Jump to content


Photo

Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
14493 replies to this topic

#2551 AlanWake

AlanWake
  • Member

  • 1,610 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 15:13

The R25 was a rocketship, that was the Renault dream team era with Dino Toso, Mark Smith & co, many of whom were quickly poached by the other teams because the car was so good. I remember Button saying in the first winter test how incredibly fast that car was in the corners. The R26 was its heir, still a fantastic car.


A rocketship only in the first 4 races. Since Imola, Mclaren was the fastest car on the grid and had more resources to develope its car than Renault. It is a fact.

Can you imagine if the MP4-20 had been reliable? Kimi would have been as dominant as Schumi was in 2002/2004 :p

Edited by AlanWake, 13 July 2010 - 15:15.


Advertisement

#2552 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:07

A rocketship only in the first 4 races. Since Imola, Mclaren was the fastest car on the grid and had more resources to develope its car than Renault. It is a fact.

Can you imagine if the MP4-20 had been reliable? Kimi would have been as dominant as Schumi was in 2002/2004 :p


OK well he drove two good seasons and was the youngest wdc at the time, youngest 2x wdc. Respect to him.

Disaster in 2007. Out of contention in 08 & 09.

Now we have more evidence coming in that we must add to that pile, that will shape how we look at it. Same tyres now, no 'atmosphere' problems in his team... what have we got?

#2553 AlanWake

AlanWake
  • Member

  • 1,610 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:31

OK well he drove two good seasons and was the youngest wdc at the time, youngest 2x wdc. Respect to him.

Disaster in 2007. Out of contention in 08 & 09.

Now we have more evidence coming in that we must add to that pile, that will shape how we look at it. Same tyres now, no 'atmosphere' problems in his team... what have we got?


In terms of results, 2007 was a VERY good year for Fernando. He lost the WDC by 2 points...
The only disaster was how Mclaren managed that year :wave:

#2554 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,018 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:33

In terms of results, 2007 was a VERY good year for Fernando. He lost the WDC by 2 points...
The only disaster was how Mclaren managed that year :wave:


Yep, had absolutely nothing to do with alonso...

Regardless of what mclaren did if alonso had handled everything better he just might be competing for his 5th WDC this year...in that context I'd say 2007 was somewhat less than a very good year for him.

#2555 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:36

In terms of results, 2007 was a VERY good year for Fernando. He lost the WDC by 2 points...
The only disaster was how Mclaren managed that year :wave:


Webber's showing how they can drive even when there are problems in the team...

#2556 AlanWake

AlanWake
  • Member

  • 1,610 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:50

Webber's showing how they can drive even when there are problems in the team...


Agreed, but he is lucky that Vettel is not as talented as Hamilton was and is :)

#2557 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:55

Agreed, but he is lucky that Vettel is not as talented as Hamilton was and is :)


Well I have to say conversely Fernando didn't drive into people like Webbo does. Though maybe some angst improves Mark's concentration :lol: .

#2558 AlanWake

AlanWake
  • Member

  • 1,610 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 17:04

Yep, had absolutely nothing to do with alonso...

Regardless of what mclaren did if alonso had handled everything better he just might be competing for his 5th WDC this year...in that context I'd say 2007 was somewhat less than a very good year for him.


We will never know, but I agree with you that Alonso should have managed better the situation, if he had kept his cool in Hungary where Hamilton disobeyed Mclaren orders, Alonso would have been the 2007 WDC. But I really doubt that he would have stayed at Mclaren even winning the title. There was a great tension in Mclaren with two number 1 drivers.

#2559 Cozzie

Cozzie
  • Member

  • 42 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 July 2010 - 20:59

I'm a ferrari/f1 fan of over 20 years and an extremely infrequent poster. I was saddended my Kimis (manner of) departure and Alonso's subsequent arrival.
Moreover since the start of the year I'm finding that my affection Ferrari has almost disappeared thanks mainly to Alonso. His posturing, bitching and downright incompetence mixed with his poisonous tendency to politicise any situation that disadvantages him is disgraceful. I found myself cheering his demise last Sunday afternoon and hope he doesnt win another race again this year. Ferrari needs non latin drivers, it needs an underdog who pushes like crazy - racers a la Villeneuve, Mansell, Alesi and Raikonnen.
Alonso hire was always politically driven and has turned out not only to be a blunder on the track but also a PR disaster off it..
Massa, sadly is past his best and should now bow out with dignity, give the French F2 rookie a chance alongside Alonso next year to show him up even more.

Advertisement

#2560 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,732 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:18

In terms of results, 2007 was a VERY good year for Fernando. He lost the WDC by 2 points...
The only disaster was how Mclaren managed that year :wave:

Actually he lost the WDC by 1 point. History has been re-written by Hamilton fans.

Hamilton and Alonso both had 109 in 2007. Hamilton fans would lead you to believe he crushed Alonso in 2007 when they scored the same points. If it wasn't for Hamilton breaking team orders that it was Alonso's turn to pit last in Qualifying ending up with Alonso giving his payback and getting his demotion to 6th on the grid. The points he lost in that race gave the WDC to KR.

That stunt and Melbourne is why I have no respect for Hamilton.

#2561 Yakari

Yakari
  • Member

  • 106 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:21

Actually he lost the WDC by 1 point. History has been re-written by Hamilton fans.

Hamilton and Alonso both had 109 in 2007. Hamilton fans would lead you to believe he crushed Alonso in 2007 when they scored the same points. If it wasn't for Hamilton breaking team orders that it was Alonso's turn to pit last in Qualifying ending up with Alonso giving his payback and getting his demotion to 6th on the grid. The points he lost in that race gave the WDC to KR.

That stunt and Melbourne is why I have no respect for Hamilton.

You could also say that binning it in Japan - an event that was totally his fault - lost him the points that gave Kimi the WDC.

#2562 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,732 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:24

You could also say that binning it in Japan - an event that was totally his fault - lost him the points that gave Kimi the WDC.

I am a reasonable man. You make a valid point. :up:

#2563 Yakari

Yakari
  • Member

  • 106 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:26

I am a reasonable man. You make a valid point. :up:

:up: As am I (sometimes :rotfl: )

#2564 buffbuff

buffbuff
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:27

No way. Alonso beat Schumi at his best. I really doubt Hamilton could have done the same.


Alonso's driving in 2007 was way better than his driving now. We saw that Hamilton at least matched Alonso in 2007 when Alonso was driving near his peak, so I can't see how you can say that Hamilton could not have beaten Schumi at his best if Alonso did, and with Hamilton driving way better now than he did in 2007.

Until last year I would have said that Alonso was the most complete driver in F1, but with his performance this year (and Hamilton's improvement) I just don't think that anymore.

#2565 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:39

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)



#2566 buffbuff

buffbuff
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:49

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)


Well I didn't like Alonso after what he did in 2007, but I still thought he was the best driver on the grid, until this year (he's made too many mistakes or not been focused enough which he never did before). Yes there are lots of posters who blatantly ignore drivers skill because they don't like them, but there are some who try and put forward views based on some form of logic.

Don't give up the board just yet.

#2567 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:52

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)


I am a McLaren fan (not a Hamilton fan) and I don't like him becuase of 2007 (and deep down you know what happened)

P.s. You forgot the Trulli fans :cool:

Edited by Dunder, 13 July 2010 - 21:53.


#2568 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,452 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:53

:up: As am I (sometimes :rotfl: )


Love the syntax...

#2569 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,452 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 13 July 2010 - 21:54

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)



And for my next textbook example of transferred paranoia.....

#2570 Hole

Hole
  • Member

  • 2,232 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 13 July 2010 - 22:59

The thing with Alonso this year is:


- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: That was a good one. :finger: :finger:

I'm agreed about the other you said. In general terms it's like that unfortunately.

Edited by AdamKOR, 13 July 2010 - 23:00.


#2571 bigpond

bigpond
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 23:08

The R25 was a rocketship, that was the Renault dream team era with Dino Toso, Mark Smith & co, many of whom were quickly poached by the other teams because the car was so good. I remember Button saying in the first winter test how incredibly fast that car was in the corners. The R26 was its heir, still a fantastic car.



And how many other rocket ships have those guys designed after they were poached? lol. The car was not even close to a match for Mclaren in speed from the 4th race. Kimi was outqualifying Alonso with 5-10 more laps fuel, it wasn't even a contest. The Mclaren was just as dominant as the 2010 Redbull.

#2572 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,018 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 13 July 2010 - 23:24

Actually he lost the WDC by 1 point. History has been re-written by Hamilton fans.


Depends how it's meant, pretty sure he'd have needed 2 more points to win unless he grabbed one of kimi's victories.

Hamilton and Alonso both had 109 in 2007. Hamilton fans would lead you to believe he crushed Alonso in 2007 when they scored the same points. If it wasn't for Hamilton breaking team orders that it was Alonso's turn to pit last in Qualifying ending up with Alonso giving his payback and getting his demotion to 6th on the grid. The points he lost in that race gave the WDC to KR.

That stunt and Melbourne is why I have no respect for Hamilton.


Aside from what others have said re: alonso's own mistakes in 2007 I don't see how hamilton carries all the blame and alonso none for what happened in Hungary. Whatever your view on what hamilton did, alonso wasn't forced to over react as he did. Plus you have no clue how the race or the subsequent races would have unfolded if the penalty hadn't been incurred.

Edited by robefc, 13 July 2010 - 23:27.


#2573 Brandz07

Brandz07
  • Member

  • 3,160 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 July 2010 - 23:28

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)


i dont like him because of his frequent moaning and whining. it's like he believes the world is against him, give over alonso, you've done stuff wrong, jesus!

and also because of his move against hamilton in hungary 2007 :)

but yeah, most of those reasons are right, and theres definately a lot of reasons to not like him.

Edited by Brandz07, 13 July 2010 - 23:29.


#2574 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,732 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 July 2010 - 00:48

Depends how it's meant, pretty sure he'd have needed 2 more points to win unless he grabbed one of kimi's victories.



Aside from what others have said re: alonso's own mistakes in 2007 I don't see how hamilton carries all the blame and alonso none for what happened in Hungary. Whatever your view on what hamilton did, alonso wasn't forced to over react as he did. Plus you have no clue how the race or the subsequent races would have unfolded if the penalty hadn't been incurred.

It's not just my view. You deny he did that? Think before you type because Ron Dennis and McLaren admitted Hamilton broke team orders.

#2575 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 14 July 2010 - 00:57

It's not just my view. You deny he did that? Think before you type because Ron Dennis and McLaren admitted Hamilton broke team orders.


What Hamilton did in Hungary was inexcusable - stealing the prime slot in Q3

What Alonso did in Hungary was inexcusable - blocking the pit box to deny Hamilton his 2nd hot lap
What Alonso did in the aftermath of Hungary was inexcusable - essentially blackmailing the team

Given this, why (just as a matter of interest) do you have no respect for Hamilton, but maintain respect for Alonso?


#2576 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,018 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 14 July 2010 - 00:57

It's not just my view. You deny he did that? Think before you type because Ron Dennis and McLaren admitted Hamilton broke team orders.


You seem to have missed the rest of my post and therefore my entire point.

#2577 Mungo Fangio of the Year

Mungo Fangio of the Year
  • Member

  • 565 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:08

So, how is Fernando's WDC chase going? :rotfl:


#2578 Arska

Arska
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:39

And how many other rocket ships have those guys designed after they were poached? lol. The car was not even close to a match for Mclaren in speed from the 4th race. Kimi was outqualifying Alonso with 5-10 more laps fuel, it wasn't even a contest. The Mclaren was just as dominant as the 2010 Redbull.


And with regards to dominance, you are obviously referring to outright pace only, right? Because in order to be dominant, an F1 car has to be at least three things: the fastest over a lap, the one with the strongest engine and the most reliable. 2005 McLaren was the fastest one, possibly the best engine, but not even nearly with the best reliability.


#2579 Hole

Hole
  • Member

  • 2,232 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:42

So, how is Fernando's WDC chase going? :rotfl:


Meh, give him time. He has already 2 under his belt.

The excuses and whinning about 2005 and 2006 are just sour grapes.

Advertisement

#2580 moorsey

moorsey
  • Member

  • 633 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:52

What Hamilton did in Hungary was inexcusable - stealing the prime slot in Q3

What Alonso did in Hungary was inexcusable - blocking the pit box to deny Hamilton his 2nd hot lap
What Alonso did in the aftermath of Hungary was inexcusable - essentially blackmailing the team

Given this, why (just as a matter of interest) do you have no respect for Hamilton, but maintain respect for Alonso?


Good post and I can't wait to see the reply.

#2581 meat

meat
  • Member

  • 691 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:56

The thing with Alonso this year is:

- Schumacher fans don't like him because he beat him in 2006
- Raikkonen fans don't like him because he took his seat in Ferrari
- Massa fans don't like him because he is his team mate
- Hamilton fans don't like him because of 2007 (and deep down they know what happened :) )
- I don't think Vettel has any fans left so I won't comment on them

And this BB reflects that :)



Or could it be that he is driving like an amateur this year...


#2582 AlanWake

AlanWake
  • Member

  • 1,610 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:13

Or could it be that he is driving like an amateur this year...


He has made mistakes that he shouln't but he has been one of the most unluckiest drivers on the grid. I think you're a Kimi Fan, so you should see how unlucky Alonso has been lately.

#2583 Wingnut

Wingnut
  • Member

  • 710 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:20

He has made mistakes that he shouln't but he has been one of the most unluckiest drivers on the grid. I think you're a Kimi Fan, so you should see how unlucky Alonso has been lately.


Well lets just hope that Ferrari don't take the same view they did on 'unlucky' Kimi then.

#2584 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,897 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:16

Well lets just hope that Ferrari don't take the same view they did on 'unlucky' Kimi then.


"Unlucky" Kimi didn't come with a season budget. ;)

As long as the $antander coin is rolling ...

#2585 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:21

Serious question for Ferrari fans:

Does the team have FA under sufficient control? I'm not bashing - FA is one of my favourite drivers and probably my favourite personality on the Grid.

Reasons being - 1) he seems to have demotivated FM with mindgames. I know he has thrashed him on the track and that may be a reason for FM being off his game as he is very much a "confidence" driver but too many little stories seep about about FA's little niggles and digs to make me wonder if the team should not tell him to be a bit more supportive of FM ... or at least not to give him such a hard time since FM is not a particularly strong character.

2) When the red mist comes down on track there seems to be no control on the pitwall. There have been lots of little errors from pushing too hard which individually are all forgiveable ...but serious points are being lost now. The latest display of a lack of calmness in Valencia was backed up by the team when in fact they should have been telling FA to calm down (which eventually happened ... but probably at least 8 hours too late). Now comes Silverstone where FA is not told to give back the place when it is obvious from looking at TV pictures that he should have done so right away. Why did that happen? would the same have happened with say FM or less combative person? My feeling is: no Stella and Domi are scared to tell FA what to do.Then when the penny finally drops he tells his engineer not to speak to him for the rest of the race. Is that acceptable (even if, as KR found out, Stella on the radio can be very annoying)?

I dont think the day to day managers at Ferrari can control FA and they seem to dance to his tune rather than the other way round. Whitmarsh has only narrowly avoided being in the same position with LH at Macca (ie the driver overshadowing the other members of the team) and seeing how the apparent lack of control of FA seems to be playing out at Ferrari, I now have a bit more sympathy with Whitmarsh's efforts at the start of the season to reign in his own star driver. A similar job may need to be done at Ferrari.

#2586 Redstorm

Redstorm
  • Member

  • 343 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:29

Serious question for Ferrari fans:

Does the team have FA under sufficient control? I'm not bashing - FA is one of my favourite drivers and probably my favourite personality on the Grid.

Reasons being - 1) he seems to have demotivated FM with mindgames. I know he has thrashed him on the track and that may be a reason for FM being off his game as he is very much a "confidence" driver but too many little stories seep about about FA's little niggles and digs to make me wonder if the team should not tell him to be a bit more supportive of FM ... or at least not to give him such a hard time since FM is not a particularly strong character.

2) When the red mist comes down on track there seems to be no control on the pitwall. There have been lots of little errors from pushing too hard which individually are all forgiveable ...but serious points are being lost now. The latest display of a lack of calmness in Valencia was backed up by the team when in fact they should have been telling FA to calm down (which eventually happened ... but probably at least 8 hours too late). Now comes Silverstone where FA is not told to give back the place when it is obvious from looking at TV pictures that he should have done so right away. Why did that happen? would the same have happened with say FM or less combative person? My feeling is: no Stella and Domi are scared to tell FA what to do.Then when the penny finally drops he tells his engineer not to speak to him for the rest of the race. Is that acceptable (even if, as KR found out, Stella on the radio can be very annoying)?

I dont think the day to day managers at Ferrari can control FA and they seem to dance to his tune rather than the other way round. Whitmarsh has only narrowly avoided being in the same position with LH at Macca (ie the driver overshadowing the other members of the team) and seeing how the apparent lack of control of FA seems to be playing out at Ferrari, I now have a bit more sympathy with Whitmarsh's efforts at the start of the season to reign in his own star driver. A similar job may need to be done at Ferrari.


Nothing says Massa was not given the submissive role in his new contract, and Stephano is NOT the right guy for the pit wall. I dont know who should take it, but its not him. Yes, FA is not being controlled from the pit wall when need be. And he is my guy too so not bashing, just my two cents........

#2587 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,220 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:32

Serious question for Ferrari fans:

Does the team have FA under sufficient control? I'm not bashing - FA is one of my favourite drivers and probably my favourite personality on the Grid.

Reasons being - 1) he seems to have demotivated FM with mindgames. I know he has thrashed him on the track and that may be a reason for FM being off his game as he is very much a "confidence" driver but too many little stories seep about about FA's little niggles and digs to make me wonder if the team should not tell him to be a bit more supportive of FM ... or at least not to give him such a hard time since FM is not a particularly strong character.

2) When the red mist comes down on track there seems to be no control on the pitwall. There have been lots of little errors from pushing too hard which individually are all forgiveable ...but serious points are being lost now. The latest display of a lack of calmness in Valencia was backed up by the team when in fact they should have been telling FA to calm down (which eventually happened ... but probably at least 8 hours too late). Now comes Silverstone where FA is not told to give back the place when it is obvious from looking at TV pictures that he should have done so right away. Why did that happen? would the same have happened with say FM or less combative person? My feeling is: no Stella and Domi are scared to tell FA what to do.Then when the penny finally drops he tells his engineer not to speak to him for the rest of the race. Is that acceptable (even if, as KR found out, Stella on the radio can be very annoying)?

I dont think the day to day managers at Ferrari can control FA and they seem to dance to his tune rather than the other way round. Whitmarsh has only narrowly avoided being in the same position with LH at Macca (ie the driver overshadowing the other members of the team) and seeing how the apparent lack of control of FA seems to be playing out at Ferrari, I now have a bit more sympathy with Whitmarsh's efforts at the start of the season to reign in his own star driver. A similar job may need to be done at Ferrari.


1) I don't see any specific mindgames going on, other than FA simply being faster and trying to put Massa into his place everytime they meet on track. Just as it should be, Massa is exactly the same but comes out 2nd best right now.

2) They simply have to start winning, then those "issues" will disappear. If they don't win, they're in trouble anyway, regardless of who's more dominant in the team.

#2588 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,890 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:41

Nothing says Massa was not given the submissive role in his new contract, and Stephano is NOT the right guy for the pit wall. I dont know who should take it, but its not him. Yes, FA is not being controlled from the pit wall when need be. And he is my guy too so not bashing, just my two cents........

Yeah, I get what you saying, but if your race engineer is making silly mistakes (and I'm not excusing Alonso's mistakes) at a time when you need all the points you can get... You'd be peeved too. All it takes is a few wins and all these issues will disappear. On a side note, after Silverstone, he seems to have rallied the team right behind him, which can only be a good thing going forward. Sometimes hardships can knit a team together. I honestly hope this is the case here.

#2589 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,890 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:45

2) They simply have to start winning, then those "issues" will disappear. If they don't win, they're in trouble anyway, regardless of who's more dominant in the team.

Oops, you beat me to it.

#2590 Bonaventura

Bonaventura
  • Member

  • 7,698 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:48

Serious question for Ferrari fans:

Does the team have FA under sufficient control? I'm not bashing - FA is one of my favourite drivers and probably my favourite personality on the Grid.

Reasons being - 1) he seems to have demotivated FM with mindgames. I know he has thrashed him on the track and that may be a reason for FM being off his game as he is very much a "confidence" driver but too many little stories seep about about FA's little niggles and digs to make me wonder if the team should not tell him to be a bit more supportive of FM ... or at least not to give him such a hard time since FM is not a particularly strong character.

2) When the red mist comes down on track there seems to be no control on the pitwall. There have been lots of little errors from pushing too hard which individually are all forgiveable ...but serious points are being lost now. The latest display of a lack of calmness in Valencia was backed up by the team when in fact they should have been telling FA to calm down (which eventually happened ... but probably at least 8 hours too late). Now comes Silverstone where FA is not told to give back the place when it is obvious from looking at TV pictures that he should have done so right away. Why did that happen? would the same have happened with say FM or less combative person? My feeling is: no Stella and Domi are scared to tell FA what to do.Then when the penny finally drops he tells his engineer not to speak to him for the rest of the race. Is that acceptable (even if, as KR found out, Stella on the radio can be very annoying)?

I dont think the day to day managers at Ferrari can control FA and they seem to dance to his tune rather than the other way round. Whitmarsh has only narrowly avoided being in the same position with LH at Macca (ie the driver overshadowing the other members of the team) and seeing how the apparent lack of control of FA seems to be playing out at Ferrari, I now have a bit more sympathy with Whitmarsh's efforts at the start of the season to reign in his own star driver. A similar job may need to be done at Ferrari.

Sorry for OT in the Alonso Thread

But to this piont of view, I can't agree
You can't compare this situations
every time Hamilton has critizised this team publicly he was in the right place
and with this"reign" down their star driver McLaren has cost itself some very precious points at the races and at the championship(s)

But we should continue this discussion not here

Edited by Bonaventura, 14 July 2010 - 09:49.


#2591 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:51

He has made mistakes that he shouln't but he has been one of the most unluckiest drivers on the grid. I think you're a Kimi Fan, so you should see how unlucky Alonso has been lately.


I disagree about this. Every top team driver except probably Button has had their fair share of bad luck this season. I don't think that Vettel was any luckier than Alonso, and I don't think that Webber and Hamilton had much more luck.

#2592 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,890 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:10

I disagree about this. Every top team driver except probably Button has had their fair share of bad luck this season. I don't think that Vettel was any luckier than Alonso, and I don't think that Webber and Hamilton had much more luck.

You have to be kidding about Hamilton right... Look at the last 2 races for example, His big lead over Alonso has come from just these two races, I mean he gained 36 points on him due to various reasons. Now I am not bashing the Hamster, but he has had his bread buttered on both sides all season. Stewards decisions have all gone his way, and I mean all. Also he has been picking up the scraps from others mistakes.

I think he should have been punished for weaving, racing Vettel in the pitlane, and his pole lap in Canada should have been disallowed. The only badluck he has had was the incident with Webber and his rim failure.

I have to admire him though, because he has put himself in a position to score heavily in almost every race by not making mistakes should the Red Bull's trip over each other or retire due to mechanical failures. The only race I could say he won on merit was in Canada, but even then I think Alonso gifted him that race.

All in all, I have to agree with him, Mclaren are over delivering.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 14 July 2010 - 10:33.


#2593 Arion

Arion
  • Member

  • 2,353 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:31

I dont think the day to day managers at Ferrari can control FA and they seem to dance to his tune rather than the other way round. Whitmarsh has only narrowly avoided being in the same position with LH at Macca (ie the driver overshadowing the other members of the team) and seeing how the apparent lack of control of FA seems to be playing out at Ferrari, I now have a bit more sympathy with Whitmarsh's efforts at the start of the season to reign in his own star driver. A similar job may need to be done at Ferrari.


You can't do what Whitmarsh did with Lewis to Alonso, his paranoia is full on, any hint of favouritism towards the other driver will cause a downward spiral. It's very delicate task, Alonso needs to feel the team is 100% on his side, it'd mean you have to support some of his nonsensical views and actions. Maybe when the relationship is more established, you can grab him by the collar and tell him to shut up and let the team to deal with the FIA. But if you force your authority on him at this stage, you might upset him.

Edited by Arion, 14 July 2010 - 10:39.


#2594 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:52

You have to be kidding about Hamilton right... Look at the last 2 races for example, His big lead over Alonso has come from just these two races, I mean he gained 36 points on him due to various reasons. Now I am not bashing the Hamster, but he has had his bread buttered on both sides all season. Stewards decisions have all gone his way, and I mean all. Also he has been picking up the scraps from others mistakes.

I think he should have been punished for weaving, racing Vettel in the pitlane, and his pole lap in Canada should have been disallowed. The only badluck he has had was the incident with Webber and his rim failure.

I have to admire him though, because he has put himself in a position to score heavily in almost every race by not making mistakes should the Red Bull's trip over each other or retire due to mechanical failures. The only race I could say he won on merit was in Canada, but even then I think Alonso gifted him that race.

All in all, I have to agree with him, Mclaren are over delivering.


Like I said, I don't think that Alonso was as lucky as Hamilton, but I don't think that there is too much difference in luck between those two.

If you look at the last two races Hamilton was very lucky. But there were quite a few races where he was far from lucky (Australia, Malaysia, Barcelona). On the other hand Alonso was also quite lucky on few occasions, so its not all white&black. Plus, very important thing is this - most Alonso 'bad luck' came from his underperforming in first place. For example:

Canada - I don't see how are his losing two places because of backmarkers seen as bad luck. It can only be seen as Hamilton/Button doing better job.
Valencia - there was nothing between Ferrari and McLaren cars there, maybe even Ferrari were faster, but Lewis managed to beat Alonso in quali and in turn that resulted in Alonso being stuck behind SC (remember that Alonso had better race-pace after Lewis had his FW problem, so in turn - if Alonso was in front he would surely be on Vettels tail thus escaping his SC bad luck).
Silverstone - there was nothing unlucky there, he had a bad start and can only blame himself for putting himself in bad position, and also not returning position to Kubica straight away (he didn't even had to ask his pit-wall, he's a smart guy).

As you can see, it was his errors that lead to 'bad luck'.

About stewards, you think Hamilton should have been punished for weaving, racing Vettel in pitlane and had pole lap disallowed. About pole lap disallowed he was fined as rules stated, so I don't see why should that lap be disallowed. Racing in pitlane is something that happens very often and more often than not drivers go unpunished so I also don't know what's all the fuss about it. Weaving to break the tow is something you may have a point, but also bear mind that rules are not clearly defined in that sense and are opened to interpretation.

All in all, Hamilton was more lucky with stewards, I agree with that. But with general track events I don't think Alonso was too unlucky.

#2595 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:39

1) he seems to have demotivated FM with mindgames.


Nothing says Massa was not given the submissive role in his new contract,


Keep it up :up: :lol:

#2596 Massacrator

Massacrator
  • Member

  • 1,361 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:49

FA has been the unluckiest this season only behind PMdlR, who is the unluckiest by far.

#2597 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,890 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:09

Canada - I don't see how are his losing two places because of backmarkers seen as bad luck. It can only be seen as Hamilton/Button doing better job.


Alonso made mistakes in Canada, but he was unlucky with traffic when putting in the hotlaps while Hamilton was in the box. He would definitely have rejoined ahead of Hamilton was it not for that. I watched the incident and there was absolutely nothing he could have done to avoid the back marker without compromising his lap.

Valencia - there was nothing between Ferrari and McLaren cars there, maybe even Ferrari were faster, but Lewis managed to beat Alonso in quali and in turn that resulted in Alonso being stuck behind SC (remember that Alonso had better race-pace after Lewis had his FW problem, so in turn - if Alonso was in front he would surely be on Vettels tail thus escaping his SC bad luck).

You can't put that on Alonso, qualifying has nothing to do with the race and above all he obeyed the rules and came off worse for it. Hamilton on the other hand disobeyed the rules and was very lucky with regards to the time it took to review the incident as well as Kobayashi holding up the entire field

Silverstone - there was nothing unlucky there, he had a bad start and can only blame himself for putting himself in bad position, and also not returning position to Kubica straight away (he didn't even had to ask his pit-wall, he's a smart guy).

Safety car timing was very unlucky, he should have given the place back yes, but when you racing things aren't as clear cut as just giving the position back. The team should have advised him. His bad start was due to a faulty clutch so I can't see why that has to be classified as a mistake.

As you can see, it was his errors that lead to 'bad luck'.

About stewards, you think Hamilton should have been punished for weaving, racing Vettel in pitlane and had pole lap disallowed. About pole lap disallowed he was fined as rules stated, so I don't see why should that lap be disallowed. Racing in pitlane is something that happens very often and more often than not drivers go unpunished so I also don't know what's all the fuss about it. Weaving to break the tow is something you may have a point, but also bear mind that rules are not clearly defined in that sense and are opened to interpretation.

Pole lap - If somebody else does it now they will be heavily punished. An unfare advantage was gained and it should have been disallowed. A fine just doesn't cut it, and it was mickey mouse amount as well.
Pit lane - Racing in the pit lane is very dangerous. He only got a reprimand, which is all good and well if other drivers are extended the same curtesy. Also the rules are as clear as daylight with regard to this.
Weaving - That was just plain down uncalled for - definately should have been sanctioned, I can't see what is open to interpretation, it was deliberate bad racing if you ask me.

All in all, Hamilton was more lucky with stewards, I agree with that. But with general track events I don't think Alonso was too unlucky.

Hamilton Lucky on all counts. Although Alonso was lucky in several of the earlier races as well.



#2598 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 13:46

Alonso made mistakes in Canada, but he was unlucky with traffic when putting in the hotlaps while Hamilton was in the box. He would definitely have rejoined ahead of Hamilton was it not for that. I watched the incident and there was absolutely nothing he could have done to avoid the back marker without compromising his lap.

You can't put that on Alonso, qualifying has nothing to do with the race and above all he obeyed the rules and came off worse for it. Hamilton on the other hand disobeyed the rules and was very lucky with regards to the time it took to review the incident as well as Kobayashi holding up the entire field

Safety car timing was very unlucky, he should have given the place back yes, but when you racing things aren't as clear cut as just giving the position back. The team should have advised him. His bad start was due to a faulty clutch so I can't see why that has to be classified as a mistake.


Pole lap - If somebody else does it now they will be heavily punished. An unfare advantage was gained and it should have been disallowed. A fine just doesn't cut it, and it was mickey mouse amount as well.
Pit lane - Racing in the pit lane is very dangerous. He only got a reprimand, which is all good and well if other drivers are extended the same curtesy. Also the rules are as clear as daylight with regard to this.
Weaving - That was just plain down uncalled for - definately should have been sanctioned, I can't see what is open to interpretation, it was deliberate bad racing if you ask me.


Hamilton Lucky on all counts. Although Alonso was lucky in several of the earlier races as well.


We obviously have different views on those stewarding situations. About luck...

Many people say that Kimi Raikkonen was unlucky in 2005. I'm not one of those. Neither is Alonso. What Alonso understands is that Kimi simply had a worse car in 2005. That car had inherent reliability issues, so when it broke down it wasn't at all by luck altough it looked like it is.

Why am I bringing this? What I'm trying to say is that sometimes 'bad luck' is simply a consequence of job done in a sloppy fashion. When Kimi's engine broke in one race 2005. and journalist asked Alonso wheter he feels lucky about it - Alonso said that maybe you can view it other way - if it haven't broke down in quali it would go in race so that Kimi was in a way lucky about it. And I agree with Alonso there.

If you apply these Alonso thoughts onto current situation Alonso is in you get exactly what I spoke about. Most of Alonso 'bad luck' is because he didn't deliver his best.

#2599 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,274 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 14 July 2010 - 17:34

Keep it up :up: :lol:


http://www.darrenhea...g/stuck-reverse

Have a look at the last few paragraphs. This is the example that comes quickest to hand. My view is not based on what I would like to see but on reports from the paddock that I come accross.

Advertisement

#2600 Grenada

Grenada
  • Member

  • 3,066 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 14 July 2010 - 17:38

http://www.darrenhea...g/stuck-reverse

Have a look at the last few paragraphs. This is the example that comes quickest to hand. My view is not based on what I would like to see but on reports from the paddock that I come accross.



Very interesting - click on the pictures of Alonso and Massa in this article and they illustrate the point perfectly.