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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#12301 YellowHelmet

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:28

about the already answered question: why did Trulli end his contract with Renault in 2004 before the end of the season:
I will quote myself again


Trulli was already flirting with Toyota for several months before he and Renault ended the relationship during the season, which gave Trulli the opportunity to race earlier than expected for Toyota.
and that gracious behavior by Renault had two consequences.
1. alonso was taken the chance to fight till the end against his teammate for the 4th position in the championship and so was taken the chance to prove that he can beat Trulli (over a season) again as he did in 2003.
2. Trulli was praised as the guy who was after 15 out of 18 races in front of alonso in the standings.

There are strong hints that Trulli wanted to brake the contract with Renault as long as he was still in front of Alonso, just to have that honour in his Palmar├Ęs.



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#12302 YellowHelmet

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:30

Maybe Trulli was talking with Toyota behind Flavio's back, just maybe.

not just maybe.
that was already a well known fact in the f1 paddock since april/may 2004.

Edited by YellowHelmet, 10 January 2012 - 11:30.


#12303 BillBald

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:58

Of course Trulli would have been talking to Toyota, if he could see Flavio treating Alonso as no. 1, no matter what results the drivers achieved!



#12304 YellowHelmet

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 13:15

Of course Trulli would have been talking to Toyota, if he could see Flavio treating Alonso as no. 1, no matter what results the drivers achieved!

when the talks with Toyota began, Trulli was behind Alonso in the standings!
after already losing to him in 2003.

#12305 puxanando

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 13:39

ALONSO P 5 - most earning sportman on world!

#12306 kosmos

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 14:30

The valid comparison would then be Hamilton's talent as a rookie vs Alonso's talent as a rookie.



And how are you going to measure that when Alonso debuted in a Minardi and Hamilton in a WDC/WCC winning car?.

#12307 IceSkyrim

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 14:41

And how are you going to measure that when Alonso debuted in a Minardi and Hamilton in a WDC/WCC winning car?.

That's Alonso's problem.

Fred turned down an offer from Jean Todt to be the first Ferrari young driver.

#12308 ArtShelley

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 14:49

And how are you going to measure that when Alonso debuted in a Minardi and Hamilton in a WDC/WCC winning car?.


Weren't the team mates also in a Minardi and WDC/WCC winning car, respectively?

#12309 showtime

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 15:21

http://a.yfrog.com/i.../1146/ltzie.jpg

Edited by showtime, 10 January 2012 - 15:24.


#12310 kosmos

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 15:22

That's Alonso's problem.

Fred turned down an offer from Jean Todt to be the first Ferrari young driver.


Yeah, big problem, hard choice between being the 3rd driver at Ferrari and eventually Schumacher loyal buttler or winning 2 titles with Renault, obviously he didn't know at that time but it turned pretty well the choice he made.... and he is on Ferrari now :up:


ArtShelley, I don't know what you mean but anyway , my comparison was in the sense that the situation was not the same between Renault 2003 and McLaren 2007 in the sense that Alonso was much better than Trulli and in the other hand Alonso wasn't much better than Hamilton, so is not as simple as rookie vs experienced driver, in my opinion Hamilton was not a rookie in many senses in 2007 (plus some luxuries he had back then from the team), but that's my opinion. Maybe we should go to the ALO vs HAM thread to continue if you want :)

#12311 xlr8

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 15:58

Weren't the team mates also in a Minardi and WDC/WCC winning car, respectively?

:confused:

#12312 IceSkyrim

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 16:53

Yeah, big problem, hard choice between being the 3rd driver at Ferrari and eventually Schumacher loyal buttler or winning 2 titles with Renault, obviously he didn't know at that time but it turned pretty well the choice he made.... and he is on Ferrari now :up:

Think long term.

If Alonso were a Ferrari driver since the start of his career, don't you think Nando would be a +2WDC by now ?


#12313 BillBald

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:12

when the talks with Toyota began, Trulli was behind Alonso in the standings!
after already losing to him in 2003.


Well, whether you think that Trulli jumped or was pushed is not really that relevant.

Something clearly happened around the French GP which stopped Trulli from scoring any more points, and started Alonso on the road to recovering his form.

So, I don't think you can really claim that Alonso beat Trulli while they were team-mates. Technically, yes, he scored more points. But definitely nothing to shout about.




#12314 kosmos

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:13

Think long term.

If Alonso were a Ferrari driver since the start of his career, don't you think Nando would be a +2WDC by now ?


How can I know?, maybe those years at Renault and the chain of events after he won in 2006 were fundamental to make the current Alonso (driving skills) or maybe he could have destroyed Schumacher and have now 7 titles or maybe under Todt watch he could have never been as good as is today (because the team was all about Schumacher). I take what I have, 2 WDC and the best driver of the grid over a million of "ifs" and possible timelines.

#12315 YellowHelmet

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:16

Think long term.

why?

what details we know about the offer,
and
what sense does such a thinking make now?
what do we get from it?

+ if he would have taken the offer, he would have come in a made-team and not like now having to build up a team, which can be similar succesful as the schumacher-ferrari-team.

what we have now is:
Alonso being the best out there and with the ban of illegal aerodynamic helps that was used especially by red bull in 2011, he has a chance that his ferrari will be somewhere matching his talent.
so we have an alonso in a "alonso-made-ferrari".

i prefer the way he chose

#12316 as65p

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:21

Well, whether you think that Trulli jumped or was pushed is not really that relevant.

Something clearly happened around the French GP which stopped Trulli from scoring any more points, and started Alonso on the road to recovering his form.


Let me help you out.

So, I don't think you can really claim that Alonso beat Trulli while they were team-mates. Technically, yes, he scored more points. But definitely nothing to shout about.


Strange I must have missed all those occasions where Alonso fans shout about FA having beating Trulli. :p

Anyway, glad you acknowledge the technical part. What does that leave Jarno, the "victor of the hearts", or something?

Edited by as65p, 10 January 2012 - 17:21.


#12317 BillBald

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:33

Let me help you out.



Strange I must have missed all those occasions where Alonso fans shout about FA having beating Trulli. :p

Anyway, glad you acknowledge the technical part. What does that leave Jarno, the "victor of the hearts", or something?


Well, I've already said that Flavio is not daft enough to allow one mistake to change a driver's season.

And some Alonso fans do claim a clear victory against Trulli, although presumably you don't (which I'm glad to hear).




#12318 RedOne

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:59

Well, I've already said that Flavio is not daft enough to allow one mistake to change a driver's season.

And some Alonso fans do claim a clear victory against Trulli, although presumably you don't (which I'm glad to hear).


If you want to run away from the truth .. it's straight through those tightly sprung double doors marked denial you can't miss them :p

#12319 IceSkyrim

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 18:30

To Kosmos and YellowHelmet,

I'm not an Alonso fan, but I believe he would be a +2WDC if he had an early involvement with Ferrari.
Fernando turned down the Ferrari offer, but now, after years failling in all other F1 options, Alonso keeps claims eternal passion for Ferrari.

I just think Fernando did a bad professional choice.

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#12320 prty

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 18:36

To Kosmos and YellowHelmet,

I'm not an Alonso fan, but I believe he would be a +2WDC if he had an early involvement with Ferrari.
Fernando turned down the Ferrari offer, but now, after years failling in all other F1 options, Alonso keeps claims eternal passion for Ferrari.

I just think Fernando did a bad professional choice.


McLaren was a bad professional choice, but I don't think that going with Renault instead and winning 2 WDCs there could be classified as bad choice.

#12321 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 18:44

McLaren was a bad professional choice...

It turned out to be but he wasn't mature enough to handle it by his own admission. Plus it was his childhood dream to drive for McLaren and he chose them at the time. It just wasn't meant to be.

#12322 fieraku

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 20:43

fixed for you :)

:lol:
Ain't that the truth! I bookmarked it for future "speculations".

Edited by fieraku, 10 January 2012 - 20:45.


#12323 Slartibartfast

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 00:01

why?

what details we know about the offer,
and
what sense does such a thinking make now?
what do we get from it?

Only speculation as to what the differences might have been.

+ if he would have taken the offer, he would have come in a made-team and not like now having to build up a team, which can be similar succesful as the schumacher-ferrari-team.

In other words, he may not have had to wait for a championsip-winning team to be made, it would already have been in place. Of course, he may have had to take on Schumacher in the same team.

what we have now is:
Alonso being the best out there and with the ban of illegal aerodynamic helps that was used especially by red bull in 2011, he has a chance that his ferrari will be somewhere matching his talent.
so we have an alonso in a "alonso-made-ferrari".

i prefer the way he chose

What "illegal aerodynamic helps" were used in 2011? Why were they illegal? If they weren't banned at the time, how can they have been illegal at the time? If they were banned at the time, how do you know they were used when the FIA apparently doesn't?

By the way; an "alonso-made-ferrari"? Don't you mean a "made-for-Alonso" Ferrari?

Strange I must have missed all those occasions where Alonso fans shout about FA having beating Trulli. :p

Anyway, glad you acknowledge the technical part. What does that leave Jarno, the "victor of the hearts", or something?

The occasions are easy to find, they are whenever Alonso and Trulli are mentioned in the same post.
I don't know about "victor of the hearts", I still think of him as "driver of the train".

If you want to run away from the truth .. it's straight through those tightly sprung double doors marked denial you can't miss them :p

Just follow the "Alonso wasn't fairly treated in 2007" fans, the "Schumacher didn't take out Hill or Villeneuve fans", the "2011 was McLaren's not Hamilton's fault" fans and the "Ecclestone and Mosley are honest" fans.
On second thoughts, don't bother with the last lot, they are harder to find than a needle in a haystack.


#12324 fieraku

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 00:32


Posted Image

This is one of the best pictures of any F1 driver I have ever seen,magical.

#12325 Nitropower

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 00:52

Fernando thought McLaren were eager to build a new structure around him to win. But McLaren does not do that since Mikka Hakkinen. He was only goodies for them. He let his youth dream decide for him but it's very clear he didn't have a clue how McLaren was inside. Fernando's fault? Don't think so. I think it's McLaren's.

It is, as it is their fault that Hamilton is not shining as he used to. If they chose Hamilton as a no.1 driver early in the 2007 season they should've stuck with him even if they signed Button. I think Hamlton could've won another championship with the same level of support he received in 2007-2008. Just my feelings.

#12326 JSDSKI

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:15

Alonso had already committed to Minardi when Todt made a "take it or leave it offer". That's why he "turned down" the Ferrari offer. He kept his word with Minardi. In the long run, it was probably better for him to have started with Minardi as opposed to Ferrari. He would not have been able to grow with Ferrari at that time. And we would never have seen the battles between FA and Schumacher.....

#12327 RedOne

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:30

Alonso had already committed to Minardi when Todt made a "take it or leave it offer". That's why he "turned down" the Ferrari offer. He kept his word with Minardi. In the long run, it was probably better for him to have started with Minardi as opposed to Ferrari. He would not have been able to grow with Ferrari at that time. And we would never have seen the battles between FA and Schumacher.....


:up: I think it helped his development as a driver experiencing to opposite sides of the spectrum in regards to the teams he has driven for rather than just being put straight in a top team who was fully focused on Schumacher at the time anyway. I don't think he would be the driver he is today if he chose that path so I'm happy he didn't and ultimately he ended up at Ferrari anyway when the time was right.

Edited by RedOne, 11 January 2012 - 01:31.


#12328 BillBald

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:44

If you want to run away from the truth .. it's straight through those tightly sprung double doors marked denial you can't miss them :p


Can't see them - too many Alonso fans getting in the way.



#12329 as65p

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:45

The occasions are easy to find, they are whenever Alonso and Trulli are mentioned in the same post.


Well, the emphasis was on "shout about it". I doubt you'll find many posts (if any at all) where even the die-hards like Yellow helmet bring up that part in Alonos CV where he beat Jarno Trulli. You might find lots of other people claiming the opposite, though, that Trulli beat Alonso, even if the points don't quite agree 'technically', but in some weird way that usually involves an evil trickster wearing nothing but a thong, mixed with a bit of mind reading and good-old conspiracy theories.

The good thing is that this way a better part of Trullis career is remembered far more often than it would had he achieved the same results (from the first part of 2004) vs. a less popular teammate than Alonso. :)

#12330 Slartibartfast

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:01

Well, the emphasis was on "shout about it". I doubt you'll find many posts (if any at all) where even the die-hards like Yellow helmet bring up that part in Alonos CV where he beat Jarno Trulli. You might find lots of other people claiming the opposite, though, that Trulli beat Alonso, even if the points don't quite agree 'technically', but in some weird way that usually involves an evil trickster wearing nothing but a thong, mixed with a bit of mind reading and good-old conspiracy theories.

The good thing is that this way a better part of Trullis career is remembered far more often than it would had he achieved the same results (from the first part of 2004) vs. a less popular teammate than Alonso. :)

I may have got confused between Alonso-fans (the maniacal minority, anyway) shouting about and shouting down.  ;)


p.s. Did Trulli have any teammates less popular? :p

#12331 BillBald

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:26

Well, the emphasis was on "shout about it". I doubt you'll find many posts (if any at all) where even the die-hards like Yellow helmet bring up that part in Alonos CV where he beat Jarno Trulli. You might find lots of other people claiming the opposite, though, that Trulli beat Alonso, even if the points don't quite agree 'technically', but in some weird way that usually involves an evil trickster wearing nothing but a thong, mixed with a bit of mind reading and good-old conspiracy theories.

The good thing is that this way a better part of Trullis career is remembered far more often than it would had he achieved the same results (from the first part of 2004) vs. a less popular teammate than Alonso. :)


I think 'conspiracy theory' on this forum means 'speculation that I don't very much like'.

If you are not being told the whole truth (which definitely applies to F1), you can either a) try to work out what is really going on, and quite possibly be wrong, or b) accept everything at face value, and almost certainly be wrong.



#12332 kosmos

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:49

McLaren was a bad professional choice


In hindsight it was, but at the time he signed for them it was the right choice, Renault falled from the cliff and McLaren developed a winner car. It's a shame that McLaren was in the hands of person that didn't know how to manage 2 top caliber drivers and allowed his team to cheat, plus probably a lot of unfullfiled promises and lies. At the end it was Ron Dennis who made it a bad professional choice, not Fernando. In 5 years McLaren has won only one title and their star driver is a broken toy, it could have been a glorious run for Fernando and the team, it wasn't meant to be.

Edited by kosmos, 11 January 2012 - 04:51.


#12333 xlr8

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:14

In hindsight it was, but at the time he signed for them it was the right choice, Renault falled from the cliff and McLaren developed a winner car. It's a shame that McLaren was in the hands of person that didn't know how to manage 2 top caliber drivers and allowed his team to cheat, plus probably a lot of unfullfiled promises and lies. At the end it was Ron Dennis who made it a bad professional choice, not Fernando. In 5 years McLaren has won only one title and their star driver is a broken toy, it could have been a glorious run for Fernando and the team, it wasn't meant to be.


Well it is their only title for not 5 but 13 years. But :up: on everything.

#12334 Nobody

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:57

In hindsight it was, but at the time he signed for them it was the right choice, Renault falled from the cliff and McLaren developed a winner car. It's a shame that McLaren was in the hands of person that didn't know how to manage 2 top caliber drivers and allowed his team to cheat, plus probably a lot of unfullfiled promises and lies. At the end it was Ron Dennis who made it a bad professional choice, not Fernando. In 5 years McLaren has won only one title and their star driver is a broken toy, it could have been a glorious run for Fernando and the team, it wasn't meant to be.


:rotfl:


#12335 bogi

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:00

Well it is their only title for not 5 but 13 years. But :up: on everything.



Yeah we know, but it still sucks compared to the two decades :rotfl:

#12336 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:07

In hindsight it was, but at the time he signed for them it was the right choice, Renault falled from the cliff and McLaren developed a winner car. It's a shame that McLaren was in the hands of person that didn't know how to manage 2 top caliber drivers and allowed his team to cheat, plus probably a lot of unfullfiled promises and lies. At the end it was Ron Dennis who made it a bad professional choice, not Fernando. In 5 years McLaren has won only one title and their star driver is a broken toy, it could have been a glorious run for Fernando and the team, it wasn't meant to be.

One of the funniest posts I have read on this forum and the worrying thing is you are serious. All I can say is "you wish". :lol:

#12337 as65p

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:26

I may have got confused between Alonso-fans (the maniacal minority, anyway) shouting about and shouting down. ;)


Ah, I see. Yep, the latter happens, unfortunately.

For what it's worth, I think a) Trulli surely had a good run in 2004, coupled with a not-so-good one and a bit of bad luck for Alonso (although looking at the lap times in the races, it was still all too clear who of the two had far more ultimate potential, even in that phase) and b) Trullis run didn't last, and when he slumped, quite badly, fell out with Briatore, slumped even more and got sacked eventually. Looking at how Briatore always treated his teams lesser drivers, nothing out of the ordinary at all.

p.s. Did Trulli have any teammates less popular? :p


:lol: :up: Now you pointed it out, it really looks like a bad choice of word, 'well known' would have been so much better.

#12338 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:33

:lol: :up: Now you pointed it out, it really looks like a bad choice of word, 'well known' would have been so much better.

So Fernando was outperformed by a rookie because his was less well known at the time? Yeah I'll go with that too. :up: :lol:

#12339 as65p

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:52

So Fernando was outperformed by a rookie because his was less well known at the time? Yeah I'll go with that too. :up: :lol:


Read that a few times, but still can't follow your train of thought. Other than you somehow managed to bring up 2007, out of the blue, again. :p

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#12340 xlr8

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:01

So Fernando was outperformed by a rookie because his was less well known at the time? Yeah I'll go with that too. :up: :lol:


Fernando Alonso in 2007
17 races, 4 wins, 2 poles, 3 fastest laps, 12 podiums, 109 pts

Lewis Hamilton in 2007
17 races, 4 wins, 6 poles, 2 fastest laps, 12 podiums, 109 pts

Outperformed? Yeah right.

#12341 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:11

Fernando Alonso in 2007
17 races, 4 wins, 2 poles, 3 fastest laps, 12 podiums, 109 pts

Lewis Hamilton in 2007
17 races, 4 wins, 6 poles, 2 fastest laps, 12 podiums, 109 pts

Outperformed? Yeah right.

Finished ahead of his teammate on less occassions and finished behind in the final standings would have been a better way of putting it. Not bad though, and technically outperformed but fairly even nonetheless. :)

#12342 ForeverF1

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:33

Posts have been removed. There is a thread dedicated to Alonso vs Hamilton here.

#12343 kosmos

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:58

Domenicalli as said this morning in the press conference that in his 20 years working in Ferrari, he never saw a driver as involved with team and spend so much time in Maranello.

He also said that he can't ask for more because is impossible to have better perfomance than what Alonso did in 2011 with that car.

From lobato twitter.

Edited by kosmos, 11 January 2012 - 10:01.


#12344 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:01

Domenicalli as said this morning in the press conference that in his 20 years working in Ferrari, he never saw a driver as involved with team and spend so much time in Maranello.

That puts Schumacher in the shade as he was always known for that. People used to say he would often come in at 7am and leave at 10pm if he felt he needed to. I can imagine Fernando is commited in a similar fashion though maybe spending up to 30 hours a day in the factory.

#12345 xlr8

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:03

Domenicalli as said this morning in the press conference that in his 20 years working in Ferrari, he never saw a driver as involved with team and spend so much time in Maranello.


There is no question mark on Fernando's determination and dedication for his team. I think he is hungrier than ever and we tifosi's are really proud to have him on board.

#12346 xlr8

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:05

That puts Schumacher in the shade as he was always known for that. People used to say he would often come in at 7am and leave at 10pm if he felt he needed to. I can imagine Fernando is commited in a similar fashion though maybe spending up to 30 hours a day in the factory.


Everyone have their own opinion. :)

#12347 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:06

There is no question mark on Fernando's determination and dedication for his team. I think he is hungrier than ever and we tifosi's are really proud to have him on board.

And so you should be. IMO he is one of the best drivers on the grid at the moment and any team would relish having him in one of their cars. I have huge respect for Fernando. :up:

#12348 xlr8

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:12

And so you should be. IMO he is one of the best drivers on the grid at the moment and any team would relish having him in one of their cars. I have huge respect for Fernando. :up:

:up:

#12349 prty

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:21

Finished ahead of his teammate on less occassions


That's the other way around mate :D


#12350 sofarapartguy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:32

Domenicalli as said this morning in the press conference that in his 20 years working in Ferrari, he never saw a driver as involved with team and spend so much time in Maranello.


What if Domenicalli is talking about Felipe?
:stoned: :drunk: :cat: