involved by driving this car?

#7955 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:39

I doubt that very very much.

First of all, you can't speak for all the drivers before 2007. (Last I checked you're not omniscient)
And second, I don't believe that all the drivers before spring 07 would do the same. I'm sure some of them would have declined to participate in what clearly is cheating.


Pedro de la Rosa, whom I think pretty much everybody likes and respects, was quoted as saying that what they did was completely normal.

It was painted as dastardly after the event. But before the event a willing mole in a rival team was simply an opportunity, the more golden the better.

#7956 Claudius

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:47

Pedro de la Rosa, whom I think pretty much everybody likes and respects, was quoted as saying that what they did was completely normal.

It was painted as dastardly after the event. But before the event a willing mole in a rival team was simply an opportunity, the more golden the better.



de la Rosa had an invested interest to portray the issue as "competely normal" as he was involved in it.
I'm very sceptical about that being the usual modus operandi of every driver.

But I guess we'll never know for sure if every driver would do what Alonso did.


#7957 EdwardCullen

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:49

Pedro de la Rosa, whom I think pretty much everybody likes and respects, was quoted as saying that what they did was completely normal.

It was painted as dastardly after the event. But before the event a willing mole in a rival team was simply an opportunity, the more golden the better.

you are twisting what he said
i remember that quote from Pedro, but he said that people take photos of rival cars and discuss all the things they find out on the car
but he didnt imply that they all take IPs from their rivals and discuss/cheat with it and cause a industrial espionage with it :rolleyes:

You are just desperately trying to save Alonso's ass! its not working mate

And not everybody likes and respects Pedro, he is a cheating scombag too!
Click to Listen what Max has to say

Edited by EdwardCullen, 01 May 2011 - 20:51.


#7958 Birelman

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:51

The car did not benefit in 07 or 08. Max looked till he was blue in the face and found nothing, three projects into trivialities, projects which were halted. It's far more likely that the stress and siege mentality contributed to the strategy errors in China and Brazil that cost him the 07 title. And that near miss resulted in Donnelly put in for 2008.

Hamilton had no emails. So how could saying so be 'not cooperating'.

Your whole attitude is contrived. Any driver in Alonso's position would have used a source like that, it was the culture of F1.

As for Crashgate, well I too believe he might have known, but at least I don't use the possibility as an accusation, that really is bias.

I merely stated my opinion that his previous behavior through his involvement in spygate creates a precedence of character that leaves the door open to speculate openly about his involvement in crashgate, I never accused him.

#7959 robefc

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:52

you are twisting what he said
i remember that quote from Pedro, but he said that people take photos of rival cars and discuss all the things they find out on the car
but he didnt imply that they all take IPs from their rivals and discuss/cheat with it and cause a industrial espionage with it :rolleyes:

You are just desperately trying to save Alonso's ass! its not working mate

And not everybody likes and respects Pedro, he is a cheating scombag too!
Click to Listen what Max has to say


Undie the hamilton fan desperately trying to save alonso's ass?

:rotfl:


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#7960 Birelman

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:54

How should Lewis not have corporated with the FIA
about something he was not involved?
Lewis Hamilton was the only one of the drivers who was personally present at the FIA hearing while Alonso and de la Rosa where excused of being busy and gave only written statements.
Nobody of the attendants asked Lewis any questions nor did they link him to any implications with this Ferrari information -stuff or the e-mails
Not the Ferrari advocates nor Mosley.

The FIA never found anything at McLarens cars wich was built based on the Ferrari informations, so how could Lewis have been involved by driving this car?


Well then, no harm no foul, why not just give McLaren back their 100 million and we can all have one heck of a party with that left over cash!!!!

#7961 robefc

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:54

I merely stated my opinion that his previous behavior through his involvement in spygate creates a precedence of character that leaves the door open to speculate openly about his involvement in crashgate, I never accused him.


What? People still think Alonso wasn't guilty in 07 when McLaren was excluded for cheating? and Singapore? geez, some people must be really blind. In 07 he got immunity from being a cheat by being a snitch! as happens to some snitches when they make a deal!! Which makes him, not only a cheat, but also a snitch, two forms of the lowest filth you can call a human being, I think that's perfect behavior to presume he knew about Singapore, and probably helped plan it too. I mean, from cheat, to snitch, all he needed was fraud and he'd have a perfect record!!! :rotfl:



#7962 as65p

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:57

Undie the hamilton fan desperately trying to save alonso's ass?

:rotfl:


:up: That was a nice one indeed.  ;)

And what's more, "save Alonso's ass", from what? The dreaded wrath of the internet fan community? :D

#7963 Birelman

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:59

Yes, exactly, I said, its "perfect to assume" given his apparent character, now where did I accuse him? Where did I say, he knew, and planned and so on and so forth? as you are apparently "accusing me of accusing" :p

#7964 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:08

Yes, exactly, I said, its "perfect to assume" given his apparent character, now where did I accuse him? Where did I say, he knew, and planned and so on and so forth? as you are apparently "accusing me of accusing" :p

Well I think it's reasonable to assume your assumption of his guilt amounts to an accusation :D

#7965 Birelman

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:10

Well I think it's reasonable to assume your assumption of his guilt amounts to an accusation :D

lol

#7966 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:11

de la Rosa had an invested interest to portray the issue as "competely normal" as he was involved in it.
I'm very sceptical about that being the usual modus operandi of every driver.

But I guess we'll never know for sure if every driver would do what Alonso did.


Well other drivers haven't had the opportunity, as fas as we know. We can't be sure, you are quite right, but personally I take Pedro as a standard, he seems the least underhand person you could imagine.

#7967 Bonaventura

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:14

Well then, no harm no foul, why not just give McLaren back their 100 million and we can all have one heck of a party with that left over cash!!!!

good idea!
At no regular court McLaren would have been convicted
The FIA judgement was based on the possibillity that there could have been an advantage for McLaren from knowing the Ferrari data
or that there could probably be an advantage in the future for the 2008 car
they had no real evidence about the use of Ferrari data, despite this few e-mails from Alonso and de la Rosa.

Edited by Bonaventura, 01 May 2011 - 21:15.


#7968 prty

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:46

So you imply that all team drivers sent email to their test driver about their rival cars I.P with the full knowledge that it was stolen?? :rolleyes:


The difference with McLaren was they had a friggin dossier with drawings, etc. That is a new level and not something usual. But what the drivers were emailing don't refer to the dossier in any way.

#7969 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:39

max agreeing that Alonso cheated

Alonso fans who still cant believe the black on white from the transcripts from the council hearings in 2007 should watch this. Alonso cheated. He really really did. Sorry folks. Its hard facts any which way you look at it. Alonsos very own words from the emails prove this. Now you can try to deal with it by marginalizing it somehow. But it will always be there - tainting him as a driver and a man.
He is a brilliant driver but a cheat never gets any respect from me. The same goes for Hamilton btw, after his lying to the stewards in Australia. And De la Rosa obviously. I know drivers are no saints but those are very severe and different transgressions altogether. I can appreciate their driving but being a fan of them? I don't get that.

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none. (My personal guess is that it was intentional from Alonsos side to keep Hamilton uninformed)

#7970 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:39

The difference with McLaren was they had a friggin dossier with drawings, etc. That is a new level and not something usual. But what the drivers were emailing don't refer to the dossier in any way.


No McLaren did not have the dossier. FFS, how many times. Just the bits of it Coughlan chose to use.

I know you want to have the team as the bad guys and Alonso the innocent, but your distinctions are artificial. They all had exactly the same view of what they were doing.

#7971 Suntrek

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:45

How should Lewis not have corporated with the FIA
about something he was not involved?
Lewis Hamilton was the only one of the drivers who was personally present at the FIA hearing while Alonso and de la Rosa where excused of being busy and gave only written statements.


That is not correct. De la Rosa was very much present. His testimony was vital.

I'm amazed by the way some people who have no idea about the facts, haven't read the transcript of the hearing or have the faintest idea about the verdict still post just about anything totally out of the blue.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be... :well:

#7972 Watkins74

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:52

max agreeing that Alonso cheated



Alonso fans who still cant believe the black on white from the transcripts from the council hearings in 2007 should watch this. Alonso cheated. He really really did. Sorry folks. Its hard facts any which way you look at it. Alonsos very own words from the emails prove this. Now you can try to deal with it by marginalizing it somehow. But it will always be there - tainting him as a driver and a man.
He is a brilliant driver but a cheat never gets any respect from me. The same goes for Hamilton btw, after his lying to the stewards in Australia. And De la Rosa obviously. I know drivers are no saints but those are very severe and different transgressions altogether. I can appreciate their driving but being a fan of them? I don't get that.

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none. (My personal guess is that it was intentional from Alonsos side to keep Hamilton uninformed)

So how was De la Rosa going to test the gas in the tires without the team knowing and helping him?

I have no problem admitting Alonso will take every advantage or tactic to win. He is no angel. F1 if ruthless business and I am not naive to that.

I fall short of the glory myself sometimes. :smoking:

Edited by Watkins74, 01 May 2011 - 23:06.


#7973 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:58

Alonso fans who still cant believe the black on white from the transcripts from the council hearings in 2007 should watch this. Alonso cheated. He really really did. Sorry folks. Its hard facts any which way you look at it. Alonsos very own words from the emails prove this. Now you can try to deal with it by marginalizing it somehow. But it will always be there - tainting him as a driver and a man.
He is a brilliant driver but a cheat never gets any respect from me. The same goes for Hamilton btw, after his lying to the stewards in Australia. And De la Rosa obviously. I know drivers are no saints but those are very severe and different transgressions altogether. I can appreciate their driving but being a fan of them? I don't get that.

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none. (My personal guess is that it was intentional from Alonsos side to keep Hamilton uninformed)


Max was the biggest cheat of the lot, I don't know why you give any special value to what he said. Everyone cheats in F1, as Bernie said, it's just a matter of degree. How honest was it of Kimi to put Massa on the grass at 300kph in Spa? It's against the rules, is it not? Dangerous even. Question of degree.

By the standards at the time Alonso's use of the leak was quite normal. Max and Ferrari dishonestly moved the goalposts to make it seem like a big deal, but it wasn't. Nor was liegate, if you consider the position Ryan put Hamilton in. You're being unreasonably righteous. Selectively so I would say.

#7974 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 23:25

Max was the biggest cheat of the lot, I don't know why you give any special value to what he said. Everyone cheats in F1, as Bernie said, it's just a matter of degree. How honest was it of Kimi to put Massa on the grass at 300kph in Spa? It's against the rules, is it not? Dangerous even. Question of degree.

By the standards at the time Alonso's use of the leak was quite normal. Max and Ferrari dishonestly moved the goalposts to make it seem like a big deal, but it wasn't. Nor was liegate, if you consider the position Ryan put Hamilton in. You're being unreasonably righteous. Selectively so I would say.

However pathetic and completely irrelevant your attempt of discrediting Max is, it doesnt help. He and the reporter are only quoting the transcripts and he was not the only guy involved was he? Loads of people and lawyers were involved who all said the same thing but just argued how severe the punishment shuld be. Alonso only very narrowly avoided being thrown out of the entire championship. And the only reason for that was because of the great battle that was going on.
And your argument seems to be that since "everybody" cheats then why take any action. "Everybody" does it. Well, two wrongs dont make a right, does it? What a ridiculous thing to say guy.

His use of the leak was "normal"? The spy saga wasnt a "big deal"?? LOL. You actually just seriously discredited yourself my friend. The lengths some people go to try to justify Alonsos cheating.. :rolleyes:

#7975 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 23:41

However pathetic and completely irrelevant your attempt of discrediting Max is, it doesnt help. He and the reporter are only quoting the transcripts and he was not the only guy involved was he? Loads of people and lawyers were involved who all said the same thing but just argued how severe the punishment shuld be. Alonso only very narrowly avoided being thrown out of the entire championship. And the only reason for that was because of the great battle that was going on.
And your argument seems to be that since "everybody" cheats then why take any action. "Everybody" does it. Well, two wrongs dont make a right, does it? What a ridiculous thing to say guy.

His use of the leak was "normal"? The spy saga wasnt a "big deal"?? LOL. You actually just seriously discredited yourself my friend. The lengths some people go to try to justify Alonsos cheating.. :rolleyes:


Max led everyone by the nose. Did you really miss the Renault case?

#7976 Anomnader

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 23:52

good idea!
At no regular court McLaren would have been convicted
The FIA judgement was based on the possibillity that there could have been an advantage for McLaren from knowing the Ferrari data
or that there could probably be an advantage in the future for the 2008 car
they had no real evidence about the use of Ferrari data, despite this few e-mails from Alonso and de la Rosa.



This is what confuses me most about the alonso is clean brigade is that to do so is the Attempt to paint mclaten black at the same time clearing alonso, you can't have it both ways, deny stuff about alonso whilst at the same time making stuff up

#7977 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 23:53

Max led everyone by the nose. Did you really miss the Renault case?

So "everyone" seems to be your go-to argument here. Sorry, but that doesnt cut it in the real world.

Why do you think Piquet jr. never said that Alonso knew about it?

Probably because he doesnt want anymore trouble and wants to forget the whole thing. I cannot say for a fact that Alonso knew, the way I can say that Alonso cheated for a fact in the spy-saga. But given his track record and reputation of being deeply involved in his team its not exactly a stretch to say that he most likely was full aware of the plans.

#7978 Kohque

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:48

max agreeing that Alonso cheated


:rotfl: How typical... Now, compare your piece of the interview with the whole interview. Can you repeat for us what Max Mosley says from minute 8:06 to answer the question of Alonso being a cheat?



He, as a lawyer, is just talking common sense, while the British interviewer is trying to put in Mosley's mouth what he, and many of many British want to hear. Mosley basically says what I was trying to explain with an example for five years old to another Alonso-hater :yawnface: : McLaren was guilty, not Alonso. When Mosley says that it was cheating, he is obviously referring to McLaren. But really, it is hopeless with some, because when you put blinkers to a donkey, it can only see in one direction :lol:

#7979 Hole

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:07

You did not read the post did you? Maybe you should before you act like a moral supremacist.

Here is an example of how you read:

I think Alonso is quite a lousy cook, specially when it comes to lowlife like seafood. I am not sure about that, because my guesses is not always correct.

Don't even try to deny it.

EDIT: Formatting


You did not read the post either. Apart from that, show me one thread about a driver that is free from bashers. That, was in fact what my post was about. The lack of respect. In was more directed to towards the bashers than towards the fans. But that should of course not keep you from bashing...


:rotfl:



Did Alonso give back the victories he had from the illegal weapon mass damper (WMD)?

Sorry. This thread is really pathetic. If people want to be a fan of Alonso they should IMO accept him as he is and stop pretending that he has no beauty spots. It's like having a girlfriend that has small breasts and pretending they are huge, not only for yourself but you also for everyone you meet. "Those tits are huge" you say, even if she is sunbathing topless and the opposite is clear for everyone to see. Thing is, you love her and should accept the size. Or maybe it is not the tits, maybe she can not cook and you have a dinner party where everybody is staring at disbelief at their plate after their first bite. You can not say that your wife is a great cook and that the food is excellent. You can tell it to her and eat, but you will not fool anyone else.

Alonso has flaws. Kimi (since he is brought up often in his thread) has flaws. Schumi and Vettel have flaws. You have flaws, as have Desdirodeabike. I have flaws. We all also have qualities.

If you like someone you have measured the qualities against the flaws and come to a conclusion. Some flaws might not have been visible in the beginning and you might need to re-evaluate. Like a Swedish sports trainer that I read about. He trained some world champions and was a respected guy. Turned out he (literally) ****ed them all when they were kids.

In a love relationship you either accept the flaws or you deny them. It is only the former relationship that can survive because denial is always defeated by time.



See how you started the post. I did not delete selective words nor anything like that as you attepmted to "imply".

How you were trying to throw critizism towards the bashers by starting the post saying what people that support Alonso should do or shouldn't do?

Really, don't feel like going on with this thing, believe whatever you feel like to but what I said in the previous page is pretty much standing.

Edited by AdamKOR, 02 May 2011 - 02:08.


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#7980 Kohque

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:35

But given his track record and reputation of being deeply involved in his team its not exactly a stretch to say that he most likely was full aware of the plans.


If that is not a stretch, what is?

I don't mean to involve Hamilton in any way with the spything, but he believes he is more "involved in his team" (quoting you) than any other driver in the paddock, so following your amazing reasoning skills and without stretching things toooooo much (just few galaxies), he was "most likely" (quoting you again) the one who brought the Ferrari specs to the nearest photocopy shop :lol:

Dude, seriously, how old are you? 7? 8? If that the case I'm sorry kid, you are right: The tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus brings you toys every Xmas and Alonso is Dick Dastardly. ;)

#7981 redbarron

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:43

Why is this spygate rubbish being brought up again? grr

#7982 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:53


Sure, he knew about it, as the e-mails clearly show and people has repeated for the nth time :yawnface: . Let's try with a tedious analogy :rolleyes: :

A guy rob a bank and his son happens to know it, and he doesn't care if his father has robbed a bank (you follow, right?) The father goes to trial and is found guilty of robbing the bank, but he is so beloved by the people in the neighborhood that they can only talk about how GUILTY his son is of knowing about his father and not saying anything to the police. Not only he doesn't say anything, but actually he enjoys the money. But then, when he is called to testify, people blame him for talking and call him a blackmailer and whistleblower :confused: .

I can understand the neighbors would like to see the brat hanged, but what exactly is he guilty of? Not accomplice, in case you are wondering. Alonso didn't help in any way in getting that information.



The son is guilty of handling stolen goods. Possibly money laundering as well, although that wouldn't fit the analogy so well.
Your analogy is also missing out some aspects of the son's behaviour; why is he being branded "blackmailer" and "whistleblower"? It won't be because he talked after being called to testify. The neighbours clearly believe that the son used his knowledge of his father's involvement in a bank robbery to try to gain something from his father - something that his father, presumably, would not have given him of his own free will. The neighbours also appear to believe that the police investigated the father (or perhaps re-investigated) as a result of the son informing on him after the alleged blackmail attempt had failed. I'm not saying that the neighbours' beliefs are correct, but those beliefs are the basis for the son being called a blackmailer and a whistleblower.

Leaving aside the big elephant in the room, you could say that using that information is not a commendable attitude, even though is just as common as apple pie in F1 for teams to copy other team designs and for drivers to be very eager to add them to their cars. The difference is that they usually don't possess the whole specs from your rival's car. So the question again is not whether he should have used the information or not. The question is: Should Alonso have blew the whistle when they gave him the information or use it as he did?

The Wonderland scenario is for Alonso to have said: "No, dude, this is wrong. If they want to improve the car, they can do it, but don't let me know" (even though he was already aware of the paper :confused: ). I found quite stupefying that people call him whistleblower and blackmailer, and then complain because he did not blew it when he should and only gave the information only when asked.

So to put your thoughts in order: The reason above is not a reason for you to hate the guy. Rather, your hatred for Alonso makes that an unequivocal reason to reinforce your bile. :) Otherwise, your hatred for Alonso must be nothing compare to the hatred you have for McLaren. Is that the case? ;)


(my bold)
The reason above could be a reason to hate the guy, whether it be Alonso or the son. You have portrayed him as behaving selfishly and with clear callousness, only doing "the right thing" when it was in his own interest. The issue you have correctly highlighted is of whether one can condemn Alonso for using information that he knew was provided by a Ferrari mole while excusing the McLaren team for doing the same.


That is priceless.


#7983 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:57

Why is this spygate rubbish being brought up again? grr


I think you should get used to it. It's part of Alonso's an F1's history. Any half decent future Alonso's biography will have a chapter on it.


#7984 Kohque

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:53

The son is guilty of handling stolen goods. Possibly money laundering as well, although that wouldn't fit the analogy so well.
Your analogy is also missing out some aspects of the son's behaviour; why is he being branded "blackmailer" and "whistleblower"? It won't be because he talked after being called to testify. The neighbours clearly believe that the son used his knowledge of his father's involvement in a bank robbery to try to gain something from his father - something that his father, presumably, would not have given him of his own free will. The neighbours also appear to believe that the police investigated the father (or perhaps re-investigated) as a result of the son informing on him after the alleged blackmail attempt had failed. I'm not saying that the neighbours' beliefs are correct, but those beliefs are the basis for the son being called a blackmailer and a whistleblower.


By "handling" you mean, driving a car with parts that were taken from the Ferrari, because he didn't handle anything else. He couldn't. He didn't "help to realize the value of the stolen goods" as Wikipedia put it. He did was he was hired for: Driving. He only knew his car would have improvements. That's quite different from "helping to realize the value" of stolen data, but correct me on this. The only thing he did wrong, not even guilty of anything, was not to blow the whistle when he should. So calling him whistleblower makes absolutely no sense. And I understand why he acted in this way. Try to imagine if he actually had blown the whistle at that point:

1. The press would have eaten him alive and the F1 world would have hated him for life (not much difference anyway :p ). I doubt the F1 world will be kinder to him if he had spoken at the time instead of doing it when he was asked.

2. Screwing the team for no reason would have ended his career.

Your analogy is also missing out some aspects of the son's behaviour; why is he being branded "blackmailer" and "whistleblower"? It won't be because he talked after being called to testify. The neighbours clearly believe that the son used his knowledge of his father's involvement in a bank robbery to try to gain something from his father - something that his father, presumably, would not have given him of his own free will.
The neighbours also appear to believe that the police investigated the father (or perhaps re-investigated) as a result of the son informing on him after the alleged blackmail attempt had failed. I'm not saying that the neighbours' beliefs are correct, but those beliefs are the basis for the son being called a blackmailer and a whistleblower.


As you said, it is based on beliefs. Yes, I am also not naive enough to believe that Briatore, his manager, did not try to negotiate Alonso's way out using that information which Alonso gave him prior the scandal broke out. But maybe Alonso did not know that Briatore would pass the information to Bernie and Mosley (according to a book anyway). For the sake of believing, this contract was negotiated similarly to the one of Piquet Jr.'s before he spilled the beans. And like his, many others. It is a strong belief, based on real life, not facts. But yes, I understand that beliefs are enough to reinforce your hate for someone.

People stay naive about all this is because they want to hate the guy and blame on him things, as I said before, that are as common as apple pie in F1.

(my bold)
The reason above could be a reason to hate the guy, whether it be Alonso or the son. You have portrayed him as behaving selfishly and with clear callousness, only doing "the right thing" when it was in his own interest. The issue you have correctly highlighted is of whether one can condemn Alonso for using information that he knew was provided by a Ferrari mole while excusing the McLaren team for doing the same.


Yes, it could be a reason, and that's why I said that if that is the case to hate him ("using" stolen data), then it follows that he must despise McLaren, not only for using it but also for stealing it. But since that is not the case, then the hatred for Alonso is irrespective of what he did or didn't do during the spycase.

So no, neither whistleblower nor blackmailer, rather real life drivers with real problems who hast to put up with a gullible public just too ready to follow a freak-show created by the media.

#7985 e34

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 06:45

I think you should get used to it. It's part of Alonso's an F1's history. Any half decent future Alonso's biography will have a chapter on it.


Yes, but this is like Groundhog Day. One thing is to have a chapter on it, and quite another to end every chapter with the freaking email-pit crowding-blackmail-Singapore tirade.

#7986 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 07:41

If that is not a stretch, what is?

I don't mean to involve Hamilton in any way with the spything, but he believes he is more "involved in his team" (quoting you) than any other driver in the paddock, so following your amazing reasoning skills and without stretching things toooooo much (just few galaxies), he was "most likely" (quoting you again) the one who brought the Ferrari specs to the nearest photocopy shop :lol:

Dude, seriously, how old are you? 7? 8? If that the case I'm sorry kid, you are right: The tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus brings you toys every Xmas and Alonso is Dick Dastardly.;)

This Alonso cheating business must really pain you if you are already resorting to trying to belittle me by calling me a kid.

As for what you said, you are twisting things around. Perhaps on purpose? To clear things up - I have made perfectly clear that it is my own personal view that Alonso most likely knew about the crash plans. For Alonso and crashgate, we the public have not had the same access to detailed documents as we did with the spycase. Compared with the Hamilton involvement in 2007, there are plenty of documentation that support that Hamilton was not involved in the spy-saga. But all we have concerning crashgate and Alonsos partaking are comments from the involved such as Piquet stating that Alonso didnt know. It may be true but I tend to think Alonso dodged a bullet with that case and was protected by the primus motor(s). It is just way too unlikely for me that he was completely in the dark. If you disagree with me, thats fine.

#7987 Kohque

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 07:59

This Alonso cheating business must really pain you if you are already resorting to trying to belittle me by calling me a kid.

As for what you said, you are twisting things around. Perhaps on purpose? To clear things up - I have made perfectly clear that it is my own personal view that Alonso most likely knew about the crash plans. For Alonso and crashgate, we the public have not had the same access to detailed documents as we did with the spycase. Compared with the Hamilton involvement in 2007, there are plenty of documentation that support that Hamilton was not involved in the spy-saga. But all we have concerning crashgate and Alonsos partaking are comments from the involved such as Piquet stating that Alonso didnt know. It may be true but I tend to think Alonso dodged a bullet with that case and was protected by the primus motor(s). It is just way too unlikely for me that he was completely in the dark. If you disagree with me, thats fine.


Well, don't be so hard on me :p . You, and the rest of Alonso-haters, have belittled the guy for like forever now, so don't take it so bad :) But I apologize for the remarks. Let's see if you, or any of the Alonso-haters, can give the guy a break. I doubt it.

I've never said Hamilton was involved in the spycase, and I would not belittle him for other issues. I have the view that these guys are from planet Earth, not Mars. And F1 is not a pie in the sky or Wonderland. Real life is a tad more complicated. I think you know that too, but then you come to the forum and start pounding on Alonso like he was Dick Dastardly (not only you, many others)... as if you have some moral high ground. Maybe you do, but then don't complain if I try defend, as much as I can, Alonso, not for doing everything right, far from it, but to try to portray him more like a normal driver than Dick Dastardly, as you all seem to enjoy doing. :smoking:

#7988 nbhb

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:22

So "everyone" seems to be your go-to argument here. Sorry, but that doesnt cut it in the real world.


Probably because he doesnt want anymore trouble and wants to forget the whole thing. I cannot say for a fact that Alonso knew, the way I can say that Alonso cheated for a fact in the spy-saga. But given his track record and reputation of being deeply involved in his team its not exactly a stretch to say that he most likely was full aware of the plans.


What troubles? They guy doesn't love Alonso for sure. His daddy also.

Edited by nbhb, 02 May 2011 - 08:24.


#7989 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:24

Well, don't be so hard on me :p . You, and the rest of Alonso-haters, have belittled the guy for like forever now, so don't take it so bad :) But I apologize for the remarks. Let's see if you, or any of the Alonso-haters, can give the guy a break. I doubt it.

I've never said Hamilton was involved in the spycase, and I would not belittle him for other issues. I have the view that these guys are from planet Earth, not Mars. And F1 is not a pie in the sky or Wonderland. Real life is a tad more complicated. I think you know that too, but then you come to the forum and start pounding on Alonso like he was Dick Dastardly (not only you, many others)... as if you have some moral high ground. Maybe you do, but then don't complain if I try defend, as much as I can, Alonso, not for doing everything right, far from it, but to try to portray him more like a normal driver than Dick Dastardly, as you all seem to enjoy doing. :smoking:

Dick Dastardly.. Nice. To be honest he reminds me more of Muttley sometimes  ;)

The reason I am posting on this spycase thing is that some people started saying was completely innocent in the spycase. Which he was clearly not when you exchange emails and texts about wanting to test the stuff in the Ferrari dossier. To me that is pretty outrageous. I would compare that to top athletes taking illegal substances to enhance their performance. As in trying to gain an unfair and illegal advantage.
I am not perfect myself, but then I am not a highly profiled person that is a rolemodel for a lot of people either. And I was taught early on that this sort of behavior is not acceptable.

Concerning whistleblowing - it was Ron Dennis who went to Mosley, not Alonso. Dennis did so after Alonso threatened to tell the FIA everything unless certain things changed in the team.. If Alonso really felt this was wrong he should have just went on his own accord without threatening Ron Dennis first. Or even better - when he first realized what data they were using before the season started. But he didnt. The only reason we know of this stuff now is because Alonso was promised a deal if he and the others involved came out with all the info and correspondance they had. That is why I get a bad taste in my mouth when Alonso says that he was happy to help clear up the spy-saga with the FIA. As if he was doing this completely voluntarily.

#7990 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:36

No McLaren did not have the dossier. FFS, how many times. Just the bits of it Coughlan chose to use.

I know you want to have the team as the bad guys and Alonso the innocent, but your distinctions are artificial. They all had exactly the same view of what they were doing.


And what team did Coughlan work for?

#7991 nbhb

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:37

Dick Dastardly.. Nice. To be honest he reminds me more of Muttley sometimes ;)

The reason I am posting on this spycase thing is that some people started saying was completely innocent in the spycase. Which he was clearly not when you exchange emails and texts about wanting to test the stuff in the Ferrari dossier. To me that is pretty outrageous. I would compare that to top athletes taking illegal substances to enhance their performance. As in trying to gain an unfair and illegal advantage.
I am not perfect myself, but then I am not a highly profiled person that is a rolemodel for a lot of people either. And I was taught early on that this sort of behavior is not acceptable.


Concerning whistleblowing - it was Ron Dennis who went to Mosley, not Alonso. Dennis did so after Alonso threatened to tell the FIA everything unless certain things changed in the team.. If Alonso really felt this was wrong he should have just went on his own accord without threatening Ron Dennis first. Or even better - when he first realized what data they were using before the season started. But he didnt. The only reason we know of this stuff now is because Alonso was promised a deal if he and the others involved came out with all the info and correspondance they had. That is why I get a bad taste in my mouth when Alonso says that he was happy to help clear up the spy-saga with the FIA. As if he was doing this completely voluntarily.


Let me tell you something, this is not the first time when a F1 team has stolen datas from other team and some of his employees (including driver) know this matter. Trust me Hamilton knew, a lot of the engineers knew... Why should they tell FIA, they are just employees who are working for that company.

Don't tell me that if you are an employer and you see that your company has datas from other company you will go to police... Please don't.

Edited by nbhb, 02 May 2011 - 08:38.


#7992 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:40

And what team did Coughlan work for?


Fernando's team :)

#7993 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:50

Fernando's team :)


Yep but Fernando wasnt responsible for McLaren and employees acts, thats the team principal role.

#7994 Bonaventura

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:51

Let me tell you something, this is not the first time when a F1 team has stolen datas from other team and some of his employees (including driver) know this matter. Trust me Hamilton knew, a lot of the engineers knew... Why should they tell FIA, they are just employees who are working for that company.

Don't tell me that if you are an employer and you see that your company has datas from other company you will go to police... Please don't.

The "funny" thing is the data was not stolen
It was given to them from an Ferrari employee
No McLaren employee went to Ferrari as spy or had taken away something, it was a Ferrari man who did it.

#7995 nbhb

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:57

The "funny" thing is the data was not stolen
It was given to them from an Ferrari employee
No McLaren employee went to Ferrari as spy or had taken away something, it was a Ferrari man who did it.

And McLaren was forced to accept this documents? :rotfl:

#7996 Hairpin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:58

:rotfl:






See how you started the post. I did not delete selective words nor anything like that as you attepmted to "imply".

How you were trying to throw critizism towards the bashers by starting the post saying what people that support Alonso should do or shouldn't do?

Really, don't feel like going on with this thing, believe whatever you feel like to but what I said in the previous page is pretty much standing.

Thank you for proving my point. Selective reading is a bitch.

#7997 Bonaventura

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:08

And McLaren was forced to accept this documents? :rotfl:

I you find something on the street , what you can need, and you know your neighbour lost it
and you don't give it back because you can use it
are you a thief?
It was not good not to inform Ferrrari about Stephney and fire Coughlan immediately , but who of the other teams would have done it?
Why did Alonso not inform anybody ?

#7998 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:21

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none.

Which brings us back to the question about Singapore: did you find any proof of his involvement in any transcript or word from the testimonies? And if not, why don't you apply to him the same criteria you are applying to Hamilton? (please note that I say"you" as a generic "you", not referring to you specifically)

#7999 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:22

Yep but Fernando wasnt responsible for McLaren and employees acts, thats the team principal role.


Well it's a question of ethics isn't it?. How wrong was it to make use of Stepney?

That is the entire question.

However wrong you may think it was, a lot or a little, Fernando is in exactly the same boat as the others.

And we saw that the outraged parties, Max and Ferrari, were completely faking their outrage - Max had lunch with Fernando and became his protector, supposedly, while Ferrari never said a word against him and now employ him.

So the whole 'spying' thing is a non-event, as far as the morality is concerned. It was normal F1, at the time. The really immoral roles were played by Max, Todt and Monty.

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#8000 nbhb

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:25

I you find something on the street , what you can need, and you know your neighbour lost it
and you don't give it back because you can use it
are you a thief?
It was not good not to inform Ferrrari about Stephney and fire Coughlan immediately , but who of the other teams would have done it?
Why did Alonso not inform anybody ?

What a joke... If some has lost something and you find it you will not give back to him? Well... you must be such a "correct" person. :down:

McLaren if they would have been so fair they would have returned this documents to Ferrari straight away. They didn't. No other team would have did it maybe... but this doesn't excuse McLaren.
Alonso mistake was because he blackmailed Ron Dennis. This was not his job.