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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#8051 JustinCider

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 13:22

i feel sorry for you, that you are filled with so much hate.
but
i believe that you can change, for that you have just to realise which emotions are leading you to write in that way.


This is the general Fernando Alonso thread. If you want it to be an Alonso lovefest, then I suggest you create a seperate thread, which I think will be more to your tastes.

Anyway, I don't particularly care for Alonso, he seems like a spoiled, petulant child. There are many instances of his outbursts both on and off track to suggest this. Since leaving Renault at the end of 2006, every team he has been employed by has been hauled before the WMSC, and I think that is no co-incidence. I'm not saying for one moment that Alonso was the instigator of any of the events which trasnpired, but the law of averages would weigh heavily on the side of him at least knowing something, hence his nickname "Teflonso".

It doesn't take away from the fact that when he concentrates on HIS race, then he is an incredibly talented racing driver, which I appreciate, and hope that Ferrari can catch RedBull and McLaren so we can all sit back and enjoy the spectacle. His talents are wasted trundling round for minor points.

I just wish that wherever he goes, shit wouldn't follow. But it does, and you can't have everything.

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#8052 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 13:23

After the hate is finally out of this thread, here is something that may be interesting for some look here

Edited by YellowHelmet, 02 May 2011 - 13:23.


#8053 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 13:59

I hear what you are saying, but the fact is that it has been acknowledged that Alonso did not give anything to FIA until he received FIA's letter, the same letter Hamilton and De la Rosa received too. So why do you think the press keeps presenting the facts as if he did?

I wasn't aware that the press do, I thought it was more that spygate seems to be an internet forum obsession. I would imagine that the reason the press are likely to accept that version of events is that they tend to accept the WMSC transcript quoted by Dunder earlier.
Like you, I suspect the conversation wasn't too calm. Under such circumstances it can be easy to say something that one regrets later and to make threats (or promises) that one doesn't really have any intention of following through with. Hence the aphorism "act in haste, repent at leisure."

#8054 Kohque

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:01

The son is guilty of handling stolen goods. If you believe that the same is not true of Alonso then your analogy is flawed. However, my understanding of the published emails is that Alonso: was aware of Ferrari data; was aware that the data was not legitimately obtained; intended to participate in tests that would be benefiting from that data.*

True, he only needs to know if it was stolen under that law. Then I was wrong and the analogy is flawed. In that case, you will have to agree that Hamilton was also guilty (I thought neither of them were).

I have to apologize again to "Desiro": Everyone was guilty! Dude, not even the cleaner at McLaren was innocent. :clap:

I disagree. Had Alonso revealed that McLaren had a mole in Ferrari that was feeding them confidential information as soon as he became aware of it, he would not have been vilified by the media or by the F1 world. What damaged Alonso's image wasn't a hostile press, it was the timing of the revelations - immediately after he had visibly fallen out with his team.

Ufff, that one it is really hard to believe. I can't disagree more :lol:, but point taken: There is no point on speculating about things that never happened.

So it's Briatore's fault?

At fault of what? I am not incriminating anyone. That's only what I believe is the most likely thing that happened, but you are more than welcome to tell me what really went on. After so much discussions it wouldn't hurt to know exactly what really happened instead on blaming people based on beliefs.

So you think that there is no-one who dislikes both Alonso and McLaren? I can assure you there are such people. I'm sure there are also fans of McLaren who despise the individuals within the team that were knowingly involved but don't despise the team as a whole.

Well, your assurance will have to do ;) , because they are very seldom to comment on Whitmarsh, Hamilton (under handling stolen goods legislation :p) , and basically many in the team in such a explicit terms as "cheaters" and what not, but maybe I haven't been in the forum long enough. :)

#8055 YellowHelmet

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:01

This has officially become the most entertaining thread on the board. :drunk:

Are these also just Dennis quotes? Or rumours? Or hate?

http://www.fia.com/r...sion_130907.pdf

so what is that saying, that alonso has done his job, what the team gave him to do, and therefore was loyal, what is bad about that?

#8056 JustinCider

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:17

so what is that saying, that alonso has done his job, what the team gave him to do, and therefore was loyal, what is bad about that?


Plenty. Try reading the transcript, and the extracts people have taken the time to show you properly.

#8057 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:27

so what is that saying, that alonso has done his job, what the team gave him to do, and therefore was loyal, what is bad about that?

Oh my.. :eek:
I hope there are not many Alonso fans like you, cause this is scary.

#8058 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:14

True, he only needs to know if it was stolen under that law. Then I was wrong and the analogy is flawed. In that case, you will have to agree that Hamilton was also guilty (I thought neither of them were).

I have to apologize again to "Desiro": Everyone was guilty! Dude, not even the cleaner at McLaren was innocent. :clap:

I believe there is a non sequitur there. The McLaren team, as a single entity, was found guilty of cheating. The evidence in the public domain does not suggest that all or even the majority of the individuals within McLaren knew of the provenance of the Ferrari data. I would go so far as to say that the forensic examinations carried out on the FIA's behalf suggest the opposite. Whether Hamilton was one of those who knew a priori the investigation, I don't know. If he did then he was as guilty as Alonso, if not then not.


At fault of what? I am not incriminating anyone. That's only what I believe is the most likely thing that happened, but you are more than welcome to tell me what really went on. After so much discussions it wouldn't hurt to know exactly what really happened instead on blaming people based on beliefs.

Pity. I'm sure Briatore's character isn't so unsullied that blaming him for the whole spygate saga would do it any further harm.  ;)

Well, your assurance will have to do ;) , because they are very seldom to comment on Whitmarsh, Hamilton (under handling stolen goods legislation :p) , and basically many in the team in such a explicit terms as "cheaters" and what not, but maybe I haven't been in the forum long enough. :)

Perhaps I don't call Whitmarsh and Hamilton "cheaters" very often because I'm not obsessed with spygate, and Whitmarsh and Hamilton were not, to the best of my knowledge, key players in the affair.
I only got involved in this debate because I wanted to correct a flaw in your analogy when you suggested that the son was not guilty of any wrong-doing.

#8059 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:29

Alonso fans who still cant believe the black on white from the transcripts from the council hearings in 2007 should watch this. Alonso cheated. He really really did. Sorry folks. Its hard facts any which way you look at it. Alonsos very own words from the emails prove this. Now you can try to deal with it by marginalizing it somehow. But it will always be there - tainting him as a driver and a man.
He is a brilliant driver but a cheat never gets any respect from me. The same goes for Hamilton btw, after his lying to the stewards in Australia. And De la Rosa obviously. I know drivers are no saints but those are very severe and different transgressions altogether. I can appreciate their driving but being a fan of them? I don't get that.

As for Hamilton and his involvement in the spy-saga in 2007. He appears to have been kept completely out of the loop. I searched thoroughly for any proof of his involvement in every transcript, and read every word from the testimonies of personnel and drivers but found none. (My personal guess is that it was intentional from Alonsos side to keep Hamilton uninformed)


But I dont think all who debate with YH are Alonso haters. Some are just baffled at his refusal to acknowledge certain facts concerning Alonsos involvement in the spycase.


I find your posts on this issue just as extreme, but at the negative end.

A driver asks his Chief Designer for information from a leaker in another team, or fails to shoot down his Sporting Director in front of their enemy (Donnelly), and you can't understand how they have fans? Because your moral sensibilities are so highly developed? Seriously :stoned: .


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#8060 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:35

I find your posts on this issue just as extreme, but at the negative end.

A driver asks his Chief Designer for information from a leaker in another team, or fails to shoot down his Sporting Director in front of their enemy (Donnelly), and you can't understand how they have fans? Because your moral sensibilities are so highly developed? Seriously :stoned: .


Yeah me too. Don't want to take this thread totally OT but a Schumacher fan criticising Alonso fans for 'looking the other way' is a bit hypocritical.
Quite aside from on track actions, there is the small matter of the '94 Benetton!


#8061 Suntrek

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 16:59

Dick Dastardly.. Nice. To be honest he reminds me more of Muttley sometimes ;)

The reason I am posting on this spycase thing is that some people started saying was completely innocent in the spycase. Which he was clearly not when you exchange emails and texts about wanting to test the stuff in the Ferrari dossier.


Wrong again.

When the Alonso/de la Rosa e-mail exchange took place the team (Coughlan) hadn't even got the dossier yet. The Ferrari dossier was received at the end of April 2007.

Ian MILL
Let us move forward, then, to the end of April. Apparently, some 780 pages of documents were given by Mr Coughlan to Mr Stepney, in Barcelona, on 28 April. Possibly, further documents were given to him a separate occasion.



Transcript from the first WMSC hearing. (this transcript is - for some reason - missing from the FIA site)

http://www.f1complet.../view/6303/787/


The e-mails are dated end of March 2007. I'd say Alonso is a remarkable guy, but I don't think he's a claivoyant. :p No dossier existed at this point, and there's no proof whatsoever he ever knew about any dossier passing into Coughlan's hands.

And now at least I have had enough of 2007. I bow goodbye for the time being. :wave:



#8062 prty

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 17:04

Wrong again.

When the Alonso/de la Rosa e-mail exchange took place the team (Coughlan) hadn't even got the dossier yet. The Ferrari dossier was received at the end of April 2007.



Transcript from the first WMSC hearing. (this transcript is - for some reason - missing from the FIA site)

http://www.f1complet.../view/6303/787/


The e-mails are dated end of March 2007. I'd say Alonso is a remarkable guy, but I don't think he's a claivoyant. :p No dossier existed at this point, and there's no proof whatsoever he ever knew about any dossier passing into Coughlan's hands.


Thank you for giving some facts for a change.

And now at least I have had enough of 2007. I bow goodbye for the time being. :wave:


Indeed.

Edited by prty, 02 May 2011 - 17:04.


#8063 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 17:56

Wrong again.

When the Alonso/de la Rosa e-mail exchange took place the team (Coughlan) hadn't even got the dossier yet. The Ferrari dossier was received at the end of April 2007.


Transcript from the first WMSC hearing. (this transcript is - for some reason - missing from the FIA site)

http://www.f1complet.../view/6303/787/


The e-mails are dated end of March 2007. I'd say Alonso is a remarkable guy, but I don't think he's a claivoyant. :p No dossier existed at this point, and there's no proof whatsoever he ever knew about any dossier passing into Coughlan's hands.

And now at least I have had enough of 2007. I bow goodbye for the time being. :wave:

No dossier but there were correspondance Coughley and Stepney!! Come on! The emails state talking about when Kimi was pitting in Australia, testing of gasses in tyres, Ferraris wheelbase and more. Did that come from thin air?? No, Alonso and De la Rosa are no clairvoyants because they had access to info through Coughley-Stepney. Read here: http://www.formula1....email-evidence/

The FIA report then went on divulge evidence that the two were also discussing and sharing Ferrari secrets regarding flexible wing components, aero balance, tyre gas and braking systems.


Thank you for giving some facts for a change.

You will find that these are facts even if they dont fit into your agenda.

#8064 fabr68

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:13

No dossier but there were correspondance Coughley and Stepney!! Come on! The emails state talking about when Kimi was pitting in Australia, testing of gasses in tyres, Ferraris wheelbase and more. Did that come from thin air?? No, Alonso and De la Rosa are no clairvoyants because they had access to info through Coughley-Stepney. Read here: http://www.formula1....email-evidence/




You will find that these are facts even if they dont fit into your agenda.


:lol:

Some people here think Alonso deserves some kind of capital punishment for receiving Ferrari's stolen ip via email by Mclaren personel.

Obvously there was nothing Alonso was going to do with detailed information about pit strategy, tire gas compounds or wheelbase dimensions. It is not like Alonso commanded Mclaren pit wall, or was sneaking at night into Mclaren's garage to inflate his tires with different gas mixtures and modify his car wheelbase with a couple of wrenches. Obviously it was Mclaren development and test engineering doing all the Ferrari data implementationn. Look into the details of the Spygate case and you will find it was honorable test driver and current Mclaren and Pirelli chief tester De la Rosa executing the company-wide cheating. I do not see shitstorms of anger into such driver thread as seen here. I guess it is an easy way to have a scapegoat in Alonso to divert the blame on the cheating operation happening during Spygate at Mclaren.

Bad, bad Alonso for receiving emails from Mclaren on the Ferrari data they stole. :lol

Sure it as Alonso and Alonso one and only at Mclaren aware of Ferrari stolen ip and since Alonso is degreed design engineer, wind tunnel operator, carbon fiber fabricator and licenced mechanic, he went into a secret rogue operation inside Mclaren to implement all Ferraris datas.


#8065 puxanando

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:21

I do not see shitstorms of anger into such driver thread as seen here. I guess it is an easy way to have a scapegoat in Alonso to divert the blame on the cheating operation happening during Spygate at Mclaren.

:up:

Poor, poor Ron Dennis..... :rotfl:

#8066 JustinCider

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:27

:lol:

Some people here think Alonso deserves some kind of capital punishment for receiving Ferrari's stolen ip via email by Mclaren personel.

Obvously there was nothing Alonso was going to do with detailed information about pit strategy, tire gas compounds or wheelbase dimensions. It is not like Alonso commanded Mclaren pit wall, or was sneaking at night into Mclaren's garage to inflate his tires with different gas mixtures and modify his car wheelbase with a couple of wrenches. Obviously it was Mclaren development and test engineering doing all the Ferrari data implementationn. Look into the details of the Spygate case and you will find it was honorable test driver and current Mclaren and Pirelli chief tester De la Rosa executing the company-wide cheating. I do not see shitstorms of anger into such driver thread as seen here. I guess it is an easy way to have a scapegoat in Alonso to divert the blame on the cheating operation happening during Spygate at Mclaren.

Bad, bad Alonso for receiving emails from Mclaren on the Ferrari data they stole. :lol

Sure it as Alonso and Alonso one and only at Mclaren aware of Ferrari stolen ip and since Alonso is degreed design engineer, wind tunnel operator, carbon fiber fabricator and licenced mechanic, he went into a secret rogue operation inside Mclaren to implement all Ferraris datas.


Wrong. Alonso and DeLaRosa exchanged emails, regarding tyre gas compound. Alonso said that they should definately try the new tyre gas out. It has already been referenced previously in this thread.

Also, as much as I hate to use this man's word as evidence, this YouTube clip backs up the claim regarding tyre gas.


#8067 fabr68

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:33

Wrong. Alonso and DeLaRosa exchanged emails, regarding tyre gas compound. Alonso said that they should definately try the new tyre gas out. It has already been referenced previously in this thread.

Also, as much as I hate to use this man's word as evidence, this YouTube clip backs up the claim regarding tyre gas.


Please tell me. Who bought the gasses to make the mixture and who inflated the "identically equal machinery" Mclaren cars?

:lol:

Yes. Alonso should have responded "screw you cheaters" when he received that email. Instead he waited a little bit. :lol:

Edited by fabr68, 02 May 2011 - 19:34.


#8068 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:49

:lol:

Some people here think Alonso deserves some kind of capital punishment for receiving Ferrari's stolen ip via email by Mclaren personel.

Obvously there was nothing Alonso was going to do with detailed information about pit strategy, tire gas compounds or wheelbase dimensions. It is not like Alonso commanded Mclaren pit wall, or was sneaking at night into Mclaren's garage to inflate his tires with different gas mixtures and modify his car wheelbase with a couple of wrenches. Obviously it was Mclaren development and test engineering doing all the Ferrari data implementationn. Look into the details of the Spygate case and you will find it was honorable test driver and current Mclaren and Pirelli chief tester De la Rosa executing the company-wide cheating. I do not see shitstorms of anger into such driver thread as seen here. I guess it is an easy way to have a scapegoat in Alonso to divert the blame on the cheating operation happening during Spygate at Mclaren.

Bad, bad Alonso for receiving emails from Mclaren on the Ferrari data they stole. :lol

Sure it as Alonso and Alonso one and only at Mclaren aware of Ferrari stolen ip and since Alonso is degreed design engineer, wind tunnel operator, carbon fiber fabricator and licenced mechanic, he went into a secret rogue operation inside Mclaren to implement all Ferraris datas.

I dont know what you are on about here. But to be clear I quoted this earlier and it is talking about Alonso and de la Rosa:

The FIA report then went on divulge evidence that the two (FA and DLR) were also discussing and sharing Ferrari secrets regarding flexible wing components, aero balance, tyre gas and braking systems

They did far more than just passively receive emails. They discussed in lenghts on what to try and implement and how. And bear in mind that this is just what is recorded on emails.
Furthermore:

Nevertheless, it was still enough to incriminate the parties, as the report states: “There is very clear evidence that both drivers (FA and DLR) knew that they were receiving unauthorised and confidential Ferrari information. To the WMSC's knowledge, no effort was taken to report or stem this flow”.

http://www.formula1....email-evidence/

It makes no difference if they implemented the data or not. It was enough that the WMSC deemed Alonso and de la Rosa guilty of involvement and having knowledge of something they shouldnt have. And they didnt do what they should have done (alert the FIA).

#8069 JustinCider

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:54

Please tell me. Who bought the gasses to make the mixture and who inflated the "identically equal machinery" Mclaren cars?

:lol:

Yes. Alonso should have responded "screw you cheaters" when he received that email. Instead he waited a little bit. :lol:


If you cannot comprehend the simple fact that Alonso came into knowledge of a tyre gas Ferrari was using through underhand means and then suggested they use the gas knowing where the source of the information came from, then you are in serious denial. There is not only FIA transcripts, but video evidence which back up the event.

You say Alonso "waited a little bit". It didn't stop him using the stolen information once that pause had elapsed though, did it ?

I'll not comment upon your McLaren reference as it's an obvious attempt at a thread derail.

Edited by JustinCider, 02 May 2011 - 19:56.


#8070 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 19:55

Instead he waited a little bit. :lol:

Yeah, you could say that. "A little bit" :drunk: Understatement of the year.
When he felt he could conveniently use what he knew to try and pressure Dennis into giving him number one treatment. Not before. What a guy.

If he had been such a standup guy he should have gone to Mosley directly. But he had to try and pull a fast one on his team boss first. That is nothing but corrupt.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 02 May 2011 - 19:57.


#8071 cardin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:00

:up:
That's the way to do it. Alonso is controversial though and maybe it would be good to have a thread titled something like "Alonso controversies" where they could be discussed without each and every post leading to war. I agree that ideally this thread should mainly be a place for people who like Alonso, but currently they share this area with those who does not like him but can not ignore him. As it is, no group has more right of deciding the rules than the other.


That's a really strange idea but I tell you what; if you or anybody else start a thread exclusivelly to love, admire and worship the guy, I promise I'll only post there when I have good things to say about him.


#8072 igoru

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:14

2030: Alonso President of FIA!

#8073 Bloggsworth

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:20

Good to see that The Real FIA and Continuity FIA are carrying on the fight, only another 795 years to catch up with The Troubles...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 02 May 2011 - 22:12.


#8074 Nitropower

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:22

The engineers try a different gas on tires and the chief engineer acknowledges nothing.

The chief engineer supervises the testing of a different gas on tires and the technical director acknowledges nothing.

The technical director supervises the testing of a different gas on tires and the team boss as well known as Mr. Control acknoledges nothing.

Welcome to the McLaren fan logic.

#8075 fabr68

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:23

If you cannot comprehend the simple fact that Alonso came into knowledge of a tyre gas Ferrari was using through underhand means and then suggested they use the gas knowing where the source of the information came from, then you are in serious denial. There is not only FIA transcripts, but video evidence which back up the event.

You say Alonso "waited a little bit". It didn't stop him using the stolen information once that pause had elapsed though, did it ?

I'll not comment upon your McLaren reference as it's an obvious attempt at a thread derail.


Yes. Conveniently ignore Mclaren's involvement in Spygate when talking about Alonso.

The fact is Alonso's involvement was limited to say "ok...lets try it". Why was Mclaren distributing stolen information on the first place? Why were the engineers and test drivers implementing such information? That is the bigger question and implication of the scandal. But no, let's pound on Alonso for suggesting the use of car improvements Mclaren brough to his attention. I am sure most drivers out the would hate the idea of suggesting such horrible things that would tarnish their pure honesty and moral behavior.

I don't think it is such a horrible thing. If anything the one who was the most affected by these suggestions from Alonso was Ferrari and obviosly they have long forgiven him.

One thing is to suggest the implementation of other teams ideas and another thing is to actually get the detailed information and being analyzed by engineers and test drivers.

I wish Alonso would have told Mclaren to dump the MP4-22 off a cliff. Because obviously they were obbeying all his requests in 2007 :lol:

#8076 JustinCider

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:29

Yes. Conveniently ignore Mclaren's involvement in Spygate when talking about Alonso.

The fact is Alonso's involvement was limited to say "ok...lets try it". Why was Mclaren distributing stolen information on the first place? Why were the engineers and test drivers implementing such information? That is the bigger question and implication of the scandal. But no, let's pound on Alonso for suggesting the use of car improvements Mclaren brough to his attention. I am sure most drivers out the would hate the idea of suggesting such horrible things that would tarnish their pure honesty and moral behavior.

I don't think it is such a horrible thing. If anything the one who was the most affected by these suggestions from Alonso was Ferrari and obviosly they have long forgiven him.

One thing is to suggest the implementation of other teams ideas and another thing is to actually get the detailed information and being analyzed by engineers and test drivers.

I wish Alonso would have told Mclaren to dump the MP4-22 off a cliff. Because obviously they were obbeying all his requests in 2007 :lol:


We're talking about Fernando Alonso's career and his involvement in Spygate, not McLaren's (directly - there's a seperate thread for that, I'm sure), or any other driver for that matter.

Do you honestly believe that Alonso was nothing more than a poor victim of McLaren's underhand tactics in this whole saga ?

Edited by JustinCider, 02 May 2011 - 20:33.


#8077 metz

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:40

Can we maybe call time here, and re-set the clock to 2011.
I would like to discuss his current situation.
This other crap has been done to death, on both sides, and I'm sure most of us are sick of it.

In the here and now, Alonso must sense some frustrations that the team is not progressing.
Ferrari is certainly farther behind than they were at this point last year.
This is where a motivational speach by him would be useful for the team... :smoking:

#8078 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:41

Yes. Conveniently ignore Mclaren's involvement in Spygate when talking about Alonso.

The fact is Alonso's involvement was limited to say "ok...lets try it". Why was Mclaren distributing stolen information on the first place? Why were the engineers and test drivers implementing such information? That is the bigger question and implication of the scandal. But no, let's pound on Alonso for suggesting the use of car improvements Mclaren brough to his attention. I am sure most drivers out the would hate the idea of suggesting such horrible things that would tarnish their pure honesty and moral behavior.

I don't think it is such a horrible thing. If anything the one who was the most affected by these suggestions from Alonso was Ferrari and obviosly they have long forgiven him.

One thing is to suggest the implementation of other teams ideas and another thing is to actually get the detailed information and being analyzed by engineers and test drivers.

I wish Alonso would have told Mclaren to dump the MP4-22 off a cliff. Because obviously they were obbeying all his requests in 2007 :lol:

No one is giving McLaren a free pass here but this is the Alonso thread. As for McLaren, they should have been completely thrown out of the championship that year if you ask me. Drivers and all.
At least we have come to the recognition that Alonso did want to use the data that was received from Stepney. Most Alonso fans if not all dont think that is so bad. And a lot of people find it pretty severe. I guess its always gonna be that. But its the complete denial of any involvement from some people here that riles me up.

#8079 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:43

Do you honestly believe that Alonso was nothing more than a poor victim of McLaren's underhand tactics in this whole saga ?


Try another one: do you honestly think it would have made any difference to the degree of McLarens infringement if there had been another driver in Alonso's place?

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#8080 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:45

We're talking about Fernando Alonso's career and his involvement in Spygate, not McLaren's (directly - there's a seperate thread for that, I'm sure), or any other driver for that matter.

Do you honestly believe that Alonso was nothing more than a poor victim of McLaren's underhand tactics in this whole saga ?

No, he was part of said McLaren tactics; but he was not an independent element acting on his own (or together with just De la Rosa and Coughlan) within the team.

What puzzles me is that people are shocked about what Alonso and McLaren did - these things have been around forever, are you really saying that until Spygate came out you did not know that teams spy on each other? :confused:



#8081 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:45

But its the complete denial of any involvement from some people here that riles me up.


Seems like you're riled up by your very own imagination, then. Nobody is denying the existance of the emails, as far as I can see.

Edited by as65p, 02 May 2011 - 20:46.


#8082 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:48

Try another one: do you honestly think it would have made any difference to the degree of McLarens infringement if there had been another driver in Alonso's place?


Not at all.

One for you though. Would the second hearing have happened if there had been another driver in Alonso's place?

Edited by Dunder, 02 May 2011 - 20:49.


#8083 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:49

No, he was part of said McLaren tactics; but he was not an independent element acting on his own (or together with just De la Rosa and Coughlan) within the team.

What puzzles me is that people are shocked about what Alonso and McLaren did - these things have been around forever, are you really saying that until Spygate came out you did not know that teams spy on each other? :confused:


People are [pretending to be] shocked because it's convenient to [pretend to be] for the greater goal. Which of course is to expose the eternal evilness of Alonso to all the world...

:D  ;)

#8084 fabr68

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:52

We're talking about Fernando Alonso's career and his involvement in Spygate, not McLaren's (directly - there's a seperate thread for that, I'm sure), or any other driver for that matter.

Do you honestly believe that Alonso was nothing more than a poor victim of McLaren's underhand tactics in this whole saga ?


I am not saying Alonso is a victim or a villain. All I am saying is to take Alonso's involvement in Spygate at face value as the FIA evidence shows. Not as the PR Spygate Mastermind the media has painted him to be. Because every fan and non-fan knows Alonso does not carry the skills or credentials to implement all Ferrari IP data was alleghedly used on the Mclaren cars. The FIA knew this and that is why it punished Alonso and Mclaren for their involvement accordingly.

I expect every driver on the grid pushing their team to implement the competitors silver bullets(tire gas, flexi wings, etc) . However there is a difference between suggesting and implementing. And no one is pounding on implementing as much as they pound on suggesting. And this seems very bias and unfair.

#8085 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 20:52

Not at all.

One for you though. Would the second hearing have happened if there had been another driver in Alonso's place?


Not any more than there wouldn't have been a 2nd hearing with a teamboss who would have been able to contain himself (instead of inviting a certain Max Mosley to join the party).



#8086 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 21:08

Seems like you're riled up by your very own imagination, then. Nobody is denying the existance of the emails, as far as I can see.

I said denial of involvement, not denial of existance of emails. Go a few pages back and read the posts of YellowHelmet and you will see what I mean.

#8087 kensaundm31

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 21:13

Can we maybe call time here, and re-set the clock to 2011.
I would like to discuss his current situation.
This other crap has been done to death, on both sides, and I'm sure most of us are sick of it.

In the here and now, Alonso must sense some frustrations that the team is not progressing.
Ferrari is certainly farther behind than they were at this point last year.
This is where a motivational speach by him would be useful for the team... :smoking:


A valiant attempt, but i guess you might as well try to put the moon in a sock. :wave:

#8088 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 21:28

Not any more than there wouldn't have been a 2nd hearing with a teamboss who would have been able to contain himself (instead of inviting a certain Max Mosley to join the party).


I wouldn't be so sure about that TBH.
Tom Bower's book claims that Alonso informed Briatore about the Ferrari information. Ferrari counsel at that second hearing also seemed to think so.

quote
Nigel TOZZI
That is not quite right. You know what Mr Mosley said in his letter dated 6 September 2007. You
know what the explanation is: Mr Alonso apparently showed some information to someone else.
unquote




#8089 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 21:44

I wouldn't be so sure about that TBH.
Tom Bower's book claims that Alonso informed Briatore about the Ferrari information. Ferrari counsel at that second hearing also seemed to think so.

quote
Nigel TOZZI
That is not quite right. You know what Mr Mosley said in his letter dated 6 September 2007. You
know what the explanation is: Mr Alonso apparently showed some information to someone else.
unquote


Did you read the review of that book here on Autosport? :D

But okay, lets say Mr. Bower got that one right, accidentically. Still, if memory serves, the ball got rolling only after the Hungary weekend, so even if Mosley already knew something earlier through Briatore (who was supposedly told by Alonso), he did nothing with that info up to Ron Dennis infamous double-phonecall on race morning in Hungary.

#8090 Fontainebleau

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 21:52

A valiant attempt, but i guess you might as well try to put the moon in a sock. :wave:

:lol: I liked that image!

#8091 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 22:11

The ultimate Hamilton v Alonso thread

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=142138

Ecclestone book reveals animosity with Dennis that cost McLaren

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=143496

Piquet Jr, Singapore 2008 - "I think [Alonso] never got involved"

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=143748

Now you guys, for some reason, like these big 'general' threads which means you can't really complain if posters choose to put negative stuff in here as well as positive. However, where there is a thread more suited to a particular discussion, you should move it there, please, so that this thread can be used to mop up stuff people don't want to start specific threads about.

Spygate is simply too big and too wound up in the characters of other people and organisations that it doesn't belong here. Please take it elsewhere.

#8092 Dunder

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 22:13

Did you read the review of that book here on Autosport? :D


I did actually and could only concur that the book is riddled with little errors in terms of on track action. Those are an annoyance for an F1 geek (like me) but I still found it to be good read from an author/journalist who has a reputation for not pulling punches.

But okay, lets say Mr. Bower got that one right, accidentically. Still, if memory serves, the ball got rolling only after the Hungary weekend, so even if Mosley already knew something earlier through Briatore (who was supposedly told by Alonso), he did nothing with that info up to Ron Dennis infamous double-phonecall on race morning in Hungary.


You are probably right. Dennis should have handled the situation differently but his were nonetheless a reaction to what had happened in the preceding 24hrs. With any other driver (going back to the original question) it is a situation that would never have happened.


#8093 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 22:23

You are probably right. Dennis should have handled the situation differently but his were nonetheless a reaction to what had happened in the preceding 24hrs.


Well, yeah. Goes for the other two main protagonists too, of course.

With any other driver (going back to the original question) it is a situation that would never have happened.


I wouldn't phrase it so categorically (you probably didn't mean to), but generally I'd agree. There don't appear many other drivers as strong-willed or stubborn (for good and bad, as nicely shown in this episode) as Alonso.

#8094 AlanWake

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 22:38

He looked set to dominate the sport after 2 WDCs in a row. Since 2007, he has seemed to be "at the wrong place at the wrong time". In 2007, he should have won the WDC with the car he had (even Alonso admits it!) but he didn't show the best of himself at certain races and unluckily for him he was paired against Lewis, the best rookie in F1 History, and lost the WDC by 2 points at the end. In 2008, he was overdriving the car in the first half of the season and made some unforced mistakes while in the second half of the season, he drove really well IMO. In 2009, the car was really bad the whole season and I think he made the best he could. In 2010, he was again overdriving the car and making more mistakes he should in the first half of the season while in the second half of the season, in general, he drove brilliantly.
In 2011, it seemed he and Vettel were going to fight for the WDC after winter testing but the season started with a bad surprise for him: the car wasn't as good as Ferrari and him expected and only after the first 3 races he finds himself now +40 points behind Vettel! I wonder what will happen from now on...

So yes, without a doubt, a driver like Fernando must be feel a bit frustrated right now after 4 years -possibly 5 after 2011- without a title.

And If I am right in F1 History (please, correct me if I am wrong) only Niki Lauda won the title again after more than 5 years without winning a WDC.

#8095 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 23:03

He looked set to dominate the sport after 2 WDCs in a row. Since 2007, he has seemed to be "at the wrong place at the wrong time". In 2007, he should have won the WDC with the car he had (even Alonso admits it!) but he didn't show the best of himself at certain races and unluckily for him he was paired against Lewis, the best rookie in F1 History, and lost the WDC by 2 points at the end. In 2008, he was overdriving the car in the first half of the season and made some unforced mistakes while in the second half of the season, he drove really well IMO. In 2009, the car was really bad the whole season and I think he made the best he could. In 2010, he was again overdriving the car and making more mistakes he should in the first half of the season while in the second half of the season, in general, he drove brilliantly.
In 2011, it seemed he and Vettel were going to fight for the WDC after winter testing but the season started with a bad surprise for him: the car wasn't as good as Ferrari and him expected and only after the first 3 races he finds himself now +40 points behind Vettel! I wonder what will happen from now on...

So yes, without a doubt, a driver like Fernando must be feel a bit frustrated right now after 4 years -possibly 5 after 2011- without a title.

And If I am right in F1 History (please, correct me if I am wrong) only Niki Lauda won the title again after more than 5 years without winning a WDC.


Quality post :up: .

I your place I think I would hold onto ATM-Andy's opinion that the Ferrari might only have a very fixable aero imbalance problem; that makes sense given the testing form. Fernando is still a contender this year I think. 40 points' deficit isn't much when there's a total of 475 available.

#8096 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:14

He looked set to dominate the sport after 2 WDCs in a row. Since 2007, he has seemed to be "at the wrong place at the wrong time". In 2007, he should have won the WDC with the car he had (even Alonso admits it!) but he didn't show the best of himself at certain races and unluckily for him he was paired against Lewis, the best rookie in F1 History, and lost the WDC by 2 points at the end. In 2008, he was overdriving the car in the first half of the season and made some unforced mistakes while in the second half of the season, he drove really well IMO. In 2009, the car was really bad the whole season and I think he made the best he could. In 2010, he was again overdriving the car and making more mistakes he should in the first half of the season while in the second half of the season, in general, he drove brilliantly.
In 2011, it seemed he and Vettel were going to fight for the WDC after winter testing but the season started with a bad surprise for him: the car wasn't as good as Ferrari and him expected and only after the first 3 races he finds himself now +40 points behind Vettel! I wonder what will happen from now on...

So yes, without a doubt, a driver like Fernando must be feel a bit frustrated right now after 4 years -possibly 5 after 2011- without a title.

And If I am right in F1 History (please, correct me if I am wrong) only Niki Lauda won the title again after more than 5 years without winning a WDC.

Good post, man :up:
I would actually be more than surprised if Alonso didnt win at least one more championship before he retires. He is in Ferrari after all. And if the Lauda statistic is correct then that would be another record he could hold.
He might even take it this year as undersquare mentions. Except McLaren and RedBull are pushing like mad dogs at the moment. One to catch up and the other to keep their advantage. So it might be a tall order.

#8097 Kohque

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:11

I believe there is a non sequitur there. The McLaren team, as a single entity, was found guilty of cheating. The evidence in the public domain does not suggest that all or even the majority of the individuals within McLaren knew of the provenance of the Ferrari data. I would go so far as to say that the forensic examinations carried out on the FIA's behalf suggest the opposite. Whether Hamilton was one of those who knew a priori the investigation, I don't know. If he did then he was as guilty as Alonso, if not then not.



Pity. I'm sure Briatore's character isn't so unsullied that blaming him for the whole spygate saga would do it any further harm. ;)


Perhaps I don't call Whitmarsh and Hamilton "cheaters" very often because I'm not obsessed with spygate, and Whitmarsh and Hamilton were not, to the best of my knowledge, key players in the affair.
I only got involved in this debate because I wanted to correct a flaw in your analogy when you suggested that the son was not guilty of any wrong-doing.


Well, I get a slight different picture, but I will be the last one to start pissing now on McLaren's staff. I think Whitmarsh is a top-noch guy and I actually like Hamilton too.

Regarding the analogy, happy to stand corrected :)

#8098 Man of the race

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:25

He looked set to dominate the sport after 2 WDCs in a row. Since 2007, he has seemed to be "at the wrong place at the wrong time". In 2007, he should have won the WDC with the car he had (even Alonso admits it!) but he didn't show the best of himself at certain races and unluckily for him he was paired against Lewis, the best rookie in F1 History, and lost the WDC by 2 points at the end. In 2008, he was overdriving the car in the first half of the season and made some unforced mistakes while in the second half of the season, he drove really well IMO. In 2009, the car was really bad the whole season and I think he made the best he could. In 2010, he was again overdriving the car and making more mistakes he should in the first half of the season while in the second half of the season, in general, he drove brilliantly.
In 2011, it seemed he and Vettel were going to fight for the WDC after winter testing but the season started with a bad surprise for him: the car wasn't as good as Ferrari and him expected and only after the first 3 races he finds himself now +40 points behind Vettel! I wonder what will happen from now on...

So yes, without a doubt, a driver like Fernando must be feel a bit frustrated right now after 4 years -possibly 5 after 2011- without a title.

And If I am right in F1 History (please, correct me if I am wrong) only Niki Lauda won the title again after more than 5 years without winning a WDC.


That's a great, perfomance-based view. :up:

To be a WDC, any driver needs to drive brilliantly for the whole year.

#8099 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:30

Finally the hate is out of this thread :up:

Just three days to turkey:
oh man, let us hope that ferrari is (also) finally up there.

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#8100 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:37

It's true, if he hadn't've lost it at Mclaren in 2007, I think he'd probably be a four time WDC by now and challenging Vettel in the first couple of races this year.