Jump to content


Photo

Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
14493 replies to this topic

#2001 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:24

i am just judging on the speed both showed the whole weekend (friday, saturday, sunday)! especially also on the long runs!


So you're being no less 'ridiculous' than those who are also 'judging' on other evidence, then, are you?


Advertisement

#2002 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:25

Q2 (which has about as much meaning as Q1) FA was just 0.048 seconds quicker than LH not even a tenth. the

those were the fastest times of saturday, so they count most

fuel corrected times, as i have shown in another calculation cant be trusted to those 0.023s/kg otherwise the ideal time would have been aroung 1.14.3 on saturday in monaco and no one even come close to 1.15.0

#2003 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:26

So you're being no less 'ridiculous' than those who are also 'judging' on other evidence, then, are you?

why, i am not forgetting than on all three days alonso was fastest!
those who just base their opinion on one lap and a very unreliable fuel corrected time-stat do!
let us take all three days into acount and on each of those days alonso was fastest!
fair enough, dont you think?

#2004 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,961 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:26

look at the whole weekend and you will see, lewis was just slightly slower!

I would like to see your proof for this statement that you repeat like parrot.

Lewis was quicker in P3, quicker in Q1 by 0,4sec., there was nothing between them in Q2, not that its proving anything but lets see your proof first oK?

In race LEwis was loosing in first stint mainly due to his heavier fuel load, too. As said many times, his strategy was aimed at race with some unexpected events not to race Alonso, he could hardly jump him in pits when fresh tires gave enough boost to hold position.

Sure Alonso was quick in race, but Lewis might have been as quick on same strategy. In quali Lewis pulled off better lap when it counted but couldnt capitalize on it. But he for sure let the world know about it.


#2005 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:27

those were the fastest times of saturday, so they count most


Far from it; the times in Q3 and the race count more.

#2006 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:28

the thing is, hamilton was very fast at that weekend, but he was slightly, just slightly slower than alonso.

I think on race day he definitely was. So with Alonso ahead on the grid, he had no chance (regardless of whether he'd run his strategy in full or not).

i find it ridiculous (nothing against you, i mean for others who have published that!) to come up with an irrelevant q3 fuel corrected time-stat to say that lewis would have had a possibility to win if he was on same strategy as alonso was!
look at the whole weekend and you will see, lewis was just slightly slower!

If you are trying to answer the hypothetical question: how would they have done on the same strategy? I can't think of a much better starting point than a Q3 fuel corrected time. And given the nature of Monaco, if that hypothetical time would put Hamilton on pole then he would (IMO) have been in with a shot of a win. Now that's two big ifs: 1. could Hamilton, on a lower fuel load, have hit his hypothetical "fuel corrected" time; and 2. if he did, could he have kept, a clearly faster on Sunday, Alonso behind? But still, there's a possibility the answer to those 2 questions is yes. And no amount of times of being reminded that Alonso was faster on Friday or in Q1 or Q2 is going to change my opinion on that really.

#2007 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:29

why, i am not forgetting than on all three days alonso was fastest!
those who just base their opinion on one lap and a very unreliable fuel corrected time-stat do!
let us take all three days into acount and on each of those days alonso was fastest!
fair enough, dont you think?



No, because you are proving no more than they are, and simply using the statistics that give you the answer you want to show. That Alonso was faster on all three days has no bearing at all on the possibility of a different outcome with alternate strategies in teh race, does it? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that you accusing others of being 'ridiculous' because they propose statistics that show their interpretation of the facts is rather rich considering you are doing exactly the same thing.




#2008 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:31

I would like to see your proof for this statement that you repeat like parrot.

fastest time on thursday 1.15.940 was set in fp2 by alonso thursday fp2
fastest time on saturday 1.15.431 was set in q2 by alonso saturday
fastest time on sunday 1.15.372 was set by alonso fastest laps

#2009 Jay101

Jay101
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:34

those were the fastest times of saturday, so they count most

fuel corrected times, as i have shown in another calculation cant be trusted to those 0.023s/kg otherwise the ideal time would have been aroung 1.14.3 on saturday in monaco and no one even come close to 1.15.0

Yeah, I didn't quite get that post and what you were comparing. But if it was LH's Q3 time fuel corrected to his Q2 time then did you take into account that Q2 may have been run on the harder compound tyre?

#2010 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:36

If you are trying to answer the hypothetical question: how would they have done on the same strategy? I can't think of a much better starting point than a Q3 fuel corrected time. And given the nature of Monaco, if that hypothetical time would put Hamilton on pole then he would (IMO) have been in with a shot of a win. Now that's two big ifs: 1. could Hamilton, on a lower fuel load, have hit his hypothetical "fuel corrected" time; and 2. if he did, could he have kept, a clearly faster on Sunday, Alonso behind? But still, there's a possibility the answer to those 2 questions is yes. And no amount of times of being reminded that Alonso was faster on Friday or in Q1 or Q2 is going to change my opinion on that really.

the highlightened parts are the ones that shows me you are not joking!
you are aware of the incoherence of the fuel corrected times with the possibility of lewis being faster!


#2011 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:42

the highlightened parts are the ones that shows me you are not joking!
you are aware of the incoherence of the fuel corrected times with the possibility of lewis being faster!

I'm sorry I can't understand what you are saying here.

#2012 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:44

I'm sorry I can't understand what you are saying here.

:blush:
i try to express it differently
you are aware of the fact that those fuel corrected times (no proof that they are correct) dont say anything about how fast lewis would have been if he drove with the same fuel load of alonso --> that would be another situation and so not comparable!

your words

could Hamilton, on a lower fuel load, have hit his hypothetical "fuel corrected" time;


Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 July 2010 - 13:47.


#2013 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,961 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:47

fastest time on thursday 1.15.940 was set in fp2 by alonso thursday fp2
fastest time on saturday 1.15.431 was set in q2 by alonso saturday
fastest time on sunday 1.15.372 was set by alonso fastest laps

I though so. This proves nothing. Sorry but you are plain ridiculous, you dismiss all the talk about Q3 as inconclusive but you bring forward some thursdays laptime.

For Q3, once you understand that its the only time they push 100% esp.in Monaco (well maybe not Fernando as shown this year) :), no matter how you bent numbers, 5 laps diff in fuel load makes up more than 0,179 sec. in laptime. with margin

#2014 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:48

I though so. This proves nothing. Sorry but you are plain ridiculous, you dismiss all the talk about Q3 as inconclusive but you bring forward some thursdays laptime.

i brought the fastest times of all three days, which were set all by alonso and i come to the conclusion, alonso was fastest on that particular weekend!

tell me where is here the antagonism?

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 July 2010 - 13:49.


#2015 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:52

i brought the fastest times of all three days, which were set all by alonso and i come to the conclusion, alonso was fastest on that particular weekend!

tell me where is here the antagonism?



BUT - in china (same year) alonso was faster than Hamilton all weekend until quali 3 where hamilton was 0.6 faster than him - pratice shows nothing im afraid..

#2016 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:52

you are aware of the fact that those fuel corrected times (no proof that they are correct) dont say anything about how fast lewis would have been if he drove withh the same fuel load of alonso --> that would be another situation and so not comparable!

I agree there is no proof they are correct. I disagree that they "don't say anything". There's some space between "proof" and "irrelevence" and I think this falls in that space.

#2017 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 13:58

BUT - in china (same year) alonso was faster than Hamilton all weekend until quali 3 where hamilton was 0.6 faster than him - pratice shows nothing im afraid..

lewis was lighter (3 laps) than alonso in q3 before that alonso was faster!
some kind more of a proof of the mclaren-screwjob in 2007

#2018 richard01

richard01
  • Member

  • 104 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:00

I am pretty sure that I can find the same conspiracy theories in spanish forums.

#2019 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:01

lewis was lighter (3 laps) than alonso in q3 before that alonso was faster!
some kind more of a proof of the mclaren-screwjob in 2007


3 laps of fuel is not 0.6 in China ever.....
Alonso kicked a door off it's hinges when he found out he had been beaten by such a margin!

Advertisement

#2020 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:03

3 laps of fuel is not 0.6 in China ever.....
Alonso kicked a door off it's hinges when he found out he had been beaten by such a margin!

i have not that race on my mind!
but i think that was the race with the tyre pressure issue in q3!

#2021 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:07

i have not that race on my mind!
but i think that was the race with the tyre pressure issue in q3!


This has since been dismissed by Alonso himself. Regarding Shanghai he recently said: “I realised tyre pressures were too high and this can happen in qualifying. It was coincidence and a bit of bad luck.”



#2022 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:08

lewis was lighter (3 laps) than alonso in q3 before that alonso was faster!
some kind more of a proof of the mclaren-screwjob in 2007


I've heard from someone, somewhere that alonso was lighter in monaco....I expect that's a different situation though...

#2023 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:10

I've heard from someone, somewhere that alonso was lighter in monaco....I expect that's a different situation though...

alonso was faster in monaco whole weekend and was lighter in q3
alonso was faster in china whole weekend and was heavier in q3
that is the difference

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 July 2010 - 14:12.


#2024 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:11

This has since been dismissed by Alonso himself. Regarding Shanghai he recently said: “I realised tyre pressures were too high and this can happen in qualifying. It was coincidence and a bit of bad luck.”

so it was not alonsos fault!

#2025 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:11

alonso was faster in china whole weekend and was heavier


He was a LOT slower in quali and the race...

#2026 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:12

so it was not alonsos fault!


His setup so very possiably his fault

#2027 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:12

He was a LOT slower in quali and the race...

you mentioned yourself, he had some issues in q3 with tyres

#2028 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:13

His setup so very possiably his fault

tyre pressures in q3 was not about alonso!


#2029 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,742 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:14

you mentioned yourself, he had some issues in q3 with tyres


And??? was still slower - his setup made him slower.

He was slower inthe race too on different tyres.

#2030 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:15

alonso was faster in monaco whole weekend and was lighter in q3
alonso was faster in china whole weekend and was heavier in q3
that is the difference


Good to know that Q1 and Q3 are no longer important indicators of pace.

But thumbs up to you, you remind me of my friend who will continue to argue against all comers and had his own peculiar logic too.

#2031 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:18

And??? was still slower - his setup made him slower.

He was slower inthe race too on different tyres.

his setup made him drive as fast as hamilton did till q3 and than he had some issues with the tyre pressures, which were not his fault!
and it is not cleared till today, why that happened?

#2032 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 14:19

But thumbs up to you, you remind me of my friend who will continue to argue against all comers and had his own peculiar logic too.

:confused:

what ever :down:

#2033 skid solo

skid solo
  • Member

  • 2,208 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 July 2010 - 15:36

hey everything is cool!
the thing is, hamilton was very fast at that weekend, but he was slightly, just slightly slower than alonso.
nothing bad about that!
i find it ridiculous (nothing against you, i mean for others who have published that!) to come up with an irrelevant q3 fuel corrected time-stat to say that lewis would have had a possibility to win if he was on same strategy as alonso was!
look at the whole weekend and you will see, lewis was just slightly slower!


Testa di giallo Hamilton was on for pole position by a massive margin with more fuel in the car than Alonso. If he had not been held up by Mark Webber from the top of Mirabeau to Portier he would have blitzed Alonso's pole time. I hardly consider that slower!

#2034 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 9,338 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 07 July 2010 - 15:51

This thread has gone belly up. Alonso is driving for Ferrari now, can we focus on that please, even if it's for just one day. No doubt that 2007 was important in his career but it's history.

I hope to see a rampant Alonso at Silverstone (with no mistakes) maybe Massa can come to the party as well.

#2035 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,521 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 07 July 2010 - 16:02

Testa di giallo Hamilton was on for pole position by a massive margin with more fuel in the car than Alonso. If he had not been held up by Mark Webber from the top of Mirabeau to Portier he would have blitzed Alonso's pole time. I hardly consider that slower!


Thats just a myth. Webber was at least 50 metres down the road when hamilton blew the lap all on his own with a big slide into Loews.

#2036 Frostbomb

Frostbomb
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 16:20

In what channel, La Sexta, BBC?


BBC.

He admitted it was 90% his fault staying in the garage.

The way they described what happened in Australia is curious. "Lack of traction, slipped in the white line" not exactly a lie but at least an omission and when you couple all these omissions whith the article title the intentions are very clear.


Another forummer talking about it as well! Posted Image

#2037 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 16:46

Thats just a myth. Webber was at least 50 metres down the road when hamilton blew the lap all on his own with a big slide into Loews.


No Webber did hold him up, all the way to Portier.

#2038 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 16:58

No Webber did hold him up, all the way to Portier.

webber holded him up, he made a small error in loews and had more fuel on board than alonso .. and and and
please stop with those excuses
alonso was slightly faster and thats it!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 July 2010 - 17:00.


#2039 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:03

webber holded him up, he made a small error in loews and had more fuel on board than alonso .. and and and
please stop with those excuses
alonso was slightly faster and thats it!


Well Lewis could have had pole, quite likely, more fuel or not. Then what? Anyway the team saw enough to give the two of them equal strategy thereafter.

Advertisement

#2040 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:05

Well Lewis could have had pole, quite likely, more fuel or not.

if alonso was not that fast on that weekend, surely!

#2041 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,970 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:07

webber holded him up, he made a small error in loews and had more fuel on board than alonso .. and and and
please stop with those excuses
alonso was slightly faster and thats it!


If you dont want hear any excuses, then you obviously wont use any excuses for Hamilton and Trulli beating Alonso when they were teammates either, right?

#2042 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:09

webber holded him up, he made a small error in loews and had more fuel on board than alonso .. and and and
please stop with those excuses
alonso was slightly faster and thats it!


I didn't meant to offend you with my previous comment but this is a great example of what I mean.
How can more fuel on board be counted as an excuse? It's a valid reason to be slower and being faster fuel corrected would be enough for most people to accept that driver did a better job with their Q3 lap.
But you continuously ignore logic with statements such as 'alonso was slightly faster and thats it'.


#2043 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:22

It's a valid reason to be slower and being faster fuel corrected would be enough for most people to accept that driver did a better job with their Q3 lap.

if you are heavier, sure it is valid to be slower!
fuel corrected times, we have no valid stats about that, so there is no reason to say lewis was better in q3



But you continuously ignore logic with statements such as 'alonso was slightly faster and thats it'.

i am not ignoring logic if i say the fastest guy of the whole monaco 2007 weekend (fastest on all 3 days) alonso won the race!
others who want to ignore the fact that the fastest won fair and square ignore logic!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 July 2010 - 17:24.


#2044 YellowHelmet

YellowHelmet
  • Member

  • 3,800 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:23

If you dont want hear any excuses, then you obviously wont use any excuses for Hamilton and Trulli beating Alonso when they were teammates either, right?

trulli counting both years lost (according points) to alonso
in 2007 hamilton and alonso had the same amount of points, with alonso beating lewis 10:7 in races!

#2045 Campeador

Campeador
  • Member

  • 296 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 17:39

What other stats do you want? You give no credit because you do not like the conclusion, but the figures are good.

The stats might be good, as accurate as we can get that type of info, but the conclusion is wrong.

Gareth:
So there is a decent argument that, on the same strategy (ie fuel load), Hamilton would have qualified ahead of Alonso and, given the nature of Monaco, even if Alonso was faster come race day that Hamilton could have won.

First conclusion I give it to you for grant. Let's say Hamilton had qualified ahead on the pole. You give Alonso 5 extra laps of fuel or you make him stop a lap earlier than Hamilton. If we want to analyse it properly we should consider to swap strategies and not the same one for both drivers.

Alonso would have make both strategies, his and Hamilton's, work for him in Monaco 2007. Agree?

#2046 syph0nJZ05

syph0nJZ05
  • Member

  • 2,602 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 18:05

if alonso was not that fast on that weekend, surely!

Can I just ask, are you aware that the practice sessions don't actually count for anything? They are simply there for the teams and drivers to test set-ups etc. Very often we would see drivers like Rosberg (when still at Williams) topping the time sheets in the free practice sessions all the time in 2008 and 2009. Yet when it came to qualy know-one really thought; wow he's been quickest all weekend so far, I bet he's a sure shot for pole.

#2047 syph0nJZ05

syph0nJZ05
  • Member

  • 2,602 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 18:08

trulli counting both years lost (according points) to alonso
in 2007 hamilton and alonso had the same amount of points, with alonso beating lewis 10:7 in races!

In 2007, who came higher in the WDC standings out of the two McLaren drivers, bearing in mind one was in his rookie season?

Edited by syph0nJZ05, 07 July 2010 - 18:09.


#2048 syph0nJZ05

syph0nJZ05
  • Member

  • 2,602 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 18:13

The stats might be good, as accurate as we can get that type of info, but the conclusion is wrong.

Gareth:
So there is a decent argument that, on the same strategy (ie fuel load), Hamilton would have qualified ahead of Alonso and, given the nature of Monaco, even if Alonso was faster come race day that Hamilton could have won.

First conclusion I give it to you for grant. Let's say Hamilton had qualified ahead on the pole. You give Alonso 5 extra laps of fuel or you make him stop a lap earlier than Hamilton. If we want to analyse it properly we should consider to swap strategies and not the same one for both drivers.

Alonso would have make both strategies, his and Hamilton's, work for him in Monaco 2007. Agree?

Do you agree that the driver on pole in Monaco with a reasonable strategy like Alonso had in 2007 is usually the favorite to win the race? I'm going to assume yes. Thus if Hamilton had been on pole with a decent strategy like Alonso had in 2007 is it reasonable to assume he would have been favorite to win? Now bearing this in mind, does it make Gareth's (already perfectly clear) post any clearer?

#2049 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,625 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 07 July 2010 - 21:17

his setup made him drive as fast as hamilton did till q3 and than he had some issues with the tyre pressures, which were not his fault!
and it is not cleared till today, why that happened?


Why did Hamiltons Nurburing Quali happen? How about Monza tyre burst or China too late pit-call or Brazil problems? Jeez, Alonso had 1 meager tyre problem and its all a worldwide conspiracy.

#2050 Campeador

Campeador
  • Member

  • 296 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 07 July 2010 - 21:50

Do you agree that the driver on pole in Monaco with a reasonable strategy like Alonso had in 2007 is usually the favorite to win the race? I'm going to assume yes. Thus if Hamilton had been on pole with a decent strategy like Alonso had in 2007 is it reasonable to assume he would have been favorite to win? Now bearing this in mind, does it make Gareth's (already perfectly clear) post any clearer?

If Alonso had been on P2 with a decent strategy for P2 like Hamilton had in 2007 I still think the Spaniard would have won it.