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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#11101 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:21

Team strategy today was silly, but there's no denying the fact that Alonso has to take a portion of the blame for not qualifying in front of Massa.

This is how I see it too.

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#11102 as65p

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:24

I know, that's your mantra. It doesn't matter what happens in the race, that's your story and you're sticking to it. How sad.


Well, I for one don't get how on one side you can think that Alonso is a bit sh't and at the same time NOT think that Massa has to go. Granted, Massa has recently shown he can out-qualify Alonso, either because he's found something special over one lap, or because Alonso currently lost something at that discipline. In the end it doesn't matter that much which it is, because one thing is obvious: in terms of race speed and end results, Massa can't hold a candle to Alonso.

#11103 cardin

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:32

It is not just this race but nearly two seasons worth of races where he has been piss poor apart from a few races here and there where he really performs.

I am not saying he should have let Alonso through because I actually think he had the legs on Alonso earlier in the race but grand prix racing is not about being fast in one or two stints.

Answer this... Has Massa been good or poor? Fast or slow?

Edit: Again you direct your post at me instead of addressing the matter at hand which is Massa's performances in comparison to his teammate and whether he deserves the Ferrari seat...


You are trying to cloud the issue here. The point was not what you are trying to make of it. The point was and is that you hadn't even watched the race(and I suspect you still haven't) and came here fumming saying Massa was helding Alonso. When you learned that Alonso himself said he was not held, he just didn't have the speded, you changed your tune compleately.
Formula 1 is complex and even when you watch the races you miss a lot. If you come here and start not only commenting but bashing drivers without watching the races, you are going to loose a lot respect.

#11104 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:34

Well, I for one don't get how on one side you can think that Alonso is a bit sh't and at the same time NOT think that Massa has to go. Granted, Massa has recently shown he can out-qualify Alonso, either because he's found something special over one lap, or because Alonso currently lost something at that discipline. In the end it doesn't matter that much which it is, because one thing is obvious: in terms of race speed and end results, Massa can't hold a candle to Alonso.

Well, Cardin believes that Ferrari deliberately pit Massa early for his second stop in order to drop him in traffic just to let Alonso by.

Lol, if that were the case why would they even bother giving him the prime strategy during the first round of stops because they could have had Alonso jump him then and continue on his merry way and possibly score a podium. :confused:

#11105 lewymp4

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:37

What I meant is that god forbid LH said that ther'd be three simultaneous threads "Lewis the quitter" by the same FA fans that now say "Everyone knows what FA meant"
It's OT anyway,great job by FA! :up:


3 simultaneous threads........you most be kidding........this site would crash!

I really had to laugh when he said, " I give up ", but he still showed that he had the fight within himself, in his pursuit of Jenson.


#11106 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:39

You are trying to cloud the issue here. The point was not what you are trying to make of it. The point was and is that you hadn't even watched the race(and I suspect you still haven't) and came here fumming saying Massa was helding Alonso. When you learned that Alonso himself said he was not held, he just didn't have the speded, you changed your tune compleately.
Formula 1 is complex and even when you watch the races you miss a lot. If you come here and start not only commenting but bashing drivers without watching the races, you are going to loose a lot respect.

I have watched the race and I did not say that Massa held Alonso up. If I did, please point me to the post but I suspect you won't be able to because such a post does not exist.

What I said was Massa has got to go because despite getting the preferred strategy he still finished behind his teammate. Pay attention!

#11107 cardin

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:46

Well, I for one don't get how on one side you can think that Alonso is a bit sh't and at the same time NOT think that Massa has to go. Granted, Massa has recently shown he can out-qualify Alonso, either because he's found something special over one lap, or because Alonso currently lost something at that discipline. In the end it doesn't matter that much which it is, because one thing is obvious: in terms of race speed and end results, Massa can't hold a candle to Alonso.


I never said that because I dont think that's the case. I might not think he's the 'perfect symbiosis of Senna and Prost' but I think, as a driver, he's top notch.
And again, the point was not wether I think Massa has or has not to go. The point is comenting on his performance on this specific race before watching it. Is that that hard to understand ?

#11108 as65p

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:47

3 simultaneous threads........you most be kidding........this site would crash!

I really had to laugh when he said, " I give up ", but he still showed that he had the fight within himself, in his pursuit of Jenson.


Well, from my observation it's a problem for many people. Somehow they tend to believe to much in what drivers say... they believe when Hamilton says he'll never be outbraked by anyone and now they (want to) believe Alonso gives up fighting.

Though quite obviously, in both cases it's what you see on track that counts, and nothing else. Talk is cheap, in every direction...  ;)

#11109 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:59

I never said that because I dont think that's the case. I might not think he's the 'perfect symbiosis of Senna and Prost' but I think, as a driver, he's top notch.
And again, the point was not wether I think Massa has or has not to go. The point is comenting on his performance on this specific race before watching it. Is that that hard to understand ?

I don't need to watch a race to know that despite having prime strategy of the two drivers he still finishes behind his teammate... Furthermore, I also don't have to quote phantom posts and create fantasies to justify my point of view as you have done in the Massa thread.

I'm not that ridiculous to ask for someone's head after just one race... He has been poor when compared with his teammate for nearly two seasons now and I think he doesn't deserve the seat any longer. Is that so hard to understand?

#11110 as65p

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:01

I never said that because I dont think that's the case. I might not think he's the 'perfect symbiosis of Senna and Prost' but I think, as a driver, he's top notch.


Okay, good to know.

And again, the point was not wether I think Massa has or has not to go. The point is comenting on his performance on this specific race before watching it. Is that that hard to understand ?


So you where having a personal discussion with another poster over when to watch a race and when to comment on it. Okay, Im not interested much in that stuff.

OTOH, what you say wasn't the point would, actually, be of general interest: is Massa doing a good enough job for his team? Over at McLaren we got a partly similar situation with one driver on average being a bit slower but allowed to race the other guy nonetheless. The all important difference, however, is that the slightly slower guy can frequently make circumstances work for him and bring home the bacon, this year even better than the faster guy. At Ferrari OTOH, the best Massa can do is effectively ruining races for Alonso, without doing anything for the team in terms of results himself. It's plain obvious that this is the least desirable situation from a teams POV.

Edited by as65p, 16 October 2011 - 22:07.


#11111 cardin

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:43

Okay, good to know.



So you where having a personal discussion with another poster over when to watch a race and when to comment on it. Okay, Im not interested much in that stuff.


In the name of precision that's not quite it but close enough.

OTOH, what you say wasn't the point would, actually, be of general interest: is Massa doing a good enough job for his team? Over at McLaren we got a partly similar situation with one driver on average being a bit slower but allowed to race the other guy nonetheless. The all important difference, however, is that the slightly slower guy can frequently make circumstances work for him and bring home the bacon, this year even better than the faster guy. At Ferrari OTOH, the best Massa can do is effectively ruining races for Alonso, without doing anything for the team in terms of results himself. It's plain obvious that this is the least desirable situation from a teams POV.

That's a little more offtopic for this thread. We can take it to the Massa thread if you wish(I'm all for making the mods happy) But rght off the bat I can tell you; Let's not compare Ferrari and McLaren. When it comes to how they threat their drivers they are worlds apart.

#11112 kosmos

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:47

Sadly I didn't have time to watch anything live this weekend, just watched some minutes ago the race and I think it was a good race by Fernando. He did a great start like in Japan, at least the starting speed and reaction was great but like in Japan, he couldn't do anything with it. Then Massa held him, I don't think it was a big deal, even if Fernando didn't want to say anything to avoid any controversy, I do think that he could have been a little faster with clean air, but he wasn't fast enough to make the pass so as I said not a big deal, then the last part of the race he was mighty fast, same that the race didn't last 5 more laps. I think it was possible a 4th at least but the somethings didn't went the right way, all in all, a good race, let's hope he can get on the podium in India :)

Edited by kosmos, 17 October 2011 - 05:57.


#11113 YellowHelmet

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:45

Let's not compare Ferrari and McLaren. When it comes to how they threat their drivers they are worlds apart.

explain?
i am waiting for your explanation, and i hope that you have really something to say, and not just the usual generalisation shit.

please enlighten us.

#11114 faaaz

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:55

explain?
i am waiting for your explanation, and i hope that you have really something to say, and not just the usual generalisation shit.

please enlighten us.


I dno, perhaps Mclaren are more equal and void of team orders?

#11115 YellowHelmet

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:01

I dno, perhaps Mclaren are more equal and void of team orders?

are you joking?
there are and always will be inequalities and team orders in mclaren (too), but actually i asked cardin.

#11116 Fontainebleau

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:02

I dno, perhaps Mclaren are more equal and void of team orders?

The fact that a few former McLaren drivers have stated the opposite in the past is not to be taken into account, I suppose.

#11117 JSDSKI

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 18:19

The fact that a few former McLaren drivers have stated the opposite in the past is not to be taken into account, I suppose.

Please do not disturb the argument with logic.

#11118 fabr68

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 18:55

In the name of precision that's not quite it but close enough.


That's a little more offtopic for this thread. We can take it to the Massa thread if you wish(I'm all for making the mods happy) But rght off the bat I can tell you; Let's not compare Ferrari and McLaren. When it comes to how they threat their drivers they are worlds apart.


I can tell you that if I was Massa, between been Hamilton's teammate at Mclaren or Alonso's teammate at Ferrari I would take the latter.

#11119 currupipi

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 19:36

The fact that a few former McLaren drivers have stated the opposite in the past is not to be taken into account, I suppose.

Please do not disturb the argument with logic.


:lol:


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#11120 Johnrambo

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:09

Then Massa held him, I don't think it was a big deal, even if Fernando didn't want to say anything to avoid any controversy,


How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.

#11121 AlanWake

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:16

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.


Yeah, you're right. Australia, Spa, Hungary and Suzuka this year were clear examples of that ;)

#11122 ferrarijon123

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:17

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.

How did he lose a championship by not passing massa without team orders? He gained seven points from it and still lost the championship, basically it make no difference.

#11123 AlanWake

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:19

How did he lose a championship by not passing massa without team orders? He gained seven points from it and still lost the championship, basically it make no difference.


Probably he was referring to 2007.

#11124 puxanando

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:19

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.

:drunk: Oh yes....what a bad driver this ignorant spaniard! You are working as comedian??

#11125 ferrarijon123

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:20

Probably he was referring to 2007.

Oh right fair enough then.

#11126 Tifosi4ever

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:27

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.


What WDC would that be? So far as I remember 2007, (which I presume you are talking about), Lewis dropped it in the last 3 races despite having a Vettel like lead, and ended up with exactly the same points as his team mate. So Fernando managed to match his team mates points despite his team favouring his team mate to such a point that the FIA had to put someone in place to stop them from ruining his races? So, Lewis needed Ron to be ahead in his first year, (not by points, they were equal), then he had Slowvalinan, (who he still needed to let him past in Germany 2008), then Button who is beating him this year.

Lewis can't pass without team orders, as was shown in Germany 2008. Lewis also has one WDC due to Glock. How many does Fernando have??

#11127 engel

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 20:47

Not getting involved in the debate, just clarifying, he means 2010 with Petrov

#11128 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 21:26

Not getting involved in the debate, just clarifying, he means 2010 with Petrov

If he really means that then it is just plain silly because of the nature of the track and the effectiveness of Renaults F-duct... Petrov was a moving road block in that race! Who actually got it right to overtake him?

#11129 Onsokumaru

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 22:06

Like if Alonso had not performed enough passes... Incredible that there are people out there who want to believe ALonso cannot pass without team orders! :drunk:

#11130 engel

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 22:08



If he really means that then it is just plain silly


yup, hence

Not getting involved in the debate


;)

#11131 CF22

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 22:16

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.


Are you serious? You could go watch You Tube you know.

#11132 cardin

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 22:22

explain?
i am waiting for your explanation, and i hope that you have really something to say, and not just the usual generalisation shit.

please enlighten us.


Sorry, I only have the usual generalization shit. No light for you.

#11133 Fontainebleau

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:51

How could he say anything without being seen as a clown? Alonso has shown he cannot pass without team orders. He already lost one WDC because he could not do it.

Ah, yes, Abu Dhabi 2010 - a clear example of how useless Alonso and Hamilton are when it comes to overtaking, unable to pass the car in front without team orders. Yes, both of them certainly showed that the best they can do is Germany 2010 and 2008, respectively.

(Irony mode off :p )

#11134 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:01

Sorry, I only have the usual generalization shit. No light for you.

what else?

#11135 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:01

Ah, yes, Abu Dhabi 2010 - a clear example of how useless Alonso and Hamilton are when it comes to overtaking, unable to pass the car in front without team orders. Yes, both of them certainly showed that the best they can do is Germany 2010 and 2008, respectively.

(Irony mode off :p )

:up: :rotfl:

#11136 puxanando

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 10:53

Fernando Alonso: "I do not need the best car to win the World championship, just a competitive one".


:up:

Please Ferrari give him one!

#11137 kosmos

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 14:18

Nothing new, we know that one of his skills is to drive a car (no matter how good or bad is) to the limit, he can extract the full potential of the car to an extent that noboby can't do.

#11138 Jordana

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 14:47

Nothing new, we know that one of his skills is to drive a car (no matter how good or bad is) to the limit, he can extract the full potential of the car to an extent that noboby can't do.


Amen! :lol:



#11139 YellowHelmet

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 16:00

Nothing new, we know that one of his skills is to drive a car (no matter how good or bad is) to the limit, he can extract the full potential of the car to an extent that noboby can't do.

absolutely right :up:

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#11140 AlanWake

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 00:30

Fernando's first drive in a 599 GTO: http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

#11141 Callisto

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 00:57

Fernando's first drive in a 599 GTO: http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

:up:

#11142 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:18

Thanks for the link Alan. Super cool video. As for the current debate going on, I know I'm new here but I think it's absolutely laughable for anyone to say that either ALO or HAM can't pass without team orders. ALO is obviously, to anyone with common sense and/or a fair mind, a better faster driver than his teammate MAS. I like MAS and have always wanted to see him do well. I'm super stoked he came back from his accident and want to see him keep his seat for 2013 & beyond, if he deserves it. But he has clearly been slower than ALO all season and has admitted as much. To say otherwise is to have an agenda far from the truth.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 22 October 2011 - 01:19.


#11143 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:09

Fernando Alonso: "I do not need the best car to win the World championship, just a competitive one".

:up:

Please Ferrari give him one!

Nothing new there. None of the top drivers need the best car to win championship, just a competitive one. Hamilton and Vettel would do the same.

Edited by SpaMaster, 22 October 2011 - 02:10.


#11144 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 14:53

The fact that a few former McLaren drivers have stated the opposite in the past is not to be taken into account, I suppose.

Those drivers are envious of Ron Dennis. That is why they badmouthed him and the team.

“We weren't racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando”.

#11145 King Six

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 15:07

This might be old news now, but basically Ferrari were running a front wing in Korea that copied Red Bull's one and I remember people posting excerpts from an interview with Alonso about how he was critical of Ferrari's development path and simply copying rather than innovating, or something like that, anyone care to post that interview?

Edited by King Six, 22 October 2011 - 15:07.


#11146 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 15:13

This might be old news now, but basically Ferrari were running a front wing in Korea that copied Red Bull's one and I remember people posting excerpts from an interview with Alonso about how he was critical of Ferrari's development path and simply copying rather than innovating, or something like that, anyone care to post that interview?

http://www.jamesalle...lready-started/

According to James Allen's source, "the new wing wasn’t intended to transform the performance of the 2011 car, but to understand how the front end of the rival RB7 works and influences the aerodynamic balance of the car. The set up of the RB7 is notably deeply raked and this worked perfectly in terms of aero balance and feeding the rear diffuser with a high pressure air flow."

#11147 AirWebber

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 16:22

http://www.jamesalle...lready-started/

According to James Allen's source, "the new wing wasn’t intended to transform the performance of the 2011 car, but to understand how the front end of the rival RB7 works and influences the aerodynamic balance of the car. The set up of the RB7 is notably deeply raked and this worked perfectly in terms of aero balance and feeding the rear diffuser with a high pressure air flow."

I think RB wing is very good for Schumy.

Massa's car was so tail happy in the race at the SSSSS' section.
Alonso spun in the wet FP, but I really don't remember the last time I saw him spinning.

#11148 glorius&victorius

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 17:30

we all know he can do it:
http://www.youtube.c...u/8/JGGjmQTPOlc


On the question of whether ferrari is everything he dreamed of... I wonder if he answered with full conviction. My feeling is that Fernando excelled in an environment at Mclaren. Even with the management and other side of the garage against him, he still made things work for him.

Sounds from his words that it is next year or...a big deception.


ps. Fernando confirms in his own words what James said about the front wing.

Edited by glorius&victorius, 22 October 2011 - 17:32.


#11149 YellowHelmet

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 18:15

we all know he can do it:
http://www.youtube.c...u/8/JGGjmQTPOlc


On the question of whether ferrari is everything he dreamed of... I wonder if he answered with full conviction. My feeling is that Fernando excelled in an environment at Mclaren. Even with the management and other side of the garage against him, he still made things work for him.

Sounds from his words that it is next year or...a big deception.


ps. Fernando confirms in his own words what James said about the front wing.


Thank you for the interview. It is always a pleasure to hear him speak, especially in english, his accent is priceless.;)

About the question of ferrari an if it is everything he dreamed of, he was very serious and very convincable :up:
Fernando was despite the team racing against him (or because of that) sensational in 2007.

Yep, Next year is the year that FA gets his 3rd title. :clap:

Edited by YellowHelmet, 22 October 2011 - 18:16.


#11150 puxanando

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 19:22

"Alonso won two Championships when Michael (Schumacher) was in his prime," Coulthard told Autosport.

"Since then the car has not quite been there but once it is he will be very hard to beat. All you can do, if you look at the history of the sport, you need a reference to another driver."


From HERE