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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#8101 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:50

It's true, if he hadn't've lost it at Mclaren in 2007, I think he'd probably be a four time WDC by now and challenging Vettel in the first couple of races this year.

I dunno, I don't think Fernando and Hammy could ever have coexisted, they're just a pair of alpha males, you can only have one in a pack the other has to be driven off. There's always a hierarchy, isn't there, and if neither is prepared to be No2 then that's the only way to resolve it. Same in any animal pack. Fernando was just unlucky that Lewis came along, really.

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#8102 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:52

Fernando was just unlucky that Lewis came along, really.

lewis alone was not the problem, but we already discussed that.

#8103 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:56

I dunno, I don't think Fernando and Hammy could ever have coexisted, they're just a pair of alpha males, you can only have one in a pack the other has to be driven off. There's always a hierarchy, isn't there, and if neither is prepared to be No2 then that's the only way to resolve it. Same in any animal pack. Fernando was just unlucky that Lewis came along, really.


Maybe, but if Alonso had've beaten Hamilton then I'm not sure he'd be the driver he is today. You've got to remember that Hamilton finished in the WDC standings above the two time champion and driver who many were predicting would be as dominant as Schumacher was before him. That must've given him a heck of a lot of confidence and self-belief that he could beat anyone on the grid. We're all a product of our experience and I think the battle Hamilton had with Alonso and coming out on top in 2007 (for whatever reason!) was the making of Hamilton.

#8104 puxanando

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:07

lewis alone was not the problem, but we already discussed that.

:drunk: The real problem was Ron Denis and his team politics.

#8105 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:09

The ultimate Hamilton v Alonso thread

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=142138


#8106 as65p

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:10

It's true, if he hadn't've lost it at Mclaren in 2007, I think he'd probably be a four time WDC by now and challenging Vettel in the first couple of races this year.


You think Alonso winning 2 more WDCs in the past would have prevented the calibration errors on Ferraris windtunnel this season? That's an, uhm... interesting concept. :drunk:

#8107 Fontainebleau

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:10

It's true, if he hadn't've lost it at Mclaren in 2007, I think he'd probably be a four time WDC by now and challenging Vettel in the first couple of races this year.

That does not change much his situation, to be honest. What I mean is that even with the moves to Renault and Ferrari he was very, very close to being a 3-times WDC by now, and could have been challenging Vettel in the first races this year. We simply don't know how things would have turned out to be (the 2008 WDC was too close for Massa and Ferrari to call it a certainty; I agree with the 2007 WDC), and I don't agree that staying at McLaren would have guaranteed Alonso better results, not even with hindsight.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 03 May 2011 - 10:13.


#8108 F1EC

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:14

I dunno, I don't think Fernando and Hammy could ever have coexisted, they're just a pair of alpha males, you can only have one in a pack the other has to be driven off. There's always a hierarchy, isn't there, and if neither is prepared to be No2 then that's the only way to resolve it. Same in any animal pack. Fernando was just unlucky that Lewis came along, really.


I absolutely disagree with your statement. There is nothing to back up your theory that Hamilton can't co-exist with another good driver (or alpha, to use your phrase). Or that you can't have two alphas in a team. However it does seem as if Alonso finds it hard to deal with anyone or anything that challenges his (real or misguided) sense of supremacy. As others have said, he has flaws that make it hard for him to focus on his own performance - he seems obsessed with other people, and his position relative to them. If he doesn't get top billing he'll use any means to get it, whether that means blackmailing his own team, or insisting that his team mate lets him past. I'm glad McLaren stood up to him. I'm sorry that Renault and Ferrari were weak enough to put up with his behaviour - I think it's tarnished the image of both teams and made them look like pussies.

#8109 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:20

Maybe, but if Alonso had've beaten Hamilton then I'm not sure he'd be the driver he is today. You've got to remember that Hamilton finished in the WDC standings above the two time champion and driver who many were predicting would be as dominant as Schumacher was before him. That must've given him a heck of a lot of confidence and self-belief that he could beat anyone on the grid. We're all a product of our experience and I think the battle Hamilton had with Alonso and coming out on top in 2007 (for whatever reason!) was the making of Hamilton.

hamilton and alonso scored both the same points with the old point system, with alonso being 10 times in front of ham in the races and ham 7 times in front of alonso in races.
with this and last years point system, alonso would have been in front of ham, but that is just a side note.

back to topic:
does anyone know if there is going to be again a chat with fa on ferraris homepage?

Edited by YellowHelmet, 03 May 2011 - 10:20.


#8110 2ms

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:25

I think Alonso is Domenicali's pet/the one who favors him. When he's gone at end of season we'll see how much NOT pussies other people are at Ferrari if Alonso continues to drive like emotionally unstable rookie 2nd season in a row. I think the tolerance has been stretched to the limit now with the mistakes continuing now into second season. I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw another ballsy move from Ferrari to get whichever driver they thought was best in F1 by whatever means in the world necessary (like in 2007). The Santander/Domenicali/Alonso arrangment has become a big egg on their face and they usually react to embarrassment very vigorously.

Edited by 2ms, 03 May 2011 - 10:28.


#8111 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:26

That does not change much his situation, to be honest. What I mean is that even with the moves to Renault and Ferrari he was very, very close to being a 3-times WDC by now, and could have been challenging Vettel in the first races this year. We simply don't know how things would have turned out to be (the 2008 WDC was too close for Massa and Ferrari to call it a certainty; I agree with the 2007 WDC), and I don't agree that staying at McLaren would have guaranteed Alonso better results, not even with hindsight.


Well, I think it's obvious that if he was in a mclaren in 2008 he would've done better than he did in a renault that year and I'm almost certain he'd've been in with a shout. But in truth, there's no way of really knowing. Personally, I think that unless Ferrari can pull something out of the bag in Turkey/barcelona then his chances in 2011 are pretty slim as well.

Does anyone think that he'd be interested in taking Webber's seat at Red Bull?

Edited by bonjon1979a, 03 May 2011 - 10:27.


#8112 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:44

Well, I think it's obvious that if he was in a mclaren in 2008 he would've done better than he did in a renault that year and I'm almost certain he'd've been in with a shout. But in truth, there's no way of really knowing. Personally, I think that unless Ferrari can pull something out of the bag in Turkey/barcelona then his chances in 2011 are pretty slim as well.

Does anyone think that he'd be interested in taking Webber's seat at Red Bull?

Webber perhaps swopping places with Alonso? Interesting thought but it aint gonna happen. Alonso is in for the long haul at Ferrari. Come rain or shine.
Webber could perhaps become his teammate though.

#8113 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:47

hamilton and alonso scored both the same points with the old point system, with alonso being 10 times in front of ham in the races and ham 7 times in front of alonso in races.
with this and last years point system, alonso would have been in front of ham, but that is just a side note.

back to topic:
does anyone know if there is going to be again a chat with fa on ferraris homepage?


You'll notice I said finished in the WDC standings above him. I did so to try to avoid all this 'who beat who' nonsense that always happens whenever you try to have a grown up discussion about these two drivers...the WDC standings are fact, that is all.

#8114 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:49

Webber perhaps swopping places with Alonso? Interesting thought but it aint gonna happen. Alonso is in for the long haul at Ferrari. Come rain or shine.
Webber could perhaps become his teammate though.


When does his contract run too? If he doesn't win in the next two years I think it will severely test his patience.

#8115 puxanando

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:51

When does his contract run too? If he doesn't win in the next two years I think it will severely test his patience.

Alonso never will give up...and perhaps he will come back stronger than never in the few next races. I believe and hope it!! :)

#8116 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:52

Alonso never will give up...and perhaps he will come back stronger than never in the few next races. I believe and hope it!! :)


I hope so too. It'll make it a more interesting championship.

#8117 Flamini

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:53

I think Alonso is Domenicali's pet/the one who favors him. When he's gone at end of season we'll see how much NOT pussies other people are at Ferrari if Alonso continues to drive like emotionally unstable rookie 2nd season in a row. I think the tolerance has been stretched to the limit now with the mistakes continuing now into second season. I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw another ballsy move from Ferrari to get whichever driver they thought was best in F1 by whatever means in the world necessary (like in 2007). The Santander/Domenicali/Alonso arrangment has become a big egg on their face and they usually react to embarrassment very vigorously.


Don't kid yourself, we all know who will be the next Ferrari boss after Domenicali.

#8118 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:03

I absolutely disagree with your statement. There is nothing to back up your theory that Hamilton can't co-exist with another good driver (or alpha, to use your phrase). Or that you can't have two alphas in a team. However it does seem as if Alonso finds it hard to deal with anyone or anything that challenges his (real or misguided) sense of supremacy. As others have said, he has flaws that make it hard for him to focus on his own performance - he seems obsessed with other people, and his position relative to them. If he doesn't get top billing he'll use any means to get it, whether that means blackmailing his own team, or insisting that his team mate lets him past. I'm glad McLaren stood up to him. I'm sorry that Renault and Ferrari were weak enough to put up with his behaviour - I think it's tarnished the image of both teams and made them look like pussies.


Well these days I have a bit of sympathy for Alonso.

I think both of them will not accept being beaten. Lewis, and Fernando too these days I would say, will put up with it from time to time. But over a period, that's different, each of them will ramp up the drive to win, up and up as much as is necessary, ad infinitum. That's the difference between a good driver and an alpha male.

With two alphas together the aggression will just continue to escalate, I don't think either of them would just settle for being the loser, long term.

Lewis has never been in Fernando's 07 position, as far as he knows he just has to work harder, get stronger and so on, and he will always win. That's his mindset and so far it's held up.

Fernando had the same mindset but it did not hold up. He started 07 as the superstar, then after 4 races he was behind in the points, to a rookie, and he stayed there the whole season. A rookie that quite a few people had been worrying he might crush damagingly. So he externalised the problem as racing drivers tend to do. You have to have some sympathy IMO. Though I have to agree he should shut up about McLaren now, that would be bigger than still trying to maintain it was all Ron's fault somehow.

Anyway he's a perfect fit for Ferrari, that seems the best for all sides as far as I can see.

#8119 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:09

Maybe, but if Alonso had've beaten Hamilton then I'm not sure he'd be the driver he is today. You've got to remember that Hamilton finished in the WDC standings above the two time champion and driver who many were predicting would be as dominant as Schumacher was before him. That must've given him a heck of a lot of confidence and self-belief that he could beat anyone on the grid. We're all a product of our experience and I think the battle Hamilton had with Alonso and coming out on top in 2007 (for whatever reason!) was the making of Hamilton.


Well we're drifting OT but I don't think the IF is realistic. It only works if Lewis is slower or less confident and he just wasn't, nor ever would be. You only have to watch X Factor to see the limitations of mere self-belief :lol:

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#8120 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:19

Well we're drifting OT but I don't think the IF is realistic. It only works if Lewis is slower or less confident and he just wasn't, nor ever would be. You only have to watch X Factor to see the limitations of mere self-belief :lol:


Ah, X-factor the mecca for the delusional.

#8121 EdwardCullen

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:23

It's true, if he hadn't've lost it at Mclaren in 2007, I think he'd probably be a four time WDC by now and challenging Vettel in the first couple of races this year.

LOL, If Osama had not been a terrorist he would have lived longer! :lol:
There are no "IF"s and "BUT"s in life mate :)

#8122 EdwardCullen

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:25

I think Alonso is Domenicali's pet/the one who favors him. When he's gone at end of season we'll see how much NOT pussies other people are at Ferrari if Alonso continues to drive like emotionally unstable rookie 2nd season in a row. I think the tolerance has been stretched to the limit now with the mistakes continuing now into second season. I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw another ballsy move from Ferrari to get whichever driver they thought was best in F1 by whatever means in the world necessary (like in 2007). The Santander/Domenicali/Alonso arrangment has become a big egg on their face and they usually react to embarrassment very vigorously.

+1 :up:

#8123 Watkins74

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:29

I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw another ballsy move from Ferrari to get whichever driver they thought was best in F1 by whatever means in the world necessary (like in 2009).

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#8124 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:32

LOL, If Osama had not been a terrorist he would have lived longer! :lol:
There are no "IF"s and "BUT"s in life mate :)


Interestingly, Osama would probably lived a lot longer if he wasn't a terrorist as he had a vast family fortune and would've had the best medical treatment available to him but he was so he didn't.  ;)

I think this will be a defining year for Alonso - in less something happens at Ferrari fast, this year will slip away from them. Last year was slightly different - Alonso won the first race so had those points in the bag, everyone was taking points off each other and Red Bull were busy committing hari Kari. This year things are slightly different, Vettel's already stretching his legs and Ferrari look slightly hobbled.

#8125 Fontainebleau

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:35

I think Alonso is Domenicali's pet/the one who favors him. When he's gone at end of season we'll see how much NOT pussies other people are at Ferrari if Alonso continues to drive like emotionally unstable rookie 2nd season in a row. I think the tolerance has been stretched to the limit now with the mistakes continuing now into second season. I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw another ballsy move from Ferrari to get whichever driver they thought was best in F1 by whatever means in the world necessary (like in 2007). The Santander/Domenicali/Alonso arrangment has become a big egg on their face and they usually react to embarrassment very vigorously.

1.- Please, people, if you are going to criticise Alonso fine, but with statements like this one you lose a lot of credibility. :well: To answer your question, if by driving as an "emotionally unstable rookie" Alonso gets Ferrari to the point they were in 2010, ie, only a strategic mistake prevented them from winning WDC from a superior car (even taking into account reliability issues), I am sure that Ferrari will be delighted. Also, may I remind you who was chosen by team directors and fellow drivers as the best driver in 2010? I have the feeling that more than one team would have given a lot of money to have the "emotionally unstable rookie"-like driver in their car.

2.- Could you explain what basis do you have for your theory? How is their relationship with Santander embarrasing Ferrari? As for Alonso, please see comment 1. Domenicali may be facing a tougher picture if he is considered responsible for the Abu Dhabi mistake or the technical issues with the F150.

Oh, and one more comment: in 2007 Ferrari went after who they thought was the best available driver. Seeing how that move ended three years later, I wonder if the would want to see history repeat itself...

Edited by Fontainebleau, 03 May 2011 - 11:38.


#8126 2ms

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:49

1.- Please, people, if you are going to criticise Alonso fine, but with statements like this one you lose a lot of credibility. :well: To answer your question, if by driving as an "emotionally unstable rookie" Alonso gets Ferrari to the point they were in 2010, ie, only a strategic mistake prevented them from winning WDC from a superior car (even taking into account reliability issues), I am sure that Ferrari will be delighted. Also, may I remind you who was chosen by team directors and fellow drivers as the best driver in 2010? I have the feeling that more than one team would have given a lot of money to have the "emotionally unstable rookie"-like driver in their car.

2.- Could you explain what basis do you have for your theory? How is their relationship with Santander embarrasing Ferrari? As for Alonso, please see comment 1. Domenicali may be facing a tougher picture if he is considered responsible for the Abu Dhabi mistake or the technical issues with the F150.

Oh, and one more comment: in 2007 Ferrari went after who they thought was the best available driver. Seeing how that move ended three years later, I wonder if the would want to see history repeat itself...


Vettel lost over 70 pnts to equipment failure in car that had perfect reliability for his teammate. This was a one-in-lifetime opportunity and to miss it is unacceptable. This year their competition looks like it has excellent reliability and that it is not going to be possible to rely on gifts.

If Ferrari wants to win WDC they need WDC driving. Last year Alonso did not do WDC driving and so far this year isn't looking a whole lot better. It's really quite a simple thing.

Ferrari needs WDC driving and they aren't going to win WDC until they get it. They will get it (and have shown that are the opposite of pussies about going about this in the past).

Edited by 2ms, 03 May 2011 - 12:50.


#8127 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:57

If Ferrari wants to win WDC they need WDC driving. Last year Alonso did not do WDC driving and so far this year isn't looking a whole lot better. It's really quite a simple thing.

Ferrari needs WDC driving and they aren't going to win WDC until they get it. They will get it (and have shown that are the opposite of pussies about going about this in the past).

are you just trolling in this thread?
the team principles selected him as the best driver last year, coz he drove superbly (even with some very few mistakes) and you call it not WDC driving. -> interesting.
that just shows how your perception is far away from the reality.




#8128 Kohque

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:20

Vettel lost over 70 pnts to equipment failure in car that had perfect reliability for his teammate. This was a one-in-lifetime opportunity and to miss it is unacceptable. This year their competition looks like it has excellent reliability and that it is not going to be possible to rely on gifts.

If Ferrari wants to win WDC they need WDC driving. Last year Alonso did not do WDC driving and so far this year isn't looking a whole lot better. It's really quite a simple thing.

Ferrari needs WDC driving and they aren't going to win WDC until they get it. They will get it (and have shown that are the opposite of pussies about going about this in the past).


Well, that's not quite how I remember it. I think Vettel had a lot of reliability issues, true. But then he also had some, let's call it "encounters", with his teammate and with Button. Overall, I think he did quite a few unforced errors that cost him a lot of points.

And regarding Alonso, the first part of the year with Ferrari is where we saw most of the mistakes, which is pretty normal considering he was still learning about the car (Monaco being where the "learning curve" really cost him :lol: ). He was able reach the top because he did a very good second part of the season while Vettel had a closer fight with Webber that may have forced him to take some risks, which in turn led to some mistakes. All that and of course the reliability issues.

How can you call unacceptable that someone with the 3rd car was fighting for the championship in the last race? :confused: In any case, it would be a big failure if neither Vettel nor Webber had won last year with that spaceship of a car.

#8129 puxanando

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:25

Last year Alonso did not do WDC driving and so far this year isn't looking a whole lot better. It's really quite a simple thing.

:rotfl: It's a joke or what?

Alonso, what a second part of the season. Love him or hate him, you cannot fault his driving and determination.

No driver was hotter than Alonso over the second half of the season; he amassed 154 points in the final nine races, nearly 20 more than any other driver. Perhaps that momentum will transfer to this season.


:rolleyes: so he did no WDC driving??

#8130 2ms

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:28

are you just trolling in this thread?
the team principles selected him as the best driver last year, coz he drove superbly (even with some very few mistakes) and you call it not WDC driving. -> interesting.
that just shows how your perception is far away from the reality.


Is this media's "team principles selected" thing becoming Alonso's biggest claim to fame now? He got 7th in it in 2009 and similarly poor results many years prior. Do you really think he was a substantially inferior driver to Kobayashi before 2010? That's what your poll says according to you.

#8131 Supersleeper

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:30

If Ferrari wants to win WDC they need WDC driving. Last year Alonso did not do WDC driving and so far this year isn't looking a whole lot better. It's really quite a simple thing.

Fernando was exemplary in the last half of the season ( at least). He didn't have car fast enough to win, but did. He said all he needed to do was to finish on the podium, which he did and he came incredibly close to being the WDC. That qualifies as WDC driving in anyone's book. He never gives in, he posesses a self confidence that is intimidating and he's one the thing twice already. To have so little respect for the way he drove last season is astounding.

Edited by Supersleeper, 03 May 2011 - 13:31.


#8132 2ms

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:31

:rotfl: It's a joke or what?



:rolleyes: so he did no WDC driving??


I think he had more races of bad driving last year than I have seen of a driver in season that they won WDC. This is why I do not consider it "WDC level driving". Feel free to tell me the last time you saw someone win the WDC with so many screwed up races as Alonso made last year.

Edited by 2ms, 03 May 2011 - 13:32.


#8133 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 13:35

I think he had more races of bad driving last year than I have seen of a driver in season that they won WDC.

how long are you watching f1 and count plz his mistakes.


#8134 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:03

Fernando was exemplary in the last half of the season ( at least).


Too bad that points earned in first half of season also counts, perhaps you should contact FIA and ask if they could - from now on - just use the points that are gathered in the first/second half of season (depending which one was better for Fernando) and forget the points which were earned in the half were Fernando didnt shine?


#8135 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:08

Too bad that points earned in first half of season also counts, perhaps you should contact FIA and ask if they could - from now on - just use the points that are gathered in the first/second half of season (depending which one was better for Fernando) and forget the points which were earned in the half were Fernando didnt shine?

who said that alonso didnt shine in the first half of the season?
without the fias-(bad)involvment he would have led the championship already in the first half of the season.
as already said, alonso was last year superb, even with some little mistakes he was always up there with the others, although having a worser car. respect

#8136 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:09

... He didn't have car fast enough to win, but did....


Erm, yes... the car was clearly not going to win without Fernandos talent. :up: cough - Germany - cough. :rolleyes:

#8137 puxanando

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:14

this was what Marko said:

“There are two people that we fear for this world title,” the 67-year-old Austrian told APA news agency. “They are Fernando Alonso, because he is at his absolute peak, and Lewis Hamilton. What the others are doing bothers us not so much."


:up: Alonso.......whatever tell the haters

#8138 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:16

You think Alonso winning 2 more WDCs in the past would have prevented the calibration errors on Ferraris windtunnel this season? That's an, uhm... interesting concept. :drunk:


It's alright aspy don't get your knickers in a twist, I was suggesting that may've been the case if he won in 2007 and stayed at mclaren. He couldve been their most successful driver since Prost but that wasn't how things worked out for a multitude of reasons.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 03 May 2011 - 14:18.


#8139 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:16

Erm, yes... the car was clearly not going to win without Fernandos talent. :up: cough - Germany - cough. :rolleyes:

the only race, whre ferrari was capable to win with both drivers.
all other wins and other great results were achieved with alonsos great driving (comparing to massa).

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#8140 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:17

who said that alonso didnt shine in the first half of the season?
without the fias-(bad)involvment he would have led the championship already in the first half of the season.
as already said, alonso was last year superb, even with some little mistakes he was always up there with the others, although having a worser car. respect


He wasnt although beating better car with his worse car on track, now was he? He beat Vettels Red Bull which was parked on some safe-area, yes - but so did every other car which finished the race, including lotus, Hispania and Virgin drivers (given that they finished that particular race were Vettel DNFd due to mech.fail.) but in what race did Alonso beat a properly working RedBull of Vettel by his sheer talent? I dont seem to remember a one single time he did that, do you?



#8141 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:26

the only race, whre ferrari was capable to win with both drivers.
all other wins and other great results were achieved with alonsos great driving (comparing to massa).


As Massa, and Domenicali for that matter, have said billion times: Massa had serious problems with tyres last year. It was a miracle he won a race (well, Fernando took the trophy, but...) while he struggled so much with car/tyres, but lets hope he can return to his normal competitivenes this year (which is slightly below Kimi or Fernando in race pace, but at his best an equal at qual pace). So lets not get over our heads celebrating Fernandos unbelievable pace last year when compared to Massa, as Massa really did underperform last year by every measurement you can think of.

Edited by yr, 03 May 2011 - 14:31.


#8142 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:28

Fixed

I think you broke it. Who won in 2007 and who won in 2009? :rolleyes:

#8143 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:37

He wasnt although beating better car with his worse car on track, now was he? He beat Vettels Red Bull which was parked on some safe-area, yes - but so did every other car which finished the race, including lotus, Hispania and Virgin drivers (given that they finished that particular race were Vettel DNFd due to mech.fail.) but in what race did Alonso beat a properly working RedBull of Vettel by his sheer talent? I dont seem to remember a one single time he did that, do you?

you are talking about the first half of the season or about the whole season?
.)no driver wins just through sheer talent, that is an illusion, there are always some factors which have to correlate to make that happen.
but
in first half he's beaten webber on some occasions, and also the mclaren drivers.
regarding vettel in the first half of the season china can be counted as this (although dt and all in all 5 pit stops for alonso)

#8144 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:38

As Massa, and Domenicali for that matter, have said billion times: Massa had serious problems with tyres last year. It was a miracle he won a race (well, Fernando took the trophy, but...) while he struggled so much with car/tyres, but lets hope he can return to his normal competitivenes this year (which is slightly below Kimi or Fernando in race pace, but at his best an equal at qual pace). So lets not get over our heads celebrating Fernandos unbelievable pace last year when compared to Massa, as Massa really did underperform last year by every measurement you can think of.

so massas underperformance, how you call it, should belittle alonsos achievements? :stoned:

#8145 as65p

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 14:39

I think you broke it. Who won in 2007 and who won in 2009? :rolleyes:


Now, who brought up the icecream man again? :drunk:

#8146 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 15:04

you are talking about the first half of the season or about the whole season?
.)no driver wins just through sheer talent, that is an illusion, there are always some factors which have to correlate to make that happen.
but
in first half he's beaten webber on some occasions, and also the mclaren drivers.
regarding vettel in the first half of the season china can be counted as this (although dt and all in all 5 pit stops for alonso)


Of course there are always factors, that´s obvious. But what is unclear to me, why so many Alonso fans try to keep up a myth that he can win faster cars with his sheer talent?




#8147 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 15:07

Of course there are always factors, that´s obvious. But what is unclear to me, why so many Alonso fans try to keep up a myth that he can win faster cars with his sheer talent?

1. that is just the talk that is taken from the medias, who like to write about sensations.
2. no difference to other drivers fans.


#8148 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 15:08

so massas underperformance, how you call it, should belittle alonsos achievements? :stoned:


Of course not, just like Webbers underperformance this year hasnt belittled Vettels achievments, right? Vettel dominates our sport right now, not his car, just look at what Webber has done with same car. :)

Edited by yr, 03 May 2011 - 15:11.


#8149 YellowHelmet

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 15:09

Of course not, just like Webbers underperformance this hasnt belittled Vettels achievments, right? Vettel dominates our sport right now, not his car, just look at what Webber has done with same car. :)

vettel is not dominating our sport, look at china,
he dominated the first two races, and also just in qualy.

#8150 yr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 15:12

1. that is just the talk that is taken from the medias, who like to write about sensations.
2. no difference to other drivers fans.


Ok :up: