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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#3251 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:28

Alonso was faster than Massa also, He proved in Qualy and he proved in the race. He was screwed up by Vettel at start coz he would have been in front of Massa as he fully deserved . Both were team orders...

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.

Improving the result for the team in the race has long been accepted as ok (see Canada 08 - BMW, as an example).

Where you are simply switching drivers, this has to be justified by the WDC position. Personally, I see this justification for Ferrari but, with Felipe not mathematically out of the WDC by any stretch, this is pushing that justification to an extreme.

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#3252 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:29

the word order implies that massa had no option, but he had!
he was informed and he decided to work for the better of the team :up:

If you interpret the rule that way then it ceases to have meaning, as drivers always have a choice. An interpretation that makes a rule devoid of meaning is obviously not the correct one.

#3253 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:29

Well, let's say I've seen more convincing proof than today ;) (qualifying is of course completely irrellevant)

Team orders both mate... you cannot deny this... Same offense...

#3254 mkay

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

the word order implies that massa had no option, but he had!
he was informed and he decided to work for the better of the team :up:


That's another way of seeing it, which may be brought up by Ferrari if they have to show up at WMSC's next hearing.

#3255 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

But they are illegal are they not?

and the rule cant be supervised, as there are to many possibilities for hidden orders
the rule is ridicoulous especially in situations as today

#3256 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

But they are illegal are they not? Just as overtaking a safety car is illegal and frankly you went ape shit about that misdemeanour, ranting on about the injustice of it all and how Hamilton did it on purpose and the FIA was slow in reacting etc... etc..

Now it's Alonso that has broken a rule, It's necessary.... Have you ever heard the word objectivity...? :lol:

Nurburgring 2008. You forgot? It appears yes. Big glasses you have mate...

#3257 AlainProstX

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

Well I was in 2008 on this forum also and after the Nurburgring "Kova, Lewis is faster than you" I remember the McLaren fans saying that it was justify to do that...bringing all excuses here like: Hamilton was faster(so was Alonso), Hamilton was faster all season(so was Alonso), Kova has only mathematical chances(so has Massa)... Now they suddenly changed their mind...

:up: @mkay, but is pointless to discuss with some fanboys...


You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.

#3258 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.

Improving the result for the team in the race has long been accepted as ok (see Canada 08 - BMW, as an example).

Where you are simply switching drivers, this has to be justified by the WDC position. Personally, I see this justification for Ferrari but, with Felipe not mathematically out of the WDC by any stretch, this is pushing that justification to an extreme.

:up:

#3259 Nitropower

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:31

The thing here is not if it was team orders today. Of course they were.

The thing is other teams are giving team orders and have in previous seasons but they were not punished.

Imagine what would've happened if the FIA said Kimi Raikkonen had overtaken Massa due to team orders in Brazil 2007? What about Heikki letting Hamilton pass him in Nurburgring 2008?

What is a shame here is team orders are punished only if they are less hidden. Anyone saying that the "save fuel" orders do not mean "ok you two won't overtake each other, your mate won't pass you" or "press the overtaking button" does not mean anything at all... is an hypocrit.

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#3260 mkay

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:32

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.

Improving the result for the team in the race has long been accepted as ok (see Canada 08 - BMW, as an example).

Where you are simply switching drivers, this has to be justified by the WDC position. Personally, I see this justification for Ferrari but, with Felipe not mathematically out of the WDC by any stretch, this is pushing that justification to an extreme.


Can they just point out that Alonso was actually faster than Massa in the race and throughout the season, which gave him the right to be in front?

#3261 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:32

If you interpret the rule that way then it ceases to have meaning, as drivers always have a choice. An interpretation that makes a rule devoid of meaning is obviously not the correct one.

if they say let alonso pass, then this is an order
but if you inform your driver with alonso is faster, the conclusion what to do is down to the driver

#3262 notguilty56

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:33

There are always team orders. Same kind of order is to let your teammate go by than not pushing him when your team asks you so. It changes the race results. There are lots of examples simply this season. The counter-example is Turkey and the Red Bulls.
The main difference today is that a driver (and his engineer) wanted the people to know it (can you remember Monaco 2007?) This is called to kick up a row, a scandal. And anyone who is scandalized is half the way between cynism and hipocresy.
And the FIA is acting because there has been an scandal, not because there has been a sport disrepute. Again the media.

#3263 Nitropower

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:33

You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.

+1

#3264 lexmeister2

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:34

There's a big difference between teams telling one driver to let another past when they're on different strategies (different fuel loads and such in the past) and what happened today. Please let's not confuse the two.


And they really should have just delayed Massa in the pitstop or something, we still would have come to the same conclusion but it would have been far less obvious and there would also have been a lot less uproar about it.

#3265 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:34

Can they just point out that Alonso was actually faster than Massa in the race and throughout the season, which gave him the right to be in front?

When has being quicker in clear air ever given a driver the right to be in front?

if they say let alonso pass, then this is an order
but if you inform your driver with alonso is faster, the conclusion what to do is down to the driver

If you say before the race "if I say 'Alonso is faster than you' that means 'let Alonso pass'" and then they say this in the race, then it is an order.

#3266 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:35

You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.

Yes I know, sour grasps by the english media and Hamilton fans... Well... I can quite understand them.

#3267 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:35

and the rule cant be supervised, as there are to many possibilities for hidden orders
the rule is ridicoulous especially in situations as today


It's still a rule whether you agree or disagree. I am not debating whether anyone previously has broken it or not because it's pretty obvious they have, however no one has made it this obvious since 2002.

My point is Mclaren fans are being accused of failing to be objective and yet Alonso fans feel quite happy to put the boot in when it's Hamilton breaking the rules.

Edited by skid solo, 25 July 2010 - 19:36.


#3268 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:36

If you say before the race "if I say 'Alonso is faster than you' that means 'let Alonso pass'" and then they say this in the race, then it is an order.

and how you wanna prove it?
but if they decide before race such things, nothings should be said to massa!

this rule is ridiculous (the way it is now)!

#3269 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:37

My point is Mclaren fans are being accused of failing to be objective and yet Alonso fans feel quite happy to put the boot in when it's Hamilton breaking the rules.

alonso didnt brake a rule!
if any one, then the team!

#3270 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:38

and how you wanna prove it?

The same way they proved Schumacher parked it at Rascasse: there is no other logical explanation and those given by the people involved do not make sense.

Do you think Schumacher's Rascasse parking was "proven" sufficiently to deserve a penalty?

#3271 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:38

When has being quicker in clear air ever given a driver the right to be in front?


If you say before the race "if I say 'Alonso is faster than you' that means 'let Alonso pass'" and then they say this in the race, then it is an order.

Nurburgring 2008. Same order same end... It is not normal of course, but it's Formula1...

#3272 robefc

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:38

You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.


Jut to be clear, you think it's because this result was bad for mclaren and hamilton fans that there's an outcry at the moment?

And you then use an example of when team orders denied a british guy the WDC as an example of when there wasn't an outcry? And another example which nearly denied the same guy?

Have you really thought this through?

#3273 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:39

Nurburgring 2008. You forgot? It appears yes. Big glasses you have mate...


Completely different as Gareth put it

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.


#3274 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:39

It's still a rule whether you agree or disagree. I am not debating whether anyone previously has broken it or not because it's pretty obvious they have, however no one has made it this obvious since 2002.

My point is Mclaren fans are being accused of failing to be objective and yet Alonso fans feel quite happy to put the boot in when it's Hamilton breaking the rules.

Nurburgring 2008. "Heikki, Lewis is faster than you" ? Not obvious to you??

#3275 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:39

Nurburgring 2008. Same order same end... It is not normal of course, but it's Formula1...

It was Hockenheim 2008. And I'll repeat what I said before in this thread:

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.

Improving the result for the team in the race has long been accepted as ok (see Canada 08 - BMW, as an example).

Where you are simply switching drivers, this has to be justified by the WDC position. Personally, I see this justification for Ferrari but, with Felipe not mathematically out of the WDC by any stretch, this is pushing that justification to an extreme.

#3276 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:39

Nurburgring 2008. "Heikki, Lewis is faster than you" ? Not obvious to you??


I refer you to my previous answer

#3277 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:40

Completely different as Gareth put it

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.


It makes your "team order" better? Don't think so...

#3278 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:40

The same way they proved Schumacher parked it at Rascasse: there is no other logical explanation and those given by the people involved do not make sense.

Do you think Schumacher's Rascasse parking was "proven" sufficiently to deserve a penalty?


schumacher rascasse parking is about telemetery etc.

this one is down to a decision of a driver, a member of the team, he is allowed to slow down if this helps the team!

#3279 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:43

It makes your "team order" better? Don't think so...

If you can't see the difference between a 5/6 becomming a 1/5 vs a 1/2 staying the same, then I can't help you.

McLaren's instruction was justified by the in race situation. Ferrari's was not. Ferrari have to look to the WDC position to try and justify their instruction. The two situations are different.

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#3280 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:43

I understand user if they are not satisfied with today.

i am not satisfied, too and alonso is not satisfied.

but team orders should not be forbidden, because they can decrease the chances of a team winning a championship!


#3281 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:45

It makes your "team order" better? Don't think so...


Yes because Hamilton was hugely faster than Heiki and once past disappeared into the distance, overtook 3 more cars and won the race. He was also fighting back from a bad pit decision under the safety car.

Today we watched two drivers switched position which held no benefit to the team. The only benefit was to Alonso.

#3282 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:45

If you can't see the difference between a 5/6 becomming a 1/5 vs a 1/2 staying the same, then I can't help you.

McLaren's instruction was justified by the in race situation. Ferrari's was not. Ferrari have to look to the WDC position to try and justify their instruction. The two situations are different.

instruction or order?

#3283 cardin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:45

You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.


Somebody already pointed this out you probably missed or couldn't understand it. McLaren didn't have the car to win it today and they knew it. From Hamilton's WDC perspective it was a good thing Alonso and not Vettel won it today. Do you understand that ?

#3284 lexmeister2

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:45

You know, its Alonso who won with teamorders.
And it raised Ferraris chances of winning the title.

That`s bad for our Mclaren and Hamilton supporters.

I already said it, no one cried over the teamorders in Interlagos 2007, Shanghai 2008 or Hockenheim 2008 that much.

It has alot to do with the Alonso-hate on this board and in England. Just look at the questions the british media asked Alonso after his race win. That`s embrassing to compare this with Singapore 2008 or say that this win was totaly undeserved, eventhough he was the fastest man in this weekend. Atleast Alonso showed some class and kept calm.

I don't get what it's got to do with the British, some people hate Alonso but that's just because of his character - like today he whines too much when he doesn't get his own way like a spoilt child. He cried at McLaren, and he was crying early on in the race today when for some unknown reason he expected Massa to just let him through.

To be completely honest, the races earlier in the season when he got stuck behind Massa, it would have made sense to tell him to let Alonso through as he was really being held up. Today though, Ferrari were getting maximum points anyway, and Massa was winning that race fair and square.

Please stop getting all defensive and attacking the British - everyone here should be able to agree that we understand why Ferrari did what they did, but also agree that it was against the rules and they shouldn't have tried to cover it up.

#3285 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:46

It was Hockenheim 2008. And I'll repeat what I said before in this thread:

One big distinguishing factor is McLaren's instruction enabled them to change a 5/6 to a 1/5. Ferrari's turned a 1/2 into a 1/2.

Improving the result for the team in the race has long been accepted as ok (see Canada 08 - BMW, as an example).

Where you are simply switching drivers, this has to be justified by the WDC position. Personally, I see this justification for Ferrari but, with Felipe not mathematically out of the WDC by any stretch, this is pushing that justification to an extreme.

Mate Team orders are team order no matter what. By the rule of the book must be punished. There is no difference between one of other. In Australia 2010 it will have been justify to let Alonso pass Massa and then to challenge Kubica, because it was so obviously that Massa can't pass Kubica????? Answer: NO Now It's clear. Alonso has more points than Massa and he is fastere than him by a big margin. So he is the only one with a real chance to win this WDC. You don't win WDC with lucky starts...

#3286 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:48

Mate Team orders are team order no matter what. By the rule of the book must be punished.


And what should the punishment be then? $100,000 fine, 25 sec penalty, exclusion, disqualification? You tell me..

#3287 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:49

Yes because Hamilton was hugely faster than Heiki and once past disappeared into the distance, overtook 3 more cars and won the race. He was also fighting back from a bad pit decision under the safety car.

Today we watched two drivers switched position which held no benefit to the team. The only benefit was to Alonso.


Today and in 2008 we saw two drivers switched position under a team order decision. By doing so Hamilton won the 2008 WDC. Is the same today. Massa is obviously slower as Kova was (proven by the 2 seasons) and only FA has a real chance to win the WDC, as was the case in 2008. End of story...

#3288 lexmeister2

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:50

In Australia 2010 it will have been justify to let Alonso pass Massa and then to challenge Kubica, because it was so obviously that Massa can't pass Kubica????? Answer: NO Now It's clear. Alonso has more points than Massa and he is fastere than him by a big margin. So he is the only one with a real chance to win this WDC. You don't win WDC with lucky starts...

I disagree, I think in that instance Ferrari should have told Massa to let Alonso through as he was severely holding him up. That race Alonso had a real chance of getting further up the order so should have been released. Today however, no. Ferrari were getting maximum points, and Alonso was not significantly quicker than Massa.


And to put this into perspective, in 2007 Raikkonen was pretty far back in the championship, and he came through and won the title fair and square with no cheating required. That is the mark of a true champion. And I'm amazed that Alonso would be satisfied with winning a championship like this.

#3289 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:52

I disagree, I think in that instance Ferrari should have told Massa to let Alonso through as he was severely holding him up. That race Alonso had a real chance of getting further up the order so should have been released. Today however, no. Ferrari were getting maximum points, and Alonso was not significantly quicker than Massa.


And to put this into perspective, in 2007 Raikkonen was pretty far back in the championship, and he came through and won the title fair and square with no cheating required. That is the mark of a true champion. And I'm amazed that Alonso would be satisfied with winning a championship like this.


Not entirely true he wasn't helped, Massa let him through in Brazil

#3290 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:52

And what should the punishment be then? $100,000 fine, 25 sec penalty, exclusion, disqualification? You tell me..

The rule is stupid. It was so often happened as you know and never been punished... I'm as I always was for removing this stupid rule. The rule is not applicable....

#3291 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:53

Mate Team orders are team order no matter what. By the rule of the book must be punished. There is no difference between one of other.

There is a difference, I have explained this difference to you.

The FIA's practice on enforcing the team order rule has been clear: if you can justify your team order, it is ok. The Monaco 07 investigation ruling makes it obvious this is the FIA's approach. The lack of any investigation for Canada 08 (where Heidfeld was ordered to allow Kubica to pass, because of their different strategies) also makes this clear. As does the lack of any issue with Hockenheim 08. Similar with

So the key questions as to whether the rule was broken are:

1. did the team instruct Felipe to pass

2. can it be justified (either by what happened in the race or the WDC position)

For 1, I think the answer is clear. For 2, I don't think it can be justified by what happened in the race. A 1/2 is the same as a 1/2. Can it be justified by the WDC position? I think so, but this is a more extreme justification than has been tried before.

#3292 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:53

The rule is stupid. It was so often happened as you know and never been punished... I'm as I always was for removing this stupid rule. The rule is not applicable....

:up:

#3293 skid solo

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:53

The rule is stupid. It was so often happened as you know and never been punished... I'm as I always was for removing this stupid rule. The rule is not applicable....


But while it is a rule what should the punishment be?

#3294 gaston_foix

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:54

I disagree, I think in that instance Ferrari should have told Massa to let Alonso through as he was severely holding him up. That race Alonso had a real chance of getting further up the order so should have been released. Today however, no. Ferrari were getting maximum points, and Alonso was not significantly quicker than Massa.


And to put this into perspective, in 2007 Raikkonen was pretty far back in the championship, and he came through and won the title fair and square with no cheating required. That is the mark of a true champion. And I'm amazed that Alonso would be satisfied with winning a championship like this.


On the contrary in Australia after 2 races it was not obvious if one driver is clearly faster than the other. Now we all know how it stands...

#3295 mstar

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:54

i see this as typical alonso moaning all the way through the race saying get massa out of the way. He did it at Mclaren when hammy was in front of him and he is doing it again. Alonso just cnt function on a equal basis in a team. Fair enough he has a WDC chance and massa does not but i cnt see how he gets so much satisfaction.

#3296 lexmeister2

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:54

Not entirely true he wasn't helped, Massa let him through in Brazil

That wasn't really team orders, Massa himself would have been happy to do it, he was out of the championship so why not help his teammate win it? Again I don't think anyone would have cared if today had been the last race of the championship, or even nearing the end of the championship. We're just too far from the end for this sort of thing to have been done in such a blatantly obvious manner.

#3297 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:54

There is a difference, I have explained this difference to you.

The FIA's practice on enforcing the team order rule has been clear: if you can justify your team order, it is ok. The Monaco 07 investigation ruling makes it obvious this is the FIA's approach. The lack of any investigation for Canada 08 (where Heidfeld was ordered to allow Kubica to pass, because of their different strategies) also makes this clear. As does the lack of any issue with Hockenheim 08. Similar with

So the key questions as to whether the rule was broken are:

1. did the team instruct Felipe to pass

2. can it be justified (either by what happened in the race or the WDC position)

For 1, I think the answer is clear. For 2, I don't think it can be justified by what happened in the race. A 1/2 is the same as a 1/2. Can it be justified by the WDC position? I think so, but this is a more extreme justification than has been tried before.

@ 1) not easy to prove (juridical seen, talking between us: sure!!!)
@ 2) sure it can be justified, alonso is back in the title race

Edited by YellowHelmet, 25 July 2010 - 19:55.


#3298 YellowHelmet

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:55

But while it is a rule what should the punishment be?

the same as before --> nothing

#3299 lexmeister2

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:55

i see this as typical alonso moaning all the way through the race saying get massa out of the way. He did it at Mclaren when hammy was in front of him and he is doing it again. Alonso just cnt function on a equal basis in a team. Fair enough he has a WDC chance and massa does not but i cnt see how he gets so much satisfaction.

Exactly, I remember reading something (from Pat Symonds I think) about how when Fisichella beat Alonso one time when they were both at Renault he was livid - definitely has an odd superiority complex.

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#3300 mkay

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:56

If you can't see the difference between a 5/6 becomming a 1/5 vs a 1/2 staying the same, then I can't help you.

McLaren's instruction was justified by the in race situation. Ferrari's was not. Ferrari have to look to the WDC position to try and justify their instruction. The two situations are different.


Does that warrant a harsher penalty than the other situation? That's the real question. And that's where we disagree. I don't think it's any worse (what Ferrari did) than what McLaren did in all of 2008.

In the end, it's all about maximizing the team's chance of getting both titles.