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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#8001 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:26

So what do you think he and Pedro was emailing each other?
How to make pasta curry? :lol:

I would have expected anyone familiar with the 2007 proceedings (or at least familiar enough to discuss them) to know that the two email conversations (yes, two - please re-read the proceedings) between Alonso and De la Rosa were dated prior to Stepney receiving the dossier. So it is obvious that the information discussed could not come from the 780-pages dossier, and therefore that there was no way to link Alonso and De la Rosa to it.

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#8002 speng

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:42

Is that you Morgana

#8003 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:46

I would have expected anyone familiar with the 2007 proceedings (or at least familiar enough to discuss them) to know that the two email conversations (yes, two - please re-read the proceedings) between Alonso and De la Rosa were dated prior to Stepney receiving the dossier. So it is obvious that the information discussed could not come from the 780-pages dossier, and therefore that there was no way to link Alonso and De la Rosa to it.


"The e-mails show unequivocally
that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information
via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential
Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by
Coughlan from Stepney.
"

http://www.fia.com/r...sion_130907.pdf


#8004 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:46

However wrong you may think it was, a lot or a little, Fernando is in exactly the same boat as the others.


No matter how you want to paint it, if an employee steals a dossier from another team, the drivers are not responsible (especially since they didn't know about it), but the team principal, who is in charge of the organization.


#8005 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:54

I have ben reading the comments above, and it seems to me that some people are a bit confused about what the proceedings and testimonies of the people involved say went on in McLaren.

There were two different types of "information" that McLaren received from Ferrari through Stepney. One was the snippets he gave them, ranking from when Raikkonen was to stop in Australia to technical details like the weight distribution of the car. A second one was the 780-pages dossier.

From what we read in the transcripts, it was proved that the first part, the snippets, were circulated within McLaren; but for all we know, it also seems proved that McLaren drew the line when Coughlan came back from one of his meetings with Stepney with a big dossier under his arm, and asked Coughlan to get rid of it. I cannot understand why people keep going on about McLaren (as a team) using it - they didn't. The only question mark was whether part of it had permeated through Coughlan's job.

The proceedings proved that the snippets had been circulating within McLaren well before Alonso joined the team, so he walked into a established situation. As many people have pointed out here, seeking those bits of information from rival teams was not something that only McLaren was doing (The Times published an article called "I spy" in their F1 section at the beginning of the 2007 season that explained precisely that). The differential factors here were the high level within Ferrari of the person leaking the information, the fact that at some point in time the dossier affair was unearthed, and what many people perceived to be a personal confrontation between Mosley and Dennis.

The proceedings proved that several McLaren employees, particularly in the engineering side, knew that McLaren had "a mole at Ferrari" and who that mole was. By the way, do you think that De la Rosa would have casually explained the whole situation to Alonso by mail had it not been "common knowledge" within the team?

The FIA decided that, whether through the use of Ferrari IP in their own cars or simply by knowing more about their rivals, McLaren had indeeed gained an illegal advantage in 2007, and this is specifically stated in the proceedings - hence the fine and loss of points for that season. It was also decided that the 2008 car would be subject to scrutiny to guarantee that no Ferrari IP was in it.

And one final comment: Pedro de la Rosa has been and is one of McLaren's most loyal employees - just watch and listen to Dennis and Whitmarsh when tey talk to or about him. To think that he would work against the team, or even behind the team's back, to please Alonso just because they share the same nationality is nonsense.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 02 May 2011 - 10:40.


#8006 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:55

No matter how you want to paint it, if an employee steals a dossier from another team, the drivers are not responsible (especially since they didn't know about it), but the team principal, who is in charge of the organization.


The dossier is irrelevant to the ethics of it. It's simply A difference that you're latching onto. It wasn't 'stolen' by Coughlan anyway, but by a Ferrari team member.

The important part is the confidentiality of the information, whether in dossier form or text or phone call or any other medium.

The team principal didn't know about it, so if anything he's the least guilty person we've mentioned.

But Alonso, Pedro, Neale, Lowe and Taylor were all equally unethical, or not.

#8007 Suntrek

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:56

This Alonso cheating business must really pain you if you are already resorting to trying to belittle me by calling me a kid.

As for what you said, you are twisting things around. Perhaps on purpose? To clear things up - I have made perfectly clear that it is my own personal view that Alonso most likely knew about the crash plans. For Alonso and crashgate, we the public have not had the same access to detailed documents as we did with the spycase. Compared with the Hamilton involvement in 2007, there are plenty of documentation that support that Hamilton was not involved in the spy-saga. But all we have concerning crashgate and Alonsos partaking are comments from the involved such as Piquet stating that Alonso didnt know. It may be true but I tend to think Alonso dodged a bullet with that case and was protected by the primus motor(s). It is just way too unlikely for me that he was completely in the dark. If you disagree with me, thats fine.


Nonsense again! .
It's ALWAYS a good idea to find out the facts before posting. For crashgate, we have even more detailed documents. In fact BOTH audio and text. Feel free:

http://www.fia.com/e...20909_docs.aspx

Decision here.

http://www.fia.com/e...msc_210909.aspx

Snippet from decision:

As regards Fernando Alonso, the World Motor Sport Council thanks him for cooperating with the FIA’s enquiries and for attending the meeting, and concludes that Mr. Alonso was not in any way involved in Renault F1’s breach of the regulations.







#8008 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:38

Which brings us back to the question about Singapore: did you find any proof of his involvement in any transcript or word from the testimonies? And if not, why don't you apply to him the same criteria you are applying to Hamilton? (please note that I say"you" as a generic "you", not referring to you specifically)

I hear you and I responded to this already. Read my post on top of this page concerning this.

Nonsense again! .
It's ALWAYS a good idea to find out the facts before posting. For crashgate, we have even more detailed documents. In fact BOTH audio and text. Feel free:

http://www.fia.com/e...20909_docs.aspx

Decision here.

http://www.fia.com/e...msc_210909.aspx

The files, dossier and transcripts from the spycase were still far more extensive. And I am aware of the dossier you are linking to. Compared to what I sat and read through in 2007 this is not the same.
But again, this just centers on my opinion and viewpoint. I believe Alonso was protected and his name kept out of the records by Briatore and Symonds. I think that is most likely but feel free to disagree as I have no proof of this.

Edit: And I am aware that by that logic, Hamilton could also have been protected by Ron Dennis or whatever. So if I should be truly principal then I should suspect Hamilton as well for being involved in 2007. But I just didnt see it, even though I tried hard looking for it. So maybe I should just concede and give Alonso the benefit of the doubt in crashgate however unlikely it seems to me that he was blissfully unaware.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 02 May 2011 - 10:46.


#8009 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:39

The dossier is irrelevant to the ethics of it. It's simply A difference that you're latching onto. It wasn't 'stolen' by Coughlan anyway, but by a Ferrari team member.

The important part is the confidentiality of the information, whether in dossier form or text or phone call or any other medium.

The team principal didn't know about it, so if anything he's the least guilty person we've mentioned.

But Alonso, Pedro, Neale, Lowe and Taylor were all equally unethical, or not.


The dossier is important because it's what differenciates the regular "low-key" spionage stuff usually goes on with what McLaren did. To the drivers and probably more people inside the team, it was a case of the usual stuff, but in reality it wasn't, and some were fully aware of it. The team principal doesn't have to know, but he is still responsible for what goes on inside his company.

Edited by prty, 02 May 2011 - 10:40.


#8010 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:39

Yes, but this is like Groundhog Day. One thing is to have a chapter on it, and quite another to end every chapter with the freaking email-pit crowding-blackmail-Singapore tirade.


Nice analogy , to the movie that is, and on to keep on the same analogy, if you remember, the day kept repeating until the main character actually learned something.
Until most of you stop trying to rewrite the chapter or ignore it, it's worth repeating. Besides it makes a far more interesting reading than to read people blabering about the latest
Alonso's PR.

Edited by cardin, 02 May 2011 - 10:55.


#8011 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:43

I believe Alonso was protected and his name kept out of the records by Briatore and Symonds. I think that is most likely but feel free to disagree as I have no proof of this.


'nuff said. By the way:

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=143748



#8012 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:53

By "handling" you mean, driving a car with parts that were taken from the Ferrari, because he didn't handle anything else. He couldn't. He didn't "help to realize the value of the stolen goods" as Wikipedia put it. He did was he was hired for: Driving. He only knew his car would have improvements. That's quite different from "helping to realize the value" of stolen data, but correct me on this.

The son is guilty of handling stolen goods. If you believe that the same is not true of Alonso then your analogy is flawed. However, my understanding of the published emails is that Alonso: was aware of Ferrari data; was aware that the data was not legitimately obtained; intended to participate in tests that would be benefiting from that data.*

The only thing he did wrong, not even guilty of anything, was not to blow the whistle when he should. So calling him whistleblower makes absolutely no sense. And I understand why he acted in this way. Try to imagine if he actually had blown the whistle at that point:

1. The press would have eaten him alive and the F1 world would have hated him for life (not much difference anyway :p ). I doubt the F1 world will be kinder to him if he had spoken at the time instead of doing it when he was asked.

I disagree. Had Alonso revealed that McLaren had a mole in Ferrari that was feeding them confidential information as soon as he became aware of it, he would not have been vilified by the media or by the F1 world. What damaged Alonso's image wasn't a hostile press, it was the timing of the revelations - immediately after he had visibly fallen out with his team.

2. Screwing the team for no reason would have ended his career.

I'm sure many would say that he did and it didn't. Then there are others who would say that "screwing the team" because they were cheating is not "no reason", it is a very good reason.


As you said, it is based on beliefs. Yes, I am also not naive enough to believe that Briatore, his manager, did not try to negotiate Alonso's way out using that information which Alonso gave him prior the scandal broke out. But maybe Alonso did not know that Briatore would pass the information to Bernie and Mosley (according to a book anyway). For the sake of believing, this contract was negotiated similarly to the one of Piquet Jr.'s before he spilled the beans. And like his, many others. It is a strong belief, based on real life, not facts. But yes, I understand that beliefs are enough to reinforce your hate for someone.

People stay naive about all this is because they want to hate the guy and blame on him things, as I said before, that are as common as apple pie in F1.

So it's Briatore's fault?

Yes, it could be a reason,


The reason above is not a reason for you to hate the guy.


and that's why I said that if that is the case to hate him ("using" stolen data), then it follows that he must despise McLaren, not only for using it but also for stealing it. But since that is not the case, then the hatred for Alonso is irrespective of what he did or didn't do during the spycase.

(my bold)
So you think that there is no-one who dislikes both Alonso and McLaren? I can assure you there are such people. I'm sure there are also fans of McLaren who despise the individuals within the team that were knowingly involved but don't despise the team as a whole.





* As an aside, the emails make clear that Alonso wanted Ferrari's tyre gas solution tested by McLaren. I think that the gas used to fill the tyres counts as part of the tyre supplier's responsibility. Any data about the efficacy of different gasses should be held by the tyre supplier and made available to all teams.


#8013 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:53

I hear you and I responded to this already. Read my post on top of this page concerning this.


The files, dossier and transcripts from the spycase were still far more extensive. And I am aware of the dossier you are linking to. Compared to what I sat and read through in 2007 this is not the same.
But again, this just centers on my opinion and viewpoint. I believe Alonso was protected and his name kept out of the records by Briatore and Symonds. I think that is most likely but feel free to disagree as I have no proof of this.

Of course they were, because they did not cover just one isolated incident, but tried to understand a situation that had been going on for months. You cannot expect to gather the same amount of material for something that was planned and executed within 24 hours (from after the qualy session to the race) than for something that went on for months.

And if it is not a matter of just volume of data, which information exactly is it missing from the Crashgate dossier that you found in the Spygate one?

Now, if what you (or others) are saying is that despite all evidence you do not want to accept Alonso's non-involvement that is fine: this is just a hobby for all of us, so no big deal. But please lets state those positions clearly when we bring all these "gates" up, because otherwise we get ourselves into long discussions which bring us nowhere - and give the mods some extra work cleaning the thread!  ;)

#8014 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:54

The dossier is irrelevant to the ethics of it. It's simply A difference that you're latching onto. It wasn't 'stolen' by Coughlan anyway, but by a Ferrari team member.

The important part is the confidentiality of the information, whether in dossier form or text or phone call or any other medium.

The team principal didn't know about it, so if anything he's the least guilty person we've mentioned.

But Alonso, Pedro, Neale, Lowe and Taylor were all equally unethical, or not.


Precisely. The atempt to cloud the issue by trying to differenciate between the information verbally received from Stepney and the dossier is, of course, ludicrous.


#8015 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:59

I disagree. Had Alonso revealed that McLaren had a mole in Ferrari that was feeding them confidential information as soon as he became aware of it, he would not have been vilified by the media or by the F1 world. What damaged Alonso's image wasn't a hostile press, it was the timing of the revelations - immediately after he had visibly fallen out with his team.

I hear what you are saying, but the fact is that it has been acknowledged that Alonso did not give anything to FIA until he received FIA's letter, the same letter Hamilton and De la Rosa received too. So why do you think the press keeps presenting the facts as if he did?

#8016 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:02

oh dear,

still there are people who are discussing 2007. -> nothing bad about that.
but
there are still some users who dont understand what happened.
nevertheless
alonso was right to leave that team, which acted criminal and asked him to analyse and use stolen datas.
alonsos mistake was to be loyal with them, but he learned his lessons,


alonso :up:

#8017 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:05

The dossier is important because it's what differenciates the regular "low-key" spionage stuff usually goes on with what McLaren did. To the drivers and probably more people inside the team, it was a case of the usual stuff, but in reality it wasn't, and some were fully aware of it. The team principal doesn't have to know, but he is still responsible for what goes on inside his company.

You are so adamant that an important piece of the Ferrari organization, as Stepney was, divulging information is bussiness as usual in F1 that I suspect you are privy of information that is out of reach to the rest of us. Please do tell.

#8018 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:06

oh dear,

still there are people who are discussing 2007. -> nothing bad about that.
but
there are still some users who dont understand what happened.
nevertheless
alonso was right to leave that team, which acted criminal and asked him to analyse and use stolen datas.
alonsos mistake was to be loyal with them, but he learned his lessons,


alonso :up:


What a strange world you live in.


#8019 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:10

What a strange world you live in.

no, the strange thing was the way mclaren acted.
how can they ask their drivers to analyse stolen datas? :stoned:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 11:10.


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#8020 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:14

oh dear,

still there are people who are discussing 2007. -> nothing bad about that.
but
there are still some users who dont understand what happened.
nevertheless
alonso was right to leave that team, which acted criminal and asked him to analyse and use stolen datas.
alonsos mistake was to be loyal with them, but he learned his lessons,


alonso :up:

It must be nice living in your world where Alonso is St. Nando that has done no wrong and is a grand hero for leaving the mean mean team that forced him to do so evil evil things. Let us know when you land in the real world again.
Talk about blinders. Yours must be the size of barn doors. Alonso didnt exactly put up a heroic fight when presented with the data, did he? He wasnt exactly struggling to avoid cooporating. In fact he was quite excited and vigilant in his emails to test some of the solutions. And dont get me started on what a loyal employee Alonso was.

#8021 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:17

It must be nice living in your world where Alonso is St. Nando that has done no wrong and is a grand hero for leaving the mean mean team that forced him to do so evil evil things. Let us know when you land in the real world again.
Talk about blinders. Yours must be the size of barn doors. Alonso didnt exactly put up a heroic fight when presented with the data, did he? He wasnt exactly struggling to avoid cooporating. In fact he was quite excited and vigilant in his emails to test some of the solutions. And dont get me started on what a loyal employee Alonso was.

i am in the real world, but you not.

you are criticing alonso for being loyal with mclaren, that is just childish :drunk:

after several months he found out that it was a mistake and left them --> great character to admit that it was a mistake to be loyal and finally leaving the team.
everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody admit them, alonso did and for that he should be praised :up:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 11:19.


#8022 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:25

i am in the real world, but you not.

you are criticing alonso for being loyal with mclaren, that is just childish :drunk:

after several months he found out that it was a mistake and left them --> great character to admit that it was a mistake to be loyal and finally leaving the team.
everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody admit them, alonso did and for that he should be praised :up:

Mm, very loyal to try and blackmail his boss by threatening to go to the FIA with info on the Ferrari intel after things didnt go his way with his teammate. Sporting behaviour by a great man. (This is sarcasm by the way)
If he really was a great man, he should have done so as soon as he realized the nature of the data he had between his hands.
Did he do that? No? Did he want to try to use some of it to gain an advantage? Yes. What a hero. Lets give him a round of applause. What a character of steel he showed us all. An example to be followed. (Again, sarcasm in case you missed that)

#8023 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:27

Mm, very loyal to try and blackmail his boss by threatening to go to the FIA with info on the Ferrari intel after things didnt go his way with his teammate. Sporting behaviour by a great man. (This is sarcasm by the way)


that is just a speculation which ron dennis set in the world. alonso never said he did that, so dont act as if this is the truth
:down:

If he really was a great man, he should have done so as soon as he realized the nature of the data he had between his hands.

as already said, his loyality was wrong.
which he finally realised and left the team. :up:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 11:28.


#8024 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:28

i am in the real world, but you not.

you are criticing alonso for being loyal with mclaren, that is just childish :drunk:

after several months he found out that it was a mistake and left them --> great character to admit that it was a mistake to be loyal and finally leaving the team.
everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody admit them, alonso did and for that he should be praised :up:


Are you having a laugh ?


#8025 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:31

Are you having a laugh ?

no i am serious, but it seems that you are not :down:

#8026 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:34

no i am serious, but it seems that you are not :down:


Not at all. It's that sometimes the stuff you write is so absurd that I think you are just taking us for a spin.


#8027 Skinnyguy

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:37

i am in the real world, but you not.

you are criticing alonso for being loyal with mclaren, that is just childish :drunk:

after several months he found out that it was a mistake and left them --> great character to admit that it was a mistake to be loyal and finally leaving the team.
everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody admit them, alonso did and for that he should be praised :up:


Oh yes, St. Nando left because he was super disgusted with that Mclaren cheating bastards cos they had stolen rival data, something he´d never take advantage of...

And still you´re in the real world. Nice one. :wave:

Seriously, isn´t it easier to admit your driver flaws and like him like that than to be saying dumb things all day long to try and cover the evident?

That loyal stuff is hilarious, the guy blackmailing his boss and talking shit about his team sabotaging him, and you think he was "loyal". :blush:

#8028 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:39

that is just a speculation which ron dennis set in the world. alonso never said he did that, so dont act as if this is the truth
:down:

as already said, his loyality was wrong.
which he finally realised and left the team. :up:

Ah, so it was his loyalty that compelled him to cheat.. :stoned:
And of course it happened with Dennis. This is not a rumour. He went to Max Mosley immediately after hearing the threats from Alonso which is why the whole sorry mess unravelled.
Good grief, you are deluded. I wish I had such an ability to block out the facts as you do.


#8029 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:41

Oh yes, St. Nando left because he was super disgusted with that Mclaren cheating bastards cos they had stolen rival data, something he´d never take advantage of...

And still you´re in the real world. Nice one. :wave:

Seriously, isn´t it easier to admit your driver flaws and like him like that than to be saying dumb things all day long to try and cover the evident?

That loyal stuff is hilarious, the guy blackmailing his boss and talking shit about his team sabotaging him, and you think he was "loyal". :blush:


i am not sure why you are writing in this thread.
you are just throwing mud at alonso for no reason.
you are argumenting with speculations as if they were truth.
your intention is a bad one.
cant understand that you invest your time in this thread for hateful tirade against alonso.
why?
use your time to support your favourite driver and stop bashing/hating :down:
i am sad that there are users who invest their time here for hateful tirades. :down:

#8030 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:42

And of course it happened with Dennis. This is not a rumour.


than show us the proof for that :stoned:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 11:42.


#8031 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:53

Ah, so it was his loyalty that compelled him to cheat.. :stoned:
And of course it happened with Dennis. This is not a rumour. He went to Max Mosley immediately after hearing the threats from Alonso which is why the whole sorry mess unravelled.
Good grief, you are deluded. I wish I had such an ability to block out the facts as you do.

Well, Dennis has never been quoted explaining what happened in that meeting and how their conversation went, and neither has Alonso. But I think it is fair to say that in all likelihood the conversation was quite heated... :p

I have said here that I never understood Dennis' call to Mosley. According to Mosley, who I think is the only one who has spoken about that (glad to hear otherwise), Dennis called him to tell him that Alonso had said that he had some damaging information, but that said information did not exist. How did Dennis know it did not exist? And if he did not know, why did he say so? And why did he not call his lawyers first? Why didn't he ask Alonso which information he was talking about? Even more, why didn't he call Alonso's bluff (or whatever) off by picking the phone and calling Mosley together with Alonso?

But most importantly, why did Dennis put himself in the hands of a person who, from what I have read here, was trying to take him down?

Interestingly, Mosley claims that he thought it all an "internal team squabble" and decided to do nothing about it.

#8032 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:04

i am not sure why you are writing in this thread.
you are just throwing mud at alonso for no reason.
you are argumenting with speculations as if they were truth.
your intention is a bad one.
cant understand that you invest your time in this thread for hateful tirade against alonso.
why?
use your time to support your favourite driver and stop bashing/hating :down:
i am sad that there are users who invest their time here for hateful tirades. :down:

I dont think this is about hate at all. Its more about correcting some severe bending of the truth on your part about what actually happened. And now we are just a bit baffled by some of your comments. Entertaining as they may be.

than show us the proof for that :stoned:

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7003042.stm

Alonso set an ultimatum before Dennis. And Dennis chose to go to Mosley instead. The reason we know this happened is that this was what initially started the unravelling of the whole saga. Also - Ron Dennis had no reason to lie about something like this. Max Mosley confirms the call as well. But - if you dont want to believe, you dont want to believe..

#8033 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:06

Dear all, may I make a suggestion? We are in the Alonso thread, ie, we have gone way off-topic with the (always fascinating) 2007 events. Robefc created a thread to specifically contain this discussion, could we all move there and ask the mods to move the relevant posts there too? :)

Edit: here it is http://forums.autosp...w...&start=1920

Edited by Fontainebleau, 02 May 2011 - 12:13.


#8034 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:07

I dont think this is about hate at all. Its more about correcting some severe bending of the truth on your part about what actually happened. And now we are just a bit baffled by some of your comments. Entertaining as they may be.


http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7003042.stm

Alonso set an ultimatum before Dennis. And Dennis chose to go to Mosley instead. The reason we know this happened is that this was what initially started the unravelling of the whole saga. Also - Ron Dennis had no reason to lie about something like this. Max Mosley confirms the call as well. But - if you dont want to believe, you dont want to believe..

again a post with bad intentions.
man stop hating.
the article you have posted is one sided -> no objectivity in it, and you still want it to be the only truth --> bad intention :down:

again: (just a suggestion) use your time to support your favourite driver, it is the best you can do.
stop bashing/hating with no reasons. those feelings are wrong, dont let those feelings dictate your thoughts :eek:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 12:10.


#8035 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:20

Well, Dennis has never been quoted explaining what happened in that meeting and how their conversation went, and neither has Alonso. But I think it is fair to say that in all likelihood the conversation was quite heated... :p


Not in the press, he is however quoted in the "Spygate" transcripts.

Nigel TOZZI
When Mr Alonso said to you, after the Hungarian Grand Prix, that he might disclose information to
the FIA, unless –

Ron DENNIS
You are wrong in your timing. The exchange between Fernando and I, with his manager present,
took place on the Sunday morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Nigel TOZZI
When he came to you, saying that he had information – as you tell us, in the course of a heated
discussion – you did not carry out any further investigation to see whether there had been any truth
in what he had said.

Ron DENNIS
That is completely out of context.

Nigel TOZZI
Answer the question, then give us the context.

Ron DENNIS
I will not answer the question.

Nigel TOZZI
Very well.

Ron DENNIS
I will give you a detailed account, so that you can put the whole issue in context.

Nigel TOZZI
I am assuming that we have it in your witness statement.

Ron DENNIS
The material placed before the World Council has not been read by all of the World Council
members. Therefore, for the Members to understand, I would like to repeat what took place. That
is entirely reasonable.
First, the relationship between Fernando and myself is extremely cold. That is an understatement.
In Fernando’s mind, there is the firm belief that our policy, whereby each driver receives equal
treatment, doe not properly reflect his status as World Champion. He bases this assertion on the
fact that his experience and knowledge and what came to him from his former team is such that he
should receive an advantage.
In that discussion, he was extremely upset with what had taken place the previous day, but nowhere
nearly as upset as I was. He said things that he subsequently and fully retracted. Within the
passage of material, he made a specific reference to e-mails from a McLaren engineer. When he Extraordinary Meeting Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile
made this statement, I said, “Stop”. I went out, brought Mr Whitmarsh him in, and Fernando said
everything again, in front of his manager. When he had finished, I turned to Martin Whitmarsh,
asking what we should do with this particular part of the conversation. Martin said we should find
Max. After Martin and Fernando left, that is exactly what he did. I recounted the entire
conversation to Max. I was upset and angry, but mainly upset. Max calmed me down. He said that
I should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando’s manager came and
said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max,
Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than
comfortable sharing them. He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I
told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior
to taking any action. I, however, on the basis that this was an engineering matter, I asked Martin whether he thought
something was amiss in that area. He told me, “We have been too thorough in talking to the
engineers; he cannot have been telling the truth.” We subsequently had a reasonable Grand Prix.
Fernando came to me. He had come in 3rd
He apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the .
heat of the moment, in which he was angry. That is how I took it. Other than following up with
Martin, the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter. What took
place between those times, I do not know. I do not know what circumstances brought that into the
public domain.

Nigel TOZZI
That is not quite right. You know what Mr Mosley said in his letter dated 6 September 2007. You
know what the explanation is: Mr Alonso apparently showed some information to someone else.

Edited by Dunder, 02 May 2011 - 12:23.


#8036 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:25

Not in the press, he is however quoted in the "Spygate" transcripts.

Nigel TOZZI
When Mr Alonso said to you, after the Hungarian Grand Prix, that he might disclose information to
the FIA, unless –

Ron DENNIS
You are wrong in your timing. The exchange between Fernando and I, with his manager present,
took place on the Sunday morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix. Extraordinary Meeting Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile
Paris, 13 September 2007

Nigel TOZZI
When he came to you, saying that he had information – as you tell us, in the course of a heated
discussion – you did not carry out any further investigation to see whether there had been any truth
in what he had said.

Ron DENNIS
That is completely out of context.

Nigel TOZZI
Answer the question, then give us the context.

Ron DENNIS
I will not answer the question.

Nigel TOZZI
Very well.

Ron DENNIS
I will give you a detailed account, so that you can put the whole issue in context.

Nigel TOZZI
I am assuming that we have it in your witness statement.

Ron DENNIS
The material placed before the World Council has not been read by all of the World Council
members. Therefore, for the Members to understand, I would like to repeat what took place. That
is entirely reasonable.
First, the relationship between Fernando and myself is extremely cold. That is an understatement.
In Fernando’s mind, there is the firm belief that our policy, whereby each driver receives equal
treatment, doe not properly reflect his status as World Champion. He bases this assertion on the
fact that his experience and knowledge and what came to him from his former team is such that he
should receive an advantage.
In that discussion, he was extremely upset with what had taken place the previous day, but nowhere
nearly as upset as I was. He said things that he subsequently and fully retracted. Within the
passage of material, he made a specific reference to e-mails from a McLaren engineer. When he Extraordinary Meeting Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile
made this statement, I said, “Stop”. I went out, brought Mr Whitmarsh him in, and Fernando said
everything again, in front of his manager. When he had finished, I turned to Martin Whitmarsh,
asking what we should do with this particular part of the conversation. Martin said we should find
Max. After Martin and Fernando left, that is exactly what he did. I recounted the entire
conversation to Max. I was upset and angry, but mainly upset. Max calmed me down. He said that
I should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando’s manager came and
said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max,
Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than
comfortable sharing them. He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I
told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior
to taking any action. I, however, on the basis that this was an engineering matter, I asked Martin whether he thought
something was amiss in that area. He told me, “We have been too thorough in talking to the
engineers; he cannot have been telling the truth.” We subsequently had a reasonable Grand Prix.
Fernando came to me. He had come in 3rd
He apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the .
heat of the moment, in which he was angry. That is how I took it. Other than following up with
Martin, the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter. What took
place between those times, I do not know. I do not know what circumstances brought that into the
public domain.

Nigel TOZZI
That is not quite right. You know what Mr Mosley said in his letter dated 6 September 2007. You
know what the explanation is: Mr Alonso apparently showed some information to someone else.



1. this is the alonso thread AND NOT "the ultimative spy-gate who said the truth thread".

2. this is just ron dennis' interpretation.
3. alonso responded also to that look here

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 12:25.


#8037 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:31

The dossier is important because it's what differenciates the regular "low-key" spionage stuff usually goes on with what McLaren did. To the drivers and probably more people inside the team, it was a case of the usual stuff, but in reality it wasn't, and some were fully aware of it. The team principal doesn't have to know, but he is still responsible for what goes on inside his company.


If you want to make the team principal 'responsible', while not knowing about it, then you can only say he was culpable for employing the actual participants. Including Fernando, obviously. So that doesn't help our view of Fernando's ethics at all.

The dossier was not in the team. That was about Honda. If the dossier with its fabled blueprints and 780 pages of infinite detail had been in the team then Fernando would not have needed to ask Pedro/Coughlan/Stepney for the wheelbase and weight distribution would he?

#8038 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:34

If you want to make the team principal 'responsible', while not knowing about it, then you can only say he was culpable for employing the actual participants. Including Fernando, obviously. So that doesn't help our view of Fernando's ethics at all.

The dossier was not in the team. That was about Honda. If the dossier with its fabled blueprints and 780 pages of infinite detail had been in the team then Fernando would not have needed to ask Pedro/Coughlan/Stepney for the wheelbase and weight distribution would he?

as pedro was and is a part of mclaren, than this dossier was in the team.
but again:
This is alonso thread and not the ultimative spy gate who said the truth thread

#8039 EdwardCullen

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:37

Oh god, i have never seen such Fanboyism ! ever before

I am a Schumy fan (hardcore) but i agree that he has flaws, he did do things like in 1997, 2006 etc
but i take that in my face and live with it , Not like what i see here! :o

Edited by EdwardCullen, 02 May 2011 - 12:38.


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#8040 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:38

Not in the press, he is however quoted in the "Spygate" transcripts.

Ron DENNIS
The material placed before the World Council has not been read by all of the World Council
members. Therefore, for the Members to understand, I would like to repeat what took place. That
is entirely reasonable.
First, the relationship between Fernando and myself is extremely cold. That is an understatement.
In Fernando’s mind, there is the firm belief that our policy, whereby each driver receives equal
treatment, doe not properly reflect his status as World Champion. He bases this assertion on the
fact that his experience and knowledge and what came to him from his former team is such that he
should receive an advantage.
In that discussion, he was extremely upset with what had taken place the previous day, but nowhere
nearly as upset as I was. He said things that he subsequently and fully retracted. Within the
passage of material, he made a specific reference to e-mails from a McLaren engineer. When he
made this statement, I said, “Stop”. I went out, brought Mr Whitmarsh him in, and Fernando said
everything again, in front of his manager. When he had finished, I turned to Martin Whitmarsh,
asking what we should do with this particular part of the conversation. Martin said we should find
Max. After Martin and Fernando left, that is exactly what he did. I recounted the entire
conversation to Max. I was upset and angry, but mainly upset. Max calmed me down. He said that
I should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando’s manager came and
said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max,
Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than
comfortable sharing them. He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I
told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior
to taking any action. I, however, on the basis that this was an engineering matter, I asked Martin whether he thought
something was amiss in that area. He told me, “We have been too thorough in talking to the
engineers; he cannot have been telling the truth.” We subsequently had a reasonable Grand Prix.
Fernando came to me. He had come in 3rd
He apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the .
heat of the moment, in which he was angry. That is how I took it. Other than following up with
Martin, the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter. What took
place between those times, I do not know. I do not know what circumstances brought that into the
public domain.

Very true, I stand corrected - I was indeed thinking of the press, but this is a more relevant quote than any press quote. :) It is interesting, however, how Dennis presents the conversation in a much more low key way than what we read in forums - at least he confirms my opinion that it was a heated one! :p

I have one question: Mosley wrote in his September 6th letter that there was just one phone call exchanged between him and Dennis, it looks a bit more confusing in this account but do we agree that Dennis is still referring to just one call between them?

Edit: I still think we should move to the other thread...

Edited by Fontainebleau, 02 May 2011 - 12:40.


#8041 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:41

I am a Schumy fan (hardcore) but i agree that he has flaws, he did do things like in 1997, 2006 etc

also every alonso fan admits that alonso has flaws.
but there is no reason that some try to write speculatively against alonso and calling it the only truth, which should be the proof for alonsos bad character.
that is bad, and also you as schumi-fan would protect schumi from unfair and biased posts.
that is good so :up:

#8042 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:42

[quote name='Dunder' date='May 2 2011, 12:20' post='4995982']
...
Fernando came to me. He had come in 3rd
He apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the .
heat of the moment, in which he was angry...

After blackmailing Ron and realizing it didn't work, he also realized he could be in big trouble. Hence the backtracking. Interesting reading.


#8043 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:44

as pedro was and is a part of mclaren, than this dossier was in the team.
but again:
This is alonso thread and not the ultimative spy gate who said the truth thread


Well the issue is generally about Alonso being an honest or a cheating sort of person isn't it? With all these historical events being brought in to argue it one way or the other.

Personally I think he's pretty honest. My argument with prty is about his ethics in comparison with the team's ethics.

Pedro did not have the dossier either. It was found in Coughlan's home, having been copied by his wife.

#8044 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:48

No sh!t Sherlock
Alonso was part of Spy gate :wave:

as you said sherlock: A PART
not exclusively about him, so this is the wrong thread :eek:

#8045 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:49

Very true, I stand corrected - I was indeed thinking of the press, but this is a more relevant quote than any press quote. :) It is interesting, however, how Dennis presents the conversation in a much more low key way than what we read in forums - at least he confirms my opinion that it was a heated one! :p

I have one question: Mosley wrote in his September 6th letter that there was just one phone call exchanged between him and Dennis, it looks a bit more confusing in this account but do we agree that Dennis is still referring to just one call between them?


I don't know TBH and at this point it is best to consider it "water under the bridge". I tend to believe that Alonso did make a threat but in the context of everything that happened that weekend it could have/should have been resolved privately. Alonso, Hamilton and Dennis (the drivers especially) came out of the Hungarian GP with their reputations tarnished.


#8046 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:50

Strange. You guys must have a secret meeting place in which you talk about Alonso's flaws. I don't see much of this happening here. What I see here is a lot of spinning.

because of your hate which makes you blind, as already said.
clean your thought from hate and you will see that we are all saying that alonso is just a human being with flaws, too, who thankfully realises his mistakes and doesnt try to make them again --> that is great :up:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 12:52.


#8047 EdwardCullen

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:52

I don't know TBH and at this point it is best to consider it "water under the bridge". I tend to believe that Alonso did make a threat but in the context of everything that happened that weekend it could have/should have been resolved privately. Alonso, Hamilton and Dennis (the drivers especially) came out of the Hungarian GP with their reputations tarnished.

why Lewis? :confused:

#8048 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:52

I don't know TBH and at this point it is best to consider it "water under the bridge". I tend to believe that Alonso did make a threat but in the context of everything that happened that weekend it could have/should have been resolved privately. Alonso, Hamilton and Dennis (the drivers especially) came out of the Hungarian GP with their reputations tarnished.

it is your right to believe it, the good thing is you are verbalising it, which includes that you might be wrong.
it is always good to read posts without hate.

#8049 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:53


...
Fernando came to me. He had come in 3rd
He apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the .
heat of the moment, in which he was angry...

After blackmailing Ron and realizing it didn't work, he also realized he could be in big trouble. Hence the backtracking. Interesting reading.

Exactly, backtracking is actually one of Alonsos trademarks. Like his ridiculous waving at Petrov after the Abu Dhabi race. When confronted by reporters he just said that Petrov defended well because he knew that saying what he really meant would not be wise. Classic Alonso behaviour.

#8050 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 13:01

why Lewis? :confused:


Because it was Lewis 'racing' to be first on track to get the additional fuel burning lap in Q3 (against the teams' instructions) that was the catalyst for everything that happened later.
The radio conversations with Dennis don't make for pretty reading either.