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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#12251 BillBald

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 23:25

You keep talking as if you have some knowledge about Jarno being mistreated. You don't know that Alonso was being favored, you just want the rest of us to BELIEVE that. What we DO KNOW is that Briatore was overjoyed when Jarno took his maiden victory at Monaco in 2004. But he became increasingly disenchanted and vocal about Jarno "underperforming" and complaining about the Renault Team.

Here is a contemporaneous posting from an F1 forum at the time, that pretty much sums it up:


"Jarno failed to score a single point in the last 5 GP's, although he had a very impressive first half of the season, but his downfall came during the French GP, when he 'forgot' to close the door on Rubens."

Renault were fighting for 2nd place in the WCC, which they had lost to BAR. Trulli was firing blanks when the team needed him to deliver on track. Flavio, as team principal, was certainly unhappy with the way things were going, but when Jarno let Rubens by on the next t last corner in France...THAT. WAS. IT!!! It was a fit of pique from Flavio, but it had been building. Jarno was not outperforming Alonso at that time. Far from it. Flavio loves to WIN, far more than he wants to UNDERMINE any driver, as you postulate. Jarno was underperforming and got the sack. He and Briatore even kissed and made up afterwards. Drivers getting sacked after losing the plot has happened throughout history, so no need for your grand conspiracy theory of Flavio giving "a lot of help" to Alonso. Fernando was delivering and Trulli wasn't, but France is what cooked his goose.;)


You seem to be a knowledgeable chap. Maybe you could tell me how many points Trulli was ahead of Alonso, after the French GP?



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#12252 Zava

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 23:41

You keep talking as if you have some knowledge about Jarno being mistreated. You don't know that Alonso was being favored, you just want the rest of us to BELIEVE that. What we DO KNOW is that Briatore was overjoyed when Jarno took his maiden victory at Monaco in 2004. But he became increasingly disenchanted and vocal about Jarno "underperforming" and complaining about the Renault Team.

Here is a contemporaneous posting from an F1 forum at the time, that pretty much sums it up:


"Jarno failed to score a single point in the last 5 GP's, although he had a very impressive first half of the season, but his downfall came during the French GP, when he 'forgot' to close the door on Rubens."

Renault were fighting for 2nd place in the WCC, which they had lost to BAR. Trulli was firing blanks when the team needed him to deliver on track. Flavio, as team principal, was certainly unhappy with the way things were going, but when Jarno let Rubens by on the next t last corner in France...THAT. WAS. IT!!! It was a fit of pique from Flavio, but it had been building. Jarno was not outperforming Alonso at that time. Far from it. Flavio loves to WIN, far more than he wants to UNDERMINE any driver, as you postulate. Jarno was underperforming and got the sack. He and Briatore even kissed and made up afterwards. Drivers getting sacked after losing the plot has happened throughout history, so no need for your grand conspiracy theory of Flavio giving "a lot of help" to Alonso. Fernando was delivering and Trulli wasn't, but France is what cooked his goose.;)

thanks for pointing out that Briatore got fed up with Trulli after the last corner incident in france. just because Trulli fell off a cliff right after the french gp, constant top5 finishes -> never ever scoring a point again.
coincidence? or an enigma of the mystical? ;)

#12253 BillBald

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:58

Well, consider another point. As Trulli`s replacement Fisico was chosen. The guy at the time seemed clearly at least on par with Jarno if not better. Fisi had excelled in midfield cars, beat all his teammates and famously won in Brasil 2003 while having a dog of a car at his disposal.
And remarkably, Fisi was not on the contract with Briatore`s FFBB neither prior signing with Renault for 2005 not after. It all ended in 2001 when Flavio preferred not to take Renault`s option on Fisi for 2002 and got Trulli from Jordan insetad as a cheaper option. What an irony ;)


Surely it's obvious that you don't replace a guy who has been performing well with someone who 'seems' to be on a par with him.

And I recall that, prior to their first season together in 2005, a leading figure at Renault (not sure if it was Flavio) was speculating that Fisichella would get a shock when he saw how consistently Alonso could string fast laps together.

So it doesn't seem that Fisi was expected to outperform Trulli or, more importantly Alonso.





#12254 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 00:59

Here's a video analyzing different drivers & how they drive. Fernando starts at 2:06 into the video.

http://www.f1talks.p...dny-jak-button/

#12255 prty

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:39

thanks for pointing out that Briatore got fed up with Trulli after the last corner incident in france. just because Trulli fell off a cliff right after the french gp, constant top5 finishes -> never ever scoring a point again.
coincidence? or an enigma of the mystical?;)


Or that they stopped developing the car to concentrate in 2005? Hmm but the conspiracy you propose looks cool too.


#12256 kosmos

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:53

You seem to be a knowledgeable chap. Maybe you could tell me how many points Trulli was ahead of Alonso, after the French GP?



If I remember well, Trulli was 11 points ahead, but don't let Alonso's retirements spoil your party.

#12257 xlr8

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:46

You seem to be a knowledgeable chap. Maybe you could tell me how many points Trulli was ahead of Alonso, after the French GP?


Or Maybe you could tell us how many wins and titles Trulli and Fernando have after the 2004 French GP?

#12258 BillBald

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:46

Or Maybe you could tell us how many wins and titles Trulli and Fernando have after the 2004 French GP?


Nothing to do with the point I was making.



#12259 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:48

Or Maybe you could tell us how many wins and titles Trulli and Fernando have after the 2004 French GP?

I don't think either driver won any titles in 2004 did they?

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#12260 BillBald

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 13:58

If I remember well, Trulli was 11 points ahead, but don't let Alonso's retirements spoil your party.


I think it was around that area, quite a lot of points in those days considering Ferrari was taking the lion's share.

It's not normal for any team manager to lose his temper and fire his points-leading driver over a single mistake. I'm pretty sure that Flavio was just looking for an excuse, and Trulli gave it to him (and if it hadn't been that last-corner incident it would have been something else).

When a rational person does something which doesn't make sense, you have to start thinking in terms of a hidden agenda. In Flavio's case, and given his track record, it's pretty obvious: Alonso was his choice of no. 1 driver, and Trulli's strong performances were creating a problem.

It seems I have to keep repeating that I am not criticising Flavio, or suggesting that Trulli should have been his choice as no. 1 driver. It seems highly unlikely to me that Trulli could have achieved back-to-back WDC for Renault. All I'm saying is - stop claiming that Alonso beat Trulli as a team-mate. It's nonsense, and you all know it.



#12261 ivand911

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:04

He went to the future and got her?? :eek:

Anyway - I guess she is his rebound girl. Good on him. Im sure she will do for a while.

Or maybe not. There is nothing in this "love" story.
The pictures are from here:
http://www.hautelivi...abu-dhabi-2011/



#12262 RedOne

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:20

It seems I have to keep repeating that I am not criticising Flavio, or suggesting that Trulli should have been his choice as no. 1 driver. It seems highly unlikely to me that Trulli could have achieved back-to-back WDC for Renault. All I'm saying is - stop claiming that Alonso beat Trulli as a team-mate. It's nonsense, and you all know it.


What? He beat him in his debut season with Renault in 2003.

#12263 Eden

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:25

What? He beat him in his debut season with Renault in 2003.


In addition, the main reason why Trulli could match Alonso or even pass him in points was that he had 2 more retirements than Trulli, that resulted in points loss by Alonso.

But who cares about this, It's better to conveniently ignore... :stoned: :drunk:

Edited by Eden, 08 January 2012 - 14:25.


#12264 RedOne

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 14:29

In addition, the main reason why Trulli could match Alonso or even pass him in points was that he had 2 more retirements than Trulli, that resulted in points loss by Alonso.

But who cares about this, It's better to conveniently ignore... :stoned: :drunk:

:up:

Exactly, Alonso is clearly the better driver hands down, then and now.

Edited by RedOne, 08 January 2012 - 14:30.


#12265 bsoares

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 15:33

In addition, the main reason why Trulli could match Alonso or even pass him in points was that he had 2 more retirements than Trulli, that resulted in points loss by Alonso.

But who cares about this, It's better to conveniently ignore... :stoned: :drunk:




Up until the Italian GP - the last they both raced together at Renault - these were the retirements they both had:


Alonso

Monaco - Made a mess trying to lap Ralf Schumacher
Canada - Transmission
USA	  - Right rear puncture that caused him to crash into the wall
Spa	  - Spin / Oil leak
Italy	 - Spin

Trulli

Canada	  - Transmission
Silverstone - Suspension
Hungary	 - Engine


Yes Alonso had 2 more retirements, but both were his mistakes. But as you've said It's better to conveniently ignore...


#12266 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 15:41

Love it!

I've really started getting into die cast models recently and purchased my first one before Xmas (Ant Davisdon's SA07). What Scale is that? 1:18 or 1:43? looks pretty smart.


1/18. That's the only scale I buy. :)

#12267 ArtShelley

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 15:48

this is a team sport, so it's not Alonso's fault or Ferrari's fault alone, is 50/50.


Again, I 100% agree with you, hence my original post was:

One race doesn't make or break a WDC. Rather I think the Ferrari cock up at Abu Dhabi as well as a messy first half season by Alonso which included rookie errors such as jump start etc all contributed to him losing the WDC.

:)

#12268 prty

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 18:38

Up until the Italian GP - the last they both raced together at Renault - these were the retirements they both had:


Alonso

Monaco - Made a mess trying to lap Ralf Schumacher
Canada - Transmission
USA	  - Right rear puncture that caused him to crash into the wall
Spa	  - Spin / Oil leak
Italy	 - Spin

Trulli

Canada	  - Transmission
Silverstone - Suspension
Hungary	 - Engine


Yes Alonso had 2 more retirements, but both were his mistakes. But as you've said It's better to conveniently ignore...


Talking about conveniently ignored things, can you add, only for the mechanical retirements if you wish, the positions they were running in when they retired? :)

#12269 Smile17

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 18:47

What a discussion is going on here! Seriously who cares? Sometimes, when driver A beats driver B, the reason is a lot more complex than it seems. It's not all about talent or skill etc.. There are lots and lots of other factors that could decide a close battle. This is F1.

#12270 garoidb

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 20:00

Again, I 100% agree with you, hence my original post was:

One race doesn't make or break a WDC. Rather I think the Ferrari cock up at Abu Dhabi as well as a messy first half season by Alonso which included rookie errors such as jump start etc all contributed to him losing the WDC.

:)


It is certainly true that Alonso made errors which, in retrospect, cost him vital WDC points. The thing about 2010 is that all the contenders (except possibly Button) made driver errors that could be said to have cost them the WDC. If Vettel has lost, there are errors that could be pointed to. Contrastingly, there were far fewer of these in 2011. Why? Perhaps the fact that the WDC was less close resulted in less risk taking and fewer on-the-edge moments. Maybe it was the availability of DRS.

#12271 Watkins74

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 21:58

It is certainly true that Alonso made errors which, in retrospect, cost him vital WDC points. The thing about 2010 is that all the contenders (except possibly Button) made driver errors that could be said to have cost them the WDC. If Vettel has lost, there are errors that could be pointed to. Contrastingly, there were far fewer of these in 2011. Why? Perhaps the fact that the WDC was less close resulted in less risk taking and fewer on-the-edge moments. Maybe it was the availability of DRS.

I am an Alonso fan but errors are errors. Just because other drivers made errors doesn't give Fernando a pass. A 2 x WDC shouldn't be jumping the start.

He pulled it together since in the second half of 2010 and 2011 but early 2010 wasn't his best performances.

Edited by Watkins74, 08 January 2012 - 21:58.


#12272 Tifosi4ever

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 22:13

Either you have a lot of insider knowledge that is not available to the rest of us, or you are just making all this up.

I wonder which it is?

I find it hard to believe that Trulli would want to leave a team which was so obviously on the way up, unless it was made very clear that he was not wanted or would not receive equal treatment.


Trulli decided that he didn't wan't Briatore as a manager, so Briatore decided that Renault didn't wan't Trulli. It really isn't that hard to understand. When the position of team boss and driver manager is entwined, stupid decisions happen. Truilli didn't wan't Briatore as a manager, and had the option of earning shed loads from what was a potential winner in the future in Toyota. Briatore had a driver who didn't want him any more, and the decision to decide who to drive for Renault.

#12273 BillBald

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 22:49

Trulli decided that he didn't wan't Briatore as a manager, so Briatore decided that Renault didn't wan't Trulli. It really isn't that hard to understand. When the position of team boss and driver manager is entwined, stupid decisions happen. Truilli didn't wan't Briatore as a manager, and had the option of earning shed loads from what was a potential winner in the future in Toyota. Briatore had a driver who didn't want him any more, and the decision to decide who to drive for Renault.


Why didn't Flavio wait until nearer the end of the season?

Logic suggests that he would need a well-motivated driver for constructors points. A driver who has been sacked no longer has the right kind of relationship with the team.

It's the fact that Flavio didn't wait which really aroused my suspicions. I can't see any reason for him to make a move when he did, except that he wanted to make sure that Alonso was able to at least match Trulli over the season.

Alonso was going to be his WDC, he didn't want to have to spend the next few months rebuilding Alonso's self-confidence.

I don't think Flavio ever makes stupid decisions, but he can be too clever for his own good.



#12274 RedOne

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 23:21

Why didn't Flavio wait until nearer the end of the season?

Logic suggests that he would need a well-motivated driver for constructors points. A driver who has been sacked no longer has the right kind of relationship with the team.

It's the fact that Flavio didn't wait which really aroused my suspicions. I can't see any reason for him to make a move when he did, except that he wanted to make sure that Alonso was able to at least match Trulli over the season.

Alonso was going to be his WDC, he didn't want to have to spend the next few months rebuilding Alonso's self-confidence.

I don't think Flavio ever makes stupid decisions, but he can be too clever for his own good.


Cool story bro.

#12275 BillBald

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 02:52

Cool story bro.


Nice to be appreciated.



#12276 ArtShelley

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:42

Why didn't Flavio wait until nearer the end of the season?

Logic suggests that he would need a well-motivated driver for constructors points. A driver who has been sacked no longer has the right kind of relationship with the team.

It's the fact that Flavio didn't wait which really aroused my suspicions. I can't see any reason for him to make a move when he did, except that he wanted to make sure that Alonso was able to at least match Trulli over the season.

Alonso was going to be his WDC, he didn't want to have to spend the next few months rebuilding Alonso's self-confidence.

I don't think Flavio ever makes stupid decisions, but he can be too clever for his own good.


I don't believe in this theory that a team principal would support a slower driver. For what end? Hence I don't think Briatore got rid of Trulli simply because he was competitive with Alonso. I think it had more to do with Trulli ditching him as manager and wishing to go to big budget Toyota who was expected to become a front running team at the time.

I definitely agree that Alonso doesn't like being challenged by team mates. His ideal one is a fast driver who can support him properly by taking points off the opposition. He certainly does not want a driver who is capable of taking points off him!

But this does not reflect on Briatore's decision with Trulli. Also it's silly to say Flavio doesn't ever make stupid decisions. He has a background that is right up there on the corrupt and criminal scale, even before Crashgate. But does that prevent him from taking more risk with illegal actions - no, as Crashgate proved and even since then he's been investigated. Last time I heard, they were going to take his yacht off him for fraud. Briatore is talented no doubt, but he is a talented man with a penchant for crime. I think he gets a rush out of breaking the law and getting away with it.

#12277 RedOne

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:48

What BillBald ignores is Alonso already beat Trulli in a full season becuase that would ruin his theory. Take it to the Trulli thread this has got nothing to do with Alonso except theories that BillBald has made up from thin air for whatever reason.

Edited by RedOne, 09 January 2012 - 07:49.


#12278 kosmos

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:08

What BillBald ignores is Alonso already beat Trulli in a full season becuase that would ruin his theory. Take it to the Trulli thread this has got nothing to do with Alonso except theories that BillBald has made up from thin air for whatever reason.



It's event worst, Alonso was barely a rookie and Trulli was a 5+ years veteran.

#12279 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:51

It's event worst, Alonso was barely a rookie and Trulli was a 5+ years veteran.

It does happen from time to time and Alonso experienced that same situation himself a few years later. Trulli was never on the same level as Alonso though, and the fact he has remained in F1 for so long is quite amazing.

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#12280 1george

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:59

Why didn't Flavio wait until nearer the end of the season?

Logic suggests that he would need a well-motivated driver for constructors points. A driver who has been sacked no longer has the right kind of relationship with the team.

It's the fact that Flavio didn't wait which really aroused my suspicions. I can't see any reason for him to make a move when he did, except that he wanted to make sure that Alonso was able to at least match Trulli over the season.

Alonso was going to be his WDC, he didn't want to have to spend the next few months rebuilding Alonso's self-confidence.

I don't think Flavio ever makes stupid decisions, but he can be too clever for his own good.


What I think about this saga is:

1. 2004 was the third year for Trulli at Renault and I don't know if was his last-year contract. Briatore realised (helped by the engineers and influential Paddock people) that Jarno was a very good qualifier but not a top driver during the races, not a driver with the potential ability to win consistenly and without the plus (a concept hard to explain) to be World Champion. Having both a strong latin personalities, they had a row and Flavio sacked him. Or maybe Trulli had the contract for Toyota in his bag before to re-negotiate with Renault and Flavio sacked him for this reason. Mind that, at the time, Toyota was going a be on the cards a top team, at least, it was in terms of budget.

2. Alonso was managed by Briatore and was looking after Fernando's career very carefully. After his debut season at Minardi, Flavio realised definitively that he had a diamond, a potential atonishing driver. A close friend of Alonso (you can believe him or not), whose name will remain in private, told me a few years ago that the 2002 options for Alonso were:

a) Continue another year for Minardi but the Faenza team asked for a huge amount of money. Flavio disliked the idea because he thought that could be a wasted year for Fernando and could stop his progression. Fernando wanted to drive but he had no intention to look for the money.

b) Flavio said to Fernando that was going to convince Renault to release the Button or Trulli contracts to make room for him. Nobody knows if Flavio talked with the Renault bosses or they answered to him: "No way".

c) What happened at the end. To stay as Renault test-driver and wait for 2003. Fernando intially disliked the idea (he badly wanted to compete) and even had a few words with Flavio but he realised that was the sole option to geat a seat in Renault for 2003.

Time has proven that Flavio was right.

Edited by 1george, 09 January 2012 - 13:02.


#12281 Cesc

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 13:20

This is an OOOLD story about Alonso in 2004. All of those who love to criticise him recall the first half of the 2004 season and how he was beaten by Trulli (in fact, Trulli was better in some/most qualis, he never looked to me faster than Alonso race pace). But the scorecard in 2003 was 55-24 just before the last two races of the year, where Alonso had engine problems (and he was MILES ahead Trulli in those races) and Trulli could put some makeup in his standings (think also in Hungaroring 2003, where Alonso lapped Trulli and had a race pace about a second per lap faster than Trulli...)... Bu for this twisty version of the Trulli-Alonso partnership, Trulli beat Alonso because of that short time span (first 7 or 8 races in 2004) ignoring also the fact that the second half of 2004 was brilliant from Alonso with a quite underperforming car and doing some notable races...

#12282 ArtShelley

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 15:23

It's event worst, Alonso was barely a rookie and Trulli was a 5+ years veteran.


Oh the sweet irony!

#12283 kosmos

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 17:12

It does happen from time to time and Alonso experienced that same situation himself a few years later. Trulli was never on the same level as Alonso though, and the fact he has remained in F1 for so long is quite amazing.



It was not the same as 2007, first of all you can compare Trulli situation on the team with Alonso's in Mclaren, results wise, Alonso did much better than Trulli, Hamilton only slighty better, and of course you can't compare Hamilton talent with Trullis, even if Hamilton was a rookie.

#12284 kosmos

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 17:41

Posted Image
Posted Image

#12285 BillBald

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:20

What BillBald ignores is Alonso already beat Trulli in a full season becuase that would ruin his theory.


the scorecard in 2003 was 55-24 just before the last two races of the year, where Alonso had engine problems (and he was MILES ahead Trulli in those races) and Trulli could put some makeup in his standings (think also in Hungaroring 2003, where Alonso lapped Trulli and had a race pace about a second per lap faster than Trulli...)...


I'm not at all ignoring what happened in 2003, in fact it's very much part of the story. Trulli got a real hammering in 2003, and it's very impressive that he was able to come back so strongly in 2004.

At the end of 2003, Flavio must have been congratulating himself on his own foresight and planning. He had a no. 1 driver who seemed to be destined for greatness, and a no. 2 driver who was competent, didn't bin it too often, but was nowhere near the pace of the no. 1.
Just the way he wanted it!
A few months later, from Flavio's point of view, it had all turned to s**t. The wrong driver scoring the points, the future star looking vulnerable. He couldn't afford to wait until the end of the season, he just had to intervene and turn it around.

it's silly to say Flavio doesn't ever make stupid decisions.


He doesn't make stupid decisions, like losing his temper and sacking a driver who is performing well, just because that driver made a mistake. As I mentioned before, his problem is rather with trying to be too clever.

Why didn't Flavio wait until nearer the end of the season?


Nobody seems to have an answer.


#12286 as65p

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:30

Nobody seems to have an answer.


You expect people to knew what Briatore was thinking? :p

#12287 BillBald

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:33

You expect people to knew what Briatore was thinking? :p


Well, it's all speculation here, so why don't you have a go?



#12288 fabr68

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:37

Flavio Briatore needs his own thread....

#12289 as65p

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:39

Well, it's all speculation here, so why don't you have a go?


Because I have no idea, just like you? And unlike you, I don't pretend otherwise?

#12290 Cesc

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:40

Well, Trulli showed some important weakenesses during the second half of the year. I don´t know if it was due to Briatore mobbing or something, but Magny Cours error was very disappointing for renault and I think that was a point of no return. There could be some politics behind (pressure to put back a pathetical Villeneuve)... but I don´t think the reason was to favour Alonso at all. Alonso already proved to be much more stronger than trulli psychologically.

#12291 currupipi

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:41

Flavio Briatore needs his own thread....


with the thong picture :rotfl:


#12292 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:51

Because I have no idea, just like you? And unlike you, I don't pretend otherwise?


:up: :up: **Like**

Now let's get back to the real Alonso discussion not speculation about past history of which we'll never know the intimate details. Hoping for an interview of him from someone soon.

#12293 puxanando

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:25

Posted Image
:up: NICE!

#12294 BillBald

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:27

with the thong picture :rotfl:


Yep, can't see that too often :)

#12295 Tifosi4ever

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 19:29

Nobody knows exactly why. But, trulli leaving Renault coincided exactly with Trulli sacking Briatore.

Make of that what you will.


#12296 kosmos

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 05:06

Nobody knows exactly why. But, trulli leaving Renault coincided exactly with Trulli sacking Briatore.

Make of that what you will.


Maybe Trulli was talking with Toyota behind Flavio's back, just maybe.

Back to the topic, some pic from thw Wrooom.

http://motorsport.ne...campiglio-1.php

#12297 Manneken3000

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:59

i see people miss Flavio so much...

#12298 ArtShelley

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:13

It was not the same as 2007, first of all you can compare Trulli situation on the team with Alonso's in Mclaren, results wise, Alonso did much better than Trulli, Hamilton only slighty better, and of course you can't compare Hamilton talent with Trullis, even if Hamilton was a rookie.


Why ever would you compare Hamilton's talent with Trulli's. The example was Alonso-rookie/Trulli-experienced vs Hamilton-rookie/Alonso-experienced. The valid comparison would then be Hamilton's talent as a rookie vs Alonso's talent as a rookie. That most certainly is comparable. What is not comparable however is Alonso's talent when experienced with Trulli's talent when experienced. As you can see, as a rookie Alonso had an easier team mate in Trulli than Hamilton did against Alonso.

#12299 ArtShelley

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:14

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Looks remarkably like a Nissan 350Z :lol:

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#12300 Manneken3000

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:59

Looks remarkably like a Nissan 350Z :lol:

Me thinks it looks like a Peugot.