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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#3501 baddog

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:13

If someone would duct-tape alonso's mouth shut and make him just DRIVE he would be immensely popular as he is fast, exciting on track and takes risks..

Unfortunately his mouth is working and this takes a huge amount of shine away from him.

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#3502 moorsey

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:21

If someone would duct-tape alonso's mouth shut and make him just DRIVE he would be immensely popular as he is fast, exciting on track and takes risks..

Unfortunately his mouth is working and this takes a huge amount of shine away from him.


Very well put.

#3503 F.M.

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:11

Triple world champion Niki Lauda scolded Alonso for blatantly denying he had won the race thanks to a team order. The Independent newspaper said "nobody was fooled" by Alonso's argument that he wasn't aware of the fix.

"I've never heard a driver talk such bullshit. He has no character," said Austrian great Lauda.

http://www.motorspor...p...79436&FS=F1

Edit: And I think this comment from Alonso shows he IS right: "On Friday I was faster, I was second in qualifying and faster than Felipe in the race. I don't think the slower driver won this race"

Edited by F.M., 26 July 2010 - 11:15.


#3504 prty

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:24

Really ? Is it the best Spain can come up with ? A pile of crap that thing you call a forum is. I read about a hundred post of the thread you provided the link. 99 of them blame Massa for the fiasco. The nicest thing I read there about him was that he should pay for the fine from his pocket. Anyway thanks for the link, it gave me a new understanding on why Alonso is the way he is.


"A pile of crap that thing you call a forum is" [...] "99 of them blame Massa for the fiasco".

Replace "Massa" with "Alonso" and the sentences fit like a glove here.

#3505 billkaos

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:42

"A pile of crap that thing you call a forum is" [...] "99 of them blame Massa for the fiasco".

Replace "Massa" with "Alonso" and the sentences fit like a glove here.

Exactly. IMHO the blame is more on Ferrari that on Alonso. All the blame on him is based on the "This is ridiculous" radio. We don't get to hear what all drivers say in order to make a fair comparison.

Indeed, just after weighting FA was asking Massa if he had a problem with the gearbox or something, either tried to look surprised by the easy overtaking or genuinely didn't realize what happened until the podium. It is clear than in the podium he realizes and everything he speaks after that is Ferrari PR, IMHO.

(BTW that forum is not a sports forum, but a kind of a trolling forum)

#3506 F.M.

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:50

Read in the Spanish forum "Forocoches", a well respected forum in which some Spanish race drivers usually post and with the same prestige of this forum...

There's a interesting theory of the race here, and very well elaborated:

"Pues yo apuesto a que ha sucedido lo siguiente:

ha habido una reunión previa en la que se ha acordado que en caso de un 1-2 con el segundo pidiendo paso por ser pretendidamente más rapido, éste debería dejar crecer el gap hasta más allá de los 3 segundos, y seguidamente recuperarlos. En caso de lograrlo, se le haría saber al primero que el segundo había demostrado en pista ser efectivamente más rápido y se le cedería la prioridad.

Sea quien sea el que demuestre tener el ritmo superior.

Me baso para afirmarlo en que:

1) Después de una reunión previa, Fernando se mostró seguro de que Massa no sería un problema.

2) En las primeras vueltas, Massa tenía permiso para luchar.

3) En cuanto se ha Fernando ha dejado crecer la diferencia hasta los 3 segundos, ha habido un mensaje por radio del ingeniero de Massa a éste dicidendo "ahora Felipe, es el momento, hay que darlo todo, the gap is all now. We can win the race."

4) Después de este mensaje, y pese a Felipe lograr varias vueltas rápidas, Fernando recupera el terreno fácilmente.

5) En cuanto lo vuelve a tener a tiro, el mensaje a Massa es otro: "Massa, Fernando es más rápido. Confirma que has entendido el mensaje"

Conclusiones:

Massa podía mantener en pista la diferencia, y habría mantenido la victoria. Esta se la jugaron en el intervalo en que se turnaron en las vueltas rápidas.

Massa es considerablemente más lento, los 3 segundos de ventaja le duraron... cuántas vueltas?

Por último, si la hipótesis del acuerdo previo para actuar de esta forma es cierta, me parece muy inteligente por parte de Ferrari.

Igualmente, siempre me pareció que mi forma de proceder, si yo fuera el propietario de un equipo, sería muy parecida a esa. Nada de dejar que rajen entre ellos, ni jugarretas, ni nada. El que presuntamente se crea más rápido, que lo demuestre en la pista. Si lo hace, nada de que el más lento comprometa la victoria.

Finalmente, Massa mostró su enfado por lo que había pasado, y podía no respetar lo acordado (otros sistemáticamente incumplen pactos previos), pero sí se comportó de acuerdo con las reglas que habían acordado.

Acabo diciendo que si no fuera así cómo han sucedido las cosas, vegüenza para Ferrari, y retiraría lo dicho. Pero si el pacto daba la posibilidad de reclamar prioridad en la pista a ambos, me parece una solución justa".

---Translation (if someone can correct me and help me in the translation, much more better):

"I bet it could have happen as follow:

There was a previous briefing in which was agreed that in the case of 1-2, with the second driving asking to overtake based on he was thinking he was faster, this second driver should give a gap or more than three seconds, and, inmediately to recover the speed. In that case, the leading driver should know that the second driver was faster in the track and, hence, to let the second driver to overtake him. (Second driver should have the priority to overtake).

Whoever he was, he had to show he had a better pace.

I'm based on this:

1) After the previous briefing, Fernando was sure that Massa wouldn't be a problem for him.

2) In the first laps, Mass had green light to fight for the race.

3) When Alonso was behind with more than 3 seconds of gap, there was a radio-message for Massa saying: "Now, Felipe, is the moment. You have to deliver it to the maximum, concentrate, the gap is all now. We can win the race."

[(Radio transcripts needed here)]

4) After this message, and despite Felipe is doing some fastest laps, Fernando is recovering time easily.

5) When Fernando is again just in the back of Massa, Massa is radioed again with a very different message: "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you. Confirm that you understood the message".

Conclusions:

Massa could have the gap on track and race for the win. But both drivers raced each other in the fastest laps episode.

Massa was evidently slower. His 3 seconds gap lasted... how many laps?

Last... if the theory of the previous agreement to behave like this is true, I think that it's a smart move by Ferrari

If I were the owner of a team, my behaviour would be really similar. Nothing about them fighting each other, no dirty tricks. The one who thinks he's fasters has to show that in the track. And if he shows it, the one slower can't compromise his win.

Finally, Massa showed his anger about all what had happened, but he, at least, could have respect (other ones, sistematically didn't do that) the agreement. Anyway, he behaved according to the previous briefing.

I want to finish saying that if things were not according to this theory, shame for Ferrari and I would regret for what I've said. But if the agreement gave both driver to claim for priority in the track, I think that it was a fair agreement"

--------

The most plausible theory for me at the moment according to the radio-comunications, according to certain moments in the race (there's a TV broadcast in Ferrari garage in which someone is explaining, in Spanish, to Emilio Botin, the owner of Santander, that Fernando -being second at that time- "debe dejar tres o cuatro segundos a Felipe antes de atacar" ---"Fernando has to allow about 3, 4 seconds to Felipe before attacking again).

The thing is, Ferrari should also have noted that Massa lost most of his gap due to traffic, suffering massively from it in the first corner (2 times) and in the small last sector one time. Compared to Alonso who could overtake these cars at the long straight to the hairpin and on the start finish straight without any problems. Massa lost 2 seconds and 1.3 seconds to Alonso in two laps with this, from the 2 seconds Alonso recovered during a total of 12 laps!

Edited by F.M., 26 July 2010 - 11:51.


#3507 rabbitleader

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:57

Exactly. IMHO the blame is more on Ferrari that on Alonso. All the blame on him is based on the "This is ridiculous" radio. We don't get to hear what all drivers say in order to make a fair comparison.

Indeed, just after weighting FA was asking Massa if he had a problem with the gearbox or something, either tried to look surprised by the easy overtaking or genuinely didn't realize what happened until the podium. It is clear than in the podium he realizes and everything he speaks after that is Ferrari PR, IMHO.

(BTW that forum is not a sports forum, but a kind of a trolling forum)


People are genuinely outraged by what happened. If you think that many comments are just "trolling" purely to wind up readers/commentators on this forum, I think you are badly mistaken.

#3508 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:01

Is Fernando a Real champion???


Remember Mclaren 2007..... ¿? he had a real contender, Hamilton, were a real reason to change the team.

THE END

Regards

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 26 July 2010 - 12:03.


#3509 Stephan

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:02

Fernando Alonso is a disgusting liar when denying the whole team order debate. He was too slow to win yesterday. This clear "wanting to be number 1" status has shined through from 05 till now, and this is the ugly side of it. I have lost a lot of respect for him yesterday.



#3510 F.M.

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:03

Fernando Alonso is a disgusting liar when denying the whole team order debate. He was too slow to win yesterday. This clear "wanting to be number 1" status has shined through from 05 till now, and this is the ugly side of it. I have lost a lot of respect for him yesterday.

True, although he was a tiny bit faster than Massa on the harder tyre, he was too slow to win

#3511 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:04

Fernando Alonso is a disgusting liar when denying the whole team order debate. He was too slow to win yesterday. This clear "wanting to be number 1" status has shined through from 05 till now, and this is the ugly side of it. I have lost a lot of respect for him yesterday.



Absolutely agree!!!!!!!

:up:

#3512 Pampalini

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:05

Do you actually think he'll pull a Raikkonnen and win the WDC?


First of all I do not really have problem with a team trying to give team orders. Also I have no problem with Fernando's being an Alfa male and playing the racing game in every possible (physical, metaphysical, psychological etc.) level. Also I have no problem with the subtle way Massa got his revenge on Fernando and on his team (typically Massa). It is all part of the game. Ferrari team management was a bit of amateur, and Alonso should have managed his interviews better, that's all.

Back on topic: I do not want to see Alonso as the White Knight of Righteousness in Shining Armor. He is a racing driver and he knows that to be a multiply WDC you must make your hands dirty from time to time. On track he is an awesome driver and I do know that he is the biggest threat to Lewis' second title. But I don't think that he'll manage to pull a Kimi- because history will not repeat itself again in the same decade. Something else must happen... Of course I'm not a seer :smoking:

#3513 as65p

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:12

People are genuinely outraged by what happened. If you think that many comments are just "trolling" purely to wind up readers/commentators on this forum, I think you are badly mistaken.


Well they deserve this outrage no doubt, even if a large percentage of it is just people disliking them for ages and very different reasons than yesterdays shambles. It's the same with every scandal, genuine outrage over the matter at hand mixing with old ressentiments. The latest example of that was McLaren in 2007.

If nothing else they deserve it for what they did and especially the way they did it. A 3 year old could have predicted the public reaction they're facing now. No excuse for such a degree of stupidity.

#3514 Snap Matt

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:16

Alonso does have a remarkable capacity for being the beneficiary of some very questionable behaviour from the teams he has driven for, yet always remains blissfully unaware of the actions behind those events.


#3515 David Ricardo

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:17

Fernando Alonso is a disgusting liar when denying the whole team order debate. He was too slow to win yesterday. This clear "wanting to be number 1" status has shined through from 05 till now, and this is the ugly side of it. I have lost a lot of respect for him yesterday.


What did Alonso do wrong? He isn´t the team owner, he can´t decide what is or isn´t told to Massa. Rob Smedley tells Massa he is slower, Massa lets Alonso past doing it all the most obvious that he is doing it against his will and so you lose all respect for Alonso. What did you expect him to do? Let Sebastian pass both of them?

Also, Alonso was faster than Massa all the weekend. He was faster in free practice, he was faster in qualifying and he was faster in the race. He is in front of Felipe in the WDC standings and is the only one who has a real chance of winning it. If Felipe was a professional as he said in the after race press conference he would have let Fernando pass himself, without his team having to tell him what he already knew: Alonso was faster.

#3516 Mr2s

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:21

I have to say that I've been naive enough to say that Alonso is much more likeable guy this season somewhere around Monaco race. I was wrong. His whining in last few races is just disgusting, not to mention that he actually celebrated his win yesterday.


What a totally pathetic post.

#3517 David Ricardo

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:22

Alonso does have a remarkable capacity for being the beneficiary of some very questionable behaviour from the teams he has driven for, yet always remains blissfully unaware of the actions behind those events.

If you are talking about Singapore 2008, Alonso won thanks to the crashgate but it didn´t benefit his career at all. If he hadn´t won in Singapore, he could have changed to a more competitive team in 2009 thanks to a performance clause in his 2008 Renault contract.


#3518 bonjon1979

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:23

What did Alonso do wrong? He isn´t the team owner, he can´t decide what is or isn´t told to Massa. Rob Smedley tells Massa he is slower, Massa lets Alonso past doing it all the most obvious that he is doing it against his will and so you lose all respect for Alonso. What did you expect him to do? Let Sebastian pass both of them?

Also, Alonso was faster than Massa all the weekend. He was faster in free practice, he was faster in qualifying and he was faster in the race. He is in front of Felipe in the WDC standings and is the only one who has a real chance of winning it. If Felipe was a professional as he said in the after race press conference he would have let Fernando pass himself, without his team having to tell him what he already knew: Alonso was faster.


Come now, please don't pretend you're that naive. If Alonso was so much faster than Massa he should've passed him on the track as we have seen other drivers do. The fact's are, Fernando complained about being stuck behind Massa and the team told their number 2 to move out of the way. It doesn't matter how quick you are in qualifying and practice it is the race that counts.

Do you really believe that Alonso didn't kick up a fuss after Australia and demand that he was the defacto number one? As he has demanded at both Renault and Mclaren before?

It's an absolute disgrace and the WMSC should dock the points for this race from both drivers.



#3519 cardin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:24

What did Alonso do wrong? He isn´t the team owner, he can´t decide what is or isn´t told to Massa. Rob Smedley tells Massa he is slower, Massa lets Alonso past doing it all the most obvious that he is doing it against his will and so you lose all respect for Alonso. What did you expect him to do? Let Sebastian pass both of them?

Also, Alonso was faster than Massa all the weekend. He was faster in free practice, he was faster in qualifying and he was faster in the race. He is in front of Felipe in the WDC standings and is the only one who has a real chance of winning it. If Felipe was a professional as he said in the after race press conference he would have let Fernando pass himself, without his team having to tell him what he already knew: Alonso was faster.

If you have to ask you wouldn't understand the answer.

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#3520 J2NH

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:24

Fernando Alonso is a disgusting liar when denying the whole team order debate. He was too slow to win yesterday. This clear "wanting to be number 1" status has shined through from 05 till now, and this is the ugly side of it. I have lost a lot of respect for him yesterday.


:up: :up:



#3521 billkaos

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:26

Read in the Spanish forum "Forocoches", a well respected forum in which some Spanish race drivers usually post and with the same prestige of this forum...

What the ....! Forocoches is almost the Spanish 2chan, a forum fully dedicated to trolling other sites, it seems they are trying here. Of course, the above affirmation is nonsense.

#3522 Clatter

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:27

If you are talking about Singapore 2008, Alonso won thanks to the crashgate but it didn´t benefit his career at all. If he hadn´t won in Singapore, he could have changed to a more competitive team in 2009 thanks to a performance clause in his 2008 Renault contract.


I'll bet he could have changed to a more competitive team anyway, but there were not many alternatives.


#3523 Number62

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:30

If you are talking about Singapore 2008, Alonso won thanks to the crashgate but it didn´t benefit his career at all. If he hadn´t won in Singapore, he could have changed to a more competitive team in 2009 thanks to a performance clause in his 2008 Renault contract.


Are you saying he won against his will?

#3524 cardin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:47

First of all I do not really have problem with a team trying to give team orders. Also I have no problem with Fernando's being an Alfa male and playing the racing game in every possible (physical, metaphysical, psychological etc.) level. Also I have no problem with the subtle way Massa got his revenge on Fernando and on his team (typically Massa). It is all part of the game. Ferrari team management was a bit of amateur, and Alonso should have managed his interviews better, that's all.

Back on topic: I do not want to see Alonso as the White Knight of Righteousness in Shining Armor. He is a racing driver and he knows that to be a multiply WDC you must make your hands dirty from time to time. On track he is an awesome driver and I do know that he is the biggest threat to Lewis' second title. But I don't think that he'll manage to pull a Kimi- because history will not repeat itself again in the same decade. Something else must happen... Of course I'm not a seer :smoking:


It's a pitty he doesn't show it on the track. Hamilton, Button and even Koba already showed his place on track this year. When he has to overtake his teamate and can't, he screams like a lttle girl on the radio.

Edited by cardin, 26 July 2010 - 12:48.


#3525 velgajski1

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:51

What a totally pathetic post.


I have no clue as to what do you find pathetic in fact that I tried to like Fernando, but failed. His 'manipulated' comments, then 'you don't need to speak to me anymore', then 'come on guys, this is ridiculous', then celebrating the victory and lying to the whole world and he managed to do all of those in just 3 races :)

#3526 Pampalini

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:51

It's a pitty he doesn't show it on the track. Hamilton, Button and even Koba already showed his place on track this year. When he has to overtake his teamate and can't, he screams like a lttle girl on the radio.


In a way I agree with you- I simply cannot accept that the guy who beat Schumi and to my eyes drove like an angel suddenly forgot to drive somehow... So I'd say so far he got bad luck and bad days (happens to anyone)... Don't laugh at me...

#3527 CrashPad

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:02

What did Alonso do wrong?

Besides treating the whole F1 world and fans as idiots by trying to suggest he won the race on merit and there was no team play?


#3528 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:02

What a totally pathetic post.

Whats pathetic about it? Do you think yesterday was a deserved win for Alonso?

#3529 cardin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:08

In a way I agree with you- I simply cannot accept that the guy who beat Schumi and to my eyes drove like an angel suddenly forgot to drive somehow... So I'd say so far he got bad luck and bad days (happens to anyone)... Don't laugh at me...


I don't think he forgot how to drive. His problem is that Hamilton happened in his life and he hasn't recovered yet.


#3530 flyer121

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:08

What a totally pathetic post.


Why pathetic?

Least Alonso cud ve done was not celebrate as if he actually won on merit.

#3531 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:10

It's a pitty he doesn't show it on the track. Hamilton, Button and even Koba already showed his place on track this year. When he has to overtake his teamate and can't, he screams like a lttle girl on the radio.

Yup, it seems like he is struggling to 'do his talking on the track'. He prefers to do his talking on the radio and behind the scenes moaning to Stefano. I think he was probably spoilt so much at Renault that now wherever he goes he expects the standards that Schumi got in 2000-2004. But those times have gone now. New rules are hear to stop that blatant kind of favoritism (although it does still happen in some regards) and if Fernando thinks that he can just try and bully team owners and his team mates then he is really naive. It is the race were points are won not qualy or free practice and if you can't overtake Fernando then it's not Massa that's 'ridiculous' it's you.

#3532 David Ricardo

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:13

Come now, please don't pretend you're that naive. If Alonso was so much faster than Massa he should've passed him on the track as we have seen other drivers do. The fact's are, Fernando complained about being stuck behind Massa and the team told their number 2 to move out of the way. It doesn't matter how quick you are in qualifying and practice it is the race that counts.

Do you really believe that Alonso didn't kick up a fuss after Australia and demand that he was the defacto number one? As he has demanded at both Renault and Mclaren before?

It's an absolute disgrace and the WMSC should dock the points for this race from both drivers.

Alonso was faster than Massa. When Alonso was behind, he was right behind Felipe. He even let felipe build a 3.4 seconds gap only to recover at a rythm of 3 tenths a lap, just to show he was faster. And when Fernando passed, Felipe tried to follow him but he just couldn´t.

When Fernando complained saying "this is ridiculous" he had a good reason to say so. The guy who is around 4 tenths a lap slower and is completely out of the WDC is defending violently from his teammate who is faster and still has a shot at the WDC. They have 43 points assured and they are risking losing all of them and throwing away all of the effort the team put in the car just for his childish behaviour. Isn´t that ridiculous?

Also, about Alonso asking for number one status, that´s an assumption you and Eddie Jordan made, but you can not know for sure. I read something about a no-aggresion agreement they have in Ferrari, that when a driver is faster than the other and is trying to overtake, then the slower one should be cautious and try to avoid crashing.


Edited by David Ricardo, 26 July 2010 - 13:20.


#3533 Slartibartfast

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:17

Alonso was faster than Massa. When Alonso was behind, he was right behind Felipe. He even let felipe build a 3.4 seconds gap only to recover at a rythm of 3 tenths a lap, just to show he was faster. And when Fernando passed, Felipe tried to follow him but he just couldn´t.

When Fernando complained saying "this is ridiculous" he had a good reason to say so. The guy who is around 4 tenths a lap slower and is completely out of the WDC is defending violently from his teammate who is faster and still has a shot at the WDC. They have 43 points assured and they are risking losing all of them and throwing away all of the effort the team put in the car just for his childish behaviour. Isn´t that ridiculous?

No, it isn't ridiculoius. Massa is a racing driver. He is Alonso's competitor, not his wingman.

What is ridiculous is describing Massa's on-track behaviour as childish.

#3534 bonjon1979

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:21

Alonso was faster than Massa. When Alonso was behind, he was right behind Felipe. He even let felipe build a 3.4 seconds gap only to recover at a rythm of 3 tenths a lap, just to show he was faster. And when Fernando passed, Felipe tried to follow him but he just couldn´t.

When Fernando complained saying "this is ridiculous" he had a good reason to say so. The guy who is around 4 tenths a lap slower and is completely out of the WDC is defending violently from his teammate who is faster and still has a shot at the WDC. They have 43 points assured and they are risking losing all of them and throwing away all of the effort the team put in the car just for his childish behaviour. Isn´t that ridiculous?


I'm sure your opinion would be quite different if it were Vettel or Hamilton demanding that their team mate get out of their way. I think it's becoming obvious to everyone that Alonso wants everything handed to him on a plate otherwise the toys are very quickly jettisoned from the pram.

#3535 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:25

Alonso was faster than Massa. When Alonso was behind, he was right behind Felipe.

So? This is a race not a time trial. Part of racecraft is defense as well as attack. Massa showed excellent defensive driving yesterday. If Alonso couldn't overtake then that's his problem, not Massa's.

He even let felipe build a 3.4 seconds gap only to recover at a rythm of 3 tenths a lap, just to show he was faster.

:rotfl: Just....just... :rotfl: . I'm sorry you really should do stand-up :rotfl: .

And when Fernando passed...

You mean when Fernando got let through after not being able to overtake.


#3536 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:26

What is ridiculous is describing Massa's on-track behaviour as childish.

Exactly. He showed very good defensive driving. Good enough to hold back Alonso, thus good enough to deserve to win.

#3537 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:27

I think it's becoming obvious to everyone that Alonso wants everything handed to him on a plate otherwise the toys are very quickly jettisoned from the pram.

A reoccurring theme, I agree.

#3538 molive

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:35

The guy who is around 4 tenths a lap slower and is completely out of the WDC is defending violently from his teammate who is faster and still has a shot at the WDC.


Defending violently? :lol:

Alonso had ONE chance, when Massa hit backmarkers, but failed to capitalize. Throwing out his toys and crying "absurd" just showed again his flawed character.

Teflonso knew he wouldnt have another chance, hence had to rely on a pit call to get the win. Pathetic.



#3539 Pampalini

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:36

I think it's becoming obvious to everyone that Alonso wants everything handed to him on a plate otherwise the toys are very quickly jettisoned from the pram.


Ok, I have a 18 month old daughter. Cute and clever but she wants everything handed to her "on a plate otherwise the toys are very quickly jettisoned from the pram". It's my job as a parent to teach her how to behave and how the Universe works. Well, using that paralell Ferrari has made a terrible mistake. Although Fernando seems to be a hard one- I mean in 2007 McLaren those prams were not successful- and the only thing he learnt from that experience is that you'd better destroy your teammate before he had a chance to question team order- or even better if you have a teammate with whom no teamorders are needed. So the final conclusion is that at the age of the toddlers you might have a chance- but a team principal must be a parenting genius to manage a more than 20 year old child :stoned:

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#3540 K-One

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:43

Spy Gate, race fixing and team orders - all have one thing in common

#3541 SeanValen

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:46

I don't like Alonso at certain times, especially when he shows too much emotion. But for his efforts at Ferrari I will say this.


Ferrari at Valencia, Ferrari at Monaco and Ferrari at Silverstone all could of gone differently, in terms of strongs point finishes, Alonso should be with the leaders at least a while ago. A combination of bad luck/errors/stewards can change everything. Even with the Alonso germany win, I don't think he has many victories as he should have, and the last one had a improved Massa, it's like the season was born to annoy Alonso, he's been keeping ferrari alive even with bad races as Massa's forms hasn't been good, and as soon as ferrari have a win on it's cards, Massa is in the way, very ennoying from his side, Massa's form is too late for ferrari, so I understand the team order, and I think Massa should of been more classy and team player about it.

I hope Massa knows his position now, he's not going for the title, time to serve ferrari just like good old Schumi did by moving over for Irvine at Sepang 1999 to set up the title fight, Irvine vs Hakkinen 1999 even if Irvine was not worthy, the best don't always win titles.

I will also say, I liked Massa's performance, but it's one thing to do well when the car is well, but where was he for most of the season? He was like Rubens, doing alot of average races, then doing a odd couple of good performances when Schumacher had done alot of the hardwork earlier on. Alonso should be much furhter into his points tally then he is now, and ferrari messed up with Messa, if they want to do team orders, I thought they would know to do it sneakily other teams, but maybe Massa caught them by surprise this weekend, as he's been off the pace for a while now, I dont't think Massa deserves the tools of the new ferrari performance because suddenly the car has gotten better, Alonso has been keeping ferrari honors at bay even through alot of badluck and errors, he's still the better one, and I would rather see Massa win personally, but I think it's too late for him this year, but his germany performance shows promise for 2011, and I still think Massa's runner up for the title in 2008 will still be perhaps ferrari's best last result if Alonso doesn't win this year, Massa could be back in shape for 2011, but for now, team player needed-serve ferrari and appreciate what you've been given.


Massa had a great 2008, but perhaps also Kimi had his worst season/badluck and never really extracted his qualifying on bridgestone as he should have, Massa has taken alot of opportunities and 2008 is a example of what you get by sticking with a team, those sort of chances don't come every season, and Alonso likely won't do a Kimi bad season anytime soon, 2008 maybe as good as it gets for Massa, but in the meantime you never know just like 2008, stick it out and remember being in a ferrari is a bonus itself.


Edited by SeanValen, 26 July 2010 - 13:52.


#3542 F.M.

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:50

I don't like Alonso at certain times, especially when he shows too much emotion. But for his efforts at Ferrari I will say this.


Ferrari at Valencia, Ferrari at Monaco and Ferrari at Silverstone all could of gone differently, in terms of strongs point finishes, Alonso should be with the leaders at least a while ago. A combination of bad luck/errors/stewards can change everything. Even with the Alonso germany win, I don't think he has many victories as he should have, and the last one had a improved Massa, it's like the season was born to annoy Alonso, he's been keeping ferrari alive even with bad races as Massa's forms hasn't been good, and as soon as ferrari have a win on it's cards, Massa is in the way, very ennoying from his side, Massa's form is too late for ferrari, so I understand the team order, and I think Massa should of been more classy and team player about it.

I hope Massa knows his position now, he's not going for the title, time to serve ferrari just like good old Schumi did by moving over for Irvine at Sepang 1999 to set up the title fight, Irvine vs Hakkinen 1999 even if Irvine was not worthy, the best don't always win titles.

I will also say, I liked Massa's performance, but it's one thing to do well when the car is well, but where was he for most of the season? He was like Rubens, doing alot of average races, then doing a odd couple of good performances when Schumacher had done alot of the hardwork earlier on. Alonso should be much furhter into his points tally then he is now, and ferrari messed up with Messa, if they want to do team orders, I thought they would know to do it sneakily other teams, but maybe Massa caught them by surprise this weekend, as he's been off the pace for a while now, I dont't think Massa deserves the tools of the new ferrari performance because suddenly the car has gotten better, Alonso has been keeping ferrari honors at bay even through alot of badluck and errors, he's still the better one, and I would rather see Massa win personally, but I think it's too late for him this year, but his germany performance shows promise for 2011, and I still think Massa's runner up for the title in 2008 will still be perhaps ferrari's best last result if Alonso doesn't win this year, Massa could be back in shape for 2011, but for now, team player needed-serve ferrari and appreciate what you've been given.

In what way has Massa not been the classy and the team player? Alonso is the classless and no team player, something by now should be apparent to everyone.

#3543 Stephan

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:52

What did Alonso do wrong? He isn´t the team owner, he can´t decide what is or isn´t told to Massa. Rob Smedley tells Massa he is slower, Massa lets Alonso past doing it all the most obvious that he is doing it against his will and so you lose all respect for Alonso. What did you expect him to do? Let Sebastian pass both of them?

Also, Alonso was faster than Massa all the weekend. He was faster in free practice, he was faster in qualifying and he was faster in the race. He is in front of Felipe in the WDC standings and is the only one who has a real chance of winning it. If Felipe was a professional as he said in the after race press conference he would have let Fernando pass himself, without his team having to tell him what he already knew: Alonso was faster.


What did Alonso do wrong? Playacting by asking what the problem on Felipe's car was, when he knew damn sure what had just happened. Lying to all his fans by denying what had happenend.

You might think that I do not agree with the strategy employed... Although I find it hard to swallow, I can fully understand the reasoning for it. Just don't effin lie about it.

#3544 grunge

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:52

ive been pretty impartial about alonso throughout his career.....there is no denying his talent but there really have been too many negative incidents associated with the man for it all to be a coincidence.

#3545 David Ricardo

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:55

I'm sure your opinion would be quite different if it were Vettel or Hamilton demanding that their team mate get out of their way. I think it's becoming obvious to everyone that Alonso wants everything handed to him on a plate otherwise the toys are very quickly jettisoned from the pram.

First, Alonso didn´t demand nothing. He expressed through radio that he didn´t like the situation because he probably thought it didn´t make any sense for the team and it supposed an innecesary risk.

Then, I don´t think the situation in Red Bull and Mclaren is comparable to the one in Ferrari. In RB and McL, both of the drivers have similar performances and are very close to each other in the points. All of them are up there and anyone could be the next world champion, and in that situation a switch in the position would benefit nobody but the driver who gained the position.

Also, if Felipe didn´t want to give away the position, he didn´t have to. He could have just kept in front and act as he didn´t hear the radio. There was nothing the team could do to prevent him from winning and he could talk about team politics after the race.

Edit: I see there are a lot of replies. I have to go now, but I will answer to most of them when I comeback in the evening.

Edited by David Ricardo, 26 July 2010 - 13:57.


#3546 VoRteX

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:02

Alonso was faster than Massa. When Alonso was behind, he was right behind Felipe. He even let felipe build a 3.4 seconds gap only to recover at a rythm of 3 tenths a lap, just to show he was faster. And when Fernando passed, Felipe tried to follow him but he just couldn´t.

When Fernando complained saying "this is ridiculous" he had a good reason to say so. The guy who is around 4 tenths a lap slower and is completely out of the WDC is defending violently from his teammate who is faster and still has a shot at the WDC. They have 43 points assured and they are risking losing all of them and throwing away all of the effort the team put in the car just for his childish behaviour. Isn´t that ridiculous?

Also, about Alonso asking for number one status, that´s an assumption you and Eddie Jordan made, but you can not know for sure. I read something about a no-aggresion agreement they have in Ferrari, that when a driver is faster than the other and is trying to overtake, then the slower one should be cautious and try to avoid crashing.

what some were wishing is for Fernando to play it hot-headed and make a massive ridicule like Red Bull did in Turkey.
but that is not going to happen.
Felipe rather have them both off-track than be overtaken but Fernando is not going to trash so many points.
enough points trashed already, mainly thanks to friend Charlie, but also due to his own mistakes. it can't happen again.
about Massa... what can i say... they guy was teaching lessons at the start of the season about teamplay and bla, bla... but just cant accept his lower speed all season and had to fuel the show. his overacting of team orders is not going to hide that Fernando is much faster anyway, but only put the team against Felipe. and help sell a few more papers.

#3547 SeanValen

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:03

In what way has Massa not been the classy and the team player? Alonso is the classless and no team player, something by now should be apparent to everyone.



I'm not saying Alonso is a great ambassodor either, in times of emotion he doesn't think thinks through and it's his flaw at times, but Massa by slowing down the way he did at germany to let Alonso passed, was classic Rubens 2002 Austra, if your team has instructed you to do something, and you vent out by making it obvious that your not happy with it, to get public sympathy, your working against yourself, Massa could of tried harder to make it look like Alonso was making a honest pass, and Rubens could of let Michael past in Austria alot sooner then the last lap in 2002-pitstops etc, there was no need for it, I understand, but if you are gonna do it, remember the team, remember your contracts. David Couthard and Irvine didn't mope about, they appreciated their positions in times of team orders and didn't invite public for their emotional times of upset feelings regarding the prize being taken away from them.

Schumacher in 1999-imagine him, he broke his leg, yet he signed up for ferrari to win the title for them, had opportunies with all teams, was in a strong position for the title that year, broken leg, comes back, helps ferrari win constructors title, does a outstanding blocking job for Irvine by keeping mclarens at bay at sepang, leads, and gives his win to Irvine, no fuss-no complaints-serve the team, under contract And Irvine-not worthy for a f1 title in many peoples books outright had a chance of fate to win against Mika in Japan 1999, didn't happen, but MS played a part.

So with Rubens and Massa-maybe it's Brazilian emotion, it's not needed when a team order is given, it's like mutiny in the public, and now ferrari have to suffer a bit in the media while other teams less honest about team orders happily sit by knowing the public are pretty silly as team orders is a poorly policed rule by fia which shouldn't of been written.


I like Massa, but he acted as if he's been doing well this season, he hasn't, and I think he should accept consistently the team can't look to him as their leader this year, so support Alonso, it's too late for him. Massa has 2011, and he gets to show he's better again in the remaining races. Normally Massa is alright, but I think he overeacted at Germany, maybe because it's been so long for a good performance, but that's partly down to him, ferrari have a title to win, and Alonso has been fighting harder and better this year-I still don't like Alonso, but he's the best driver for ferrari available, so I understand ferrari's position.

Edited by SeanValen, 26 July 2010 - 14:08.


#3548 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:03

First, Alonso didn´t demand nothing. He expressed through radio that he didn´t like the situation because he probably thought it didn´t make any sense for the team and it supposed an innecesary risk.

Do you think it was necessary for him to call the very effective defensive driving by his team mate "ridiculous"? I don't, in fact I think it was appalling. The team are watching the monitors, they can see what is a happening. No need for Alonso to moan (again!). If he wanted to inform the team that there was almost a collision (which there wasn't) then he should have said so. Having said that; to belittle his team mate and completely show a lack of respect sums Alonso's character up quite well actually. I don't think we should have expected any better.

#3549 VoRteX

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:09

http://www.bild.de/B...ler-zeiten.html

9 votes for FA
2- votes for the rest
makes you think when its F1 drivers' opinion

#3550 bonjon1979

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:15

First, Alonso didn´t demand nothing. He expressed through radio that he didn´t like the situation because he probably thought it didn´t make any sense for the team and it supposed an innecesary risk.

Then, I don´t think the situation in Red Bull and Mclaren is comparable to the one in Ferrari. In RB and McL, both of the drivers have similar performances and are very close to each other in the points. All of them are up there and anyone could be the next world champion, and in that situation a switch in the position would benefit nobody but the driver who gained the position.

Also, if Felipe didn´t want to give away the position, he didn´t have to. He could have just kept in front and act as he didn´t hear the radio. There was nothing the team could do to prevent him from winning and he could talk about team politics after the race.

Edit: I see there are a lot of replies. I have to go now, but I will answer to most of them when I comeback in the evening.


If Massa had won he'd have been less than a race win behind Alonso in the points and a further seven closer to hamilton. We're only halfway through the season and Massa could easily get back in it with a few DNF's. The main point is that the rules state that all the cars have to race one another - it is an unfair advantage if you as a driver have one less car to battle with because your team mate has been told they are the number 2. Ferrari broke the rules so neither of their drivers should receive points for this race.

Alonso will probably be leading the championship in three or four races time. Massa could certainly have caught up with Hamilton and Co had been given the support of the team. Also, do you really think Massa has got a choice about whether or not to pull over to let Fernando through? He's paid by Ferrari and he has to do what they tell him to. If he hadn't've done what they said he'd've not had a drive next year. simple as.