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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#4201 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:43

1. I would agree Alonso drove superbly, because he generally always does.
2. The 'very very small error' was actually a very very important one because it put him in the difficult position at the start. I cannot agree that it was not decisive because everything that followed flowed from that moment. As Ferrari2183 says, without it he had the speed to win the race.

One last time will you please stop adding exclamation marks. It is the equivalent of shouting, and there is no need.

@2 see above: post hoc, ergo propter hoc!

and exclamation marks, i dont use to shout, i use it to emphasize things

Edited by YellowHelmet, 27 August 2010 - 11:50.


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#4202 Slartibartfast

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:06

in science such conclusions are called post hoc, ergo propter hoc!

there is no prove for that, that is just speculation!

No it is not an example of a post hoc logical fallacy.

#4203 Number62

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:10

in science such conclusions are called post hoc, ergo propter hoc!

there is no prove for that, that is just speculation!


You may wish to run away from that philosophical cul de sac Mr. Helmet.

Those same arguments that you would wish to use to discredit any arguments against your hero could just as easily be used to disentangle any of Fernando's achievements from his activities. A race after all is a sequence of events going forward in time.

Better to deal in probabilities.

Fernando can be prone to mistakes. In this instance he made a mistake which is likely (i.e. has a high degree of probability) to have disadvantaged him to some degree. It is also likely (has a high degree of probability) that he drove very well after that.

'You can't prove that' is ruinous to debating.

#4204 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:13

No it is not an example of a post hoc logical fallacy.

sure it is!

#4205 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:18

Fernando can be prone to mistakes.

he is human, so sure!
but very seldom.
and if some people want to count the start in australia 2010 as an error of alonso, that costed him a better result, that just shows how desperate they are in their tries to find mistakes!




In this instance he made a mistake which is likely (i.e. has a high degree of probability) to have disadvantaged him to some degree.

to some degree yes, but that doenst caused the mistake of button, as some try to argue.

And the incident with button caused alonsos result and not the very very small start problem!

Edited by YellowHelmet, 27 August 2010 - 12:31.


#4206 robefc

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:31

he is human, so sure!
but very seldom.
and if some people want to count the start in australia 2010 as an error of alonso, that costed him a better result, that just shows how desperate they are in there tries to find mistakes


You're right, it's just impossible to think of any significant errors by alonso this season isn't it... :drunk:

#4207 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:33

You're right, it's just impossible to think of any significant errors by alonso this season isn't it... :drunk:

no it isnt, but australia is sure not the race that is marked by an alonso error!

#4208 Slartibartfast

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:35

he is human, so sure!
but very seldom.
and if some people want to count the start in australia 2010 as an error of alonso, that costed him a better result, that just shows how desperate they are in there tries to find mistakes!




to some degree yes, but that doenst caused the mistake of button, as some try to argue.

And the incident with button caused alonsos result and not the very very small start problem!

No one has tried to make such a claim.


#4209 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:39

No one has tried to make such a claim.

look at post 4207 and 4208 on that page! :eek:

#4210 Slartibartfast

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:43

look at post 4207 and 4208 on that page! :eek:

:eek: They say different things on your screen to mine!!! :eek: How is that possible??? :drunk:














I tried to post in the correct style, but I'm not sure it's 100%

#4211 robefc

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:47

no it isnt, but australia is sure not the race that is marked by an alonso error!


but you just said people were only calling australia an error by alonso becuse they are deperate to try and find errors...if there are others that are easier to point out (as you just admitted) why would they bother to use australia?

Do you think it could be because they genuinely feel it was an error by alonso rather than a symptom of their desperation?

#4212 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:49

:eek: They say different things on your screen to mine!!! :eek: How is that possible??? :drunk:



in post 4207 is said: "Alonso's bad start is the reason for what followed and as such is the reason for where he finished"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc

in post 4208 is said: "I cannot agree that it was not decisive because everything that followed flowed from that moment"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc too!

#4213 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:50

but you just said people were only calling australia an error by alonso becuse they are deperate to try and find errors...if there are others that are easier to point out (as you just admitted) why would they bother to use australia?

to make the mistake list bigger than it is!


#4214 Slartibartfast

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:53

in post 4207 is said: "Alonso's bad start is the reason for what followed and as such is the reason for where he finished"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc

in post 4208 is said: "I cannot agree that it was not decisive because everything that followed flowed from that moment"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc too!

:clap: Your screen works! The problem must be somewhere else! :confused:

#4215 Ferrari2183

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:54

in post 4207 is said: "Alonso's bad start is the reason for what followed and as such is the reason for where he finished"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc

in post 4208 is said: "I cannot agree that it was not decisive because everything that followed flowed from that moment"
and that is post hoc ergo propter hoc too!

Have you ever heard of a thing called chain of events?

#4216 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:55

Have you ever heard of a thing called chain of events?

sure and still there is sth that is called post hoc ergo propter hoc!

#4217 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:55

:clap: Your screen works! The problem must be somewhere else! :confused:

:rotfl:

#4218 robefc

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:57

to make the mistake list bigger than it is!


ah I see, I didn't realise buttoneer et al got off on that sort of thing but it's always a good idea to attack the poster's motives if you can't argue with the post I guess  ;)

#4219 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:59

ah I see, I didn't realise buttoneer et al got off on that sort of thing but it's always a good idea to attack the poster's motives if you can't argue with the post I guess ;)

if their posts make no sense, and still they try to stick to their opinion, there must be some motives for that, i dont say that the motive i mentioned is right, but i also dont say that it is wrong  ;)

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#4220 Ferrari2183

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:07

if their posts make no sense, and still they try to stick to their opinion, there must be some motives for that, i dont say that the motive i mentioned is right, but i also dont say that it is wrong ;)

I'm a Ferrari supporter and I'm hoping Alonso wins the championship. What motive would I have to discredit his driving and to add mistakes to his list?

#4221 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:13

I'm a Ferrari supporter and I'm hoping Alonso wins the championship. What motive would I have to discredit his driving and to add mistakes to his list?

you must know that!
but if you rethink what you posted than you will realise that the start of alonso didnt cause buttons mistake, it was all down to button and without that alonso would have won (with that start!)

#4222 Ferrari2183

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:18

you must know that!
but if you rethink what you posted than you will realise that the start of alonso didnt cause buttons mistake, it was all down to button and without that alonso would have won (with that start!)

Good grief...

#4223 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:23

Good grief...

whatever

#4224 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:32

alonso again fastest! :up:

#4225 ToniLola

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:46

you must know that!
but if you rethink what you posted than you will realise that the start of alonso didnt cause buttons mistake, it was all down to button and without that alonso would have won (with that start!)



in post 4203, you claim that it is 'far too speculative' for Buttoneer to deduce that the alonso/button incident wouldn't have happened if alonso didn't slip on the paint, yet you can deduce that he would have won the race! that is pretty impressive. sorry buttoneer, you are definitely outmatched on this one.



i just re-watched the start and alonso totally dropped the ball on the start.


#4226 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:48

if their posts make no sense, and still they try to stick to their opinion, there must be some motives for that, i dont say that the motive i mentioned is right, but i also dont say that it is wrong ;)

It's rather disappointing that you have felt it necessary to resort to ad hominems.

#4227 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:55

It's rather disappointing that you have felt it necessary to resort to ad hominems.

after i was asked?
why is that disappointing.

and for most i was arguing about the circusmstances and why the opinion that the result of australia was alonsos fault is wrong, and you just picked one selective quote that should erase the other posts regarding that topic? :down:



#4228 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 13:58

in post 4203, you claim that it is 'far too speculative' for Buttoneer to deduce that the alonso/button incident wouldn't have happened if alonso didn't slip on the paint, yet you can deduce that he would have won the race!

i admitted to the opinion of ferrari2183, who said that alonso had the speed to win, but i said that not the start hindered him, it was buttons hit!


#4229 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 14:03

after i was asked?
why is that disappointing.

Because I have been arguing about the issues instead of calling into question your motive, and rather hoped you might return the courtesy.

To save the discussion going even lower, I shall bow out here.

#4230 YellowHelmet

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 14:05

Because I have been arguing about the issues

me too, with you
and we already came to the conclusion that the start didnt cause buttons mistake, and that alonso drove superbly in australia 2010, and if button hadnt hit him, he may have won, becuase he got the speed that day.

i am out too


#4231 aditya-now

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 01:37

No need for a wall!

Posted Image !!


I love this gif!

In general this behaviour seems to happen to quite some users of this BB.... :D

(Great moment when he loses even his eye)

#4232 absentia

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:44

A self-assured interview with Fernando in today's The Guardian. Nice read.


http://www.guardian....ari-formula-one?

In China he jumped the start – "Driver error," he says with a rueful grin – and, after a penalty dropped him to 15th, again chased through the field to fourth.

His Monaco weekend was ruined when he lost control at the top of the climb to Casino Square and smashed into the barrier during a practice session. There was a look of barely suppressed self-disgust on his face as he lifted himself out of the car, knowing that he would have to set off from the pit lane on another adrenalin-fuelled drive to sixth place.

"Driver error again there," he says, before putting it in perspective. "I'm sure that for all championship contenders there are two or three races a year you would like to change because you did something wrong. In our case, because there are high expectations, there are many more comments. When I'm in front or I'm half a second quicker than my team-mate, that is seen as normal. When we do something wrong, it will be everywhere. We have to deal with that pressure."

#4233 Johnrambo

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:10

On the ultimate drivers track Alonso is nowhere. :wave:

#4234 Massa_f1

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:12

On the ultimate drivers track Alonso is nowhere. :wave:



Yep another mistake from apprently the most complete driver in f1 hahaha i think not. All his championship rivals are ahead and i hope it stays that way.

#4235 Flamini

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:14

On the ultimate drivers track Alonso is nowhere. :wave:


Alonso beat Hamilton on this track in the same car, so... :wave:

This thread is always full of trolls when Alonso has bad race, I love this losers :rotfl:

#4236 showtime

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:15

We'll see what happens tomorrow if rains, he's the only one of them with wet setup.

#4237 Mackey

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:19

Alonso beat Hamilton on this track in the same car, so... :wave:

This thread is always full of trolls when Alonso has bad race, I love this losers :rotfl:


Yeah, not one minute after a bad race/qualy and the board fills with trolls :rotfl:

It´s obvious Alonso has a different setup, but i think he´s gone too far with it.

#4238 kosmos

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:20

The time to judge the strategy is tomorrow after the race, not now. Go away trolls :wave:

#4239 gaston_foix

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:27

Yeah, not one minute after a bad race/qualy and the board fills with trolls :rotfl:

It´s obvious Alonso has a different setup, but i think he´s gone too far with it.

It's a mistake IMO I don't think it will rain so heavy... Gambling, risking... Bad idea IMO

Edited by gaston_foix, 28 August 2010 - 13:28.


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#4240 undersquare

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:35

It´s obvious Alonso has a different setup, but i think he´s gone too far with it.


Well you can blame setup for the 0.2 behind Massa in Q2, but not the 1.1 in Q3.


#4241 gaston_foix

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 13:42

Well you can blame setup for the 0.2 behind Massa in Q2, but not the 1.1 in Q3.

He made a mistake in his 1st run for sure. But it's not too important. If it is not raining he is doomed anyways...

#4242 lexmeister2

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 22:34

Really poor performance, and don't like the way he's blaming Ferrari - another lacklustre performance, interested to see whether he can redeem himself in the race tomorrow.

#4243 bond

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 22:52

We'll see what happens tomorrow if rains, he's the only one of them with wet setup.


Rosberg also has wet setup...

#4244 Mackey

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 23:06

Really poor performance, and don't like the way he's blaming Ferrari - another lacklustre performance, interested to see whether he can redeem himself in the race tomorrow.


:drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

#4245 ZooL

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 00:22

How many mistakes this season now? :/

#4246 Panktej

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 00:54

Alonso is definitely on wet setup..look at the difference between his and Felipe Massa's rear wing...

Posted Image

#4247 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 02:09

The wings are different alright... but is it really a weather adjustment thing?

Maybe it's a gamble on weather, can't rule that out... but it's not like Alonso has a history of admitting mistakes either..

#4248 HPT

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 07:04

I think those who are hoping that Alonso has a wet setup is probably going to end up disappointed. I haven't seen or read anything that has suggested he has gone for a wet setup. I mean, I'm actually hoping that he really does have a wet setup, but the reality is he probably doesn't.

Edit to say - according to a forumer on PF-1, Gene said on La Sexta that Alonso has indeed gone for a wet setup. So here's praying for rain!

Edited by HPT, 29 August 2010 - 07:11.


#4249 Ferrari2183

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 07:39

I think those who are hoping that Alonso has a wet setup is probably going to end up disappointed. I haven't seen or read anything that has suggested he has gone for a wet setup. I mean, I'm actually hoping that he really does have a wet setup, but the reality is he probably doesn't.

Edit to say - according to a forumer on PF-1, Gene said on La Sexta that Alonso has indeed gone for a wet setup. So here's praying for rain!

He f'd up his lap and judging by the wing he is using he definately has rain in mind. He didn't bank on being tenth though but that is his own doing. If it doesn't rain he will have a hard time getting through the field. Massa also said that he made a mistake and wanted to be higher up the grid.

#4250 as65p

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 08:19

He f'd up his lap and judging by the wing he is using he definately has rain in mind. He didn't bank on being tenth though but that is his own doing. If it doesn't rain he will have a hard time getting through the field. Massa also said that he made a mistake and wanted to be higher up the grid.


Actually he ****ed both his laps, which simply shouldn't happen if you want to be WDC :well:

The irony is, as I had an eye on the FIA live timing, the in lap after his first run would probably been his fastest of the day had he completed it, the first two sectors where really fast.