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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#3601 mkay

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:00

Three statements, all unrelated other than the shared bitterness of tone.

Define please. Overrated by whom? How does one 'over rate' a man who has won two world championships and come close in a third? He is still widely considered the best driver on the grid by a lot of the grid itself. Maybe they are overrating him, but then maybe they know something about F1?


To be fair, I wouldn't take the grid (ie. drivers) as a valid point of view.

But, about your point, you're right.

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#3602 rabbitleader

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:08

domenicali made no mistake yesterday. it was down to smedley and massa to make it look as it looked yesterday!


Oh c'mon please open your eyes..... the "it's ridiculous" comment was n't frustration by Alonso's at his inability to overtake Massa?

This comment also made it obvious that Alonso was saying to the pitwall "Please make Massa slow down so I can pass". All evidence for the racing stewards.

#3603 velgajski1

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:13

German Bild am Sonntag conducted an anonymous survey among 20 current F1 drivers (Williams and Renault drivers didn't participate) last week with some interesting results to say the least:

Best F1 driver of all time:
12 votes for Ayrton Senna
3 votes for Michael Schumacher
2 votes for Alain Prost

Best current F1 driver:
9 votes for Fernando Alonso
2 votes for Lewis Hamilton
2 votes for Jenson Button

WDC 2010 favorite:
8 votes for Lewis Hamilton
6 votes for Sebastian Vettel

"Dirtiest" current F1 driver (no tally count, just the rankings):
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Michael Schumacher

http://www.motorspor...t_10071903.html

<edit>
Check out aditya-now's post in the thread mentioned by Buttoneer for more details:
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4484110
</edit>


Didn't Fisico once won in similar survey? And how do we have 20 drivers and only 12-14 votes? Something is fishy here :)

#3604 Stuko

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:13

One only needs to remember what happened in 2007 with McLaren when ......... *imploded* totally like no other driver in recent history when pressure was applied. :up: :up: :up:



Well.... thinking about how was the WDC standings two races before of the endseason, and what the outcome was, "Lewis" fit perfectly in your phrase. :up:

Edited by Stuko, 27 July 2010 - 14:15.


#3605 search

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:15

Didn't Fisico once won in similar survey? And how do we have 20 drivers and only 12-14 votes? Something is fishy here :)


everyone else voted for himself ;)

#3606 kosmos

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:18

the "it's ridiculous" comment was n't frustration by Alonso's at his inability to overtake Massa?


It's not, he explained it (I believe in the post FIA press conference), he said that to the team because they almost touch each other when he was trying to overtake Massa.


Didn't Fisico once won in similar survey? And how do we have 20 drivers and only 12-14 votes? Something is fishy here


Why don't you read the links mindmill posted?, only two drivers didn't voted.

Edited by kosmos, 27 July 2010 - 14:25.


#3607 Enzoluis

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:27

"This comment also made it obvious that Alonso was saying to the pitwall "Please make Massa slow down so I can pass". All evidence for the racing stewards."

Nobody here realize that FA was following team orders too? Do you think that he was free to pass or not pass FM? Do you think that he was free to make all the attemps to pass FM he could/would? Are you so naif?

#3608 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 14:46

I remember exactly what happened in mclaren and what happened that year tells me alonso is the best driver on the grid. He almost beat a whole team against him, any other driver in the same situation would have finished at least 30 or 35 points behind lewis.

btw, alonso handled the pressure very well whilst driving for mclaren imho

Unless you worked for McLaren in 07, that is complete rubbish - it is one man's word against a team with a proven history of equal treatment. DC often says that he had to support Hakkinen, but he never says anything about being given inferior equipment and less support. This was all in Alonso's head.

And no, he handled it badly. A man with his experience and success should have walked with the 2007 championship. Hamilton made several mistakes through the season, Alonso should have been there picking up serious points everytime that happened. If he hadn't of got caught up in his own emotions, and just kept is head down and got the job done, he would have easily taken the 07 title, and probably the 08 title as well (assuming he stayed at McLaren).

#3609 Alonshou

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:03

Unless you worked for McLaren in 07, that is complete rubbish - it is one man's word against a team with a proven history of equal treatment. DC often says that he had to support Hakkinen, but he never says anything about being given inferior equipment and less support. This was all in Alonso's head.

And no, he handled it badly. A man with his experience and success should have walked with the 2007 championship. Hamilton made several mistakes through the season, Alonso should have been there picking up serious points everytime that happened. If he hadn't of got caught up in his own emotions, and just kept is head down and got the job done, he would have easily taken the 07 title, and probably the 08 title as well (assuming he stayed at McLaren).


yeah yeah yeah...whatever!!!

ron dennis, the pinacle of holy truth! :stoned:

and your second paragraph just tells me you've never ever competed in anything, as you are fully unaware of how extremely important the psychological and supportive factor within a team is in order to deliver properly,
especially in a sport where 1 tenth is everything, if you just face a gp and your communication with your boss is nil you're done, and fernando managed it pretty well indeed, should hamilton be in the same situation but within renault and would have finished 30 points behind at the stats without doubt

#3610 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:05

Unless you worked for McLaren in 07, that is complete rubbish - it is one man's word against a team with a proven history of equal treatment. DC often says that he had to support Hakkinen, but he never says anything about being given inferior equipment and less support. This was all in Alonso's head.

And no, he handled it badly. A man with his experience and success should have walked with the 2007 championship. Hamilton made several mistakes through the season, Alonso should have been there picking up serious points everytime that happened. If he hadn't of got caught up in his own emotions, and just kept is head down and got the job done, he would have easily taken the 07 title, and probably the 08 title as well (assuming he stayed at McLaren).

:drunk:
equal treatment is not just down to equal material!
it is most about the psychologically treatment in the team, and alonso was in that sense more than mistreated.

#3611 Yakari

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:11

yeah yeah yeah...whatever!!!

ron dennis, the pinacle of holy truth! :stoned:

and your second paragraph just tells me you've never ever competed in anything, as you are fully unaware of how extremely important the psychological and supportive factor within a team is in order to deliver properly,
especially in a sport where 1 tenth is everything, if you just face a gp and your communication with your boss is nil you're done, and fernando managed it pretty well indeed, should hamilton be in the same situation but within renault and would have finished 30 points behind at the stats without doubt

If they were both in Renault, Flavio would have sacked Hamilton after the first GP.

#3612 Yakari

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:11

:drunk:
equal treatment is not just down to equal material!
it is most about the psychologically treatment in the team, and alonso was in that sense more than mistreated.

And why was that?

#3613 EVO2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:15

Don't forget Alonso was heavily implicated in Spygate as on several occasions he emailed Pedro DLR to get info from Nigel Stepney at Ferrari.
Ron Dennis was completely unaware that this was going on as the conversation was in Spanish.

He knew about and attempted to use the line of communication into Ferrari then had the bare faced cheek to try and blackmail Ron Dennis over this in a hopeless attempt to gain No 1 status over Lewis Hamilton.

He got away without being accused of having any involvement in Singapore '08 but his reputation has suffered immensely by confessing to be entirely happy to count it as a win.
Sunday's "victory" will tarnish his reputation even more.

Apart from the tantrums at McLaren and those above, we have the example of his poor attitude over the drive through penalty awarded to Lewis at Valencia.

Rather than focussing on his own driving he demanded over the radio to know Hamilton's position after the drive through was taken.
Domenicali knew exactly how Alonso would react when told that Lewis was still second and he had to tell him firmly to forget about Hamilton and concentrate on his own race !


Alonso's character flaws are greater and they more severely effect his ability behind the wheel than those of any other current driver on the grid.

I my view his behaviour at McLaren and everything else we know about him disqualify him from inclusion as one of the greats.





#3614 Kooper

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:16

How anyone can happily support a man with such an attitude puzzles me greatly. There is more than just racing on the track. Not that it has been that impressive lately either.



Well, Charles Manson still has fans, tho their numbers are said to be dwindling.

#3615 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:16

And why was that?

hard to say, maybe because lewis was associated with mclaren for over a decade and almost every one was supporting him for that.

#3616 Peeko

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:22

And why was that?

Because the lure of having the 1st black world champion, the youngest world champion and a rookie to boot, all at once was too much for Ron Dennis to pass up. Mega, mega exposure, and we all know Ron is all about image. That's quite the tag attached to your team that would be very difficult to erase. All IMHO of course.

Edited by Peeko, 27 July 2010 - 15:23.


#3617 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:23

There is no doubt that Alonso is a talented driver, and no one wins world championships without being very, very good.
Yes, he has the driving talent respect of the grid, but this is f1-you are only as fast as your car, and results can be skewed by the situation of being in a fast car, with a weak team mate.
This was Alonso's past.

However, you really have to wonder why Alonso was so visibly upset on the podium at Hockenheim: he was embarrassed, and he was being booed.
Good driver? Certainly. Great sportsman? Nope.
He was not like this before his WC wins, he was very different. He's developed a sense of entitlement since he went to McLaren.

Hockenhein puts Alonso in the WC category of Schumacher (before he got pathetic). But even in this category, some fans still like winners, no matter how they win.

Frankly, the idea that the orders to Massa had anything to do with the WC is ridiculous -Alonso will not win the 2010 world championship, get real.

#3618 as65p

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:26

Alonso's character flaws are greater and they more severely effect his ability behind the wheel than those of any other current driver on the grid.


Well, it's even more amazing then if he wins and beats his teammates, despite carrying the burden of his character around.

#3619 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:28

Hockenhein puts Alonso in the WC category of Schumacher

why? and what does that mean?

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#3620 Yakari

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:28

hard to say, maybe because lewis was associated with mclaren for over a decade and almost every one was supporting him for that.

Lewis has been associated with McLaren for even longer now, and Jenson has just joined the team. If anything, the perception could be that Jenson is more prefered than Lewis. 'Preference' by members of the team is likely to be personality based, rather than length of time at McLaren.

It seems to me that this excuse - and it is an excuse - is a safety mechanism used by some Alonso fans so that they don't have to face up to the fact that Alonso could not fit in at McLaren. That would not be due to his or Hamilton's driving or how long either had been there but on how they interacted with the team on an individual level. If Alonso was unable to make the necessary human connections, whose fault is that?

#3621 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:32

and your second paragraph just tells me you've never ever competed in anything, as you are fully unaware of how extremely important the psychological and supportive factor within a team is in order to deliver properly,
especially in a sport where 1 tenth is everything, if you just face a gp and your communication with your boss is nil you're done, and fernando managed it pretty well indeed, should hamilton be in the same situation but within renault and would have finished 30 points behind at the stats without doubt

I may not be a racing driver, but I know business. There is no way that Alonso's engineers would have been supporting Lewis - I can guarantee 100% that not only is their pride at stake, but they would have some form of bonus from their side of the garage being victorious. Alonso's engineers would have been completely committed to ensuring they offered Alonso the best possible chance at winning the title.

Your comments make it very clear that you clearly don't know a lot about the real world. And also that you probably don't work in a competitive environment.

#3622 Massa_f1

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:33

Alonso is the most over rated driver ever. His fans make excuses for his mistakes, tantrums etc but the reality is he cannot take internal team pressure.



He is over rated IMO why?

What has he done sine Michelin tyre left the sport won a few races and even some of those are questionable. He made shoddy overtakes in the Renault in 08 in 09 Monaco was one were he just rammed someone into spin and lost his own nose.

Other than that the guy has a poor attitude and is no sportsman. Even Senna and Schumacher had a better attitude then him They also didn't damage every team they were in or turn on there own team.

I am sure had Massa not let Alonso through we would of seen his speech from 06 my whole team is against me.

Edited by Massa_f1, 27 July 2010 - 15:34.


#3623 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:33

why? and what does that mean?

Lets put it this way; his comment was not a compliment.

#3624 Menace

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:33

why? and what does that mean?


It means his victory is in the same class and level as Austria 2002 for Schumacher.

To Schumachers credit, even though I was very unhappy with what happened, he has never attempted to lie to the viewing public like Alonso did this last Sunday. I have always respected Schumacher, although I believed his desire to win at any costs was not exactly classy, but atleast he appeared to not hide it. Alonso? Apparently his character is far more questionable, it will be impossible to take his "word" after what happened at Mclaren in 2007, his celebrating after Singapore 2008 and now Germany 2010.

He might be a great driver, but he is far lacking in morals and character it seems.

IMHO. :wave:

#3625 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:34

:drunk:
equal treatment is not just down to equal material!
it is most about the psychologically treatment in the team, and alonso was in that sense more than mistreated.

you mean like massa is now?

#3626 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:35

If Alonso was unable to make the necessary human connections, whose fault is that?

he tried, but was shown that he is not worth the same as lewis.
e.g
after winning malaysia, the team celebrated lewis and not him
after monaco the team let the impression that alonso didnt won being fastest, but through TO etc....
not to forget at first race the team cheering for lewis after he overtook alonso! :drunk:

#3627 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:36

you mean like massa is now?

i dont know how massa is psychologically treated!
if you mean that he had to let alonso win in hockenheim, than yes, he had, but because he is to far away in the WDC.

#3628 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:39

i dont know how massa is psychologically treated!
if you mean that he had to let alonso win in hockenheim, than yes, he had, but because he is to far away in the WDC.

Too far away? How far away was Raikkonen in 2007?

And what happened to Massa has to be the biggest psychological blow they could have offered - after everything he's been through he finally gets back to the front of the field and Ferrari punches him in the stomach. Yeah, we don't know how Massa is psychologically treated :wave:

#3629 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:39

It means his victory is in the same class and level as Austria 2002 for Schumacher.

it surely is no difference to the win of massa in china 08, or kimi in brasil 07 etc.

But it is surely different to MS and Austria 2002.
Austria 2002 was not necessary, MS was leading WDC
Hockenheim 2010 was necessary to bring one of the Ferraro drivers (the one who has much more points!) back in the championship contest!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 27 July 2010 - 15:42.


#3630 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:41

Too far away? How far away was Raikkonen in 2007?

he was never more than 3 wins behind the leader and 8th in the championship!
the situatuion of kimi 2007 and alonso 2010 is similar, and the only way that ferrari can still win WDC is if both drivers help each other, as they did in 2007, too!
--> team spirit

#3631 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:42

fernando doesn't know what team is
team = him

#3632 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:42

he tried, but was shown that he is not worth the same as lewis.
e.g
after winning malaysia, the team celebrated lewis and not him
after monaco the team let the impression that alonso didnt won being fastest, but through TO etc....
not to forget at first race the team cheering for lewis after he overtook alonso! :drunk:

There is no denying that there was a special bond between McLaren and Lewis - he was like a child to the McLaren family, any "parent" will support their "child".

That however is not proof that Alonso was mistreated, he's a big boy, a double world champion, multiple race winner - should really be able to get over that. He shouldn't need McLaren to cuddle him and say "well done Fernando", the success should be reward enough.

#3633 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:43

fernando doesn't know what team is
team = him

your opinion.
but the persons who decide about formula1 (team principals) think totaly different.



#3634 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:43

he was never more than 3 wins behind the leader and 8th in the championship!
the situatuion of kimi 2007 and alonso 2010 is similar, and the only way that ferrari can still win WDC is if both drivers help each other, as they did in 2007, too!
--> team spirit

Massa only helped Raikkonen in the last race of the season, up until that point Raikkonen did all the work himself - I don't think anyone would be complaining if this had happened in the last race.

#3635 wj_gibson

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:44

it surely is no difference to the win of massa in china 08, or kimi in brasil 07 etc.

But it is surely different to MS and Austria 2002.
Austria 2002 was not necessary, MS was leading WDC
Hockenheim 2010 was necessary to bring one of the Ferraro drivers (the one who has much more points!) back in the championship contest!


Now now, YellowHelmet, you know the party line. Incidents such as those at Hockenheim 2008 were completely different to what happened last weekend because the rule 39.1 clearly states that team orders are allowed when cars are on different fuel loads and when the switch is orchestrated in order to finish 1-5, and are illegitmiate comparisons, whereas Austria 2002 was exactly the same.

Shame on you for arguing anything else.

#3636 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:44

There is no denying that there was a special bond between McLaren and Lewis - he was like a child to the McLaren family, any "parent" will support their "child".

That however is not proof that Alonso was mistreated, he's a big boy, a double world champion, multiple race winner - should really be able to get over that. He shouldn't need McLaren to cuddle him and say "well done Fernando", the success should be reward enough.

why not?
everybody in this world, alonso too, can deliver his best when the important persons backs him, if not he has to fight on two fields, and cant just concentrate on one (driving!)

#3637 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:45

your opinion.
but the persons who decide about formula1 (team principals) think totaly different.

ask ron dennis about it :)
or flavio
or stefano

ask the guys that managed him, don't put your opinion on their behalf.

when you've got answers you can pretend it's their opinion. until then it's just another "fact" made up

#3638 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:45

he was never more than 3 wins behind the leader and 8th in the championship!
the situatuion of kimi 2007 and alonso 2010 is similar, and the only way that ferrari can still win WDC is if both drivers help each other, as they did in 2007, too!
--> team spirit

And I'm not sure you can add up based on that.........if Massa had won on Sunday, he would now have 92 points. Lewis Hamilton has 157 points. That makes a difference of 65 points, three races worth is 75 points - on that logic Massa is well in contention for this years title.

#3639 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:46

why not?
everybody in this world, alonso too, can deliver his best when the important persons backs him, if not he has to fight on two fields, and cant just concentrate on one (driving!)

They did back him, they just didn't treat him as though he is the only racing driver in the world which is clearly what he needs.

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#3640 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:46

why not?
everybody in this world, alonso too, can deliver his best when the important persons backs him, if not he has to fight on two fields, and cant just concentrate on one (driving!)

he couldn't exactly do the driving part on sunday, could he? I mean the skill to take the lead
what else was bugging him?


#3641 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:47

Massa only helped Raikkonen in the last race of the season, up until that point Raikkonen did all the work himself - I don't think anyone would be complaining if this had happened in the last race.

different situations needs different approaches.
alonso himself was before that race, nearly 2 race wins (with DNF of the leaders) behind the leader!
and there are just 8 races to go!
so ferrari had to start making TOs earlier as they liked, but it is a necessity!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 27 July 2010 - 15:48.


#3642 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:49

different situations needs different approaches.
alonso himself was before that race, nearly 2 race wins (with DNF of the leaders) behind the leader!
and there are just 8 races to go!
so ferrari had to start making TOs earlier as they liked, but it is a necessity!

If Raikkonen was still in Alonso's car in exactly the same position, they wouldn't have moved them around - the team wouldn't have thought to do it, and Kimi wouldn't have asked for it.

To me that says everything you need to know about Alonso and Santander's involvement.

#3643 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:50

And I'm not sure you can add up based on that.........if Massa had won on Sunday, he would now have 92 points. Lewis Hamilton has 157 points. That makes a difference of 65 points, three races worth is 75 points - on that logic Massa is well in contention for this years title.

and 7 drivers in front of him!
so even if the leader has 3 DNFs and massa wins 3 times, still the other drivers will be in front of him!
massa is 8th in the championship!

#3644 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:52

If Raikkonen was still in Alonso's car in exactly the same position, they wouldn't have moved them around - the team wouldn't have thought to do it, and Kimi wouldn't have asked for it.

dont think so, otherwise kimi would think that the title is not possible!
if kimi thought that the title is still possible and the team too, we would have seen the same, as we saw 2 days ago!







#3645 lexmeister2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:53

and 7 drivers in front of him!
so even if the leader has 3 DNFs and massa wins 3 times, still the other drivers will be in front of him!
massa is 8th in the championship!

He would have been 7th in the championship if not for the switch, so that's 6 drivers ahead of him. Obviously it's a long shot, but it's a bit unfair to completely write off Massa's championship this early when Alonso hasn't been particularly great himself this year either.

#3646 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:54

Please take specific discussion about the weekends event to the appropriate thread, and the Alonso/Massa situation to the appropriate thread.

#3647 Jordana

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:55

If Raikkonen was still in Alonso's car in exactly the same position, they wouldn't have moved them around - the team wouldn't have thought to do it, and Kimi wouldn't have asked for it.

To me that says everything you need to know about Alonso and Santander's involvement.



Yes Sir! I agree 100%

Thanks God, Kimi and Alonso don't have anything in commmon! Day and night!

#3648 alg7_munif

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:57

I wonder why Ferrari would help a driver to win who can't even overtake on his own...

#3649 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 15:58

Yes Sir! I agree 100%

Thanks God, Kimi and Alonso don't have anything in commmon! Day and night!

sure they are different, especially when it comes to the attitude to work.


#3650 Dunder

Dunder
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Posted 27 July 2010 - 16:00

yeah yeah yeah...whatever!!!

ron dennis, the pinacle of holy truth! :stoned:

and your second paragraph just tells me you've never ever competed in anything, as you are fully unaware of how extremely important the psychological and supportive factor within a team is in order to deliver properly,
especially in a sport where 1 tenth is everything, if you just face a gp and your communication with your boss is nil you're done, and fernando managed it pretty well indeed, should hamilton be in the same situation but within renault and would have finished 30 points behind at the stats without doubt


In the first part of the season, Alonso should have had nothing to complain about. He had the better strategies.

Between Monaco and Hungary things were on an even footing.

After Hungary things certainly changed.

I know Alonso denies having attempted to blackmail Dennis (he denies a lot of things) but whatever persuaded McLaren to put their eggs in Hamilton's basket would not have happened if Alonso had taken advantage of the favourable conditions in the early part of the season. The fact is he did not or could not.