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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#901 ZooL

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:06

"I bet" is hardly any evidence or fact that such blackmailing occurred. Maybe you can provide links to support your opinion?

Its widely reported as fact by the media.
Mosley:

"Mr Dennis did indeed telephone me on 5 August, the day of the Hungarian Grand Prix. He began by saying "we have never had this conversation", which I took to mean it was to be strictly confidential. He then told me that Fernando Alonso had just threatened to give damaging information to the Federation unless Mr Dennis gave him favourable treatment within the team. Mr Dennis said his response to Alonso was "go ahead and give it" and that he, Mr Dennis, was entirely relaxed as, he assured me, there was no such information to give.


Of course we now know that Alonso went ahead and gave it. After 9 months of using it! with emails in spanish to De La Rosa!

But since Alonso fans won't accept the blackmail aspect because it understandably puts Alonso in very bad light lets work backwards.

Why did Dennis phone Mosley and grass up his own team? Some of you obviously have a view that differs from the widely media reported version of events so lets hear its plausibility.

It's gotta be good cause there's no way you cut your own throat like Dennis did.

Just think for a moment what kind of "sportsman" Alonso is.

It is noted that Alonso also never refuted the blackmail aspect despite EVERY media stating the story in that manner.

Edited by ZooL, 22 June 2010 - 14:08.


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#902 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:07

Its widely reported as fact by the media.
Mosley:

so mosley is presenting the view of dennis, and not what really happened, alonso already said that this is not true!

Just think for a moment what kind of "sportsman" Alonso is.

a great one, even if he is mistreated he is still capable of driving superbly (beating hamilton 10:7 on track in 2007)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 14:09.


#903 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:08

and that is an affront against alonso,

No it's not :rolleyes:

Why is every sentence perceived as a slight on Alonso? It's not. McLaren split the strategy on the cars. If there had been an early safety car, there is every possibility that Hamilton could have won. No I'm not saying 'Alonso is shit' I'm saying McLaren took the decision to ensure that one or the other driver would win regardless of how the race went in the early stages.

You understand that this post isn't saying Alonso is shit don't you?

#904 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:08

the unexpected thing was the treatment of the team, not hamilton himself!


You think alonso expected hamilton to be as quick as he was?
I expect alonso thought he was going to macca to be there Number 1 driver and bring home the WDC for then...quite reasonably as I presume that's what macca expected too.
Hamilton's pace and ability is where all the problems start from.
I don't think alonso is fragile enough to be put off his stride just because his team celebrated the other driver more, however combine that with being rattled by a rookie teammate's ability and being unable to rationalise that the same rookie might be able to beat him fair and square and you have a more potent mix.
I don't think either alonso or hamilton's psyche allows them to believe another driver has beaten them in a straight fight in the same equipment.

#905 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:10

and that is an affront against alonso, who was fastest on all three days in monaco!
and the begin of the 2007 saga!


as already mentioned, psychological favourism and vice versa mistreatment cant be measured, and cant be sanctioned by the fia


Are you serious?

Alonso went toe to toe with Schumi and beat him but was beaten by hamilton because of 'psychlogical favouritism'?
Give me a break, the guy is a 2xWDC and was given a WDC capable car.

#906 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:11

Hamilton's pace and ability is where all the problems start from.

so was kovas speed in the first races (2008) and after the crash his speed diminished.

sure hamilton is fast. but would he be that fast too, if he wasnt favoured, or if he was treated like alonso was. I doubt on that.

#907 Gareth

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:13

so mosley is presenting the view of dennis, and not what really happened, alonso already said that this is not true!

Mosley was presenting his account of that telephone conversation. So you have a few options:

1. Mosley's account was made up and the telephone conversation did not go how he stated

2. Mosley's account is true, but Dennis was lying in the telephone conversation

3. Mosley's account is true and Dennis was telling the truth in that telephone conversation

If you think it is options 1 or 2, I would like you to explain why either:

(a) if 1, why Mosley lied on this aspect; or

(b) if 2, why Dennis would call Mosley and make this up - it being what ultimately led to his team being incriminated.


#908 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:13

Alonso went toe to toe with Schumi and beat him but was beaten by hamilton because of 'psychlogical favouritism'?
Give me a break, the guy is a 2xWDC and was given a WDC capable car.

against schumi he drove with a team in his back that supported him
against lewis he drove with a team that mistreated him!
and yes i am serious that the psychology of a driver is one if not the most important thing about being fast!


#909 ZooL

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:13

the unexpected thing was the treatment of the team, not hamilton himself!

Rubbish because the only thing Alonso could not handle that was VERY UNEXPECTED was that Hamilton had too much raw speed. Thats why he got soo desperate like T1 Canda 2007.

#910 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:15

Mosley was presenting his account of that telephone conversation. So you have a few options:

1. Mosley's account was made up and the telephone conversation did not go how he stated

2. Mosley's account is true, but Dennis was lying in the telephone conversation

3. Mosley's account is true and Dennis was telling the truth in that telephone conversation

If you think it is options 1 or 2, I would like you to explain why either:

(a) if 1, why Mosley lied on this aspect; or

(b) if 2, why Dennis would call Mosley and make this up - it being what ultimately led to his team being incriminated.

it doesnt matter what i think, the think is alonso is saying something different and he wasnt proven wrong,
alonso responding on dennis and mosley

#911 muelte

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:15

The team didn't say Alonso was favored, they said the race was fixed in advance, because of the unpredictabilty of the safety car. Alonso was given a light car so that's why he was so fast :rolleyes: Lewis was given a car full of fuel that could anticipate a safety car and jump everybody. But Mclaren didn't expect that Lewis was going to beat Alonso, so they gave him an extra stop and even told him later that he should back off. And that is what pissed Lewis off, because he was sabotaged by the pitcrew.


Go watch that race again. After his pit stop, Alonso was as fast as LH 'on fumes', he had no chance at all to jump him by stopping later :wave:


#912 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:19

Rubbish because the only thing Alonso could not handle that was VERY UNEXPECTED was that Hamilton had too much raw speed.

he handled it well, he beated hamilton 10 times (and hamilton alonso just 7 times, although he was psychologically favoured!)

#913 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:19

against schumi he drove with a team in his back that supported him
against lewis he drove with a team that mistreated him!
and yes i am serious that the psychology of a driver is one if not the most important thing about being fast!


Hmmm, alonso didn't seem to sure the team was supporting him all the time did he?
And mistreated how? By not celebrating as much and then refusing to make him number one driver over his teammate?
Alonso fans who think that he was completely undermined by macca in 2007 and holds no blame are as delusional as hamilton fans who bought the english media line that alonso was the devil. to be honest I bought that line in 2007 but have since revised it and have a lot of respect for alonso.

I'm 100% sure that if alonso was in the same situation again he'd react differently and that he would admit he should have handled it differently (same goes for lewis and he has, same goes for macca and they have).

I wish I could locate a great article I read on the subject that discusses racing driver's psychology and why mclaren were basically stuffed as soon as lewis showed his pace but I can't.

#914 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:20

he handled it well, he beated hamilton 10 times (and hamilton alonso just 7 times, although he was psychologically favoured!)


I'm sure that would be a great comfort to him as he contemplates the 2007 WDC table.
I'm also sure that if lewis didn't have that mechanical problem in brazil he'd have been gutted at winning the WDC but being 10-7 down to alonso.

#915 Simon Says

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:24

so was kovas speed in the first races (2008) and after the crash his speed diminished.

sure hamilton is fast. but would he be that fast too, if he wasnt favoured, or if he was treated like alonso was. I doubt on that.


You're a pretty funny guy. You just make claims that based on 0% evidence as if they were true. While the FIA has refuted any claims of favoritism inside Mclaren. ( and they studied Mclaren how they were dealign with both Alonso and Lewis )

Lewis has beaten Kubica and Vettel in F3 so he's really that good :rolleyes:

Guess which driver has proven to be favoured in the team, and I'm not talking about MS :drunk: It's Alonso. His teammate was even asked by his team to crash the car so that Alonso could win. :rotfl:

That's what I find so funny, trying to attack Lewis based on 0% evidence while Alonso has been proven to be the #1 at Renault.


Edited by Simon Says, 22 June 2010 - 14:27.


#916 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:27

Alonso fans who think that he was completely undermined by macca in 2007 and holds no blame are as delusional as hamilton fans who bought the english media line that alonso was the devil. to be honest I bought that line in 2007 but have since revised it and have a lot of respect for alonso.

nice post, (at least some parts)
the thing is, from the managers point of view. if you want the best out of your team, than treat everybody equally, once an imbalance comes into a team it is very hard to cope with it. the thing started in malaysia with wasnt that imprortant (wouldnt that have happened, what happened in monaco), where the imbalance was obvious and lasted for the whole season.

#917 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:31

You're a pretty funny guy. You just make claims that based on 0% evidence as if they were true. While the FIA has refuted any claims of favoritism inside Mclaren. ( and they studied Mclaren how they were dealign with both Alonso and Lewis )

the funny one is you.
please tell me how can psychological favourism/mistreatment be measured and sanctione by the fia?


edit: Heikki, Jenson and the FIA says Mclaren do not favor Lewis. Except you and the Spanish Media.

maybe they didnt favour hamilton against heikki or against button, but that doesnt mean they didnt favoured lewis in 2007 against alonso.
and if alonso felt so, he knows why, and he stated it. Alonso cant be punished, if the british press didnt print, what alonso was saying on that topic!

#918 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:32

nice post, (at least some parts)
the thing is, from the managers point of view. if you want the best out of your team, than treat everybody equally, once an imbalance comes into a team it is very hard to cope with it. the thing started in malaysia with wasnt that imprortant (wouldnt that have happened, what happened in monaco), where the imbalance was obvious and lasted for the whole season.


By balanced do you mean for example don't tell one driver to move over for another....as mclaren didn't during the US grand prix in 2007? Or perhaps you mean alternate the best strategy as they did throughout the year?

Edited by robefc, 22 June 2010 - 14:32.


#919 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:32

I'm sure that would be a great comfort to him as he contemplates the 2007 WDC table.
I'm also sure that if lewis didn't have that mechanical problem in brazil he'd have been gutted at winning the WDC but being 10-7 down to alonso.

and i am sure if alonso hadnt that technical failure in france, alonso would have won, and of the fia hadnt penalized him in hungary even more comfortably!

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#920 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:35

By balanced do you mean for example don't tell one driver to move over for another....as mclaren didn't during the US grand prix in 2007? Or perhaps you mean alternate the best strategy as they did throughout the year?

i mean with it, never let the impression be widespread that one of your drivers was favoured although he didnt need it, because he was fastest on all 3 days in monaco 2007!
and never let the impression that a win is less worth than a second place as it happened in malaysia 2007
i mean things like that.

#921 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:38

i mean with it, never let the impression be widespread that one of your drivers was favoured although he didnt need it, because he was fastest on all 3 days in monaco 2007!
and never let the impression that a win is less worth than a second place as it happened in malaysia 2007
i mean things like that.


Right,, well it's interesting to see that delusional alonso fans and delusional hamilton fans have something in common as some of the the latter have been examining how much whitmarsh celebrates button's wins compared to hamilton's.

For clarity, I'm not calling alonso or hamilton fans delusional, I'm referring to the minority of their fans who are delusional.

#922 Hollow

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:39

Not the fans but the man himself. In a private conversation he said he was robbed by the Brits. Call it paranoia if you want but I guess he knows better than you.

#923 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:42

Right,, well it's interesting to see that delusional alonso fans and delusional hamilton fans have something in common as some of the the latter have been examining how much whitmarsh celebrates button's wins compared to hamilton's.

and if hamilton were spanish (not perfect speakling and undestanding english (jokes)), and his girlfriend wont be allowed to come into box (like alonsos girlfriedn in australia 2007, i think it was there) thinks would be much more dramatical!


For clarity, I'm not calling alonso or hamilton fans delusional, I'm referring to the minority of their fans who are delusional.

even if you were, it doesnt matter, it is just your opinion! ;)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 14:44.


#924 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:44

Not the fans but the man himself. In a private conversation he said he was robbed by the Brits. Call it paranoia if you want but I guess he knows better than you.


So that would be a private conversation with you then would it?

#925 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:46

and if hamilton were spanish (not perfect speakling and undestanding english (jokes)), and his girlfriend wont be allowed to come into box (like alonsos girlfriedn in australia 2007, i think it was there) thinks would be much more dramatical!


I've never undestood this, does anyone know more about it?

I've heard it several times, that they move to the renault box. Was this purely because the team were applauding hamilton more than alonso?
I find it hard to believe the team were negative about alonso at the time but also hard to believe a family would be so sensitive as to move just because the team were enthusiastic about hamilton doing well? or was it because hamilton overtook alonso?

#926 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:48

I've never undestood this, does anyone know more about it?

I've heard it several times, that they move to the renault box. Was this purely because the team were applauding hamilton more than alonso?
I find it hard to believe the team were negative about alonso at the time but also hard to believe a family would be so sensitive as to move just because the team were enthusiastic about hamilton doing well? or was it because hamilton overtook alonso?

i think it was because of that :rotfl:

#927 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:50

i think it was because of that :rotfl:


I meant the teams reaction to it! :p

#928 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:59

You're a pretty funny guy. You just make claims that based on 0% evidence as if they were true. While the FIA has refuted any claims of favoritism inside Mclaren. ( and they studied Mclaren how they were dealign with both Alonso and Lewis )

Lewis has beaten Kubica and Vettel in F3 so he's really that good :rolleyes:

Guess which driver has proven to be favoured in the team, and I'm not talking about MS :drunk: It's Alonso. His teammate was even asked by his team to crash the car so that Alonso could win. :rotfl:

That's what I find so funny, trying to attack Lewis based on 0% evidence while Alonso has been proven to be the #1 at Renault.


FIA refuted any claims of favoritism in brazil, it was obvious, hamilton had an especial engine for that race, fernando's pace would be nowhere near the top three with a second-race engine, no further action would be required by mclaren in order to favour lewis, differente between engines was enough, where was FIA in the previous races? Fernando was threatened by one of the engineers on how easy to slow an engine down is without been even been noticed by the driver.

both lewis and fernando were favoured, the massive differente relies on renault don't denying it whilst mclaren did

#929 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 14:59

Both parties have stated their positions.
And i think that both parties can agree to disagree on that.
But on one point everbody will agree with me, that 2007 was a hell of a season, it was one of the best seasons i witnessed, and for nothing in the world i would like to have missed it.

please more of seasons like 2007 :up:
and please let alonso and hamilton drive again in one team

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 June 2010 - 15:00.


#930 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:04

I've never undestood this, does anyone know more about it?

I've heard it several times, that they move to the renault box. Was this purely because the team were applauding hamilton more than alonso?
I find it hard to believe the team were negative about alonso at the time but also hard to believe a family would be so sensitive as to move just because the team were enthusiastic about hamilton doing well? or was it because hamilton overtook alonso?


it happened in australia 2007, the situation was unbearable, raquel and alonso's manager had to move on to renault garage to follow the race, according to garcia abad it was very shameful seeing how even fernando's mechanics went nuts when hamilton overtook fernando.
since then they decided to follow the races with their friends in renault, until dennis forbid it claiming it was unnaceptable to see fernando's manager and wife in other team's garage.

#931 robefc

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:05

it happened in australia 2007, the situation was unbearable, raquel and alonso's manager had to move on to renault garage to follow the race, according to garcia abad it was very shameful seeing how even fernando's mechanics went nuts when hamilton overtook fernando.
since then they decided to follow the races with their friends in renault, until dennis forbid it claiming it was unnaceptable to see fernando's manager and wife in other team's garage.


So basically it was the reaction to the overtake that did it?

#932 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:08

So basically it was the reaction to the overtake that did it?


no, the behaviour of everybody in the garage and lack of respect was the reason, and he quoted that example just to remark how embarrasing it has to be to witness how your mechanics cheer the guy in the other side of the garage

#933 undersquare

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:17

no, the behaviour of everybody in the garage and lack of respect was the reason, and he quoted that example just to remark how embarrasing it has to be to witness how your mechanics cheer the guy in the other side of the garage


Sounds like poor Fernando hadn't exactly biult a relationship with his guys.

James Allen did say he basically didn't give them the time of day.

#934 Simon Says

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:19

FIA refuted any claims of favoritism in brazil, it was obvious, hamilton had an especial engine for that race, fernando's pace would be nowhere near the top three with a second-race engine, no further action would be required by mclaren in order to favour lewis, differente between engines was enough, where was FIA in the previous races? Fernando was threatened by one of the engineers on how easy to slow an engine down is without been even been noticed by the driver.

both lewis and fernando were favoured, the massive differente relies on renault don't denying it whilst mclaren did


You really think Mclaren would risk getting kicked out of F1 after their $100 million fine by favouring Lewis? :rolleyes:

There is no evidence that Lewis was favoured, else Mclaren would have recieved further penalities by the FIA. Else the FIA would have make short work of it.

And using some snippets of an interview or the way people cheer is no evidence that Alonso didn't get equal machinery.

An example, everybody at Canada was cheering how Sato overtook Alonso. It's not because people like Sato more than Alonso, it's because it's very unusual for that to happen. So they probably cheered for Lewis, because it's very unusual for a rookie in his first race to overtake a 2 times WDC.

Edited by Simon Says, 22 June 2010 - 15:28.


#935 Simon Says

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:23

Sounds like poor Fernando hadn't exactly biult a relationship with his guys.

James Allen did say he basically didn't give them the time of day.


Could be. I think Alonso is very introverted from what I seen. Jenson and Lewis are a bit more open, especially Lewis jokes around with everybody in the team.

#936 velgajski1

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:29

maybe they didnt favour hamilton against heikki or against button, but that doesnt mean they didnt favoured lewis in 2007 against alonso.
and if alonso felt so, he knows why, and he stated it. Alonso cant be punished, if the british press didnt print, what alonso was saying on that topic!


Quite opposite. They favored Hamilton against Kovalainen, but did not favor him against Alonso. That is my view as someone who was Alonso/McLaren supporter at the start of 2007.

#937 Simon Says

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:37

Quite opposite. They favored Hamilton against Kovalainen, but did not favor him against Alonso. That is my view as someone who was Alonso/McLaren supporter at the start of 2007.


Well, Lewis got favoured with upgrades in 2009 because sometimes Mclaren couldn't get both of their cars with the latest parts and there was no point in giving it to Heikki because he's way too slow in the races and arguably not as good as a development driver like Lewis is. But Heikki always got the same spec as Lewis the next race after an upgrade.

#938 prty

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:39

I've never undestood this, does anyone know more about it?

I've heard it several times, that they move to the renault box. Was this purely because the team were applauding hamilton more than alonso?
I find it hard to believe the team were negative about alonso at the time but also hard to believe a family would be so sensitive as to move just because the team were enthusiastic about hamilton doing well? or was it because hamilton overtook alonso?


Then ask Kovalainen, whose families and friends did the same thing while at McLaren. What a little paranoic Spaniard that Alonso is though!

Sounds like poor Fernando hadn't exactly biult a relationship with his guys.

James Allen did say he basically didn't give them the time of day.


Oh the brainwash... It was actually the oposite. And as Alonso himself said, the problem was with the bosses, not in the garage or with the mechanics.

Edited by prty, 22 June 2010 - 15:41.


#939 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 15:41

Quite opposite. They favored Hamilton against Kovalainen, but did not favor him against Alonso.

we agreed to disagree on that?
alonso was mistreated in mclaren and hamilton favourised in 2007!

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#940 Hollow

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:01

The truth about what happened in 2007 will come out, sooner or later. Not in this forum, though. :)

#941 RossoCorsa

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:14

The truth about what happened in 2007 will come out, sooner or later. Not in this forum, though. :)

The 2007 season is one nasty story, dirty at all sides...

#942 AlanWake

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:18

The truth about what happened in 2007 will come out, sooner or later. Not in this forum, though. :)


When Alonso writes a book on his F1 career :cool:

#943 Ferrari2183

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:27

The truth about what happened in 2007 will come out, sooner or later. Not in this forum, though. :)

Yeah, when we old and ugly... I would've loved to be a fly on the wall in that garage. Spygate, Hamlonso gate, Mclonso gate. Make your pick.

#944 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:37

Sounds like poor Fernando hadn't exactly biult a relationship with his guys.

James Allen did say he basically didn't give them the time of day.


that's why fernando wasn't allowed to take his mechanics out to dinner on Mondays right?

#945 undersquare

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:40

Then ask Kovalainen, whose families and friends did the same thing while at McLaren. What a little paranoic Spaniard that Alonso is though!


link?

Oh the brainwash... It was actually the oposite. And as Alonso himself said, the problem was with the bosses, not in the garage or with the mechanics.


We were just being told the problem was Alonso's own mechanics were cheering for Lewis...

#946 undersquare

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:41

that's why fernando wasn't allowed to take his mechanics out to dinner on Mondays right?


Che? What's that story?

#947 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:41

You really think Mclaren would risk getting kicked out of F1 after their $100 million fine by favouring Lewis? :rolleyes:

There is no evidence that Lewis was favoured, else Mclaren would have recieved further penalities by the FIA. Else the FIA would have make short work of it.

And using some snippets of an interview or the way people cheer is no evidence that Alonso didn't get equal machinery.

An example, everybody at Canada was cheering how Sato overtook Alonso. It's not because people like Sato more than Alonso, it's because it's very unusual for that to happen. So they probably cheered for Lewis, because it's very unusual for a rookie in his first race to overtake a 2 times WDC.


there's no risk of getting kicked out of f1 for favouring one driver

there's plenty of evidence lewis was favoured, plenty

machinery was equal, same car. treatment towards him and his machinery...pretty unequal,

your last point is just an assumption, might be right or might not, but undoubtely is pretty rude and unrespectul to fernando's next of kins

#948 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:45

Could be. I think Alonso is very introverted from what I seen. Jenson and Lewis are a bit more open, especially Lewis jokes around with everybody in the team.


besides the fact fernando is pretty shy, for those who never used a second language can't imagine how complicated it is to build up a relationship in other than your mother tongue, one can communicate more or less his feelings, but there's never ever such things as magnetism as the one gotten between guys using the same language, never. Jokes, styles of life, expressions, it's all so different...

#949 otoelpiloto

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:49

Che? What's that story?


fernando usually shared his metallic money prize after a victory with his mechanics in Renault, they used to gather together Mondays after races, but Mclaren didn't allow him to do so claiming "unnecessary encounters"

#950 Atreiu

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:56

I suggest a group hug for Alonso.
To help him forget to oh so terrible treatment at McLaren.
The chosen one did not deserve that. Oh no.

Edited by Atreiu, 22 June 2010 - 16:56.