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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#9151 F1Johnny

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 17:03

is that Niki Lauda?



Looks like John Surtees. And judging by the age of the older car, it almost definitely is.

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#9152 SCUDmissile

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:29

Looks like John Surtees. And judging by the age of the older car, it almost definitely is.

oh yeah. thanks. will be very interesting, this.

maybe even worth enough of listening to 20 mins of Eddie :lol:

Edited by SCUDmissile, 28 June 2011 - 18:29.


#9153 topical

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:37

Q&A: How Has Alonso’s Driving Changed From His Renault Days? with Peter Windsor:


There really should be an award each year for which F1 journalist writes the biggest load of guff over the course of the season. It would be a constant toss up between Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes.

#9154 Suntrek

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:06

There really should be an award each year for which F1 journalist writes the biggest load of guff over the course of the season. It would be a constant toss up between Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes.


No, no, Windsor would win it. Every year. Hands down.

#9155 AlanWake

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:06

Peter Windsor:
"Fernando is wonderful from mid-corner to exit but in my view is still prone to errors that more manipulative drivers – Kimi, Lewis, Seb Vettel – would not make"

I really have no idea what he bases this on :confused: If anyone can help me understand, I would be grateful.

#9156 ferrarijon123

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:08

There really should be an award each year for which F1 journalist writes the biggest load of guff over the course of the season. It would be a constant toss up between Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes.

Definately windsor, I mean alonso makes more mistakes than hamilton, does he watch the same f1 that i do :lol:

#9157 AlanWake

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:11

Definately windsor, I mean alonso makes more mistakes than hamilton, does he watch the same f1 that i do :lol:


Just to remember, Peter Windsor was one of these who predicted that Fisichella would beat Alonso in 2005 due to his smooth driving style :)

#9158 Watkins74

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:35

There really should be an award each year for which F1 journalist writes the biggest load of guff over the course of the season. It would be a constant toss up between Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes.

I guess many of you were spared listening to SPEED in Windsors last year when he would mock teams and say his new USF1 team would show them a better way.

BTW - Full Disclosure....I hate the guy and his smug, snarky attitude.

Back on topic. I think Fernando has been driving his ass off this year. Per my request he even improved his starts.;) :cool:

Edited by Watkins74, 28 June 2011 - 19:48.


#9159 Anssi

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:39

Surely Fernando Alonso is very reliable as a racing driver in the car. I don't think he has the best "raw speed" but he is more reliable than most others I've seen in F1. I'd put Lewis and Kimi above him in "raw speed" but both of them are less reliable than Fernando imho. Although it must be said every racing driver I've seen in F1 have made some really boneheaded moves, also Fernando. It's just a question of how often they do them.

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#9160 SCUDmissile

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:44

Surely Fernando Alonso is very reliable as a racing driver in the car. I don't think he has the best "raw speed" but he is more reliable than most others I've seen in F1. I'd put Lewis and Kimi above him in "raw speed" but both of them are less reliable than Fernando imho. Although it must be said every racing driver I've seen in F1 have made some really boneheaded moves, also Fernando. It's just a question of how often they do them.

i would agree, and so does the man himself. he says maybe he is not the fastest, but he is the most consistent. i think Kimi at his best and Vettel have amazing speed, but Alonso imo is good in other areas.

#9161 F1Johnny

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:47

Surely Fernando Alonso is very reliable as a racing driver in the car. I don't think he has the best "raw speed" but he is more reliable than most others I've seen in F1. I'd put Lewis and Kimi above him in "raw speed" but both of them are less reliable than Fernando imho. Although it must be said every racing driver I've seen in F1 have made some really boneheaded moves, also Fernando. It's just a question of how often they do them.


True. He's driving well this year, particularly in Valencia.

#9162 Bruce

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:48

Peter Windsor.... ttpppppbbth.

What a Tw$t. Does anyone remember his "wonderful" "friction circle" argument of 1997? Tripe.

I remember reading an F1Racing article in 1997 about it in which he (Windsor) inferred that Jacques Villeneuve was intrigued by his friction circle rubbish....

Explains why JV 's career went where it did, eh?

#9163 Anssi

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:49

Another top driver who has said he may not be the fastest is Michael Schumacher. Schumacher must have realised he doesn't need to be fastest as he can make up for it in other areas, such as in testing (this was when Ferrari could test massively at their private track between every race). It's smart, of course. You got to know your advantages and disadvantages if you want to perform at your best and develop yourself and to avoid situations where you most likely lose.

#9164 toxicfusion

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:51

Q&A: How Has Alonso’s Driving Changed From His Renault Days? with Peter Windsor:

http://www.totalf1.c.....rmula 1 News)

Looks like BBC is recording something today at Maranello with Fernando.

Posted Image


Is that the F150? the nose is different as well as the supports down to the wing, along with the camera positions. hmm.

Edited by toxicfusion, 28 June 2011 - 19:52.


#9165 Anssi

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:52

Oh, and I like that photo too. Thanks...

#9166 phil1993

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:56

Looks like the F60

#9167 Mackey

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:56

Not the fastest? Maybe, but i don´t think for a second Kimi was faster than him as some are saying here. Alonso has outqualified Massa 23-3, I don´t think Raikkonnen was even close to that number.

#9168 Bruce

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:03

Not the fastest? Maybe, but i don´t think for a second Kimi was faster than him as some are saying here. Alonso has outqualified Massa 23-3, I don´t think Raikkonnen was even close to that number.



KIMI????

Faster than Alonso????


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

drunker? yeah - but never faster. :p

#9169 F1Johnny

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:07

Not the fastest? Maybe, but i don´t think for a second Kimi was faster than him as some are saying here. Alonso has outqualified Massa 23-3, I don´t think Raikkonnen was even close to that number.


I guess it doesn't matter that Alonso vs Massa was after Massa's accident.

#9170 Anssi

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:10

Fernando Alonso is certainly a great F1 driver, but whether you like it or not, many people hold the opinion that he is not the fastest one. Personally I can settle for agreeing to disagree about this.

#9171 F1Johnny

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:18

Fernando Alonso is certainly a great F1 driver, but whether you like it or not, many people hold the opinion that he is not the fastest one. Personally I can settle for agreeing to disagree about this.


Exactly, Alonso is the most complete driver, but not the quickest. Last year Lewis was creeping up to him but he has slid down the pole this year - he is still too raw which at some level is unacceptable given his 4 years in F1. Vettel is also pretty close, but I would like to see him win from the 2nd or 3rd row a few times.

When watching Vettel, Alonso, Lewis, the only one I never expect to make a mistake is Alonso. So there is no shame in saying that he is not the quickest, but that he is the most complete.

#9172 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:32

I guess it doesn't matter that Alonso vs Massa was after Massa's accident.


Well, I at least haven't seen a single convincing piece of proof why it should matter. In fact all we have is every doctor he's been at saying he's perfectly okay vs. a certain percentage of racing fans expertise that he's not.

#9173 AlanWake

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:34

Alonso's speed IS underrated, definetely.

#9174 Hole

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:35

That Alonso is not the fastest is something that even Alonso himself have said several times. I bet he doesn't give a shit about it because actually he doesn't need to be faster than he is now taking into account that he's excelent at some other fields involving racing.

#9175 AlanWake

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:25

Posted Image

Source: http://f1-facts.com/...ics/team-mates/

#9176 AlanWake

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:30

That Alonso is not the fastest is something that even Alonso himself have said several times. I bet he doesn't give a shit about it because actually he doesn't need to be faster than he is now taking into account that he's excelent at some other fields involving racing.

That is because I admire him. He doesn't care about what (unknown) people think about him.

#9177 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:47

Well, I at least haven't seen a single convincing piece of proof why it should matter. In fact all we have is every doctor he's been at saying he's perfectly okay vs. a certain percentage of racing fans expertise that he's not.


I didn't see any of these doctors trackside doing clinical studies on Massa'a racing ability before and after his accident. I must have missed that! But if you say he is the same racer he was before his brain injury then who can argue. :up:

#9178 BalazsF1

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:49

Is Alonso not the fastest guy? He is at least at the same level as Lewis and I am sure he is better than Seb.
Alonso has done some magic qualy. His qualy laps have been fantastic. His best lap in Barcelona this year was -IMO- one of the best qualy lap in the history of F1. With that car doing such a fantastic lap was incredible.
I have no doubts Alonso is the best driver by far,
There are drivers who are easy on tyres like Button (sometimes it is a bit outlashed), there are superquick driver like Lewis, there are very intelligent driver like Nico, and so on, but the man who has it all is called Fernando Alonso.

#9179 Ferrari2183

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:07

I don't know if I watch the same Formula 1 as you guys but Alonso is very quick when it matters, and that is on Sunday. Add to that his ability to maintain that relentless pace for long periods and you have a great driver.

His speed is definitely underrated but I can live with that and I'm sure he can too.

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#9180 Dunder

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:08

Peter Windsor:
"Fernando is wonderful from mid-corner to exit but in my view is still prone to errors that more manipulative drivers – Kimi, Lewis, Seb Vettel – would not make"

I really have no idea what he bases this on :confused: If anyone can help me understand, I would be grateful.


I have no idea what he is talking about. Those "V shape" drivers who prefer to throw it in to the corner are always going to be more prone to errors at corner entry than a "U shape" driver (like Alonso) is at corner exit.


Posted Image

Source: http://f1-facts.com/...ics/team-mates/


Very impressive but I've got three words for you. Marques, Yoong and Grosjean. :cat:


#9181 Ferrari2183

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:10

Posted Image

Source: http://f1-facts.com/...ics/team-mates/

Well to be fair he has had shit team-mates except for Lewis.

#9182 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:15

I didn't see any of these doctors trackside doing clinical studies on Massa'a racing ability before and after his accident. I must have missed that! But if you say he is the same racer he was before his brain injury then who can argue. :up:


Well, explain to me what tangible indications you have that Massa is a worse driver now than before the accident.

#9183 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:32

Well, explain to me what tangible indications you have that Massa is a worse driver now than before the accident.


Massa was able to fight directly and beat sometimes Lewis Alonso and Räikkönen in similar fast cars. Again in 2008. Now, the Ferrari and Mclaren cars are still roughly equal and he´s nowhere.

#9184 Ferrari2183

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:35

Ok then. Tell us which cars were the easiest to drive?

#9185 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:43

Ok then. Tell us which cars were the easiest to drive?


Irrelevant. Massa drove well old aero spec cars with and without TC. Massa drove well new aero spec cars before the crash.

But if you still want to know my opinion, I think the 2008 cars were really tricky. First time no TC, little advance in new engine maps for this situation, plus shitty grooved tyres with less mechanical grip. The onboards I remember from that time showed the drivers working overtime to get traction.

EDIT: curiously enough, Massa had terrible seasons in years when the car was a rolling computer.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 28 June 2011 - 22:46.


#9186 Nitropower

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:57

You got a point there Skinnyguy. Sometimes we forget it's not only driving ability needed. Drivers of today need to handle a number of buttons, like astronauts. Maybe Massa is not as good with pressing so many buttons (KERS, DRS, brake distribution, etc.) and that makes him a little slower. If you are less skillled in that sense, you might well lose a couple of tenths here and there.

#9187 Ferrari2183

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 23:00

Irrelevant. Massa drove well old aero spec cars with and without TC. Massa drove well new aero spec cars before the crash.

But if you still want to know my opinion, I think the 2008 cars were really tricky. First time no TC, little advance in new engine maps for this situation, plus shitty grooved tyres with less mechanical grip. The onboards I remember from that time showed the drivers working overtime to get traction.

EDIT: curiously enough, Massa had terrible seasons in years when the car was a rolling computer.

Or Kimi drove poorly in 2008 and early 2009 which made Massa look better than he really was. I can't think of a season prior to 2007 and post 2008 where Massa was a threat. Furthermore, I've always considered the F2008 to have been wasted on both Massa and Kimi. It was in my opinion the class of the field.

#9188 abc02

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 23:00

Is Alonso not the fastest guy? He is at least at the same level as Lewis and I am sure he is better than Seb.
Alonso has done some magic qualy. His qualy laps have been fantastic. His best lap in Barcelona this year was -IMO- one of the best qualy lap in the history of F1. With that car doing such a fantastic lap was incredible.
I have no doubts Alonso is the best driver by far,
There are drivers who are easy on tyres like Button (sometimes it is a bit outlashed), there are superquick driver like Lewis, there are very intelligent driver like Nico, and so on, but the man who has it all is called Fernando Alonso.

It looked like a very solid, smooth lap. But he seemed to miss an apex or two by a few inches, so I'm not sure I'd call it perfect, or one of the best laps ever.

#9189 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 00:02

Well, explain to me what tangible indications you have that Massa is a worse driver now than before the accident.


Well comparing 2008 Massa with 2010 Massa, both of whom drove a car capable of taking its driver to gp wins and the wdc (so close both years!), the difference is dramatic:

6 wins to 0.
10 podiums to 5.
250 pts (approx) to 144.
2nd in the wdc to 6th.

Definite drop in performance imo.

Hopefully this season may see him improve a bit.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 29 June 2011 - 00:03.


#9190 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 00:21

Or Kimi drove poorly in 2008 and early 2009 which made Massa look better than he really was. I can't think of a season prior to 2007 and post 2008 where Massa was a threat. Furthermore, I've always considered the F2008 to have been wasted on both Massa and Kimi. It was in my opinion the class of the field.


Yeah, let´s just forget about 2007. It doesn´t fit in your agenda very well. :rotfl: He matched for pace the big three guys in the sport in roughly equally fast cars.

Yes, the F2008 was a fantastic car, probably the best, with some cons because it wasn´t a good car to have in the rain and in that season it rained quite a lot. Yes, Kimi wasted it being unable to qualify properly. But if you think that Massa wasted it, you need to take off that Ferrari glasses: your beloved team screwed way more than Massa did.

EDIT: Nitropower, with "rolling computers" I was talking about the early 2000´s cars with tons of electronic aids: TC, launch control... cars which were easier to drive. In those years Massa was a mistake waiting to happen. Never though about the buttons stuff, don´t have any opinion on that.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 29 June 2011 - 00:26.


#9191 HPT

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:43

There really should be an award each year for which F1 journalist writes the biggest load of guff over the course of the season. It would be a constant toss up between Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes.


I fully agree. Peter Windsor just said a bunch of things without saying anything at all. What does he mean by 'he drives with the back end of the car?' Awesome mid-corner correction but not a manipulative driver? What kind of nonsense is that? I've been following F1 for almost 2 decades and I have no freaking clue what he's on about. Maybe if I analyse his statements closely, the best I could do is still harbor a guess to what he really meant.

#9192 Kohque

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:56

Surely Fernando Alonso is very reliable as a racing driver in the car. I don't think he has the best "raw speed" but he is more reliable than most others I've seen in F1. I'd put Lewis and Kimi above him in "raw speed" but both of them are less reliable than Fernando imho. Although it must be said every racing driver I've seen in F1 have made some really boneheaded moves, also Fernando. It's just a question of how often they do them.

I cannot agree with that. The Q2s of 2007 show 10-7 in favor of Alonso: 4-4 until mid-season and 6-3 in the second half. You cannot take too much from the Q2, but what you cannot say is that Hamilton has more raw speed than Alonso. It seems to me that as Alonso felt more comfortable with the car and the tires, he started performing better than Hamilton, but they didn't stay long enough together to make a fair comparison. It is also true that it was Hamilton's first year in F1, but to be honest he hasn't been much more consistent after 2007.

And regarding Kimi vs Alonso, I have no idea. My impression is that Kimi was very fast, but we will never know who was faster. Alonso is clearly on top of Massa, and some have alluded to a weight disadvantage with the introduction of KERS between Kimi and Massa, so it is difficult to say if he would have been faster than Massa or not without the weight disadvantage (I think he would have).

Edited by Kohque, 29 June 2011 - 04:05.


#9193 Kohque

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:57

I guess it doesn't matter that Alonso vs Massa was after Massa's accident.

No, to be honest, it doesn't.

#9194 BalazsF1

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:55

As for Felipe: he is destroyed by Fernando. Fernando is such a brilliant and strong character that it is very hard for Felipe to deal with it. Everbody needs the feeling that he is the best. Felipe cannot cope with this pressure. I still believe he is very talented, but Fernando is just better in all areas and that hamper the Brazilian heavily.

What I noticed at Valencia: Felipe was 1,5 tenths down to Nando. In the race he was strong in the first stint, but from the second he was much slower then him. Okay, Ferrari came up with excuses: his tyres were not okay on the second stint. But what about his third and fourth stint? He was lapping more than half a second slower than him team-mate. I really like Felipe, but Fernando is class of the field. I think there are only three drivers who could match him: Lewis, Robert and Schumacher in his old brilliant form (and perphaps Sebastian), but it would be very hard even for them.

#9195 Ferrari2183

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:04

Yeah, let´s just forget about 2007. It doesn´t fit in your agenda very well. :rotfl: He matched for pace the big three guys in the sport in roughly equally fast cars.

Yes, the F2008 was a fantastic car, probably the best, with some cons because it wasn´t a good car to have in the rain and in that season it rained quite a lot. Yes, Kimi wasted it being unable to qualify properly. But if you think that Massa wasted it, you need to take off that Ferrari glasses: your beloved team screwed way more than Massa did.

EDIT: Nitropower, with "rolling computers" I was talking about the early 2000´s cars with tons of electronic aids: TC, launch control... cars which were easier to drive. In those years Massa was a mistake waiting to happen. Never though about the buttons stuff, don´t have any opinion on that.

Nobody said Kimi drove poorly in 2007, but Massa hardly seemed a threat to me and in 2008 he was all over the place. Some great results and some very poor results too.

#9196 topical

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:50

When watching Vettel, Alonso, Lewis, the only one I never expect to make a mistake is Alonso. So there is no shame in saying that he is not the quickest, but that he is the most complete.


I agree - unless it's raining, in which case I expect Alonso to be the first of those three to make a mistake.


#9197 topical

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:53

Well to be fair he has had shit team-mates except for Lewis.


Fisichella was considered one of the best drivers in F1 until he was paired with Alonso. He comfortably beat both Massa and Button when they were teammates. Okay, so it was at Renault at a time when Flavio was in charge, so we don't know if they had 100% parity, but he hardly falls into the 'shit' category.

#9198 AlanWake

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:17

Well comparing 2008 Massa with 2010 Massa, both of whom drove a car capable of taking its driver to gp wins and the wdc (so close both years!), the difference is dramatic:

6 wins to 0.
10 podiums to 5.
250 pts (approx) to 144.
2nd in the wdc to 6th.

Definite drop in performance imo.

Hopefully this season may see him improve a bit.


If Massa doesn't look like the Massa of 2008 it is because of two reasons IMO:

- A much slower car compared to the opposition.
- He is no longer the favorite son in the Ferrari Team.

#9199 kosmos

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:43

Posted Image

Spot on :up:

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#9200 BennyJohnson

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:53

Posted Image

Spot on :up:


I think Webber's Bull might be fatter than Seb's XD