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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#10451 puxanando

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 17:44

Thumbs down... to Vettel?? Why exactly??


Alonso admitted he had been a bit too hard while squeezing Vettel onto the grass and apologised in the post-race news conference.

Alonso's apologies weren't enough because post-race Vettel officially asked the stewards to look into the incident.


Hamilton didn't went after race to the stewards & he was a victim of more harsh move from Schumacher!
Why he went to the stewards? What he hoped! Penalty for Alonso in the next race?


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#10452 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 17:57

here....

:down: Vettel

Come on, it very likely was a RBR decision, I am sure that Vettel had other things in his mind.

#10453 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 18:03

Hamilton didn't went after race to the stewards & he was a victim of more harsh move from Schumacher!
Why he went to the stewards? What he hoped! Penalty for Alonso in the next race?

Yes, why not? It's not like Alonso hasn't called for stewards to look into something another driver has done, is it? In this case, Vettel considers Alonso pushed too hard and thought the stewards will take a view. I do not expect there will be any punishment because it doesn't look unfair, but maybe it felt unfair to Vettel?

Why so keen to ensure he has no right of complaint?

#10454 schubacca

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 18:17

FA is the most complete driver on the grid. He is punching way above his weight.

I got no problems with his driving. He gets paid millions by Ferrari to drive hard.



#10455 K-One

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:21

Alonso was as hard on Vettel as he could be without getting dirty. I think that's good. Alonso has never fought dirty on track and I hope it stays that way.


Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...

#10456 ferrarijon123

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:25

Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...

No-one's perfect. Most drivers have been dirty at some points in their careers.

#10457 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:39

I know people say will say it's different because of the speed and the grass but how is that move theoretically any different to Hamilton crowding Webber off the track at Germany? Alonso gave Webber room which I actually praised him for at the time because I felt Hamilton's move was dirty on that occassion. Others critiscised Alonso for not crowding Webber off the track like Hamilton did and now he's getting critiscised for making Vettel get half a wheel on the grass. The move on Vettel was way less extreme than what Hamilton did to Webber at Germany but I do feel it was right on the limit of what is acceptable. I believe he probably intended to give him a Red Bull and little more which he basically did but maybe pushed it a little too far.

#10458 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:57

Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...

No, never dirty. I refer you to Webber's comment about needing somebody like Alonso in the other car if you want to try an overtaking in Eau Rouge.

#10459 puxanando

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 20:07

And Alonso didn't went to the stewards after race!
This is the different of limo-driver & the spaniard! :wave:

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#10460 puxanando

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 20:59

Vettel with "grass-problems"!

:rotfl: :rotfl:

#10461 Atomicus

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 21:19

Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...


No offence but If you think that's dirty enough to put down the fairness of a current driver is that you started following F1 in 2003 or you just don't like the guy. Because those things you posted is nothing in comparison to the tricks that former racers used to do, actually it even looks ridiculous in comparison to the recent Montoya-Schumacher fights from the early '00..

And Alonso didn't went to the stewards after race!
This is the different of limo-driver & the spaniard! :wave:


Woha, I had forgotten about that.

Edited by Atomicus, 12 September 2011 - 21:31.


#10462 Sheik

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 21:38

Braketesting Doorbos? Running at full speed in Brazil when yellow flags were waved? Yesterday pushing Vettel off track?

Yep, never dirty on track...


Is this the best you can find on him in a decade in F1? Yep, he really is a dirty driver... :drunk:

#10463 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 21:42

And Alonso didn't went to the stewards after race!

It actually looks more spectacular here:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Look at where the two cars are pointing - straight into the wall. I wonder how both drivers kept their cool!

#10464 Watkins74

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 21:46

Vettel is a smart man, he knows no penalty will be given to Fernando for this race. He is just laying the foundation for the next time it happens.

Clever boy.

#10465 NZX_Lorne

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 22:19

I could easily be wrong, but when I watched the race I thought Alonso left "just enough" room for Vettel to stay on the track. It seemed to me the aggressive move caused Vettel to over-react a bit (which is understandable) and that resulted in him getting his wheels on the grass. Is there a link to a replay someone can post?

#10466 Sheik

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 22:32

I could easily be wrong, but when I watched the race I thought Alonso left "just enough" room for Vettel to stay on the track. It seemed to me the aggressive move caused Vettel to over-react a bit (which is understandable) and that resulted in him getting his wheels on the grass. Is there a link to a replay someone can post?




Judge it for yourself, but I dont think there was enough room.

#10467 as65p

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 22:41

I would agree that it wasn't really enough room Alonso left. Then again, remembering the start of Hockenheim last year I'd say the score is even now between them.

#10468 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 22:47

I would agree that it wasn't really enough room Alonso left. Then again, remembering the start of Hockenheim last year I'd say the score is even now between them.

I don't think it is so much a matter of getting even, but a matter of agreeing on what is acceptable and what isn't. In that sense, Monza 11 does not look worse than Germany 10, so I would think both were harsh, but within limits.

My question on Monza 11 would be - yes, there isn't enough room, but isn't that what one should expect when following a car into a turn? I mean, if Alonso does not have to give the racing line, why does Vettel expect him to do so? Why start the overtaking in such a compromised point, and then complain that it was compromised?

Edited by Fontainebleau, 12 September 2011 - 22:47.


#10469 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 22:52

Alonso is on his right by lefting Vettel no room,it was a position battle in Monza,the home of his team

#10470 as65p

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 23:01

I don't think it is so much a matter of getting even...


I wasn't implying that Alonso had that in mind, far from it. It just so happened that, as of now, both did one pretty harsh moves towards the other in the space of a year.

... but a matter of agreeing on what is acceptable and what isn't. In that sense, Monza 11 does not look worse than Germany 10, so I would think both were harsh, but within limits.


Yeah, could agree with that, although I reckon bot were pretty marginal. Just like the MS vs. Hamilton thing.

My question on Monza 11 would be - yes, there isn't enough room, but isn't that what one should expect when following a car into a turn? I mean, if Alonso does not have to give the racing line, why does Vettel expect him to do so? Why start the overtaking in such a compromised point, and then complain that it was compromised?


That's arguing from Alonso point, and fine as such. Vettel would probably argue that he stuck his nose in early enough to deserve recognition (and space), which is also somewhat reasonable, I think. In the end it just played out fine, Alonso acknowledged that it was a bit too close for comfort.

Considering that, and that Vettel did get through unharmed, and that he has done comparable stuff before, I find the complaint to the stewards a wee bit unnecessary (although I'm not sure where it really came from, Vettel himself or the team).


#10471 NZX_Lorne

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 23:34



Judge it for yourself, but I dont think there was enough room.

Yeah, seeing it there, no question Alonso forced Vettel onto the grass. . .

#10472 NZX_Lorne

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 23:43

Considering the speed and how far alongside Vettel was, I think this is one of those cases where even Alonso would agree that you have to leave a car width of tarmac.

#10473 Infinityl

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 23:47

Im not agree, i think Alonso always left enough room to Vettel.

Onboard camera is not the best to see because room seems smaller.

Posted Image

This is just when Vettel start to go out, seems Alonso is pushing him out and there is no room.

Posted Image

This one is taken at the same time, frontal view.

Anothers two images taken at the same time ...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Alonso left enought room, not a lot of room, just enought.




#10474 Watkins74

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 23:52

I am a big Alonso fan but Fernando gave him a squeeze job. Fernando has a good rep as a fair driver so I think this isolated incident is forgivable.

#10475 engel

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:08

It was a squeeze but not an extreme squeeze, I think Alonso left enough room when he became aware of the fact Vettel was on the outside

#10476 cardin

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:25

I don't think it is so much a matter of getting even, but a matter of agreeing on what is acceptable and what isn't. In that sense, Monza 11 does not look worse than Germany 10, so I would think both were harsh, but within limits.

My question on Monza 11 would be - yes, there isn't enough room, but isn't that what one should expect when following a car into a turn? I mean, if Alonso does not have to give the racing line, why does Vettel expect him to do so? Why start the overtaking in such a compromised point, and then complain that it was compromised?

That's a funny way of understanding racing.

#10477 cardin

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:31

I wasn't implying that Alonso had that in mind, far from it. It just so happened that, as of now, both did one pretty harsh moves towards the other in the space of a year.



Yeah, could agree with that, although I reckon bot were pretty marginal. Just like the MS vs. Hamilton thing.



That's arguing from Alonso point, and fine as such. Vettel would probably argue that he stuck his nose in early enough to deserve recognition (and space), which is also somewhat reasonable, I think. In the end it just played out fine, Alonso acknowledged that it was a bit too close for comfort.

Considering that, and that Vettel did get through unharmed, and that he has done comparable stuff before, I find the complaint to the stewards a wee bit unnecessary (although I'm not sure where it really came from, Vettel himself or the team).


There's no such thing as 'somewhat reasonable' as there's no such thing as somewhat pregnant.
Having said that I agree with your last paragraph; the outcome of the overtake is enough proof Alonso gave enough room.

Edited by cardin, 13 September 2011 - 00:36.


#10478 JKTRacing

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:51

If he managed to get thro, he had enough room, its not the first time a driver has to go on the grass to finish a risky move. (check lap 1, Alonso did exactly that)



#10479 Atomicus

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:55

If he managed to get thro, he had enough room, its not the first time a driver has to go on the grass to finish a risky move. (check lap 1, Alonso did exactly that)

True, on starting he had to put wheels on the grass, tho Alonso didn't cry about it after the race...

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#10480 Oho

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 05:45

If he managed to get thro, he had enough room, its not the first time a driver has to go on the grass to finish a risky move. (check lap 1, Alonso did exactly that)


Indeed actually he went entirely out of bounds of the track to pass two cars, harks back to Spa 2009 and all those cries to disqualify Räikkönen.

Edited by Oho, 13 September 2011 - 07:02.


#10481 kosmos

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 06:18

Alonso never changed direction and never pushed Vettel into the grass, he was running straight, he didn't left enough room to let Vettel overtake?, sure, but that's what dirvers do, they don't roll the red carpet for others to pass. In the opposite side Vettel pushed Alonso into the pitwall for many seconds in Germany, so I don't get why Vettel is complaining to the steward, his move in that race was dirty, Alonso's move in Monza was hard but fair.

Vettel was behind and he did see that there was no room for him to pass with the 4 wheels running in the tarmac, it was his choice to put the car in the grass, he could have overtaked Alonso a little later with zero risk, but he choose to be the hero, good for him because the move was successful but it was Vettel who put his race in risk and not Alonso.

#10482 NZX_Lorne

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 06:43

Looking at it again more closely, I take back what I said about FA pushing Vettel onto the grass. I think it was more a case of Fernando taking his line and it being a very fast section where things happen very quickly. As soon as Fernando realized where Vettel was and that he wasn't giving him enough room, he gave him more but his reaction wasn't quick enough to spare Vettel from taking to the grass.

#10483 kryziuotis

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 07:28

Alonso left enought room, not a lot of room, just enought.

At first I also thought that Alonso forced Vettel onto the grass but after watching this replay I can say, that he left enough space. Alonso always keeps the same distance from the track border, and Vettel simply runs a bit wide at one point and ends on the grass.

#10484 kosmos

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:48

Martin Brundle at it again, his talking about the "incident" with Vettel.

I suspect he was still hurting from two weeks ago when Vettel's team-mate Mark Webber drove around the outside of him at Eau Rouge.


http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/14883755.stm

:lol: , I suspect Brundle was still hurting for all the times Alonso has denied him an interview in his pitwalks.

#10485 as65p

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 09:23

There's no such thing as 'somewhat reasonable' as there's no such thing as somewhat pregnant.


You might want to rethink that. Of course there are degrees to reasonability, as opposed to pregnancy. Oh well, maybe it was just your subconscious not allowing you to agree with me about one point, at least not without disagreeing about something else at the same time. :D

#10486 puxanando

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 09:50

Alonso pleased with 3. place

" A little bit on the grass......." :lol:

Edited by puxanando, 13 September 2011 - 09:53.


#10487 Fontainebleau

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 09:55

Martin Brundle at it again, his talking about the "incident" with Vettel.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/14883755.stm

:lol: , I suspect Brundle was still hurting for all the times Alonso has denied him an interview in his pitwalks.

I suspect you are right  ;)

For some reason, Brundle has been trying to misplace Alonso's reaction to that overtaking from the first moment (How did he do it? Why did Alonso yield? Is Alonso thinking: "Next time, buddy, you'll be in the hedge"? http://news.bbc.co.u...e/14711653.stm), regardless Webber acknowledging that he felt safe because he knew Alonso would be fair.

#10488 Fontainebleau

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 10:04

Indeed actually he went entirely out of bounds of the track to pass two cars, harks back to Spa 2009 and all those cries to disqualify Räikkönen.

Entirely different situation, though. Alonso gets paralell with Hamilton and Vettel before moving right as the other two cars move that way too; Raikkonen chose not to brake for the turn but to take a wider line outside the track.

#10489 Oho

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 11:01

Entirely different situation, though. Alonso gets paralell with Hamilton and Vettel before moving right as the other two cars move that way too; Raikkonen chose not to brake for the turn but to take a wider line outside the track.


Bollocks, Räikkönen did brake but he aborted his turn in when he judged, correctly I might add, that he did not have room to complete the turn on track without slowing down dramatically. He then used the run off area and kept the pedal to the metal. More or less exactly what Alonso did. Vettel crowded Hamilton to the right, who in turn crowded Alonso to the right and out of bounds, but instead of falling back, just like Räikkönen, Alonso kept the pedal to the metal and passed both Vettel and Hamilton while out of bounds. I have problem with neither, just pointed out the double standard.

Edited by Oho, 13 September 2011 - 11:07.


#10490 BenettonB192

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 12:24

Martin Brundle at it again, his talking about the "incident" with Vettel.



http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/14883755.stm

:lol: , I suspect Brundle was still hurting for all the times Alonso has denied him an interview in his pitwalks.


Brundle seems to have some double standards. Remember that Top Gear bit about Senna where he glorified him for this kind of driving?
Schumacher gets harshly criticized for the same stuff.

From my perspective Alonsos move was on the edge but not over it. Striezel Stuck found the right words in his column. The drivers are there to battle for positions and not on a coach trip.

They can ask themselfes if they did something wrong if it ends in tears but it didnt and the overtake worked so therefore it was great racing.

#10491 Fontainebleau

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 12:36

Bollocks, Räikkönen did brake but he aborted his turn in when he judged, correctly I might add, that he did not have room to complete the turn on track without slowing down dramatically. He then used the run off area and kept the pedal to the metal. More or less exactly what Alonso did. Vettel crowded Hamilton to the right, who in turn crowded Alonso to the right and out of bounds, but instead of falling back, just like Räikkönen, Alonso kept the pedal to the metal and passed both Vettel and Hamilton while out of bounds. I have problem with neither, just pointed out the double standard.

And that is precisely the point: he chose not to slow down when he was behind two cars. Look, check the video and then tell me again that it was the same thing.

And for the record, I am a Raikkonen supporter, but I am not blind to what he did there and why some complained.

#10492 Clatter

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 12:39

Brundle seems to have some double standards. Remember that Top Gear bit about Senna where he glorified him for this kind of driving?
Schumacher gets harshly criticized for the same stuff.


From my perspective Alonsos move was on the edge but not over it. Striezel Stuck found the right words in his column. The drivers are there to battle for positions and not on a coach trip.

They can ask themselfes if they did something wrong if it ends in tears but it didnt and the overtake worked so therefore it was great racing.


I think a significant point is that some of the rules have changed since Senna was driving. You can't glorify a driver if he is breaking the rules.

#10493 Atomicus

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 13:48

Martin Brundle at it again, his talking about the "incident" with Vettel.



http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/14883755.stm

:lol: , I suspect Brundle was still hurting for all the times Alonso has denied him an interview in his pitwalks.


This Brundle is a demagogue. :rolleyes:

#10494 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 13:59

Brundle has an opinion like anyone else and although he is expected to give a balanced account of what he see's, the BBc also encourage he share his opinions too. This is the reason we see DC and MB disagreeing from time to time and Jake, Eddie, and DC after the race discuss things from their own individual viewpoints. If they all agreed on everything it would be boring to watch. We all know from discussing the sport on this board that people see incidents from different angles and we discuss things in depth. Why are commentators expected to often only support the individuals viewpoint? Theres always going to be someone who disagree's with them, and the programme displays this perfectly. The only way to please everyone would be for them not to comment at all with fear of offending. "No sorry David I'd rather not comment on that etc etc"..... Its these opinions that enable the viewers to get a deeper understanding of what is going on. In that article Brundle shares his experience of speaking to the Race Director and asking a question about the stewards powers. We wouldn't get that if Brundle was expected to stare down a barrel everytime he shares his opinion.

We should support this approach whether we always agree with the stance or not.

#10495 Fontainebleau

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 14:07

Brundle has an opinion like anyone else and although he is expected to give a balanced account of what he see's, the BBc also encourage he share his opinions too. This is the reason we see DC and MB disagreeing from time to time and Jake, Eddie, and DC after the race discuss things from their own individual viewpoints. If they all agreed on everything it would be boring to watch. We all know from discussing the sport on this board that people see incidents from different angles and we discuss things in depth. Why are commentators expected to often only support the individuals viewpoint? Theres always going to be someone who disagree's with them, and the programme displays this perfectly. The only way to please everyone would be for them not to comment at all with fear of offending. "No sorry David I'd rather not comment on that etc etc"..... Its these opinions that enable the viewers to get a deeper understanding of what is going on. In that article Brundle shares his experience of speaking to the Race Director and asking a question about the stewards powers. We wouldn't get that if Brundle was expected to stare down a barrel everytime he shares his opinion.

We should support this approach whether we always agree with the stance or not.

In general, when it comes to racing and technical matters I agree with your view. But those opinions should not extend to guessing a driver's "inner motives" for a move, particularly if said opinion is going to paint the driver in a bad light without any basis.

#10496 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 15:00

Surely, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the problem is that some people have more media power than others. Hence, more people are listening to them.

#10497 Atomicus

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 15:01

In general, when it comes to racing and technical matters I agree with your view. But those opinions should not extend to guessing a driver's "inner motives" for a move, particularly if said opinion is going to paint the driver in a bad light without any basis.


Exactly. There is a difference between exciting debate with nice and different points of view, and being a demagogue who appeal to feelings to create sensationalist garbage just to sell controversy...

Saying Alonso did that to Vettel because of being bitter of the pass Webber did on Alonso two weeks ago besides doubling is tasteless and cheap

#10498 puxanando

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 16:35

Saying Alonso did that to Vettel because of being bitter of the pass Webber did on Alonso two weeks ago besides doubling is tasteless and cheap


:up:
And now he says that he still will be more harsh in the last races with Vettel............ :p

#10499 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 16:58

So when both DC and MB said along the lines of Lewis being annoyed inside his helmet, its the wrong thing to say because in reality they don't know. Pundits and commentators make judgements/statements about this sort of thing all the time and Brundle is quite gushing about Alonso most of the time. It fills the gaps in the commentary and if they consider every sector of fans, the coverage would go very stale. I don't agree with alot of the things he says about Lewis but I accept it at face value. Just my opinion at the end of the day and neither of us are totally right in this arguement because it is what it is. A matter of opinion. :)

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#10500 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 17:18

Martin isnt the problem. Ted Kravtiz brought it up on the F1 forum. Martin is a great commentator imo, apart from when MS comes into it. :lol:

he is the only one that actually thinks like us, the fans.