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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#1701 Lifew12

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:03

who is they?
and where do you have the information they did before kimi crashed?


It's well documented; after Hamilton passed Raikkonen for the second time McLaren contacted Race Control to ask if they had done sufficient to satisfy them, to make sure a penalty would not be awarded. It's well known, confirmed in fact, that race control told them they had. This isn't up for argument, it's not a secret by any means.

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#1702 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:06

who is they?
and where do you have the information they did before kimi crashed?

If you are arguing about this, how don't you know the events that occurred :rolleyes: ?

#1703 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:06

It's well documented; after Hamilton passed Raikkonen for the second time McLaren contacted Race Control to ask if they had done sufficient to satisfy them, to make sure a penalty would not be awarded. It's well known, confirmed in fact, that race control told them they had. This isn't up for argument, it's not a secret by any means.

wo did that, the stewards? or whiting? who did that?
did they also took into account that on the same occassion in 2005 they penalised alonso (afte he build a gap of 5-6 sek on kline) to let him repass!
i think that the stewards had to much to do in that round to state something unanimously!

#1704 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:08

If you are arguing about this, how don't you know the events that occurred :rolleyes: ?

i know it, i just want to know if you are aware of who said that, and who is allowed to say that and if it is possible for the stewards to make a unanimious decision so fast on that, especially as in that round there were some other things that were out of rule!

#1705 Mika Mika

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:08

It's well documented; after Hamilton passed Raikkonen for the second time McLaren contacted Race Control to ask if they had done sufficient to satisfy them, to make sure a penalty would not be awarded. It's well known, confirmed in fact, that race control told them they had. This isn't up for argument, it's not a secret by any means.


Yes thats true,and whiting said everything was okay but Max pointed out that whiting had no authority to say that and only donnely and the stewards can make the correct determination.

#1706 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:10

Yes thats true,and whiting said everything was okay but Max pointed out that whiting had no authority to say that and only donnely and the stewards can make the correct determination.

is whiting the stewards?
no!
and had whiting in mind, that regarding the same thing that happened in suzuka 05 alonso was forced to let klien repass?

#1707 Lifew12

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:10

Yes thats true,and whiting said everything was okay but Max pointed out that whiting had no authority to say that and only donnely and the stewards can make the correct determination.


Absolutely, and this was later proved to be nonsense as on the FIA website it refers to race control being there to answer such queries during races......

#1708 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:10

Please back on topic gentlemen. - Fernando Alonso.

#1709 Number62

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:12

i know it, i just want to know if you are aware of who said that, and who is allowed to say that and if it is possible for the stewards to make a unanimious decision so fast on that, especially as in that round there were some other things that were out of rule!


Stewards decisions too quick?!

You argued before that the Valencia steward decsions were too slow.

What is the precise acceptable time for a stewards decision? And as this is F1 you can go to a thousandth of a second.

#1710 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:12

Absolutely, and this was later proved to be nonsense as on the FIA website it refers to race control being there to answer such queries during races......

a person alone, especially if he is that old, which can harm his capacity of rembering (alonso in suzuka 2005) should not be allowed to decide on that, and he is not the stewards!

#1711 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:13

Stewards decisions too quick?!

You argued before that the Valencia steward decsions were too slow.

What is the precise acceptable time for a stewards decision? And as this is F1 you can go to a thousandth of a second.

steward havent decided on that!
that is the point!
it was whiting! and he may have said that, but if so he said that too fast, without taking stewards into decision!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 14:14.


#1712 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:15

it is an agreement between drivers and the fia, even if it was not published in the british press. (heidfeld ans alonso said after that race, that they are discussing that very often in the meeting of drivers!)
especially after that happened already in suzuka 2005
alonso cutted the chicane and passed so klien, he let klien repass and directly overtook klien
and had to let klien repass 2-3 laps later!
see this video about min. 6:55

nobody was whining when it happened to alonso, but when it happened to hamilton everybody says it is unfair :down:

You have this completely wrong.

The stewards missed the first time Alonso gave the place back. They apologised to Renault for having done so and said that, had they seen it, they would not have asked him to give the place back a second time.

That video is therefore a precedent for Hamilton's move being ok.

And I think you will find that Biratore did whine about the decision. So you are wrong about that too.

#1713 greebo

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:16

it is an agreement between drivers and the fia, even if it was not published in the british press. (heidfeld ans alonso said after that race, that they are discussing that very often in the meeting of drivers!)
especially after that happened already in suzuka 2005
alonso cutted the chicane and passed so klien, he let klien repass and directly overtook klien
and had to let klien repass 2-3 laps later!
see this video about min. 6:55

nobody was whining when it happened to alonso, but when it happened to hamilton everybody says it is unfair :down:


Also see part 4 of that same video- http://www.myvideo.at/watch/7300129 - at 03:00 what Ted Kravitz has to say down at Renault is fascinating. As usual Hanlon's razor applies.

(To save you listening to the video, the FIA instruction to Renault that Alonso should let Klien back past a second time was a mistake, but by the time they corrected themselves to Renault, Alonso had already backed off and let him through again.)

#1714 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:17

The stewards missed the first time Alonso gave the place back. They apologised to Renault for having done so and said that, had they seen it, they would not have asked him to give the place back a second time.

link?
and if the drivers had admitted to avoid such illegal advantages after cutting the chicanes, as heidfeld mentioned after spa 2008, why do you think hamilton was right?

#1715 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:24

link?

http://img239.images...82604ye7.th.jpg

http://www.timesonli...ticle576872.ece

So the precedent was that it was fine.

#1716 Lifew12

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:25

why do you think hamilton was right?


Hamilton wasn't 'right' to cut the chicane, but he was 'right' to give the place back, and perfectly within his rights to pass raikkonen again when he did. No rule, even to this day, says otherwise.

#1717 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:35

So the precedent was that it was fine.

again that was just published in the british press!
not even briatore said that the stewards changed their opinion, and not alonso!
maybe there was a misunderstanding within the press, but the stewards have just stated once to renault!
and after the race no stewards excused himself to renault, or whiting!
so as long as if you cant state a position of the stewards, this is just a phantasm of some people!

not even the spanish press has printed something in that way!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 14:37.


#1718 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:39

again that was just published in the british press!

That automatically means it's wrong then :rolleyes: .

#1719 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:41

Wow you never know when to just concede.

sure i know, if there are enough evidences, sure, but if briatore havent said that, if alonso havent said that, if the spanish and german and italian press didnt say this, why i should believe in it, without having the quotes of the stewards?

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#1720 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:42

again that was just published in the british press!

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Autocourse is a pretty well respected publication.

#1721 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:43

http://3.bp.blogspot...oken-record.jpg

Autocourse is a pretty well respected publication.

without any quotes of the stewards!


#1722 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:45

without any quotes of the stewards!

So we have two well respected sources claiming this happened. And no denials. But you believe it didn't happen purely because this is the British press.

Please tell me why the fact it is the British press means it is less likely to be true. Why would they completely make it up? After all, the incident had no impact on any British driver until 3 years after the publications were made. Do you think they can see the future and decided making up these reports would benefit Hamilton so they did it? :drunk:

#1723 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:47

sure i know, if there are enough evidences, sure, but if briatore havent said that, if alonso havent said that, if the spanish and german and italian press didnt say this, why i should believe in it, without having the quotes of the stewards?

People here have found articles by respected publications disproving your claims. If you still want to continue arguing over this why don't you find counter publications offering an alternative point of view.

#1724 velgajski1

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:47

sure i know, if there are enough evidences, sure, but if briatore havent said that, if alonso havent said that, if the spanish and german and italian press didnt say this, why i should believe in it, without having the quotes of the stewards?


In that case, please stop posting on autosport forums and post on spanish, german and italian forums instead :rolleyes:

#1725 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:49

So we have two well respected sources claiming this happened. And no denials. But you believe it didn't happen purely because this is the British press.

why do you try to get me wrong?
i said no other medias (spanish, german, italian) and no renault officials said anything similar to that, and those articles are not qouting any steward or other fia official and so are not reliable!.
thats what i am saying!

if it were printed in the spanish and other medias, and if briatore or alonso have said that, then you are absolutely right that this is no precendece. (but that doesnt mean, that in the meantime as heidfeld said the drivers have decided not to make that!)

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 14:49.


#1726 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:50

People here have found articles by respected publications disproving your claims. If you still want to continue arguing over this why don't you find counter publications offering an alternative point of view.

in all other press releases there is no talks of a misunderstanding between fia and renault!
so i think that is prove enough!

#1727 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:52

in all other press releases there is no talks of a misunderstanding between fia and renault!
so i think that is prove enough!

No it's not. Find an article about the race which states that race control correctly gave Alonso the nod to let Klien repass.

#1728 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:54

No it's not. Find an article about the race which states that race control correctly gave Alonso the nod to let Klien repass.

there are articles which say they gave him a penalty, without using the words rightly or wrongly!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 14:54.


#1729 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:58

there are articles which say they gave him a penalty, without using the words rightly or wrongly!

Exactly. So the only publications that comment on the reason for the instruction to let him repass a second time state the reason was that the stewards missed the first repass. So the only evidence we have one way or the other on this is that the stewards considered that the first repass was acceptable.

In the absence of any conflicting evidence, and given the respected nature of Autocourse's reporting, I think it is fair to conclude that the stewards decided (once they had seen it) that Alonso letting Klien repass the first time was sufficient.

#1730 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:01

Exactly. So the only publications that comment on the reason for the instruction to let him repass a second time state the reason was that the stewards missed the first repass. So the only evidence we have one way or the other on this is that the stewards considered that the first repass was acceptable.

if just some reporters say that without quoting, how reliable it is!

and why didnt alonso say that or briatore?





#1731 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:01

In the absence of any conflicting evidence, and given the respected nature of Autocourse's reporting, I think it is fair to conclude that the stewards decided (once they had seen it) that Alonso letting Klien repass the first time was sufficient.

Well said :up: .

#1732 Mika Mika

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:02

if just some reporters say that without quoting, how reliable it is!

and why didnt alonso say that or briatore?


Briatore thinks sparks make a F1 car go faster... how reliable is he?

#1733 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:04

if just some reporters say that without quoting, how reliable it is!

You think Autocourse and Kevin Eason would just make something up out of thin air?

#1734 Mika Mika

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:05

You think Autocourse and Kevin Eason would just make something up out of thin air?


If it doent fit his agenda - yes!

#1735 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:07

if just some reporters say that without quoting, how reliable it is!

and why didnt alonso say that or briatore?

Here's another article that claims the same. They seem to take it as given that the pass was missed by the stewards: http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr749.html

#1736 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:07

You think Autocourse and Kevin Eason would just make something up out of thin air?

if they dont quote anybody?
what do you think?
why didnt they quote anybody?

#1737 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:09

Here's another article that claims the same. They seem to take it as given that the pass was missed by the stewards: http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr749.html

Within half a lap Fernando had overtaken him properly although this appears to have been missed by the stewards (who were probably watching the poor TV coverage) and the result was that a few laps later Alonso was told by the FIA to back off and let the Red Bull go ahead again. In order to do that he had to sacrifice around four seconds to allow Klien to catch up. He lost so much time that everyone thought he had a mechanical problem or had gone off and the incident had been missed by the TV director


so they are speculating. they say it appears, and do not quote either any steward!
and they are not telling that there was a miscommunication between fia and renault!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 15:12.


#1738 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:12

Was that a yes to my question or a no?

You think Autocourse and Kevin Eason would just make something up out of thin air?

#1739 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:14


Was that a yes to my question or a no?

You think Autocourse and Kevin Eason would just make something up out of thin air?

witout quoting anybody, nothing else can be concluded (i am just takling about that article, not in general!)

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#1740 Duck of Death

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:15

http://www.racers-re...ayed-at-mclaren

"Fernando was clearly our No1 driver. I think he liked that. And when he joined McLaren, I'm sure he expected the same thing," Nielsen said. "But McLaren treat their drivers equally and Lewis, even though in his first year in F1, was very fast. Fernando was shocked at having been denied number one status and surprised by Lewis's speed. It was an uncomfortable situation for him.


The truth form the horse's mouth.

Edited by Duck of Death, 05 July 2010 - 15:16.


#1741 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:17

http://www.racers-re...ayed-at-mclaren

"Fernando was clearly our No1 driver. I think he liked that. And when he joined McLaren, I'm sure he expected the same thing," Nielsen said. "But McLaren treat their drivers equally and Lewis, even though in his first year in F1, was very fast. Fernando was shocked at having been denied number one status and surprised by Lewis's speed. It was an uncomfortable situation for him.


The truth form the horse's mouth.

we already discussed that undifferentiated statement :down:

#1742 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:17

the results were before incident: kimi before p1 after p11 losing 10 positions because of lewis mistake and was unable to win due to that!
massa before p4 after p9 losing 5 places!

Effectively Hamilton locked up. Just like what Kimi did to Sutil at Monaco. Let's look at positions before and after in that incident. Before Sutil p4, after DNF. He lost Force India's first ever championship points. What penalty did Kimi get?

such articles are called propaganda :down:

Propaganda? Are you somehow suggesting that Britain is some sort of communist country like North Korea that futilely disputes anything that is anti-British?

#1743 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:18

witout quoting anybody, nothing else can be concluded (i am just takling about that article, not in general!)


Ok, so you dismiss the evidence of 2 respected publications on the basis that in the absence of quotes you will conclude that they are making stuff up. Fair enough if that's the way you see it - you are as welcome to come to that conclusion as I am to come to a conclusion on your credibility on the basis of it.

Now I guess we get to find out about the constency of the standards that you hold. As you were claiming that the reason for the stewards ordering a second repass was because Alonso attacked too quickly after he allowed the first repass, I trust you will provide quotes from the stewards supporting this view?

After all, with no quotes you claim you are forced to conclude that it has been made up. So I trust you have quotes from the stewards to back up your original claim?

#1744 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:19

Effectively Hamilton locked up. Just like what Kimi did to Sutil at Monaco. Let's look at positions before and after in that incident. Before Sutil p4, after DNF. He lost Force India's first ever championship points. What penalty did Kimi get?

what did he gained through it, and wasnt he reprimanded for that!

#1745 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:26

After all, with no quotes you claim you are forced to conclude that it has been made up. So I trust you have quotes from the stewards to back up your original claim?

no! the only thing that i have is quote of briatore in german where he is saying he doesnt know, why they got a penalty (which implies, the stewards didnt informed them!)
i have a quote of heidfeld saying that before spa 2008 they were discussing this and that all drivers came to the conclusion they wont profite on such things!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 15:28.


#1746 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:26

let us stick to formual 1.

Then stop bringing up rubbish about the British media and propaganda :rolleyes: .

#1747 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:29

no! the only thing that i have is quote of briatore in german where he is saying he doesnt know, why they got a penalty (which implies, the stewards didnt informed them!)

So why were you claiming that it was a precedent for the Hamilton incident?

By your own standards, you did not have sufficient information to make such a claim. But you made it ...

#1748 Mika Mika

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:29

no! the only thing that i have is quote of briatore in german where he is saying he doesnt know, why they got a penalty (which implies, the stewards didnt informed them!)


Dude, Briatore is (officially) the biggest cheat in the history of the sport - you can trust him as far as you can throw him (which isnt very fat as he's very fat)

#1749 YellowHelmet

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:31

By your own standards, you did not have sufficient information to make such a claim. But you made it ...

by watching the footage! and so making an own opinion!

regarding precendence, because the same happened!
but as i said, even if that was no precendence (although it was), that doesnt mean that the drivers have decided not to profit on that!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 05 July 2010 - 15:34.


#1750 Gareth

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 15:35

by watching the footage! and so making an own opinion!

So you watched the footage and assumed the reason for the stewards' decision with no other information? Yet you criticise Autocourse and Eason for apparently making things up!

I will go with Autocourse's report on the reason for the stewards' decision rather than your assumption based on youtube.

I wonder whether you'll be decent enough to concede that you have no evidence that the Alonso/Klien incident was the precedent you thought it was?