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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#12751 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:54

It is relevant because you mentioned his results. It is funny how you say alonso outdrived his rivals though. Based on what? Who says ferrari wasn't simply a good car on softer compounds? Fact remains though that alonso got 4th in WDC thus only could beat hamilton who had a terrible season. That's actually where the overall 3rd fastest car that was 2nd fastest or fastest on occasions allows a good driver to be. 2011 was alonso's 5th best season in F1 in my eyes, after 2005, 2006, 2010 and 2007, in that order.

I am not sure if you want us to just read statsitics as blind as you do, and out of this blindness come to a blind conclusion as your is,
or are you so kind to let us analyse with our eyes wide open.

about your list of alonsos best seasons:
it shows just how blind you analyse:
calling 2007 or 2010 better seasons by alonso than 2011 is just a joke.
you do it, as it seems just from the reading of the final standing in the wdc and that is the blindness, that i mean.







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#12752 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:58

I see. You are not only an insider at Alonso's head but at Ferrari too. That's impressive.

those two quotes are not linked as you tried to construe :down:
@ 1st quote: it was about alonsos approach and about the circumstances in which he produced beauty in 2011.

@ 2nd quote: it was about the medial impression construed about kimi.
read carefully, before you once again disqualify yourself from a potentital discussion. :down:


#12753 cardin

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:59

in the few close battles vettel had in 2011, he made in 3-4 of them mistakes, which costed him the race win.


It's that your new mantra ? What hapenned with the good old "Illegal RBR" one ?

#12754 cardin

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:00

those two quotes are not linked as you tried to construe :down:
@ 1st quote: it was about alonsos approach and about the circumstances in which he produced beauty in 2011.

@ 2nd quote: it was about the medial impression construed about kimi.
read carefully, before you once again disqualify yourself from a potentital discussion. :down:

You are the link.

#12755 prty

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:00

QUOTE
2009 -- Chris Dyer :
- Kimi gives a very specific description of the way the car behaves and he reacts very sharply to the changes we make to the car. You can't ask for more, Dyer said to MTV3.


QUOTE
2008 -- Nick Tombazis
- "Working with Kimi is easy. Kimi speaks a little but everything he says is important. The whole team appreciates Kimi's contribution when it comes to testing. Kimi is a superfast, humble and harmless guy".

Of course you know better than those at Ferrari who actually worked with him :rolleyes:


From the horse's mouth:



;)

#12756 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:01

It's that your new mantra ? What hapenned with the good old "Illegal RBR" one ?

mantra?
sounds familliar to me from another topic in this bb. but anyway?

the rbr was illegal (not only the rbr), but accepted by other teams after silverstone.
and yes vettel threw away 3-4 race wins in 2011.

#12757 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:02

You are the link.

but not the content.
and we are not debating each other here, we are debating the content  ;)

#12758 cardin

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:06

but not the content.
and we are not debating each other here, we are debating the content ;)

I was not trying to debate, I was just in awe about the kind of access you have on Alonso's head and Ferrari's team. How could I possible debate with someone like that ?

#12759 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:19

It is relevant because you mentioned his results. It is funny how you say alonso outdrived his rivals though. Based on what? Who says ferrari wasn't simply a good car on softer compounds? Fact remains though that alonso got 4th in WDC thus only could beat hamilton who had a terrible season. That's actually where the overall 3rd fastest car that was 2nd fastest or fastest on occasions allows a good driver to be. 2011 was alonso's 5th best season in F1 in my eyes, after 2005, 2006, 2010 and 2007, in that order.

Anyhow I am gonna refuse to get dragged into an endless debate over fan's "my driver is awesome", my mistake for even say anything frankly.

Who said anything about my driver is awesome and yours is not? You are trying really hard to diminish what Alonso achieved last year. The fact is that he got more out of the machinery given to him than anybody else bar Vettel. This can be seen in the final results and the races individually...

Do you think he should have been that close to second in the championship with the car he was driving relative to the others?

If you can answer that question honestly then you will have your answer.

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#12760 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:19

I was not trying to debate, I was just in awe about the kind of access you have on Alonso's head and Ferrari's team. How could I possible debate with someone like that ?

what else?
you are not trying to debate, classic you :down:

back to topic:
what i found so impressive about alonsos 2011 season is the knowledge of alonso that his car with harder compounds have no chance of racing with the best and the way how he tried to overcome that disadvantage with "overdriving" the car on the soft compounds to have a gap to maybe stay even with that disadvantage in front of the faster cars.
And in some occassions he managed it, and that was such a beauty.

Edited by YellowHelmet, 18 February 2012 - 12:20.


#12761 freya

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:30

Who said anything about my driver is awesome and yours is not? You are trying really hard to diminish what Alonso achieved last year. The fact is that he got more out of the machinery given to him than anybody else bar Vettel. This can be seen in the final results and the races individually...

Do you think he should have been that close to second in the championship with the car he was driving relative to the others?

If you can answer that question honestly then you will have your answer.


Why don't you stop being vague and tell us about the races where he got more from his car than others? I am not trying anything. You on the other hand have the premise that the ferrari was crap, while it wasn't and according to your very own logic was a good car in races (actually I remember you debating that hard last season). That logic just doesn't sit well with me. Alonso got good results when the car allowed him to, and shitty results when it didn't. He also had one of the worse drivers on the grid as team mate, so nothing to conclude from that.

The problem with driver discussions is that it is a never ending cycle. Maybe we can have a better judgement next year.

#12762 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:33

Why don't you stop being vague and tell us about the races where he got more from his car than others? I am not trying anything. You on the other hand have the premise that the ferrari was crap, while it wasn't and according to your very own logic was a good car in races (actually I remember you debating that hard last season). That logic just doesn't sit well with me. Alonso got good results when the car allowed him to, and shitty results when it didn't. He also had one of the worse drivers on the grid as team mate, so nothing to conclude from that.

and what qualifies you to say that :confused:


The problem with driver discussions is that it is a never ending cycle. Maybe we can have a better judgement next year.

thats not a problem, that can be fun too.

#12763 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:42

Thank you for your balanced reply.
If you read Puxanando´s reply above, the perception of Kimi is somewhat odd amongst FA´s fandom. I have never read anything about Kimi´s ups and downs however.


Easy now, Puxanando is fair. There is a reason why Kimi has the reputation he does. Now I'm not saying it's true, but I'd imagine the dates of those quotes weren't at the end of his tenure. And if he was lazy or hard to work with they're not going to call him out on it for obvious reasons. Even Ron said it in the most jokingly manner so as to avoid any backlash from the driver.

Again I'm not saying he's lazy, or can't set up a car. In the latest AS edition Lotus chief engineer says Kimi was quite knowledgeable of different fuel maps & differential maps and knew what he wanted. And for right or wrong, there is an opinion of Kimi at both Ferrari & McLaren that are similar. Puxanando is definitely an Alonso fan, but is fair.

#12764 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:48

Why don't you stop being vague and tell us about the races where he got more from his car than others? I am not trying anything. You on the other hand have the premise that the ferrari was crap, while it wasn't and according to your very own logic was a good car in races (actually I remember you debating that hard last season). That logic just doesn't sit well with me. Alonso got good results when the car allowed him to, and shitty results when it didn't. He also had one of the worse drivers on the grid as team mate, so nothing to conclude from that.

The problem with driver discussions is that it is a never ending cycle. Maybe we can have a better judgement next year.

You are going to have to start reading properly in order for this discussion to progress. I said it is a shitty car in the grand scheme of things. Meaning it was not a race winner like the Red Bull and McLaren. In it's own right it wasn't a bad car in races where the softer rubber was used but you would have us believe that the car was better than the McLaren and the Red Bull.

He outraced many in Turkey, Monaco, Europe, Silverstone, Germany, Belgium (when on the soft tyre), Italy (hard tyre was undoing against Button) Japan, India, Abu Dhabi, Brazil (once again the harder compound was undoing when battling Button). In only one of those races was the Ferrari clearly the fastest car and not to mention that development of the car seized after Hungary.

#12765 freya

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:54

You are going to have to start reading properly in order for this discussion to progress. I said it is a shitty car in the grand scheme of things. Meaning it was not a race winner like the Red Bull and McLaren. In it's own right it wasn't a bad car in races where the softer rubber was used but you would have us believe that the car was better than the McLaren and the Red Bull.

He outraced many in Turkey, Monaco, Europe, Silverstone, Germany, Belgium (when on the soft tyre), Italy (hard tyre was undoing against Button) Japan, India, Abu Dhabi, Brazil (once again the harder compound was undoing when battling Button). In only one of those races was the Ferrari clearly the fastest car and not to mention that development of the car seized after Hungary.


Wanted to go through those races one by one, but considering you said that ferrari had no development after hungary, I don't think we are going to have a fair discussion on this.

#12766 LiJu914

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:57

2011 was alonso's 5th best season in F1 in my eyes, after 2005, 2006, 2010 and 2007, in that order.


Even though i don´t agree with YellowHelmet´s "best season-performance of all time" at all...this is really a "funny" order.

I can only think of one of Alonso´s seasons, which i might put over 2011: 2006.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 February 2012 - 12:59.


#12767 SCUDmissile

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:57

WoW.

i just saw this again this morning. this was fantastic, and i don't believe button when he said he was going cautious. they were both on the marbles a little as well.

#12768 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:00

Even though i don´t agree with YellowHelmet´s "best season-performance of all time" at all

why not, what seasons of what driver(s) do you rate higher?





#12769 FenderJaguar

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:02

why not, what seasons of what driver(s) do you rate higher?


because he has an understanding of F1...

#12770 FenderJaguar

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:04

calling Alonso's 2011 best season ever isn't even funny. it is braindead.

#12771 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:05

calling Alonso's 2011 best season ever isn't even funny. it is braindead.

personal insults are no way to discuss any topic. :down:
raise your game

#12772 puxanando

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:24

Posted Image
> Photographer: Flavio Mazzi

:up: love this pic!

#12773 LiJu914

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:32

why not, what seasons of what driver(s) do you rate higher?


We already had the discussion that we just disagree and that i think´s it unnecessary to compare X examples of other driver´s seasons with Alonso´s...

Edited by LiJu914, 18 February 2012 - 13:34.


#12774 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:40

We already had the discussion that we just disagree and that i think´s it unnecessary to compare X examples of other driver´s seasons with Alonso´s...

so you just dont like to compare the drivers seasons, which i am fine with,
but you are not against my position that alonso drove in 2011 almost to perfection (under given circumstances)?

#12775 LiJu914

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:48

so you just dont like to compare the drivers seasons, which i am fine with,


More precisely: I don´t like to compare driver´s seasons over the whole history of F1 (that´s quite an enormous task ;) ).

but you are not against my position that alonso drove in 2011 almost to perfection (under given circumstances)?


How do i know whether he drove almost to perfection or not? As i don´t want to go into the semantics of such vocabulary i would just phrase it in a different way: From an outside-view it seems that Alonso achieved much better results than you could ask for, given the assumed quality of his car.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 February 2012 - 13:51.


#12776 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 13:56

More precisly: I don´t like to compare drivers seasons over the whole history of F1 (that´s quite an enormous task ;) ).

i see your point, and usually i also like to see it that way.
why i used the phrase "of all time", is maybe to point out how exceptional his performance was with so many races and such an inferrior material, which would have made many drivers demotivated driving with a car, being some kind competitive just over a period in a race and than after using the harder tyres losing all what was gained before. and still driving at maximum and still not making mistakes and still fighting till the end.

How do i know wther he drove almost to perfection or not? As i don´t want to go into the semantics of such vocabulary i would just phrase it in a different way: From an outsideview it seems that Alonso achieved much better results than you could ask given the assumed quality of his car.

which in some way is a more diplomatic way to say what i also wanted to point out.
and i am not going back in history i am just comparing this season achievements, but that is the reason why i rate his season over vettels (i have pointed out, why and where i think vettel could have achieved more) .

Edited by YellowHelmet, 18 February 2012 - 13:57.


#12777 Konsta

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 14:47

Easy now, Puxanando is fair. There is a reason why Kimi has the reputation he does. Now I'm not saying it's true, but I'd imagine the dates of those quotes weren't at the end of his tenure. And if he was lazy or hard to work with they're not going to call him out on it for obvious reasons. Even Ron said it in the most jokingly manner so as to avoid any backlash from the driver.

Again I'm not saying he's lazy, or can't set up a car. In the latest AS edition Lotus chief engineer says Kimi was quite knowledgeable of different fuel maps & differential maps and knew what he wanted. And for right or wrong, there is an opinion of Kimi at both Ferrari & McLaren that are similar. Puxanando is definitely an Alonso fan, but is fair.


And in which manner was he fair in his "quote". He said that Kimi´s communication with mechanics was VERY VERY poor but in a classy move he did not elaborate that any further. His own opinion or Ferrari mechanics´or from someone inside the team?

Equally fair would be for me to throw a comment like: "Everyone knows that FA deliberately broke LH´s car in the paddock", and leave it there to spread as "Common knowledge". Nothing even remotely fair about that.

#12778 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 14:52

And in which manner was he fair in his "quote". He said that Kimi´s communication with mechanics was VERY VERY poor but in a classy move he did not elaborate that any further. His own opinion or Ferrari mechanics´or from someone inside the team?

Equally fair would be for me to throw a comment like: "Everyone knows that FA deliberately broke LH´s car in the paddock", and leave it there to spread as "Common knowledge". Nothing even remotely fair about that.

this is the alonso thread and not the kimi thread

#12779 Konsta

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 14:59

this is the alonso thread and not the kimi thread

Sorry.

FA is def one of my favorites. Last year he was so much better than Flippy that it was nothing short of funny and very good in general. I see no reason to put him above SV nevertheless.

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#12780 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:06

And in which manner was he fair in his "quote". He said that Kimi´s communication with mechanics was VERY VERY poor but in a classy move he did not elaborate that any further. His own opinion or Ferrari mechanics´or from someone inside the team?

Equally fair would be for me to throw a comment like: "Everyone knows that FA deliberately broke LH´s car in the paddock", and leave it there to spread as "Common knowledge". Nothing even remotely fair about that.


First, it's she not he and maybe you didn't really follow Ferrari back then but there were definitely problems. I will show you lots of proof the team were unhappy with him if you please.

But it is not just about money. Luca di Montezemolo went on record several times, criticising Raikkonen for his lack of commitment, once famously wondering whether another Raikkonen had turned up to race, rather than the driver they thought they had signed.

Ferrari never knew from one race to the next, which Raikkonen was going to turn up.


http://www.jamesalle...kimi-raikkonen/

Whether the reports are right or wrong, she's just going off of his reputation.

Here's a snapshot of this weeks AutoSport edition, Kimi Interview, again about his reputation of not being technically inclined.
Posted Image

I think she was and is fair as I know her. But it's hard to say she wasn't being fair when the media say the same thing she said.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 18 February 2012 - 15:06.


#12781 puxanando

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:09

Alonso signed shirt......

#12782 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:09

Back to Alonso, as I said before he had a great season last year. Nobody did better except for possibly Vettel. I think this is the year Fernando gets number 3.

#12783 Konsta

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:11

First, it's she not he and maybe you didn't really follow Ferrari back then but there were definitely problems. I will show you lots of proof the team were unhappy with him if you please.

But it is not just about money. Luca di Montezemolo went on record several times, criticising Raikkonen for his lack of commitment, once famously wondering whether another Raikkonen had turned up to race, rather than the driver they thought they had signed.

Ferrari never knew from one race to the next, which Raikkonen was going to turn up.


http://www.jamesalle...kimi-raikkonen/

Whether the reports are right or wrong, she's just going off of his reputation.

Here's a snapshot of this weeks AutoSport edition, Kimi Interview, again about his reputation of not being technically inclined.
Posted Image

I think she was and is fair as I know her. But it's hard to say she wasn't being fair when the media say the same thing she said.


OK, I´ll end this with saying that circulating suspicious rumors without any hesitation is not fair IMHO. I quoted Chris Dyer and Nicholas Tombazis a bit earlier and they had nothing but praise - well, what do they know?

Let´s just agree to disagree. Only a couple of weeks till the season start!!

#12784 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:23

Let´s just agree to disagree. Only a couple of weeks till the season start!!


Yes I can't wait! Least we get to see Fernando in the car in a few days! :up:

#12785 YellowHelmet

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 15:32

Alonso signed shirt......

even though i dont understand that much, it was awesome to watch.
who is that guy?


#12786 bsoares

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 19:30

why not, what seasons of what driver(s) do you rate higher?


Clearly you've given this some thought so I ask you, what seasons of what driver come close to what Alonso has achieved in 2011.

Say, why don't you post your top 5 "best seasons" ever.

#12787 Ferrari2183

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 09:20

In no particular order in the last 20 years or so.
  • Both Prost and Senna '88 and '89 (this has got to rank pretty high up anybody's list for the teammate battle)
  • Mansell 92 (enough said)
  • Schumacher '97, '02, '04 (I rate his '97 season as one of the best in recent memory)
  • Alonso '06, '11 (amazing consistency in both these seasons. The latter half of 2010 saw the Alonso of old emerge again and he carried that into 2011)
  • Hamilton '07 (great rookie season, doubt it will be repeated)
  • Vettel '11 (enough said... Think it is fresh enough for people to remember)


#12788 YellowHelmet

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 21:56

For me:
1.
Michael Schumacher: 1992 and 1993
Nigel Mansell: 1992
Alonso: 2006 and 2011

2.
Vettel 2011

3.
HHF 1999

In those ranking there is no Senna and even no Prost, because from what i can remember non of them have been as consistent at the maximum during a whole season with almost no mistakes (also compared to their teammates) as the above listed were.
I accept every criticism, if it is without insult  ;)

I am not saying that the above listed were in genereal better over a whole carreer, i am just talking about one whole season.


#12789 F1Johnny

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:24

For me:
1.
Michael Schumacher: 1992 and 1993
Nigel Mansell: 1992
Alonso: 2006 and 2011

2.
Vettel 2011

3.
HHF 1999

In those ranking there is no Senna and even no Prost, because from what i can remember non of them have been as consistent at the maximum during a whole season with almost no mistakes (also compared to their teammates) as the above listed were.
I accept every criticism, if it is without insult ;)

I am not saying that the above listed were in genereal better over a whole carreer, i am just talking about one whole season.


Senna in 1991 and 1993

#12790 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:40

Senna in 1991 and 1993

Senna was quite impressive early on in '93 but had a big mid-season slump. He came storming back in the back end of the season though.

#12791 as65p

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:44

Senna was quite impressive early on in '93 but had a big mid-season slump. He came storming back in the back end of the season though.


I think it was the car that had that mid-season slump, but McLaren pressed on developing and it be came good again by Monza, but masked by Sennas one bad race of the season where he first tangled with Hill of the line and then ran into the back of Brundle.

In any case the choice of 92/93 as MS best seasons, consitency wise, is quite odd. Can't recall each of his races (as I still can with Sennas :blush: ), but from '93 I remember at least two driver error DNFs (Donington and Suzuka), same in '92 (Imola and Magny Cours)

#12792 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:10

I think it was the car that had that mid-season slump, but McLaren pressed on developing and it be came good again by Monza, but masked by Sennas one bad race of the season where he first tangled with Hill of the line and then ran into the back of Brundle.

In any case the choice of 92/93 as MS best seasons, consitency wise, is quite odd. Can't recall each of his races (as I still can with Sennas :blush: ), but from '93 I remember at least two driver error DNFs (Donington and Suzuka), same in '92 (Imola and Magny Cours)

I don't think it was so much the car because Hill had some great results during that period. He had a couple of wins and numerous podiums.

#12793 as65p

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:24

I don't think it was so much the car because Hill had some great results during that period. He had a couple of wins and numerous podiums.


What's got Hill in a Williams to do with how Senna performed in his McLaren? :confused:

I get the impression you don't reall remember that much from that period, and anyway whe're definitely way OT, so best save further elaboration for another day, another topic, shall we? :wave:

#12794 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:58

Agree - lets stick with Alonso please.

A discussion of what you consider to be the most consistent error-free season by any driver might make a good standalone topic but in here it's way off topic.

#12795 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:14

What's got Hill in a Williams to do with how Senna performed in his McLaren? :confused:

I get the impression you don't reall remember that much from that period, and anyway whe're definitely way OT, so best save further elaboration for another day, another topic, shall we? :wave:

My apologies. Blonde moment there. I remember '93 quite well because it was the last time I watched a Formula 1 race live.

#12796 freya

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:45

My apologies. Blonde moment there. I remember '93 quite well because it was the last time I watched a Formula 1 race live.


You haven't watched a live race since 93? :o

#12797 as65p

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:54

My apologies. Blonde moment there. I remember '93 quite well because it was the last time I watched a Formula 1 race live.


:lol: :up: No problem, happens to all of us.  ;)

#12798 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:04

You haven't watched a live race since 93? :o

Indeed. South African GP at Kyalami. Prost skinned everybody in the race despite a bad start and lapped everybody but Senna.

Can't remember to well though but I think '93 was the last time they had pre-qualifying on a friday as well.

#12799 Watkins74

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 19:51

Who's testing tomorrow, Fernando or Felipe?

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#12800 crespo

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 19:57

Who's testing tomorrow, Fernando or Felipe?

Fernando IIRC