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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#8251 yr

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 15:31

that is not right.
it is possible if rb makes a (strategic) mistake.


You mean that Red Bulls race-pace is so much better that they couldnt be challenged by driving? I have to disagree, I would say RB has an advantage in qual pace, but in race they can be beaten by superior driver or by better tactic. So far, Hamilton and Mclaren beat the RBs by better tactic once, nobody has yet to beat them by superior driving, that doesnt mean it wont happen. All we need is better driver than Vettel or an unusally poor performance by Vettel for that to happen... don´t hold yor breath though.


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#8252 yr

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 15:34

:p Give Alonso a good car and he will destroy Vettels title run!


Thats what they all need: "a good car". Give it to Hamilton or Rosberg or Kubica (if he was racing) and they will destroy anybodies else title run.

#8253 Atreiu

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 15:39

Alonso had a fine race (actually entire weekend) yesterday, but it didn't seem heroic and doesn't figure ammong those I consider his best. He was just his usual competent self and Webber had to work for 2nd rather than for the win. The F150 Italy has demonstrated pace since Sepang, things just weren't hooking together for a well deserved podium.

I just don't know whether I want it to be awkwardly freezing or scorching at Barcelona for the sake of a more competitive race in which SV doesn't run away with it.

Edited by Atreiu, 09 May 2011 - 15:40.


#8254 Flamini

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 15:46

Yeah, if you finnish 3rd in a race, you are most likely to be the only one who had troubled 1st and 2nd place drivers, no? With Ferraris race-pace which was about equal to Red Bull, did you expect anything less? Just a slight reminder: in previous race, Hamilton didnt just made Red Bulls work for it... he actually beat both of them. So it´s actually possible to beat those Red Bulls... if the driver is up to it. :wave:



How you can compare Hamilton battle against Vettel in China with Alonso battle against Vettel in Turkey? Let's analyze this:

1. Hamilton had in China the second fastest qualifying car. Alonso had in Turkey the fourth fastest qualifying car. Despite this, Hamilton started from P3 and Alonso from P5.

Advantage Alonso.

2. Vettel messed up start in China, Vettel didn't mess up start in Turkey.

Advantage Alonso.

3. Vettel strategy in China was inferior to Hamilton strategy (Red Bull admitted that). Vettel strategy in Turkey was the same as Alonso strategy.

Advantage Alonso.


So: Hamilton had the better qualy car than Alonso (P3/P4 car instead of P7/P8 car), Vettel did a mistake and Vettel had a wrong strategy.

Of course Hamilton drove great race (without a doubt!) but how you can compare these two battles?

Edited by Flamini, 09 May 2011 - 15:49.


#8255 Bruce

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 15:56

Yeah, if you finnish 3rd in a race, you are most likely to be the only one who had troubled 1st and 2nd place drivers, no? With Ferraris race-pace which was about equal to Red Bull, did you expect anything less? Just a slight reminder: in previous race, Hamilton didnt just made Red Bulls work for it... he actually beat both of them. So it´s actually possible to beat those Red Bulls... if the driver is up to it. :wave:


It seems to me, yr, that you're basing the accomplishment on the result. Alonso finished third; ergo; that is what the car was capable of. You could argue that Lewis winning in China was the same - he finsihed first; ergo, the car was capable of beating the red Bulls. What has Lewis been doing the other races than? Tch tch tch - he has a race winning car and he finshes fourth....

Now - I'm not making that argument - I think Lewis did a brilliant job in China and fully deserved the win which was against the odds - but what makes his win an achievment is it's context - the same applies to Alonso.

#8256 yr

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 16:09

How you can compare Hamilton battle against Vettel in China with Alonso battle against Vettel in Turkey? Let's analyze this:

1. Hamilton had in China the second fastest qualifying car. Alonso had in Turkey the fourth fastest qualifying car. Despite this, Hamilton started from P3 and Alonso from P5.

Advantage Alonso.

2. Vettel messed up start in China, Vettel didn't mess up start in Turkey.

Advantage Alonso.

3. Vettel strategy in China was inferior to Hamilton strategy (Red Bull admitted that). Vettel strategy in Turkey was the same as Alonso strategy.

Advantage Alonso.


So: Hamilton had the better qualy car than Alonso (P3/P4 car instead of P7/P8 car), Vettel did a mistake and Vettel had a wrong strategy.

Of course Hamilton drove great race (without a doubt!) but how you can compare these two battles?


There is always factors when even a fraction slower car wins the faster car. Just like you listed above. Otherwise Vettel would have won all races last year and would win all races this year - save for races where he makes a rare mistake.

But as your example above showed, when multiply factors pile up you can lose even to a bit slower car even if you are fastest driver out there. That is exactly why I am so puzzled why so many people on this board are thrilled when someone in slower car beats guy in faster car when it is all due to circumstances, rather than driver x driving his slower car faster than driver y driving his superior car. Thats amazing actually. Given how much an casual member here must have followed this sport, they still seem to fall every time to that same trap over and over again. Unbelieveable.



#8257 yr

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 16:18

It seems to me, yr, that you're basing the accomplishment on the result. Alonso finished third; ergo; that is what the car was capable of. You could argue that Lewis winning in China was the same - he finsihed first; ergo, the car was capable of beating the red Bulls. What has Lewis been doing the other races than? Tch tch tch - he has a race winning car and he finshes fourth....

Now - I'm not making that argument - I think Lewis did a brilliant job in China and fully deserved the win which was against the odds - but what makes his win an achievment is it's context - the same applies to Alonso.


Ok, let me put it like this: if Ferrari wasnt never going to reach a podium without fantastic drive by Fernando, where do you think it was supposed to end up? Lets say, Hamilton, Räikkönen or some other was driving Alonos car in Turkey, where would they have ended? 4th?5th?6th? or even further behind? Was that really one of those "wow! nobody else could have done that" - races for you?

OT is it just me or does my post includes too many questionmarks :confused:

Edited by yr, 09 May 2011 - 16:20.


#8258 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 16:36

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#8259 PoleMan

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 16:57

Ok, let me put it like this: if Ferrari wasnt never going to reach a podium without fantastic drive by Fernando, where do you think it was supposed to end up? Lets say, Hamilton, Räikkönen or some other was driving Alonos car in Turkey, where would they have ended? 4th?5th?6th? or even further behind? Was that really one of those "wow! nobody else could have done that" - races for you?

OT is it just me or does my post includes too many questionmarks :confused:


It think it really comes down to expectations. One of the big storylines so far this season is how Ferrari -- despite looking pretty strong in pre-season testing -- has "missed the plot." No one was expecting Ferrari to be on the podium this race, so Fernando's ability to surpass expectations by fighting for the second step of the podium is what makes the achievement noteworthy. Same as Hamilton beating Vettel. It wasn't expected, but was a pleasant surprise.

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#8260 Kohque

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 17:02

Ok, let me put it like this: if Ferrari wasnt never going to reach a podium without fantastic drive by Fernando, where do you think it was supposed to end up? Lets say, Hamilton, Räikkönen or some other was driving Alonos car in Turkey, where would they have ended? 4th?5th?6th? or even further behind? Was that really one of those "wow! nobody else could have done that" - races for you?

OT is it just me or does my post includes too many questionmarks :confused:

I don't understand why the scrutiny for such a stuff :) . Dude, he did a good race. People is happy. What would you expect our reaction to be? Just go to Vettel's thread or Hamilton's and tell me they are any different.

He did a very good quali (in fact, all of them have been), then he had a slightly slow start (but thankfully he started in the clean side) and drove as well as he has done since the first race, save clipping his front wing while trying to pass Hamilton. After all the effort he finally gets a podium. Is it that important if we think he did fantastically well?

If you think his driving was average, it's totally cool dude. And I hope you're right, coz if the car gets the pace is lacking during qualifying and he keeps doing "average" races, Ferrari is going to win this year :cool:

#8261 e34

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 17:29

Ok, let me put it like this: if Ferrari wasnt never going to reach a podium without fantastic drive by Fernando, where do you think it was supposed to end up? Lets say, Hamilton, Räikkönen or some other was driving Alonos car in Turkey, where would they have ended? 4th?5th?6th? or even further behind? Was that really one of those "wow! nobody else could have done that" - races for you?

OT is it just me or does my post includes too many questionmarks :confused:


Considering that you put forward Raikkonen as reference, and using Massa as yardstick, and the last year and a half Massa and Raikkonen raced together as benchmark, you could be excused for thinking that Raikkonen would have ended 12th or worse.

If you have any other better yardstick to guess where he would have ended, please let me know.

#8262 Atic Atac

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 17:39

Gene thinks that this is one of the top races for Alonso driving a ferrari, alongside with singapore and Monza.

#8263 Bruce

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 18:04

Ok, let me put it like this: if Ferrari wasnt never going to reach a podium without fantastic drive by Fernando, where do you think it was supposed to end up? Lets say, Hamilton, Räikkönen or some other was driving Alonos car in Turkey, where would they have ended? 4th?5th?6th? or even further behind? Was that really one of those "wow! nobody else could have done that" - races for you?


But yr, Hamilton, Raikkonen and some other driver weren't in Fernando's car yesterday. That's the point. He was.

In order to be called "fantastic" does a result have to be something that no one else could have achieved? Let's look at it this way. In China, Lewis had a brilliant result. Do you think that on a good day, with the same car and the same circumstances that Alonso could have achieved the same thing? Or Raikkonen? or Hakkinen? or Senna? I suspect that they all could have. Does this in any way diminish Hamiltons achievement? Not in my mind it doesn't.

I said that Fernando's result was "fantastic". Given it is Ferrari's first podium of the year, in a year where the car has underperformed expectations, and given that qualifying didn't point to any incipient changes, I don't think that's an outrageous statement.

I didn't call his drive "the drive of a lifetime", "the greatest drive ever", "beyond belief" or "historic". In the context, I did think it was fantastic, though. I of course respect your right to disagree.

#8264 Anssi

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 18:15

It was a good drive by Alonso yesterday but as I see it it was like a normal performance from top tier drivers - including the driver he replaced at Ferrari. I really think this putting down drivers other than your favourite has gotten way out of hands. There are also some who are fans of the same driver as I am who post rubbish more often than not and I wouldn't be terribly sad if they would tone it down a little. I can agree with you that what Ferrari did with That Certain Driver was disgusting and I can't respect them for that but it's not a good reason for you to bash Alonso's performances like you have been doing. The guy hasn't done what he is expected to do at Ferrari yet but he's still done very well.

#8265 AlanWake

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 18:23

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Vettel is a funny guy. I like him but I prefer Alonso :)

#8266 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 20:27

..... but I prefer Alonso :)

:up: me too

I prefer the Alonso-torrero over the 'Fettel-finger'! :cool:

#8267 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 20:43

:) can I have a link please?!


http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/13328551.stm

You may not be able to watch the video, but you can see the text at the bottom;

Ferrari's Fernando Alonso is voted the best driver at the Turkish GP by the BBC Sport Online audience, ahead of Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel and Sauber's Kamui Kobayashi.

Available to UK users only.

Interestingly, none of the top three are British, which I hope dispels some of the regular myths which get brought up.

#8268 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 21:43

Available to UK users only

:cry:

But thanks you a lot!!

We are all european...why can't see it?? ):

Edited by puxanando, 09 May 2011 - 21:45.


#8269 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:06

Interestingly, none of the top three are British, which I hope dispels some of the regular myths which get brought up.

What British driver would have had a realistic shot at 'driver of the race' anyways? :well:

Not sure this proves anything at all. The British fans and media being biased towards British drivers isn't a myth.

#8270 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:15

That was a fan vote, not media. And if it was as biased as you claim, there would be plenty enough room for Hamilton in the top three. Bias can forgive many errors, as you well know.

#8271 robefc

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:17

:cry:

But thanks you a lot!!

We are all european...why can't see it?? ):


Because you don't pay for it :p

#8272 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:24

Because you don't pay for it :p

:rotfl: ahhh....ok.....

Available to UK users only


:rolleyes: and why don't they put: only for pay-users??

Edited by puxanando, 09 May 2011 - 22:25.


#8273 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:24

That was a fan vote, not media. And if it was as biased as you claim, there would be plenty enough room for Hamilton in the top three. Bias can forgive many errors, as you well know.

How biased did I claim they were? I did not give any specific references to the amount of bias, I just said they were biased, and nobody with a functional brain could honestly disagree with that. British fans and media are noticeable quite 'patriotic' about their own, and thats ok, but lets not deny that this bias exists.

And I cant imagine anybody but a pretty hardcore fanboy would ever give 'driver of the day' of Turkey to Lewis over Alonso.



#8274 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:32

How biased did I claim they were? I did not give any specific references to the amount of bias, I just said they were biased, and nobody with a functional brain could honestly disagree with that. British fans and media are noticeable quite 'patriotic' about their own, and thats ok, but lets not deny that this bias exists.

And I cant imagine anybody but a pretty hardcore fanboy would ever give 'driver of the day' of Turkey to Lewis over Alonso.

:lol: and I said that the result dispels 'some' of the myths that get brought up, and you decided what they were, yeah?

Do go easy on those sweeping 'British fans' statements... Damn. You can probably work out what my point was now.

#8275 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:42

:lol: and I said that the result dispels 'some' of the myths that get brought up, and you decided what they were, yeah?

Do go easy on those sweeping 'British fans' statements... Damn. You can probably work out what my point was now.

No, I cant. As far as I can tell, there's only one myth, not a multitude of em. That being that British fans and media are biased towards their own, which I think is pretty obvious. Its not even a generalization, really, unless you think saying that Italians are biased towards Ferrari is a generalization. Of course there's a minority that this isn't the case for, but overall, its a pretty accurate blanket statement.

I dont know what you're trying to prove at all, to be honest. That British people have brains and can see that what Alonso did was far more impressive than what Lewis acheived?

#8276 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:53

I dont know what you're trying to prove at all, to be honest. That British people have brains and can see that what Alonso did was far more impressive than what Lewis acheived?

And yet without understanding, you nevertheless proclaimed that I was wrong.

Your generalisation (yes, it is) is a pretty shoddy one. Damning an entire nation of racing fans. Well done you.

You're not embarrassed to repeat it, so I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this.

#8277 puxanando

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:56

That British people have brains and can see that what Alonso did was far more impressive than what Lewis acheived?

:up:

nothing else to add..... :cool:

#8278 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 22:58

And yet without understanding, you nevertheless proclaimed that I was wrong.

Your generalisation (yes, it is) is a pretty shoddy one. Damning an entire nation of racing fans. Well done you.

You're not embarrassed to repeat it, so I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this.

I'm not 'damning' anyone. You make it sound like its a horrible insult, when I said 'its ok' for them to feel that way. I was quite biased towards the US World Cup team last year. If someone else recognized that and pointed it out, I would not take offense. And if you really want to argue that British fans aren't biased towards British drivers, then I dont know what to say. Its an obvious observation. Had Lewis done something similar to Alonso in Turkey, I'm quite sure he'd get the higher percentage of votes.

#8279 as65p

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 23:09

:rotfl: ahhh....ok.....


:rolleyes: and why don't they put: only for pay-users??


It's not intended that way. Residents of the UK pay some kind of general TV fee (as in most other countries) and that entitles them to watch the BBC online (and automatically excludes everyone outside the UK).

Though there are ways... just google a bit!

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#8280 as65p

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 23:17

And if you really want to argue that British fans aren't biased towards British drivers, then I dont know what to say. Its an obvious observation. Had Lewis done something similar to Alonso in Turkey, I'm quite sure he'd get the higher percentage of votes.


The point is obviously that if british viewers were biased to a noteworthy degree, they would chose Hamilton or Button as driver of the race regardless of how brilliant Alonso (or any other non-british driver) had performed. But that didn't happen here, instead they recognized Alonsos performance and voted accordingly.

So while they might be biased (like all other nations really) in this case it wasn't enough to affect the voting result. Which is good for them, obviously.

I think that's all there is to it.

#8281 HPT

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 03:50

Alonso drove a fantastic race, but I saw how Vettel always had that something extra just when he needed it. It seems like he was merely managing the gap.

A little off-topic but relevant here since it was in this thread, I'm liking Autosport forums a lot more than PF-1 now. Buttoneer, being a mod, seems to have a sense of humor and lets others argue with him without abusing his authority. I really don't see that with the PF-1 mods. They seem incapable of seeing the lighter side of things and I'd imagine Sean would have gotten some kind of a warning or even banned for daring to speak up to them.

PS. Not saying you did anything wrong Sean, just pointing out the flaw in PF-1 mods' moderating style.

Anyways, hope Barcelona's upgrades are everything they said it would be!

#8282 YellowHelmet

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:08

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/13328551.stm

You may not be able to watch the video, but you can see the text at the bottom;

Interestingly, none of the top three are British, which I hope dispels some of the regular myths which get brought up.

always good to see that the way some people are represented in the media doesnt really affect the thinking of fans :up:
so maybe the fans are much more critical against media-made images than i thought. :up:

i am not watching british f1 coverage, but maybe some of you can tell me, whether their approach towarsd alonso has maybe changed to a better?

#8283 nbhb

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:09

Alonso drove a fantastic race, but I saw how Vettel always had that something extra just when he needed it. It seems like he was merely managing the gap.

A little off-topic but relevant here since it was in this thread, I'm liking Autosport forums a lot more than PF-1 now. Buttoneer, being a mod, seems to have a sense of humor and lets others argue with him without abusing his authority. I really don't see that with the PF-1 mods. They seem incapable of seeing the lighter side of things and I'd imagine Sean would have gotten some kind of a warning or even banned for daring to speak up to them.

PS. Not saying you did anything wrong Sean, just pointing out the flaw in PF-1 mods' moderating style.

Anyways, hope Barcelona's upgrades are everything they said it would be!


Off topic: Buttoneer has a lot of sense of humor and indeed lets others argue with him, but I find this normal. But it is less than a half right here and is himself a fan. British media and fans are biased, although less than Germans , Spanish and Italians. That's because in England Formula1 has more a culture than in the other countries.

Anyways Brundle said many times in the BBC coverage that Alonso was very good. No wonder was voted.

Edited by nbhb, 10 May 2011 - 09:13.


#8284 Atic Atac

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:16

i am not watching british f1 coverage, but maybe some of you can tell me, whether their approach towarsd alonso has maybe changed to a better?


In the last race they certainly praised Alonso´s work a few times.

#8285 sosidge

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:40

In the last race they certainly praised Alonso´s work a few times.


Martin Brundle is a clear Alonso fan, he makes no bones about it. He is also a Vettel fan.

When the political implications of not saying Lewis was the best were at their peak, Brundle kept his respect for Alonso a bit more quiet.

If the British public are going to be influenced by anybody in motor racing, they choose well to be influenced by Martin Brundle.

#8286 puxanando

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 10:06

Alonso might be 52 points - more than two wins - behind Vettel right now, but he has 15 races, or possibly 16 depending on what happens to Bahrain, to recover it and it would be a fool who wrote off now such a formidable fighter. After last year's experience, Red Bull certainly won't be making that mistake.

"Ferrari," said team principal Christian Horner, "they're back. They pushed us very hard today with Fernando."

Andrew Benson (BBC)

#8287 kurski

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 10:21

Alonso - Briatore ’not Mourinho’ as Ferrari rumours swirl

Fernando Alonso would like to see Flavio Briatore back in formula one, but he denies his arrival at Ferrari "would be like Mou in Madrid".

The ’Mou’ reference is to Jose Mourinho, the highly respected Portuguese football coach who arrived at Real Madrid last year and is regarded as one of the best managers in history.

In Turkey last weekend, rumours that Briatore - currently banned from formula one for the ’crashgate’ scandal - could be heading to Ferrari were mentioned by Sky Italia.

"I would like Flavio to return, we miss him," Alonso told Spanish broadcaster TV3. "He is an unique character but it wouldn’t be like Mou in Madrid", he added, possibly referring to Mourinho’s latest controversies.

Instead, Alonso said Ferrari has important questions to ask itself regarding its overall approach to designing its single seaters.

"I think Ferrari has to try to change a little bit the way we work, risking more and being more innovative," he said. "From now on we have to start inventing."

The Spaniard insists the 2011 season is still long but acknowledged the challenge of chasing down Red Bull’s runaway Sebastian Vettel.

"We will not give up so soon but we are aware of the difficulty of having this championship," said the 29-year-old.

Ferrari technical director Aldo Costa also said it will take some more time before the 150 Italia car is a winner.

"Probably in Barcelona we will take another step forward," he told Diario Sport, "but we will have to wait for some more races to fight for victory."



#8288 kosmos

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 11:24

If I remember well, Brundle picked Alonso as this year WDC before the start of the season in the BBC preview program.

#8289 ForzaGTR

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 11:50

If I remember well, Brundle picked Alonso as this year WDC before the start of the season in the BBC preview program.


Barring a miracle, no one will stop Vettel this year. Which is annoying!!

#8290 puxanando

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 12:00

no one will stop Vettel this year.

:clap: Alonso will do with a better carrrrr!

#8291 2ms

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 12:33

Barring a miracle, no one will stop Vettel this year. Which is annoying!!


As the converse would be the case to Vettel fans if some other driver was winning in the same way that he does.

#8292 antifozy

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:06

:clap: Alonso will do with a better carrrrr!


Not disparaging Alonso, but the same can be said of Hamilton as well.
Those are the only two drivers I feel can give Vettel a fight, as when the Mclaren is fast Button don't stand a change against Hamilton, and the same applies to Ferrari with regards to Alonso and Massa.
Rosberg is unproven and Schumacher has lost it.

ps edited to clarify this is all my opinion of course.

Edited by antifozy, 10 May 2011 - 21:07.


#8293 Smile17

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:27

Not disparaging Alonso, but the same can be said of Hamilton as well.
Those are the only two drivers I feel can give Vettel a fight, as when the Mclaren is fast Button don't stand a change against Hamilton, and the same applies to Ferrari with regards to Alonso and Massa.
Rosberg is unproven and Schumacher has lost it.

ps edited to clarify this is all my opinion of course.


Schumacher hasn't lost it and Rosberg is as unproven as say Vettel, well almost then ;). Yes Hamilton is and should be the main man trying to stop Vettel. McLaren hasn't had such a disastrous start like Ferrari. So Lewis is not that far away from Vettel when we look at the WDC standings, everything is possible. Alonso will be there or thereabouts for sure too. If Vettel manages to lose this it's going to be shocking anyway.... :eek: OK, enough off topic..

Edited by Smile17, 10 May 2011 - 21:27.


#8294 Group B

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:30

Schumacher hasn't lost it and Rosberg is as unproven as say Vettel, well almost then ;). Yes Hamilton is and should be the main man trying to stop Vettel. McLaren hasn't had such a disastrous start like Ferrari. So Lewis is not that far away from Vettel when we look at the WDC standings, everything is possible. Alonso will be there or thereabouts for sure too. If Vettel manages to lose this it's going to be shocking anyway.... :eek: OK, enough off topic..

I seriously doubt you'd find many to agree with you on that one.

#8295 2ms

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:57

In my opinion there are numerous drivers who might be better than Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel. That's because this is F1. In F1 results are something even like 80% car 20% driver. Alonso and Hamilton forged their reputation while in cars that were the best on the grid. Likewise with Vettel. Surprise surprise, they are the 3 who are talked about the most as the best. But for all we know Kubica or Rosberg or any one of several others might be faster than any of them if the guys had had the good fortune of Alonso in 05-06, Hamilton 07-08m, Vettel now. Instead, none of them have ever had a wondercar or even one you could call truly competitive. So all these arguments into perpetuity about why X driver is, by fact, the best blah blah blah are so flawed and pointless. F1 is the worst series to be having strong and vocal conviction about which driver is "proven" best.

Especially absurd and basically trivial/vacuous are the arguments back and forth over claims like "X driver could win if he had faster car".

Anyway, this is supposed to be an Alonso thread...

#8296 undersquare

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 05:47

In my opinion there are numerous drivers who might be better than Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel. That's because this is F1. In F1 results are something even like 80% car 20% driver. Alonso and Hamilton forged their reputation while in cars that were the best on the grid. Likewise with Vettel. Surprise surprise, they are the 3 who are talked about the most as the best. But for all we know Kubica or Rosberg or any one of several others might be faster than any of them if the guys had had the good fortune of Alonso in 05-06, Hamilton 07-08m, Vettel now. Instead, none of them have ever had a wondercar or even one you could call truly competitive. So all these arguments into perpetuity about why X driver is, by fact, the best blah blah blah are so flawed and pointless. F1 is the worst series to be having strong and vocal conviction about which driver is "proven" best.

Especially absurd and basically trivial/vacuous are the arguments back and forth over claims like "X driver could win if he had faster car".

Anyway, this is supposed to be an Alonso thread...


If you really can't see what makes drivers like Alonso special then you're wasting your time watching F1.

#8297 rommel

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 06:34

Interestingly, none of the top three are British, which I hope dispels some of the regular myths which get brought up.


Unfortunately one example does not set a precendent. You need a much broader data set. Of course the British are biased towards their drivers, just like anyone else, especially their journalists who are as bad as many random forum posters.

#8298 puxanando

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 08:00

Alonso in SPOX.com also on P1!
Schumi in 'nobodys land'......

#8299 skid solo

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 08:14

In my opinion there are numerous drivers who might be better than Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel. That's because this is F1. In F1 results are something even like 80% car 20% driver. Alonso and Hamilton forged their reputation while in cars that were the best on the grid. Likewise with Vettel. Surprise surprise, they are the 3 who are talked about the most as the best. But for all we know Kubica or Rosberg or any one of several others might be faster than any of them if the guys had had the good fortune of Alonso in 05-06, Hamilton 07-08m, Vettel now. Instead, none of them have ever had a wondercar or even one you could call truly competitive. So all these arguments into perpetuity about why X driver is, by fact, the best blah blah blah are so flawed and pointless. F1 is the worst series to be having strong and vocal conviction about which driver is "proven" best.

Especially absurd and basically trivial/vacuous are the arguments back and forth over claims like "X driver could win if he had faster car".

Anyway, this is supposed to be an Alonso thread...


Alonso started in a minardi and immediately forged a reputation. Vetted won in a torro Rosso and Hamilton excelled in his first year against Alonso having a record run of podiums. I doubt anyone is better than these three. Maybe on a par with them, but better?

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#8300 Atic Atac

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 08:22

In my opinion there are numerous drivers who might be better than Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel. That's because this is F1. In F1 results are something even like 80% car 20% driver. Alonso and Hamilton forged their reputation while in cars that were the best on the grid. Likewise with Vettel. Surprise surprise, they are the 3 who are talked about the most as the best. But for all we know Kubica or Rosberg or any one of several others might be faster than any of them if the guys had had the good fortune of Alonso in 05-06, Hamilton 07-08m, Vettel now. Instead, none of them have ever had a wondercar or even one you could call truly competitive. So all these arguments into perpetuity about why X driver is, by fact, the best blah blah blah are so flawed and pointless. F1 is the worst series to be having strong and vocal conviction about which driver is "proven" best.


IMO, some drivers are in a different level than the rest of the field. One way of noticing them is that with an inferior car can make results which are higher than expected.

It´s easy to remember good races from Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel where they had inferior cars, but they ended winning or in the podium. Other drivers like Rosberg or Button are very good, but they seem to lack that "something else".

It´s the same as any other sport or competition. You always have one or two guys that succeed above the rest and a lot of good professionals that never get to the top spot. F1 in not an exception, even if the car makes a big difference.