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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#11001 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:52

i agree, i'm just saying that alonso, good as he is , is not quite prost+senna...

i only worry about the dirty side of the track tomorrow. if alonso gets stuck behind rosberg he'll be 10 seconds off the lead within 2 or 3 leaps. i hope he can start well and at least maintain position or perhaps even jump webber.

Vettel will probably get a grid penalty... I don't see how the FIA can let this go as they will be setting a bad precedent.

But that moves Massa over to the dirty side which wouldn't be fair as he did enough to beat Alonso in quali.

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#11002 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:58

Vettel will probably get a grid penalty... I don't see how the FIA can let this go as they will be setting a bad precedent.

But that moves Massa over to the dirty side which wouldn't be fair as he did enough to beat Alonso in quali.

i hope not, coz that would be ridiculous especially in comaprison to all those situations that hamilton was not really penalised for.

#11003 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:08

Well, Vettel didn't get a penalty...

#11004 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:14

Well, Vettel didn't get a penalty...

right decision.

#11005 Fontainebleau

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:14

A bit OT - I just found this website and thought it useful in terms of stats and results. I am posting it here before I forget where I saved the link  ;)

To make it more Alonso-related, I am quoting the link to his teammates statistics, but from here you can go anywhere in the website. And before anyone says it, yes, the website uses a "comparison points" system that not everybody will share

http://f1-facts.com/...m-mates/FAlonso

#11006 Watkins74

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:16

Did Alonso get his 2nd run in? I didn't see what happened on his last hot lap....anything?

Tire race or not he needs to Qualify ahead of Massa.

edit: Thanks for the info YH :wave:

Edited by Watkins74, 15 October 2011 - 14:22.


#11007 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:21

Did Alonso get his 2nd run in? I didn't see what happened on his last hot lap....anything?

Tire race or not he needs to Qualify ahead of Massa.

in the first sector he was not fast enough, so he aborted the lap to save tyres.

#11008 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:40

How can the 'perfect symbiosis' of Prost and Senna be outqualified by a good for nothing driver 4 out of the last 6 races ? There's something wrong there.

#11009 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:53

How can the 'perfect symbiosis' of Prost and Senna be outqualified by a good for nothing driver 4 out of the last 6 races ? There's something wrong there.

nothing wrong with it, massa is fast in qualy, as he had shown against raikkonen.
the general domination of alonso against massa in qualy 26:7 is great.
in the races it is even more impressive 27:6.


#11010 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:58

nothing wrong with it, massa is fast in qualy, as he had shown against raikkonen.
the general domination of alonso against massa in qualy 26:7 is great.
in the races it is even more impressive 27:6.

So, you think Senna would be outqualified by Massa that many times in a season ?

#11011 One

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:05

Have Fernando set up his car for Race or Rain? Strange to find him at Six.

If it were, given position of Massa, putting rhe car in the equal condition may have him won a highergrid position. Yet again it may not give him a higher race result... Looking forward....


#11012 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:06

So, you think Senna would be outqualified by Massa that many times in a season ?

why not?
senna was outqualified by de angelis 3 times in 1985!
and four times by berger in 1990!

#11013 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:11

why not?
senna was outqualified by de angelis 3 times in 1985!
and four times by berger in 1990!

Yes, but it's not only Senna we are talking about here, it's the best of Senna + the best of Prost.

#11014 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:14

Yes, but it's not only Senna we are talking about here, it's the best of Senna + the best of Prost.

we were talking about that?
maybe we are starting now, but we hadnt yet.
till now you asked me if i think that massa could have outqualified senna as often as alonso, and i said yes, coz already other (weaker drivers) did that to senna.

now you wanna debate why i think that alonso is the perfect symbiosis of senna and prost, right?

#11015 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:26

we were talking about that?
maybe we are starting now, but we hadnt yet.
till now you asked me if i think that massa could have outqualified senna as often as alonso, and i said yes, coz already other (weaker drivers) did that to senna.

now you wanna debate why i think that alonso is the perfect symbiosis of senna and prost, right?


To refresh your memory:

i never said he is senna+prost. but he is the perfect symbiosis of intelligent and aggresive driving (when needed) the one attribute described prost and the other senna.

my worry, too.
the start tommorow will be very important, so let us keep our fingers crossed.



How can the 'perfect symbiosis' of Prost and Senna be outqualified by a good for nothing driver 4 out of the last 6 races ? There's something wrong there.


And no, I would never wanted to debate something as ridiculous as your statement that Alonso is the perfect symbiosis of Prost and Senna.

Edited by cardin, 15 October 2011 - 15:27.


#11016 topical

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:28

Yes, but it's not only Senna we are talking about here, it's the best of Senna + the best of Prost.


You lose the argument so you change the topic. Pathetic. YellowHelmet answered your charge very strongly with Senna's statistics eg against Berger, and you clearly have no response.

Edited by topical, 15 October 2011 - 15:30.


#11017 topical

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:29

why not?
senna was outqualified by de angelis 3 times in 1985!
and four times by berger in 1990!


Interesting statistics! I admit I'm surprised. If Senna can be outqualified 4 times by Berger in a season then Alonso 4 times by Massa really isn't too bad.

#11018 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:33

You lose the argument so you change the topic. Pathetic. YellowHelmet answered your charge very strongly with Senna's statistics eg against Berger, and you clearly have no response.

Another one who has trouble following a straight line.

#11019 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:35

To refresh your memory:

i was not talking with you at that point, so you dont have to refresh my memory.





And no, I would never wanted to debate something as ridiculous as your statement that Alonso is the perfect symbiosis of Prost and Senna.

i'm fine with it.

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#11020 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:36

Interesting statistics! I admit I'm surprised. If Senna can be outqualified 4 times by Berger in a season then Alonso 4 times by Massa really isn't too bad.

I was going to post that all others Alonso fans must have cringed when he posted that perfect symbiosis absurd. Guess I'm wrong.

#11021 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:38

i was not talking with you at that point, so you dont have to refresh my memory.






i'm fine with it.

Right, right. Anyways, i didn't really want to debate with you, it's useless.

#11022 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:40

Have Fernando set up his car for Race or Rain? Strange to find him at Six.

If it were, given position of Massa, putting rhe car in the equal condition may have him won a highergrid position. Yet again it may not give him a higher race result... Looking forward....

no rain setup, he just hadnt finished his second try in q3, coz he was not fast enough in first sector.

Edited by YellowHelmet, 15 October 2011 - 15:51.


#11023 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:42

I was going to post that all others Alonso fans must have cringed when he posted that perfect symbiosis absurd. Guess I'm wrong.

sure you are wrong, coz it is not an absurd.
simple as that.

#11024 Disgrace

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:52

So Alonso scrapped his second run, so what? He's infinitely quicker than Massa in the race, undoubtedly had the potential to be quicker in Q3 had the run come together, Massa will probably end up letting him past anyway, so it's hardly going to be relevant to his race.

Edit: derp.

Edited by Disgrace, 15 October 2011 - 15:59.


#11025 topical

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:53

I was going to post that all others Alonso fans must have cringed when he posted that perfect symbiosis absurd. Guess I'm wrong.


Actually, if you had any interest in reading posts properly instead of trolling, you would see that I already said to YellowHelmet that I don't think Alonso is anything like a perfect symbiosis of Senna and Prost. So you're wrong again. But that's not even what we're discussing here.

Your question was: would Senna have been out qualified 4 times in a season by a driver like Massa? And we now know Senna was out qualified 4 times in one season by Berger, a driver most would agree is of a Massa-type standard. So, quite simply, you lose the argument.


#11026 topical

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:54

So Alonso scrapped his second run, so what? He's infinitely quicker than Massa in the race, undoubtedly had the potential to be quicker in Q3 had the run come together, Massa will probably end up letting him past anyway, so it's hardly going to be relevant to his race. If anything, it may be a blessing as he's found himself fortunately on the clean side of the grid.


How do you reach that conclusion? He's on the even side, everyone has been saying that's the dirty side of the grid.

#11027 flowerdew

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:57

And no, I would never wanted to debate something as ridiculous as your statement that Alonso is the perfect symbiosis of Prost and Senna.


Well, if it was just Senna's hypothetical qualifying performances that you're here to talk about, then I think the ball is back in your court? And if you really don't care to talk about the symbiosis comment, then I'd suggest you stop bringing it up; otherwise people might be understandably confused as to your intentions.

#11028 Disgrace

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:58

My mistake. I totally forgot about the invisible Webber. :drunk:

#11029 topical

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 16:03

My mistake. I totally forgot about the invisible Webber. :drunk:


My hope is that Webber will make his usual tardy start, move across to block Massa and that will let Alonso past them both.
Nightmare scenario: Alonso starts badly and slips behind Rosberg.
Because I didn't see qualy and with the safety car start last year I don't remember: is it a long or short run down to turn 1? I hope a long one, those are always more exciting and allow for more opportunities.

#11030 YellowHelmet

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 16:03

Actually, if you had any interest in reading posts properly instead of trolling, you would see that I already said to YellowHelmet that I don't think Alonso is anything like a perfect symbiosis of Senna and Prost. So you're wrong again. But that's not even what we're discussing here.

you have to be exact on that: you dont think it yet  ;)
alonso will also convince you.

now without joking:
this season is really a bless to analyse alonso, i know he is not fighting for the championship, but from a racing purists position, this season is so wonderful to analyse.
his aggresivness when it is possible his calmness and intelligence when it is needed (and that in such a slow car, compared to the two best cars).
call it how you want it, but enjoy it as what it is. in most races this year, he produced a beauty, with an almost perfect balance of intelligence and aggresiveness.
i love it. (sure i would rather watch him fighting for the championship, but as formula1 is a material-dependend series, it is necessary to watch it from a racing purist position)

#11031 BalazsF1

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 16:42

you have to be exact on that: you dont think it yet ;)
alonso will also convince you.

now without joking:
this season is really a bless to analyse alonso, i know he is not fighting for the championship, but from a racing purists position, this season is so wonderful to analyse.
his aggresivness when it is possible his calmness and intelligence when it is needed (and that in such a slow car, compared to the two best cars).
call it how you want it, but enjoy it as what it is. in most races this year, he produced a beauty, with an almost perfect balance of intelligence and aggresiveness.
i love it. (sure i would rather watch him fighting for the championship, but as formula1 is a material-dependend series, it is necessary to watch it from a racing purist position)


Completely agree with you.
Alonso's intelligence and aggresiveness make him the most complex and best driver in the world. I wish he had a good car next year and he will enchant us. :)

#11032 cardin

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 18:16

Well, if it was just Senna's hypothetical qualifying performances that you're here to talk about, then I think the ball is back in your court? And if you really don't care to talk about the symbiosis comment, then I'd suggest you stop bringing it up; otherwise people might be understandably confused as to your intentions.


Here it is again, my first intervention on this subject.

How can the 'perfect symbiosis' of Prost and Senna be outqualified by a good for nothing driver 4 out of the last 6 races ? There's something wrong there.


Thank you for your suggestion. It was dully noted... and discarded. As for the confusion about my intentions; I just wanted to point out the absurd of his proposition. Not that I have any hope, with my explanation, to clear up the confusion on the heads of the generally confused people on this thread.

Edited by cardin, 15 October 2011 - 18:17.


#11033 flowerdew

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 19:30

Thank you for your suggestion. It was dully noted... and discarded. As for the confusion about my intentions; I just wanted to point out the absurd of his proposition.


Oh, no worries, I think most readers understood your feelings on the comment the first time around.

#11034 AlanWake

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 21:56

Singapore aside where he was sublime, Alonso has been disappointing in qualifying lately... He needs to recover the form that made him almost unbeatable in the first half of the season and 2010.

Anyway, the race is what counts at the end of the day. Given he has nothing to lose, at least for once, I just want to see an aggressive Alonso that can make the race entertaining for us :) I don't care if he finishes or not, I just want he enjoys the race and pushes like the hell at every moment without fear to nobody and nothing!

I say this because compared to Hamilton, Vettel or M.Schumacher, I think he has been extremely soft on his fellow drivers this year (opening doors for others right, left, and center :well: ), so in that sense, he needs to wake up.

Edited by AlanWake, 15 October 2011 - 21:58.


#11035 engel

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 22:04

I say this because compared to Hamilton, Vettel or M.Schumacher, I think he has been extremely soft on his fellow drivers this year (opening doors for others right, left, and center :well: ), so in that sense, he needs to wake up.


I disagree, it's one of Alonso's strengths IMO, knowing when it's worth to fight and when fighting will hurt him more than the guy he's fighting. Fighting Webber in Singapore for example might have left him exposed to Hamilton. And Webber would still have gotten through, the speed differential was too great.

#11036 Skellen

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 22:05

I say this because compared to Hamilton, Vettel or M.Schumacher, I think he has been extremely soft on his fellow drivers this year (opening doors for others right, left, and center :well: ), so in that sense, he needs to wake up.


Yeah, like for Vettel in Mozna.



#11037 Skellen

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 22:06

I disagree, it's one of Alonso's strengths IMO, knowing when it's worth to fight and when fighting will hurt him more than the guy he's fighting. Fighting Webber in Singapore for example might have left him exposed to Hamilton. And Webber would still have gotten through, the speed differential was too great.


:up:

My thoughts exactly.

#11038 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 22:14

He's appeared soft in a few races because of DRS, the passes were literally unstoppable. Other times he has weighed up the risk v reward and he knows there is no point losing heaps of time fighting the inevitable. I think if you look at Hamilton and Schumacher's results you'd have to agree that Alonso has got that balance right.

#11039 Fontainebleau

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 22:44

I disagree, it's one of Alonso's strengths IMO, knowing when it's worth to fight and when fighting will hurt him more than the guy he's fighting. Fighting Webber in Singapore for example might have left him exposed to Hamilton. And Webber would still have gotten through, the speed differential was too great.

I would add what Webber said about him after his Eau Rouge move: "It takes two guys doing a good job to get all that right obviously, so it's more rewarding when you can do it with someone like Fernando because he's a world-class driver and he knows when enough is enough", which I understand as him not going beyond the line of what is acceptable and knowing when the position is lost. Obviously, that gives comfort to other drivers and allows them to try moves when, again in Webber's words, their "attitude might have been a bit different with someone else". But I don't consider that a weakness in a driver, and definitely it is an advantage for us F1 followers who are treated to daring moves we would otherwise not see.

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#11040 fabr68

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 00:01

I disagree, it's one of Alonso's strengths IMO, knowing when it's worth to fight and when fighting will hurt him more than the guy he's fighting. Fighting Webber in Singapore for example might have left him exposed to Hamilton. And Webber would still have gotten through, the speed differential was too great.


Very true. Part of being a top driver is to pick your battles. Alonso could have closed the door to Vettel and caused a collision giving him a DNF. Then he would have denied the tifosi of their podium finish. That would be selfish and cruel for the fans who paid the $$$$ and traveled to Italy to see their home team.

Crashing and collecting less points than what the car is capable is bad for team morale and not worthy of a Formula 1 champion.

#11041 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 01:30

I would add what Webber said about him after his Eau Rouge move: "It takes two guys doing a good job to get all that right obviously, so it's more rewarding when you can do it with someone like Fernando because he's a world-class driver and he knows when enough is enough", which I understand as him not going beyond the line of what is acceptable and knowing when the position is lost. Obviously, that gives comfort to other drivers and allows them to try moves when, again in Webber's words, their "attitude might have been a bit different with someone else". But I don't consider that a weakness in a driver, and definitely it is an advantage for us F1 followers who are treated to daring moves we would otherwise not see.

I have to commend Alonso on his clean driving while at the same time picking the right battles, but the post beneath this one reaks of fanboyism when Alonso might have taken himself out in the process which is counter-productive in the long run.

At the end of the day, no matter what a drive you put in, the smart thing to do is what is best for both yourself and the team... Which is try and punch above your weight but bring the car home in the place it deserves at the very least.

Alonso has done a lot of punching this year, I might say to much, but he has maximised his point scoring opportunities apart from from Malaysia and China.

Also: as above, it is not a weakness. It is a strength in my eyes at least.

#11042 Leyser

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:52

I am disgusted that my team so badly mismanaged an excellent driver like Alonso. It's truly embarrassing.

I'd never hear an "I give up" from schumi, but I don't believe for a second Alonso did. He is an awesome racer. I bow before his determined performances in the face of much appalling work by his own team.

#11043 TheBunk

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:58

Agreed. If this continues Alonso should think about packng his bags and get to Red Bull. There is only so much stupidity you can tolerate.

#11044 YellowHelmet

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:59

Another great performance by alonso!

Sad that the team hasnt reacted right at the beginning and so made it impossible for alonso to fight for the win.

the i quit quote was a very intelligent one: 1) coz ferrari as rb had no good traction out of corner one to follow mclaren and so to battle them in drs-zone
+
he ran out of fuel.

Nevertheless he showed in the third stint what he was capable of, if the team had reacted right in the first stint.


#11045 MichaelPM

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:14

I'm not sure what they where trying to achieve, perhaps just showing the world how much better Alonso is.
I guess Ferrari only get money from the constructors title and that's set in stone now so a podium is the same as any points for them.
Maybe as its been suggested a confidence building exercise for Massa, didn't work out too well as soon as Alonso showed what the car could do with some clear air.

I hope it helped Ferrari getting data for next years car otherwise it was a pointless exercise.

#11046 YellowHelmet

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:18

I'm not sure what they where trying to achieve, perhaps just showing the world how much better Alonso is.
I guess Ferrari only get money from the constructors title and that's set in stone now so a podium is the same as any points for them.
Maybe as its been suggested a confidence building exercise for Massa, didn't work out too well as soon as Alonso showed what the car could do with some clear air.

I hope it helped Ferrari getting data for next years car otherwise it was a pointless exercise.

i think also it was that, but with that they threw a podium away.

Ferrari strategy once again :down:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 16 October 2011 - 08:18.


#11047 AlanWake

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:25

Good race by Fernando. He was lucky when VP crashed into MS, but that's racing and I have to say he had incredible reflexes to avoid any contact (VP almost crashes into him too :eek: ). Also brilliant pace in the last laps :up: It is a just shame he didn't outqualified Massa yesterday, because he would have got a podium.

BTW, we shouldn't blame Felipe for not letting Fernando to pass, he did what he should do. It was Alonso's poor qualifying which hurt his race and ruined a likely podium!

#11048 fed up

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:27

Another great performance by alonso!

Sad that the team hasnt reacted right at the beginning and so made it impossible for alonso to fight for the win.

the i quit quote was a very intelligent one: 1) coz ferrari as rb had no good traction out of corner one to follow mclaren and so to battle them in drs-zone
+
he ran out of fuel.

Nevertheless he showed in the third stint what he was capable of, if the team had reacted right in the first stint.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#11049 BalazsF1

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:30

Alonso was very intelligent with managing the tyres. However our pace on the supersoft was extremely bad, especially at the end of th first stint.
I wouldn't call it great drive by my favourite driver, but it was okay.
Our real chance will come in Brazil.

#11050 Leyser

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:33

That quote was as intelligent as ferrari's strategy - anything but. It was regrettable, (sadly) understandable and ultimately forgivable.