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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#9201 Fontainebleau

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:14

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Spot on :up:


:lol:

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#9202 fabr68

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:43

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Spot on :up:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Good one. Although I think Ferrari has done a good job recovering against the best of the rest.

#9203 Goron3

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:56

I don't know why it surprised people that Alonso is a class above Massa, it really was obvious it would happen from the get go. In 2006 Massa was outqualified by MS in 51 of the 54 Q sessions that year, with the average distance between them almost half a second (or something in that region). It really is no surprise to me.

#9204 Bruce

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:26

As for Felipe: he is destroyed by Fernando. Fernando is such a brilliant and strong character that it is very hard for Felipe to deal with it. Everbody needs the feeling that he is the best. Felipe cannot cope with this pressure. I still believe he is very talented, but Fernando is just better in all areas and that hamper the Brazilian heavily.


I've always seen Massa as a potentially very fast driver, but one who is mentally fragile. As you suggest - he seems not to respond to pressure well.

#9205 Atic Atac

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:05

I agree - unless it's raining, in which case I expect Alonso to be the first of those three to make a mistake.


Well, from memory i remember two big mistakes by FA in the wet. One was Fuji 2007 and the other the last year at spa.

Do you know a common thing between both accidents? FA Had the car damaged in both circuits when he crashed.

In Fuji i think he crashed against a toro rosso (vettel maybe?, not sure really) and in Spa he was hitted by barrichelo at the begining of the race.

IIRC in fuji there was aero damage. In Spa the car looked normal, but in a post race interview he said there was some suspension damage and he was driving with the wheel turned to one side.

BTW, i think he had another mistake in the wet driving for renault. Germany 2008 maybe?.

Generally in the wet FA is pretty good, as the top drivers normally are. Hamilton for example is very good in wet conditions and he almost crashed in spa last year and lost a position in korea also last year.


#9206 phil1993

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:18

Well, from memory i remember two big mistakes by FA in the wet. One was Fuji 2007 and the other the last year at spa.

Do you know a common thing between both accidents? FA Had the car damaged in both circuits when he crashed.

In Fuji i think he crashed against a toro rosso (vettel maybe?, not sure really) and in Spa he was hitted by barrichelo at the begining of the race.

IIRC in fuji there was aero damage. In Spa the car looked normal, but in a post race interview he said there was some suspension damage and he was driving with the wheel turned to one side.

BTW, i think he had another mistake in the wet driving for renault. Germany 2008 maybe?.

Generally in the wet FA is pretty good, as the top drivers normally are. Hamilton for example is very good in wet conditions and he almost crashed in spa last year and lost a position in korea also last year.


Think you might be thinking of Monaco where he hit the right rear at the entry to the Casino (where he crashed in FP3 2010)

#9207 F1Johnny

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:45

No, to be honest, it doesn't.


To you maybe. And that's fine.

#9208 topical

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 15:10

Well, from memory i remember two big mistakes by FA in the wet. One was Fuji 2007 and the other the last year at spa.


There was also a big crash at Monaco one year. I seem to remember a couple of spins at Silverstone the year it was very wet (08?). His performance in Canada a couple of weeks ago left a lot to be desired. There have been other occasions where he made the wrong tyre choice (team's fault? his fault? who knows).
Against that there's Hungary 06 and Korea 10. Nurburgring 07 was also good.
In short, as I've said many times before: Alonso is erratic in the wet. He's had some great races and some very poor ones. He tends to be quick but also have quite a few offs. All in all, I would say Hamilton and Vettel are more consistently strong in those conditions.

#9209 nbhb

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:05

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Spot on :up:

Priceless.

Edited by nbhb, 29 June 2011 - 16:10.


#9210 nbhb

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:10

There was also a big crash at Monaco one year. I seem to remember a couple of spins at Silverstone the year it was very wet (08?). His performance in Canada a couple of weeks ago left a lot to be desired. There have been other occasions where he made the wrong tyre choice (team's fault? his fault? who knows).
Against that there's Hungary 06 and Korea 10. Nurburgring 07 was also good.
In short, as I've said many times before: Alonso is erratic in the wet. He's had some great races and some very poor ones. He tends to be quick but also have quite a few offs. All in all, I would say Hamilton and Vettel are more consistently strong in those conditions.

He was very good in Chiana and Australia last year. Well apart from starts...

#9211 Massa

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:21

Not the fastest? Maybe, but i don´t think for a second Kimi was faster than him as some are saying here. Alonso has outqualified Massa 23-3, I don´t think Raikkonnen was even close to that number.


So you compare the Raikkonen (2007-2009) with the Alonso ( 2010-2011 ) ?

You compare Massa ( 2007-2009) with Massa ( 2010-2011 ) ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It's very accurate mate, it's like compare Alonso ( 2001-2004 ) with Alonso ( 2010-2011) :rolleyes:

Edited by Massa, 29 June 2011 - 16:22.


#9212 fernandofan2001

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:31

There was also a big crash at Monaco one year. I seem to remember a couple of spins at Silverstone the year it was very wet (08?). His performance in Canada a couple of weeks ago left a lot to be desired. There have been other occasions where he made the wrong tyre choice (team's fault? his fault? who knows).
Against that there's Hungary 06 and Korea 10. Nurburgring 07 was also good.
In short, as I've said many times before: Alonso is erratic in the wet. He's had some great races and some very poor ones. He tends to be quick but also have quite a few offs. All in all, I would say Hamilton and Vettel are more consistently strong in those conditions.


Are you for real? I mean, REAL? Alonso isn't erratic in the wet.

Spa 2005- Quali 4th, race 2nd. Great drive in changeable conditions by the Dragon-stricken R25. No faults or errors
Hungary 2006- Car failure. Otherwise was sublime on the superior michellin wet tyres and changeable conditions. Class of the field.
China 2006- Finished second after being assisted by Fisichella and waved through. Struggled with tyres.
Fuji 2007- was hit up the rear by a toro rosso. Crashed later in the race as result of unstable rear.
European Gp 2007- Phenomenal drive in changeable conditions, sublime and ballsy overtake on Felipe and then left him for dust afterwards.
Monaco 2008- Over eager on wets, fastest man on track after being the first to switch tyres. Made an over optimistic over take on Heidfeld. Fault Alonso
Silverstone 2008- didnt spin at all. Started 6th and finished 6th. No mistakes.
Monza 2008- Faultless drive to 4th place after qualifying 8th.
Spa 2008- Once again, supreme in changeable conditions- Dispatched 5 cars in the last lap after making a daring change from dry tyres.
Brazil 2008- quali 6th, but was upto second and stayed there, hounding massa and keeping kimi at bay, in the 3rd fastest car.
China 2009- Started second by massive fluke and running on fumes. No mistakes but still finished 9th
Australia 2010- Spun by Jenson in T1, otherwise great drive and defence.
China 2010- Driver error of jump start. Still finished 4th, one away from grid start position.
Spa 2010- Damaged by Rubens Barrichello and spun later in the race.
Korea 2010- Supreme race of containing his tyres and pressuring hamilton.
Canada 2011- 70-30 Buttons, but was racing incident. No driver mistake.

So in his career, he has retired from 3 wet races; 2 with damage as a major contributing factor, and a 3rd being spun out by Jenson Button. A further race is added after making a mistake and T-boning Heidfeld. I will add china 2009 to the list so we can also eradicate any non points finishes. So thats 3 races with retirement, and 2 further non point scores due to incompetative/hitting heidfeld. 5 races in his career, otherwise, the other 11 races mean he's erratic.


Edited by ForeverF1, 29 June 2011 - 20:22.
Removed "Idiot."


#9213 nbhb

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:33

So you compare the Raikkonen (2007-2009) with the Alonso ( 2010-2011 ) ?

You compare Massa ( 2007-2009) with Massa ( 2010-2011 ) ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It's very accurate mate, it's like compare Alonso ( 2001-2004 ) with Alonso ( 2010-2011) :rolleyes:

What's the catch?

#9214 SCUDmissile

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:38

John Surtees and Fernando Alonso

Maranello, 29 June – For the past two days, a truly special guest was welcomed within the Ferrari walls, in the shape of a former Ferrari driver and one of the legendary names of the sport, John Surtees. He was involved, along with Fernando Alonso in a promotional event organised by Shell at the Fiorano track which saw Ferrari past and present brought together in the garage. “Looking into Fernando’s eyes, I could see the same determination I had when I was racing,” he said. “Time passes, but passion for racing is something that never changes across the centuries and if you have it in you, you see it in others.”

On leaving Alonso, Surtees met Piero Ferrari, the Ferrari vice president and Stefano Domenicali, the Scuderia team principal and was then taken on a tour of the company, beginning in the Ferrari Classiche department, where he was met by Giulio Borsari, a former mechanic and now a consultant to the company, who had worked closely with Surtees when he drove for the Maranello team. The Englishman is actually the only man to have won world championships in Formula 1 and its equivalent on motorbikes. He made the move to four wheels in 1960, having won seven world titles with MV Agusta and he joined Ferrari in 1962, taking the world title in ’64. Borsari and Surtees reminisced about the significant and enjoyable moments they spent together at the race tracks. The tour for the “figlio del vento” (son of the wind) as he was called back then by his Ferrari team, continued with a visit to the new assembly line and he was clearly impressed by the technology involved. “It’s incredible how everything has changed!” exclaimed Surtees on entering the building. “In my day, the cars were pushed on trolleys and a group of mechanics would work around it. Now, everyone has a place to work and no one seems to be pushing trolleys!”

It was an emotional moment when he went to the Ferrari Museum, where he was snapped alongside his old helmet and a winning photo dating from 1964.



#9215 Kohque

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 17:28

To you maybe. And that's fine.

To me and to anybody who has seen him driving after the crash. What kind of mental deficiency allows you to stay at only few hundredths of your team mate? The mental problem is definitely not his.

Edited by Kohque, 29 June 2011 - 17:31.


#9216 as65p

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 17:38

To me and to anybody who has seen him driving after the crash. What kind of mental deficiency allows you to stay at only few hundredths of your team mate? The mental problem is definitely not his.


It's a futile discussion, mind you. Massa's accident is just to good an excuse to not use it, and nobody will ever be able to prove if it affected him or not, either way.

#9217 kosmos

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:33

New blog entry.

http://www.ferrari.c...-maranello.aspx

Anyway, the tyre choice is the same for everyone and there’s no point discussing if the pair of compounds chosen is more suited to one team or another. It’s up to the teams to adjust the cars to get the best out of the tyres both in terms of performance and life.


PR or not, big :up:

#9218 Kohque

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:37

It's a futile discussion, mind you. Massa's accident is just to good an excuse to not use it, and nobody will ever be able to prove if it affected him or not, either way.

It is a futile conversation, no doubt. You just need to use it as an excuse every time a driver goes from 200km/h to none and their brain almost disconnects from their spine. Can you imagine saying "Oh, you know, Kovalainen lost many neurons that day. I think that explains why he never caught up with his team mate." Who knows it might be, but I would try to look for a much more plausible alternatives before bringing up unfounded theories from my spotless mind.

Just picture the conversation:

Is your vision good?

No, I usually drive visually impaired at 300km/h, what do you think?

What about your speech? Are you articulate enough?

You mean in English or in Portuguese? I also speak quite good Italian...

Good, good, do you have problems remembering anything?

No, that was Hamilton.

And finally, are you still able to drive a racing car fast enough to stay at only few hundredths of a second from one of the best drivers currently in the grid?

Yes, I do.

Well, then I would say you are just doing fine. No risks of going full retard anytime soon.

#9219 as65p

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:44

It is a futile conversation, no doubt. You just need to use it as an excuse every time a driver goes from 200km/h to none and their brain almost disconnects from their spine. Can you imagine saying "Oh, you know, Kovalainen lost many neurons that day. I think that explains why he never caught up with his team mate." Who knows it might be, but I would try to look for a much more plausible alternatives before bringing up unfounded theories from my spotless mind.

Just picture the conversation:

Is your vision good?

No, I usually drive visually impaired at 300km/h, what do you think?

What about your speech? Are you articulate enough?

You mean in English or in Portuguese? I also speak quite good Italian...

Good, good, do you have problems remembering anything?

No, that was Hamilton.

And finally, are you still able to drive a racing car fast enough to stay at only few hundredths of a second from one of the best drivers currently in the grid?

Yes, I do.

Well, then I would say you are just doing fine. No risks of going full retard anytime soon.


:lol: :up:

We're on the same page, of course. Yet as I said, there won't be any chance to prove those wrong who (want to) believe Massa has lost a tenth or two. The only consolation is they can't prove their POV either... Ergo: futile.

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#9220 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 19:12

We're on the same page, of course. Yet as I said, there won't be any chance to prove those wrong who (want to) believe Massa has lost a tenth or two. The only consolation is they can't prove their POV either... Ergo: futile.


Well not everyone claiming he´s slower is blaming the accident. I´m not. Drivers shape change over the years. I think that´s the case.

#9221 F1Johnny

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 19:14

To me and to anybody who has seen him driving after the crash. What kind of mental deficiency allows you to stay at only few hundredths of your team mate? The mental problem is definitely not his.


You will find that there are quite a few people here on this forum and elswhere that have seen him driving after the crash that feel that the accident affected his driving.

IMO, excluding his relative driving to Alonso, he does not appear to be driving at the level he was prior to the accident. I expected Alonso to show him the way, but it's not that, he just doesn't seem the same driver to me. Accidents affect drivers in different ways. Some come back with no negative impact and some come back with just a minor negative impact that could account for a loss of a few tenths. A few tenths could be just braking that .01 earlier per corner because of fear. It happens and not everyone is the same in how they deal with these things.

Edited by F1Johnny, 29 June 2011 - 19:16.


#9222 Fontainebleau

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 21:07

There was also a big crash at Monaco one year. I seem to remember a couple of spins at Silverstone the year it was very wet (08?). His performance in Canada a couple of weeks ago left a lot to be desired. There have been other occasions where he made the wrong tyre choice (team's fault? his fault? who knows).
Against that there's Hungary 06 and Korea 10. Nurburgring 07 was also good.
In short, as I've said many times before: Alonso is erratic in the wet. He's had some great races and some very poor ones. He tends to be quick but also have quite a few offs. All in all, I would say Hamilton and Vettel are more consistently strong in those conditions.

Alonso was one of three/four drivers (have seen both figures) who did not spin once at Silverstone 2008. On the other hand, here you have a couple of spins at Silverstone by Hamilton (2008 and 2009) - so even if Alonso had spin, why would you rate him differently than Hamilton in terms of consistency? I think both of them are equally good, but for some reason Alonso is underestimated.




#9223 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:15

:lol: :up:

We're on the same page, of course. Yet as I said, there won't be any chance to prove those wrong who (want to) believe Massa has lost a tenth or two. The only consolation is they can't prove their POV either... Ergo: futile.


"The proof is in the pudding" is the old saying. One look at his pre vs post accident performances both in very fast championship challenging Ferrari's would indicate that his injury had significant impact to his abilities. From being a dominant force in 2008 he became an almost invisible presence in 2010. The brain injury cannot be ignored as a major factor in Massa's decline imo.

Lets hope he can reclaim some of his former speed this season.

#9224 as65p

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:09

"The proof is in the pudding" is the old saying. One look at his pre vs post accident performances both in very fast championship challenging Ferrari's would indicate that his injury had significant impact to his abilities. From being a dominant force in 2008 he became an almost invisible presence in 2010. The brain injury cannot be ignored as a major factor in Massa's decline imo.


As much as you want, that's no proof at all.

With what brain injury of Webber would you explain the difference between his 2010 and 2011 performances, for example?

#9225 Man of the race

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:37

http://www.ferrari.c...-maranello.aspx


The tyres may be same for everone, but the cars are not. Soft option will give Ferrari and Fernando an advantage. They will have easier time with the softs, which may lead to a shift in power in the race. I can't wait for Silverstone, there are many interesting prospects, and a good traditional track, basically all that Valencia can't offer,except that sunny beach.

Edited by Man of the race, 30 June 2011 - 06:43.


#9226 nbhb

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:50

You will find that there are quite a few people here on this forum and elswhere that have seen him driving after the crash that feel that the accident affected his driving.

IMO, excluding his relative driving to Alonso, he does not appear to be driving at the level he was prior to the accident. I expected Alonso to show him the way, but it's not that, he just doesn't seem the same driver to me. Accidents affect drivers in different ways. Some come back with no negative impact and some come back with just a minor negative impact that could account for a loss of a few tenths. A few tenths could be just braking that .01 earlier per corner because of fear. It happens and not everyone is the same in how they deal with these things.


Before accident:
Massa 0.5 slower than Shimacher
After accident:
Massa 0.5 slower than Alonso

Seems logical to me...

#9227 topical

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:50

Are you for real? I mean, REAL? Alonso isn't erratic in the wet.

Spa 2005- Quali 4th, race 2nd. Great drive in changeable conditions by the Dragon-stricken R25. No faults or errors
Hungary 2006- Car failure. Otherwise was sublime on the superior michellin wet tyres and changeable conditions. Class of the field.
China 2006- Finished second after being assisted by Fisichella and waved through. Struggled with tyres.
Fuji 2007- was hit up the rear by a toro rosso. Crashed later in the race as result of unstable rear.
European Gp 2007- Phenomenal drive in changeable conditions, sublime and ballsy overtake on Felipe and then left him for dust afterwards.
Monaco 2008- Over eager on wets, fastest man on track after being the first to switch tyres. Made an over optimistic over take on Heidfeld. Fault Alonso
Silverstone 2008- didnt spin at all. Started 6th and finished 6th. No mistakes.
Monza 2008- Faultless drive to 4th place after qualifying 8th.
Spa 2008- Once again, supreme in changeable conditions- Dispatched 5 cars in the last lap after making a daring change from dry tyres.
Brazil 2008- quali 6th, but was upto second and stayed there, hounding massa and keeping kimi at bay, in the 3rd fastest car.
China 2009- Started second by massive fluke and running on fumes. No mistakes but still finished 9th
Australia 2010- Spun by Jenson in T1, otherwise great drive and defence.
China 2010- Driver error of jump start. Still finished 4th, one away from grid start position.
Spa 2010- Damaged by Rubens Barrichello and spun later in the race.
Korea 2010- Supreme race of containing his tyres and pressuring hamilton.
Canada 2011- 70-30 Buttons, but was racing incident. No driver mistake.

So in his career, he has retired from 3 wet races; 2 with damage as a major contributing factor, and a 3rd being spun out by Jenson Button. A further race is added after making a mistake and T-boning Heidfeld. I will add china 2009 to the list so we can also eradicate any non points finishes. So thats 3 races with retirement, and 2 further non point scores due to incompetative/hitting heidfeld. 5 races in his career, otherwise, the other 11 races mean he's erratic.


China 2007? Way slower than Hamilton in the wet.
My point about Canada was less the crash with Button than the fact he was slower than Massa, which is very unusual. and they made a crap call for tyres.
I'm not saying Alonso is bad in the wet. Only that, imo, it's one area where I think both Hamilton and Vettel are a bit better.

Edited by topical, 30 June 2011 - 08:56.


#9228 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:55

Before accident:
Massa 0.5 slower than Shimacher
After accident:
Massa 0.5 slower than Alonso

Seems logical to me...


Forgot to mention that before the accident he also matched Hamilton, Räikkönen and Alonso for pace :wave:


#9229 fernandofan2001

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:15

China 2007? Way slower than Hamilton in the wet.
My point about Canada was less the crash with Button than the fact he was slower than Massa, which is very unusual. and they made a crap call for tyres.
I'm not saying Alonso is bad in the wet. Only that, imo, it's one area where I think both Hamilton and Vettel are a bit better.


Whats speed got to do with it? In the European GP, Hamilton was way slower than Alonso. So whats your point?

He was slower than massa because he went for a half set up, massa went for a wet setup along with Mclaren. Thats why RB was slower aswell because they went half and half. But when the track bedded in, he was much faster than Felipe before being spun by Jenson.

Vettel is reputed to be good in the wet, but when you have the best car and youve got no one to fight, its all good. soon as pressure comes on, he falters like in canada, and its not the first time that once pressure is on him, he falters.

I really dont see how you can say Hamilton and Vettel are better than Alonso in the wet. They are all as good as each other to be honest; they have all won, they have all lost, and they have all made mistakes in the wet. Its natural for it to happen. I mean, hamilton is better why did he throw away second/the win in korea if he is better?



#9230 SCUDmissile

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:20

Whats speed got to do with it? In the European GP, Hamilton was way slower than Alonso. So whats your point?

He was slower than massa because he went for a half set up, massa went for a wet setup along with Mclaren. Thats why RB was slower aswell because they went half and half. But when the track bedded in, he was much faster than Felipe before being spun by Jenson.

Vettel is reputed to be good in the wet, but when you have the best car and youve got no one to fight, its all good. soon as pressure comes on, he falters like in canada, and its not the first time that once pressure is on him, he falters.

I really dont see how you can say Hamilton and Vettel are better than Alonso in the wet. They are all as good as each other to be honest; they have all won, they have all lost, and they have all made mistakes in the wet. Its natural for it to happen. I mean, hamilton is better why did he throw away second/the win in korea if he is better?

i dont think Massa was on a wet setup.

Alonso wanted to start on Inters. he felt it was inter time, and felt comfortable on the lap to the grid on the inters. but the safety car start put paid to that, and he had to start on wets, when he wanted inters.

it was logical to assume he would not feel as comfortable.

whereas, Massa and Vettel were happier on the wets.

the irony of that weekend was that McLaren ended up crashing in the wet, and on the wet setup, they were actually quicker in the dry. :lol:

#9231 fernandofan2001

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:21

Forgot to mention that before the accident he also matched Hamilton, Räikkönen and Alonso for pace :wave:


How can you compare Massa's times against Alonso and Hamilton who, were in a Slower renault and Slightly slower Mclaren?

Bit confusing. He owned kimi in 2008 and was doing well in 2009. But to be frank, you can only compare in the same car. So a completely pointless post youve made.

#9232 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:57

How can you compare Massa's times against Alonso and Hamilton who, were in a Slower renault and Slightly slower Mclaren?

Bit confusing. He owned kimi in 2008 and was doing well in 2009. But to be frank, you can only compare in the same car. So a completely pointless post youve made.


First of all, I talk about 2007. As far as I´m concerned the 2007 Ferrari and Mclaren were roughly the same speed wise. Sometimes one was faster, sometimes the other. Massa did a good season hampered by reliability, he was a match for the other 3 guys most of the time. If you only want to compare him with people in the same car, fair enough, he was able to match Räikkönen in a year when he drove very well.

About 2008, it´s interesting what you point out. You´re right, the Ferrari was slightly faster. He came super close to beat Lewis, and you could say it wasn´t his driving what prevented him doing so. But you know what? Last year he was again in a slightly faster car than Lewis. And look what happened. In the European GP last week he was again in a faster car (this time comfortably) than Lewis. And look what happened. Definetely, Massa´s not doing as good as before, for whatever reason.

#9233 as65p

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:04

First of all, I talk about 2007. As far as I´m concerned the 2007 Ferrari and Mclaren were roughly the same speed wise. Sometimes one was faster, sometimes the other. Massa did a good season hampered by reliability, he was a match for the other 3 guys most of the time. If you only want to compare him with people in the same car, fair enough, he was able to match Räikkönen in a year when he drove very well.

About 2008, it´s interesting what you point out. You´re right, the Ferrari was slightly faster. He came super close to beat Lewis, and you could say it wasn´t his driving what prevented him doing so. But you know what? Last year he was again in a slightly faster car than Lewis. And look what happened. In the European GP last week he was again in a faster car (this time comfortably) than Lewis. And look what happened. Definetely, Massa´s not doing as good as before, for whatever reason.


You simply bend everything ever so slightly until it fits your opinion, that's all. Far too many assumptions and cross-comparisons in there to result in a definitive conclusion. I could do the same in the other direction and arrive at the result that Räikönnen was never any good. But I won't, because it would be based on the same made-up stuff you used.

#9234 Kohque

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:07

"The proof is in the pudding" is the old saying. One look at his pre vs post accident performances both in very fast championship challenging Ferrari's would indicate that his injury had significant impact to his abilities. From being a dominant force in 2008 he became an almost invisible presence in 2010. The brain injury cannot be ignored as a major factor in Massa's decline imo.

Lets hope he can reclaim some of his former speed this season.

:rotfl:

I think that pudding lacks most of the ingredients. He became invisible before the accident:

Australian 29 Mar 2009 Ferrari 6 Ret 0 0
Malaysian 05 Apr 2009 Ferrari 16 9 0 0
Chinese 19 Apr 2009 Ferrari 13 Ret 0 0
Bahrain 26 Apr 2009 Ferrari 8 14 0 0
Spanish 10 May 2009 Ferrari 4 6 3 3
Monaco 24 May 2009 Ferrari 5 4 5 8
Turkish 07 Jun 2009 Ferrari 7 6 3 11
British 21 Jun 2009 Ferrari 11 4 5 16
German 12 Jul 2009 Ferrari 8 3 6 22

9 races, 22 points and 1 podium... Yeah, I would call him a force of nature... a hurricane gone south.

And then, comparing Massa to Kimi during qualifying, he lost out 6-4 to the Finn. I mean, if his "lost abilities" ever come back, dude, he is going to make RBR look like an HRT.

#9235 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:50

There is an Alonso v Massa thread and this discussion is more approriate there. Copy and paste any posts you need to the other thread as further discussion will be deleted from this one.

#9236 prty

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 18:53

Good words from Chandhok:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/53013.html

#9237 jetalt

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 23:00

In the event of you are fluent in Spanish, here, there is a nice interview:

http://www.formulasa...eonatos-del-mun

Ups, its in English too:

http://www.formulasa...nships-i-wouldn

Edited by jetalt, 30 June 2011 - 23:04.


#9238 kosmos

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 05:21

Why not? I have no problem with Hamilton and neither did we have one at McLaren. I have the absolute respect for him. As long as it wasn't at McLaren, sharing a team with Hamilton would be good.


Looks like Alonso is scared of Hamilton :drunk:

http://www.formulasa...es/hola-paddock



Edited by ForeverF1, 01 July 2011 - 05:39.
There is nothing "versus" about this post. Removed "For the mods, this clearly belongs to the Alonso vs Hamilton ultimate thread, move it to the trash can if you prefer :rolleyes:"


#9239 vsubravet

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 05:38

Looks like Alonso is scared of Hamilton :drunk:

http://www.formulasa...es/hola-paddock


Yeah. FA doesn't have any issues with LH. But these days he should't have any problem with LH even at McLaren (just a hypothetical case) considering LH isn't the toast of the team there ;)

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#9240 topical

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:24

Whats speed got to do with it? In the European GP, Hamilton was way slower than Alonso. So whats your point?

He was slower than massa because he went for a half set up, massa went for a wet setup along with Mclaren. Thats why RB was slower aswell because they went half and half. But when the track bedded in, he was much faster than Felipe before being spun by Jenson.

Vettel is reputed to be good in the wet, but when you have the best car and youve got no one to fight, its all good. soon as pressure comes on, he falters like in canada, and its not the first time that once pressure is on him, he falters.

I really dont see how you can say Hamilton and Vettel are better than Alonso in the wet. They are all as good as each other to be honest; they have all won, they have all lost, and they have all made mistakes in the wet. Its natural for it to happen. I mean, hamilton is better why did he throw away second/the win in korea if he is better?


Where did you hear that Massa went for a wet set up in Canada? Reliable source please.

I never said Hamilton and Vettel are better in every wet race, simply that in general they are better. Compare ths statistics for number of wet races won versus competed in. But I guess we'll just agree to disagree. some fanboys can't accept that their favourite is less than the best in anything...

Edited by topical, 01 July 2011 - 08:26.


#9241 Smile17

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:45

In the event of you are fluent in Spanish, here, there is a nice interview:

http://www.formulasa...eonatos-del-mun

Ups, its in English too:

http://www.formulasa...nships-i-wouldn


That's a really good interview. I enjoyed reading it yesterday. Very nice.

#9242 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 11:15

Where did you hear that Massa went for a wet set up in Canada? Reliable source please.

I never said Hamilton and Vettel are better in every wet race, simply that in general they are better. Compare ths statistics for number of wet races won versus competed in. But I guess we'll just agree to disagree. some fanboys can't accept that their favourite is less than the best in anything...


As a self confessed Alonso fanboy my observation is that he generally appears terribly unlucky with tyre choice in the wet (jumping to full wets, new inters, keeping old inters etc when it's the wrong choice) but since this is a bit of a pattern maybe he's just rubbish at making the right call! From my personal observations he seems to be competent and quick in full wet conditions but not able to match the likes of Vettel and Hamilton but when the conditions are damp and inters or even slicks are the right call he seems to be lightning fast. Hungary '06, Nurburgring '07, China '06 (excluding the dreadful middle part of the race!!!), Korea '10. His great wet weather drives have been in damp inter --> slick conditions. I suppose you could add Aus '10 in there too because he was blisteringly quick compared to Massa in that race too. I can't think of a truly great drive from Alonso in really really wet conditions, Monza '08 is probably the best but he hardly set the world on fire.

#9243 SCUDmissile

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:05

As a self confessed Alonso fanboy my observation is that he generally appears terribly unlucky with tyre choice in the wet (jumping to full wets, new inters, keeping old inters etc when it's the wrong choice) but since this is a bit of a pattern maybe he's just rubbish at making the right call! From my personal observations he seems to be competent and quick in full wet conditions but not able to match the likes of Vettel and Hamilton but when the conditions are damp and inters or even slicks are the right call he seems to be lightning fast. Hungary '06, Nurburgring '07, China '06 (excluding the dreadful middle part of the race!!!), Korea '10. His great wet weather drives have been in damp inter --> slick conditions. I suppose you could add Aus '10 in there too because he was blisteringly quick compared to Massa in that race too. I can't think of a truly great drive from Alonso in really really wet conditions, Monza '08 is probably the best but he hardly set the world on fire.

Spa 08 at the end was chucking it down, but Alonso overtook 4 cars in one lap. dont know what tyre the others were on.

#9244 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:52

They were on dry tyres and Alonso was on wets, in fact if he had made the call to change 1 lap earlier he would have easily won the race.

#9245 Fontainebleau

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 17:40

As a self confessed Alonso fanboy my observation is that he generally appears terribly unlucky with tyre choice in the wet (jumping to full wets, new inters, keeping old inters etc when it's the wrong choice) but since this is a bit of a pattern maybe he's just rubbish at making the right call! From my personal observations he seems to be competent and quick in full wet conditions but not able to match the likes of Vettel and Hamilton but when the conditions are damp and inters or even slicks are the right call he seems to be lightning fast. Hungary '06, Nurburgring '07, China '06 (excluding the dreadful middle part of the race!!!), Korea '10. His great wet weather drives have been in damp inter --> slick conditions. I suppose you could add Aus '10 in there too because he was blisteringly quick compared to Massa in that race too. I can't think of a truly great drive from Alonso in really really wet conditions, Monza '08 is probably the best but he hardly set the world on fire.

Let's look at it from a different point of view: which races do you recall on really wet conditions, and how did Alonso fare relative to other drivers? I am asking because I remember Korea being wet enough  ;) , but you may be right that it wasn't after a certain point.

#9246 Fontainebleau

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 17:42

They were on dry tyres and Alonso was on wets, in fact if he had made the call to change 1 lap earlier he would have easily won the race.

True - but if I am not mistaken before making the tyre change he was ahead of Heidfeld, so not faring bad.

#9247 AlanWake

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 18:57

Every Formula One driver - and especially the champion - owes his success, his money and his popularity to the sport. That is why he ought to give something back - to be open and accessible. That’s why I complained about Fernando Alonso who in my view didn’t represent Formula One well enough.
http://www.formula1....11/6/12234.html

Wth is he saying? I'd say Alonso has brought more FANS to the sport than any other driver on the grid, other than Hamilton, in the last decade!

#9248 Anssi

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 19:47

Every Formula One driver - and especially the champion - owes his success, his money and his popularity to the sport. That is why he ought to give something back - to be open and accessible. That’s why I complained about Fernando Alonso who in my view didn’t represent Formula One well enough.
http://www.formula1....11/6/12234.html

Wth is he saying? I'd say Alonso has brought more FANS to the sport than any other driver on the grid, other than Hamilton, in the last decade!



Basically Bernie Ecclestone wants the drivers to do work for him without a contract and an agreed compensation. He wants the drivers to donate to his cause.

#9249 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:05

Bernie really loves Vettel doesn't he!!

He's never hidden his dislike of Alonso, he seems to be just about the only "informed" person in the paddock who rates Vettel as the out and out best.

#9250 Hole

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:25

Bernie should also surrender to the favors of F1 instead always putting his pocket above everything else, for the shake and the future of Formula 1.