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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#801 ZooL

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 18:51

A really talented rookie who had a great car from the get go. You also seem to forget that Hamilton was groomed for that seat. So I don't see how you can draw comparisons with other rookies out there.

Yes but I just thought Alonso would still be alot better. He had 6 years of F1 experience to Hamilton 0 years, who didn't even know some of the tracks or how to setup an F1 car.

Hamilton also was not groomed for the McLaren seat - he wasn't supposed to be in it, Ron tried to get him to one of the back of the grid teams.

Why cannot compare to other rookies? They are all groomed too. People like Vettel got much better grooming e.g RBR academy school and in 2006 started with Friday test sessions as 3rd driver. Hamilton had none of this and went straight up against a 2x WDC.

EDIT: just to re-affirm my point.

Edited by ZooL, 21 June 2010 - 19:00.


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#802 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 19:18

Yes but I just thought Alonso would still be alot better. He had 6 years of F1 experience to Hamilton 0 years, who didn't even know some of the tracks or how to setup an F1 car.

Hamilton also was not groomed for the McLaren seat - he wasn't supposed to be in it, Ron tried to get him to one of the back of the grid teams.

Why cannot compare to other rookies? They are all groomed too. People like Vettel got much better grooming e.g RBR academy school and in 2006 started with Friday test sessions as 3rd driver. Hamilton had none of this and went straight up against a 2x WDC.

EDIT: just to re-affirm my point.

He wasn't groomed??? That's a first, since he had Mclaren's backing since childhood. As for setups, all teams have setup models for certain races based on passed experiences and simulations. All he had to do was give feedback to the engineers of what he didn't like and adjustments would be made. I know I'm simplifying things here, but my point is that neither Hamilton nor his race engineers are idiots. Also, his GP2 experiences would have taught him about basic setups.

As for the other rookies, they didn't have a car as good as the Mclaren so comparisons are a no go for me.

#803 2ms

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 20:00

This thread is pathetic and I wish it would go away. Alonso got beaten by Hamilton who got beaten by Kimi fair and square end of story. All the conspiracy theories only make Alonso and his fanatics look bad. If Alonso is actually the better driver then he will eventually show it by beating Hamilton. Just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean he never will. Focusing on 2007, just because Alonso has gotten such poor results since then, is completely pathetic and nauseating though because it sounds like so much insecurity that Alonso might not win ever. So please stop.

If you are an Alonso fanatic please try to find solace in your certainty that he is better than Hamilton and thus will win since now he is at Ferrari and Ron Dennis cannot sabotage him. When he does that (which one would think is only matter of time considering he is perfectly decent driver and he has largest sponsorship in sport from Spanish bank and drives for the team with the most development resources), you can come in here and talk about how Alonso in 2010 is better than Hamilton and no one will be able to argue.

The reasons doing this would be good include (a ) it would let the thread have some value rather than being a big joke where anyone who comes to visit just immediately sees that apparently there is nothing to talk about regarding Alonso other than that some people fanatically think the world was out to get him and prevent him from getting 2nd place rather than third place in WDC (b ) people could talk about Alonso and his present and future without it being drowned out (c ) Alonso is a good driver and can still get some wins if he can get some consistency. It's a shame for him to look like he was finished in 2007 since that is all that people have to talk about him.

#804 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 20:33

This thread is pathetic and I wish it would go away. Alonso got beaten by Hamilton who got beaten by Kimi fair and square end of story. All the conspiracy theories only make Alonso and his fanatics look bad. If Alonso is actually the better driver then he will eventually show it by beating Hamilton. Just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean he never will. Focusing on 2007, just because Alonso has gotten such poor results since then, is completely pathetic and nauseating though because it sounds like so much insecurity that Alonso might not win ever. So please stop.

If you are an Alonso fanatic please try to find solace in your certainty that he is better than Hamilton and thus will win since now he is at Ferrari and Ron Dennis cannot sabotage him. When he does that (which one would think is only matter of time considering he is perfectly decent driver and he has largest sponsorship in sport from Spanish bank and drives for the team with the most development resources), you can come in here and talk about how Alonso in 2010 is better than Hamilton and no one will be able to argue.

The reasons doing this would be good include (a ) it would let the thread have some value rather than being a big joke where anyone who comes to visit just immediately sees that apparently there is nothing to talk about regarding Alonso other than that some people fanatically think the world was out to get him and prevent him from getting 2nd place rather than third place in WDC (b ) people could talk about Alonso and his present and future without it being drowned out (c ) Alonso is a good driver and can still get some wins if he can get some consistency. It's a shame for him to look like he was finished in 2007 since that is all that people have to talk about him.

I am not an Alonso Fanatic and this is a driver thread where comparisons with other drivers can and will be made regardless of when it happened. I didn't know this thread has a timeline... I never got involved in any Ron, Hamilton and Mclaren conspiracies theories... His errors are being discussed and comparisons are being drawn with prior campaigns. If you don't like it, don't read it.

#805 Massacrator

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 20:43

This thread is pathetic and I wish it would go away. Alonso got beaten by Hamilton who got beaten by Kimi fair and square end of story. All the conspiracy theories only make Alonso and his fanatics look bad. If Alonso is actually the better driver then he will eventually show it by beating Hamilton. Just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean he never will. Focusing on 2007, just because Alonso has gotten such poor results since then, is completely pathetic and nauseating though because it sounds like so much insecurity that Alonso might not win ever. So please stop.

If you are an Alonso fanatic please try to find solace in your certainty that he is better than Hamilton and thus will win since now he is at Ferrari and Ron Dennis cannot sabotage him. When he does that (which one would think is only matter of time considering he is perfectly decent driver and he has largest sponsorship in sport from Spanish bank and drives for the team with the most development resources), you can come in here and talk about how Alonso in 2010 is better than Hamilton and no one will be able to argue.

The reasons doing this would be good include (a ) it would let the thread have some value rather than being a big joke where anyone who comes to visit just immediately sees that apparently there is nothing to talk about regarding Alonso other than that some people fanatically think the world was out to get him and prevent him from getting 2nd place rather than third place in WDC (b ) people could talk about Alonso and his present and future without it being drowned out (c ) Alonso is a good driver and can still get some wins if he can get some consistency. It's a shame for him to look like he was finished in 2007 since that is all that people have to talk about him.

Man this is not a non-discussion forum.


#806 2ms

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 21:01

Alonso's career did not end in 2007. This season, for example, he has overall had either the best or the second best equipment on the grid (Red Bull car is fast but terrible reliability). There is good bet that by end of season it will be clear that he had the best car of anyone since Ferrari traditionally have very high in-season development rate and many people think that Ferrari is historically almost as good (if not equal) F1 team as McL. So there should be plenty to talk about other than the same old crap over and over and over about poor Alonso mistreated in 2007.

Edited by 2ms, 21 June 2010 - 22:26.


#807 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 07:28

Alonso got beaten by Hamilton who got beaten by Kimi fair and square end of story. All the conspiracy theories only make Alonso and his fanatics look bad.



no conspiracy. there are different views on that.
the one is what mclaren is potraying and the other is what alonso and his associates presented. So no conspiracy!


If Alonso is actually the better driver then he will eventually show it by beating Hamilton.

sure, as he did in past


back to 2010:

just 4 days till we can see whether the f10b is bringing ferrari nearer to the top 2 teams or not.
Cant wait to see :clap:

#808 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:29

This year's Alonso WDC will be his 3rd. So it will be like this:

Schumacher 7 WDC
Alonso 3 WDC
Button 1 WDC
Hamilton 1 WDC

And will be 4 WDC left for Alonso to match Schumacher and 5 to beat him. And I think he is young enough to do that :clap:

#809 Galka

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:34

This year's Alonso WDC will be his 3rd. So it will be like this:
And will be 4 WDC left for Alonso to match Schumacher and 5 to beat him. And I think he is young enough to do that :clap:

I guess there's only one tiny detail left to complete the picture: Alonso still has to win his 3rd WDC.

Edited by Galka, 22 June 2010 - 08:35.


#810 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:44

I guess there's only one tiny detail left to complete the picture: Alonso still has to win his 3rd WDC.

I have a crystall ball, I didn't tell you? :rotfl:

#811 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:56

This year's Alonso WDC will be his 3rd. So it will be like this:

Bookmarked for posterity.

#812 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:00

Bookmarked for posterity.

Cool with me. I'm gonna bring this up every GP he wins from now on :p

#813 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:03

Cool with me. I'm gonna bring this up every GP he wins from now on :p

i just hope the updates on the ferrari can match your (and my) expectations!

#814 WheelBanger304

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:39

If you are an Alonso fanatic please try to find solace in your certainty that he is better than Hamilton and thus will win since now he is at Ferrari and Ron Dennis cannot sabotage him.

They've got another conspiracy to hang onto now; apparently Charlie Whiting and the stewards are now heading up the vast anti-Alonso / pro-Hamilton conspiracy. So you can be sure there will be yet another excuse if Hamilton beats Alonso at the end of the season - and for the fourth season in a row.

#815 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:40

They've got another conspiracy to hang onto now; apparently Charlie Whiting and the stewards are now heading up the vast anti-Alonso / pro-Hamilton conspiracy. So you can be sure there will be yet another excuse if Hamilton beats Alonso at the end of the season - and for the fourth season in a row.

:confused:


#816 WheelBanger304

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:41

sure, as he did in past

When? So far as I'm aware, Hamilton has beaten Alonso in every season he's been in F1.

#817 Katsumi

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:48

Cool with me. I'm gonna bring this up every GP he wins from now on :p


Well, eventually he can win when RBR and McLaren have problems or DNFs ... :p

I hope Ferrari went in the right direction with this new systems F-duct and exhaust diffuser thing, but with the knowledge RBR and McLaren are developed around this systems i have no clue what to think, i just hope they arent going even further to the back.

#818 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:52

When? So far as I'm aware, Hamilton has beaten Alonso in every season he's been in F1.

material independent talks in f1 are nothing worth (regarding 2008, 2009)
regarding 2007: mclaren and hamilton were racing alonso and ended up with the same point score
and in 2007 alonso finished 10 times in front of hamilton and hamilton just 7 times in front of alonso !
so alonso beated hamilton 10 times in 2007
and hamilton alonso just 7 times (although mclaren was racing against alonso!)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 11:53.


#819 Gareth

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:56

So that's a no then? :D

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#820 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:01

So that's a no then? :D

a yes, considering 2007
alonso beated hamilton: 10:7

#821 Gareth

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:04

I don't know if you've noticed, but in F1 they have this thing called a points system :D

#822 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:06

I don't know if you've noticed, but in F1 they have this thing called a points system :D

and both had the same points!
and alonso beated hamilton 10 times and hamilton alonso 7 times
where is the problem to mention that :confused:

#823 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:06

Good point, we can finally stop discussing 2007.

In a season, Alonso can always beat Hamilton, let's say that they always finish 11th (Alonso) and 12th (Hamilton), if in the last race they finish Hamilton 9th and Alonso 10th, Hamilton would win. Would it mean Hamilton is overall better? No.

#824 Gareth

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:12

and both had the same points!
and alonso beated hamilton 10 times and hamilton alonso 7 times
where is the problem to mention that :confused:

I don't know if you noticed, but F1's tiebreaker system is based on times finishing in the highest positions - not times finishing ahead on track.

So the problem is that you were factually incorrect in claiming Alonso beat Hamilton that season. It was technically the other way round. It was by such a slim, pointless (pun intended) margin that I would never bother mentioning it myself - in fact, I'd normally be thoroughly embarrased to find myself mentioning it. But when faced with someone trying to claim the precise opposite of what actually happened, it's kind of difficult to avoid.

And if saying "Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007" based on F1's actual scoring system is embarrasing (and it is), I can't imagine how embarrasing claiming "Alonso beat Hamilton in 2007", based on a scoring system you made up, must be ...

#825 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:15

I don't know if you noticed, but F1's tiebreaker system is based on times finishing in the highest positions - not times finishing ahead on track.

So the problem is that you were factually incorrect in claiming Alonso beat Hamilton that season. It was technically the other way round. It was by such a slim, pointless (pun intended) margin that I would never bother mentioning it myself - in fact, I'd normally be thoroughly embarrased to find myself mentioning it. But when faced with someone trying to claim the precise opposite of what actually happened, it's kind of difficult to avoid.

And if saying "Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007" based on F1's actual scoring system is embarrasing (and it is), I can't imagine how embarrasing claiming "Alonso beat Hamilton in 2007", based on a scoring system you made up, must be ...

Just read my example above. It's easier to understand.

#826 yr

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:16

in 2007 alonso finished 10 times in front of hamilton and hamilton just 7 times in front of alonso !
so alonso beated hamilton 10 times in 2007
and hamilton alonso just 7 times (although mclaren was racing against alonso!)


Ah, so that´s how teammates are measured against each other. Alonso vs Massa battle is dead even so far 4-4, so I guess you rate Massa just as good as Alonso now, right?



#827 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:16

So the problem is that you were factually incorrect in claiming Alonso beat Hamilton that season.

no i am not.
If you want or not you cant change what happened. and in 2007 alonso beated hamilton 10 times and hamilton alonso 7 times on track. they had the same pointscore, and due to one more 2nd place and the counting regulatory of 2007 hamilton was gained the 2nd place and alonso the 3rd.
But that doesnt diminish that alonso beated hamilton in 2007 10:7 on track.



#828 Katsumi

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:17

I don't know if you noticed, but F1's tiebreaker system is based on times finishing in the highest positions - not times finishing ahead on track.

So the problem is that you were factually incorrect in claiming Alonso beat Hamilton that season. It was technically the other way round. It was by such a slim, pointless (pun intended) margin that I would never bother mentioning it myself - in fact, I'd normally be thoroughly embarrased to find myself mentioning it. But when faced with someone trying to claim the precise opposite of what actually happened, it's kind of difficult to avoid.

And if saying "Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007" based on F1's actual scoring system is embarrasing (and it is), I can't imagine how embarrasing claiming "Alonso beat Hamilton in 2007", based on a scoring system you made up, must be ...


:up:

#829 Gareth

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:18

But that doesnt diminish that alonso beated hamilton in 2007 10:7 on track.


And if saying "Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007" based on F1's actual scoring system is embarrasing (and it is), I can't imagine how embarrasing claiming "Alonso beat Hamilton in 2007", based on a scoring system you made up, must be ...



#830 Katsumi

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:23

no i am not.
If you want or not you cant change what happened. and in 2007 alonso beated hamilton 10 times and hamilton alonso 7 times on track. they had the same pointscore, and due to one more 2nd place and the counting regulatory of 2007 hamilton was gained the 2nd place and alonso the 3rd.
But that doesnt diminish that alonso beated hamilton in 2007 10:7 on track.


So in the standings Alonso should have been second and lewis third ... I always knew the FIA was inconsistent.

Fact is btw, Lewis was a rookie, zero experience in F1, his first year in F1. While the guy that should have beaten Lewis had 7 years of experience with 2 WDCs. IMO that makes Lewis the better one from the 2007 season from both, and even the official standings show Lewis finished above Alonso. But for me, a rookie matching a 2 times WDC with 7 years of experience is an unbelievable and sensational result.

#831 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:23

Ah, so that´s how teammates are measured against each other. Alonso vs Massa battle is dead even so far 4-4, so I guess you rate Massa just as good as Alonso now, right?

a good point :up:

but as you said, that is one of the measures how to compare the teammates achievements (if the stats are the only way to look on their performance!)
but i am a friend of the not blind reading of stats, and taking also the incidents of the races into account!

but until now, massa has beaten alonso as often as alonso has beaten massa this year! (naked stats)

#832 velgajski1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:24

no i am not.
If you want or not you cant change what happened. and in 2007 alonso beated hamilton 10 times and hamilton alonso 7 times on track. they had the same pointscore, and due to one more 2nd place and the counting regulatory of 2007 hamilton was gained the 2nd place and alonso the 3rd.
But that doesnt diminish that alonso beated hamilton in 2007 10:7 on track.


So, you're basically suggesting that Lewis Hamilton beat Kimi Raikkonen in 2007? So we have,

Lewis beat Kimi
Alonso beat Lewis
Kimi beat Alonso

Who deserved championship by your measure? All? No one? :)

Do you see why these 10-7, 11-6 results have no meaning? :)

Edited by velgajski1, 22 June 2010 - 12:25.


#833 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:26

So in the standings Alonso should have been second and lewis third ... I always knew the FIA was inconsistent.

Fact is btw, Lewis was a rookie, zero experience in F1, his first year in F1. While the guy that should have beaten Lewis had 7 years of experience with 2 WDCs. IMO that makes Lewis the better one from the 2007 season from both, and even the official standings show Lewis finished above Alonso. But for me, a rookie matching a 2 times WDC with 7 years of experience is an unbelievable and sensational result.

please do not start with fact is!
because it is also a fact that ron dennis wanted lewis to win and screwed up!

who is better?
you have also to take into account, that alonso was the rookie in mclaren, and lewis introduced him to the team, so he was the newcomer

but nevertheless. lewis made a great job in 2007 (with the bad taste of being favoured by the team)

#834 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:27

Do you see why these 10-7, 11-6 results have no meaning? :)

for whom?
in some seasons the points also not declare who was the better in that year! just remember 1982!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 12:30.


#835 velgajski1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:28

but as you said, that is one of the measures how to compare the teammates achievements (if the stats are the only way to look on their performance!)
but i am a friend of the not blind reading of stats, and taking also the incidents of the races into account!


And that is exactly why point system is what we have. I think that its impossible to find a single member of this BB that thinks that Massa is equal to Alonso this season. It just shows how screwed these 'x vs. y' stats are.

#836 velgajski1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:28

for whom?


For winning the championship.

Edited by velgajski1, 22 June 2010 - 12:30.


#837 ForeverF1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:31

for whom?


For those who understand that the record books will forever show that the 2007 WDC was Kimi Raikkonen, 2nd Lewis Hamilton, 3rd Fernando Alonso.

#838 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:32

And that is exactly why point system is what we have. I think that its impossible to find a single member of this BB that thinks that Massa is equal to Alonso this season. It just shows how screwed these 'x vs. y' stats are.

the same is with points! (they are stats too) there will never be a fair measurement, which takes everything into account!
(good for us couchpotatoes, so we can discuss that in a forum ;) )
just remember 1982!
was rosberg really the best?

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 12:34.


#839 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:33

For those who understand that the record books will forever show that the 2007 WDC was Kimi Raikkonen, 2nd Lewis Hamilton, 3rd Fernando Alonso.

sure and 1982 rosberg will be remembered WDC, although just winning 1 race!
but there will always also be other stats and in some history books some explanations which show, why he won!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 12:35.


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#840 ZooL

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:34

2007 is so done to death.

Moving forward, will Alonso make a mistake for his consecutive 8th Grand Prix?

He will have a B spec car worth 0.7 sec while McLaren and RBR won't so he should win it right?

#841 velgajski1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:36

the same is with points! there will never be a fair measurement, which takes everything into account!


That is true, but point system is more accurate because it takes finishing positions into account, whereas in vs. system victory vs 15th is same as 4th to 5th. What we F1 fans mostly do is judge performance by what we see on track but if I have to choose points or vs. system I'll always go with points.

Edited by velgajski1, 22 June 2010 - 12:36.


#842 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:36

Moving forward, will Alonso make a mistake for his consecutive 8th Grand Prix?

could you elaborate them :stoned:

He will have a B spec car worth 0.7 sec while McLaren and RBR won't so he should win it right?


how do you know, how much this update will make ferrari?

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 12:41.


#843 as65p

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:36

The whole 2007 points table discussion will get a new lease of life again should Button somehow manage a higher score than Hamilton this season.

That could become fun. :p

#844 Massacrator

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:38

2007 is so done to death.

Moving forward, will Alonso make a mistake for his consecutive 8th Grand Prix?

He will have a B spec car worth 0.7 sec while McLaren and RBR won't so he should win it right?

I have no doubt about that.

#845 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:40

That is true, but point system is more accurate because it takes finishing positions into account, whereas in vs. system victory vs 15th is same as 4th to 5th. What we F1 fans mostly do is judge performance by what we see on track but if I have to choose points or vs. system I'll always go with points.

i also choose the points system.
Because in most cases it shows, who performed better!
and on track we saw alonso beating ham 10 times!
but in the end that didnt count!
i am not mad about it, but it should be mentioned

#846 Katsumi

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:41

please do not start with fact is!
because it is also a fact that ron dennis wanted lewis to win and screwed up!

who is better?
you have also to take into account, that alonso was the rookie in mclaren, and lewis introduced him to the team, so he was the newcomer

but nevertheless. lewis made a great job in 2007 (with the bad taste of being favoured by the team)


Are you seriously suggesting that McLaren hired one of the most expensive drivers out there to support a rookie? Or did this have something to do with Alonso blackmailing Ron to favour him in the team?

Lewis was never favoured by the team, it was upto Alonso failing to put Lewis on his number, Alonso didnt have the speed to correct Lewis .. So he had to do something else to get the #1 position and RD didnt fall for that ... :)

Edited by Katsumi, 22 June 2010 - 12:46.


#847 ForeverF1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:41

sure and 1982 rosberg will be remembered WDC, although just winning 1 race!
but there will always also be other stats and in some history books some explanations which show, why he won!


So what? The records show, and always will show, that he was WDC for that year. But this has nothing to do with Fernando.
Keke won, with Didier Pironi and John Watson tied on points. Somewhat reminiscent of 2007. :lol:

#848 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:42

Are you seriously suggesting that McLaren hired one of the most expensive drivers out there to support a rookie?

the sponsors alonso brought with, didnt just come up for alonsos salary but also for much more! so it was not that mclaren paid, it was that alonso brought a lot of money to mclaren!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 12:43.


#849 OO7

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:42

So, you're basically suggesting that Lewis Hamilton beat Kimi Raikkonen in 2007? So we have,

Lewis beat Kimi
Alonso beat Lewis
Kimi beat Alonso

Who deserved championship by your measure? All? No one? :)

Do you see why these 10-7, 11-6 results have no meaning? :)


We have a paradox, the universe is about to implode. :eek:

#850 Katsumi

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:44

He will have a B spec car worth 0.7 sec while McLaren and RBR won't so he should win it right?


No, Ferrari said it could be worth 0.7s on RBR, a car that is build around the exhaust diffuser. Ferrari didnt say it would bring them 0.7s.