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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#4401 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:25

:confused:

Maybe it's not very well expressed.
Which bit's funny though?


Difficult to explain, I just smiled about the last sentence "not obvious... that it was evident."

Don't let it irritate you, I'm known for laughing about stuff nobody else finds funny.  ;) :wave:

As to the issue, sure it was a difficult situation for Hamilton. But let's put it another way, there was a possibility that he would have managed the corner without going off, can we agree on that?

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#4402 teejay

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:29

Sure, as long as we agree that there was a possibilty for Fernando to have made his corner too.

Edited by teejay, 31 August 2010 - 14:29.


#4403 trogggy

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:29

Difficult to explain, I just smiled about the last sentence "not obvious... that it was evident."

Don't let it irritate you, I'm known for laughing about stuff nobody else finds funny. ;) :wave:

As to the issue, sure it was a difficult situation for Hamilton. But let's put it another way, there was a possibility that he would have managed the corner without going off, can we agree on that?

No problem.
Sure, he could have got round it by going slower.
But 'there was a certain grip limit in the specific condition on the specific tyre' doesn't actually mean anything when you examine it. If that corner was covered in oil, or black ice, or teflon then your statement would still be true.


#4404 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:30

Difficult to explain, I just smiled about the last sentence "not obvious... that it was evident."

Don't let it irritate you, I'm known for laughing about stuff nobody else finds funny. ;) :wave:

As to the issue, sure it was a difficult situation for Hamilton. But let's put it another way, there was a possibility that he would have managed the corner without going off, can we agree on that?

You do realise he was racing?

There are many drivers that could poodle round a wet track in a F1 car fitted with slicks

#4405 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:33

It sure does fly.

Lewis - slicks on a track that had just started to get wet, so no real idea of the grip levels as he was the first car through on the lap.


They all had experience of the changing conditions from all weekend. There was a safe speed to go round the corner, yet Hamilton despite having already negotiated a few wet corners earlier in the lap, and having 12 secs in hand, exceeded it. That remains a driver mistake, regardless how anyone tries to twist it in some sort of unavoidable fate.

Fernando - wet tyres on a track that was already wet which every driver was aware of as it had been raining for a while in a car setup to suit the wet.


Your telling us its the same thing?


I tell you it's similar in that both were driver errors.

#4406 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:34

You do realise he was racing?


You realize what racing is about? Drive as fast as possible without going off, for example?

#4407 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:35

They all had experience of the changing conditions from all weekend. There was a safe speed to go round the corner, yet Hamilton despite having already negotiated a few wet corners earlier in the lap, and having 12 secs in hand, exceeded it. That remains a driver mistake, regardless how anyone tries to twist it in some sort of unavoidable fate.



I tell you it's similar in that both were driver errors.

How could he know the grip level when it was getting wetter?

#4408 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:36

Sure, as long as we agree that there was a possibilty for Fernando to have made his corner too.


Absolutely. I'm not the one trying to find excuses for what was clearly a plain error of my favourite driver.

#4409 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:37

How could he know the grip level when it was getting wetter?


Well, I take it you consider it a miracle all those past times a leading driver manages to get round the track when it started to rain? :drunk:

#4410 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:37

You realize what racing is about? Drive as fast as possible without going off, for example?

Depends what you mean by fast, how did Lewis manage to qualify 2nd on a damp track whilst some other drivers were 1 second slower?

#4411 artista

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:39

You mean the F10?


That’s what he said during the pre-season tests. It could be PR but that’s what he said.

You think Massa was that good that Ferrari would resign a sub-standard Massa?


If Ferrari had any doubts on that score i dont believe they would have resigned him


Let’s see how I write this, I don’t want to upset or wind up anybody.

The Brazilian market is very important for FIAT and Alonso wanted a #2-driver in the team, why should Ferrari search for another driver if they already had Massa? Who else would accept to drive under those conditions?

Yes, I think, Ferrari would re-sign Massa even if he's not 100% fit, but it doesn't mean I agree with that or think that's fair with Massa.


#4412 F1Johnny

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:40

It sure does fly.

Lewis - slicks on a track that had just started to get wet, so no real idea of the grip levels as he was the first car through on the lap

Fernando - wet tyres on a track that was already wet which every driver was aware of as it had been raining for a while in a car setup to suit the wet.

Your telling us its the same thing?


:up:

Both made mistakes which is what as65P is trying to push, but there is such a massive difference in the circumstances as you perfectly outlined above. The 2 cases cannot be compared IMO.

#4413 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:40

No problem.
Sure, he could have got round it by going slower.
But 'there was a certain grip limit in the specific condition on the specific tyre' doesn't actually mean anything when you examine it. If that corner was covered in oil, or black ice, or teflon then your statement would still be true.


Except that the drivers are not supposed to be able and deal with that. Rain starting to fall during a race OTOH... I feel safe to claim it happened before in the history of racing.

#4414 gaston_foix

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:41

We talked for nothing about his crash. He would have been penalized for an unsafe release, so he would have got no points anyways....


#4415 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:43

The thread is for discussion of Fernando Alonso. Please try to avoid discussing specific racing incidents and other drivers here. You should find other threads or start new ones if you have something specific to discuss.

#4416 trogggy

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:43

Except that the drivers are not supposed to be able and deal with that. Rain starting to fall during a race OTOH... I feel safe to claim it happened before in the history of racing.

Sure.
It was obviously a mistake.
He was obviously lucky* to get away with it.
And obviously (this is the bit you seem to be dodging) the rest of the field wouldn't make the same mistake once they got their radio messages.
Is that all fair to say?
*Obvious to nearly everyone. :D

Alonso's error is different in that he was on the right tyres, which makes it worse. But it's also different in that he had less to lose, and more reason to be pushing hard at that point. He certainly didn't have the luck that Lewis did.

Edited by trogggy, 31 August 2010 - 14:46.


#4417 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:44

:up:

Both made mistakes which is what as65P is trying to push, but there is such a massive difference in the circumstances as you perfectly outlined above. The 2 cases cannot be compared IMO.


Arghh..., you too, Bruto?

Whatever, I explained myself best I could. Nothing more to be said, I guess I'll have to live with the majority disagreeing. Will manage, barely...

;)

#4418 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:47

Sure.
It was obviously a mistake.

He was obviously lucky* to get away with it.

And obviously (this is the bit you seem to be dodging) the rest of the field wouldn't make the same mistake once they got their radio messages.

Is that all fair to say?


*Obvious to nearly everyone. :D


Alonso's error is different in that he was on the right tyres, which makes it worse. But it's also different in that he had less to lose, and more reason to be pushing hard at that point. He certainly didn't have the luck that Lewis did.


Okay...ish. Yellow OT card shown anyway, so... :wave:

#4419 F1Johnny

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:53

Arghh..., you too, Bruto?

Whatever, I explained myself best I could. Nothing more to be said, I guess I'll have to live with the majority disagreeing. Will manage, barely...

;)


Well, for what it's worth, I don't agree that Alonso is over-rated. ;)

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#4420 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 14:54

Except that the drivers are not supposed to be able and deal with that. Rain starting to fall during a race OTOH... I feel safe to claim it happened before in the history of racing.

So what went wrong when nearly all the drivers went off at the same corner?

#4421 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:00

That’s what he said during the pre-season tests. It could be PR but that’s what he said.



Let’s see how I write this, I don’t want to upset or wind up anybody.

The Brazilian market is very important for FIAT and Alonso wanted a #2-driver in the team, why should Ferrari search for another driver if they already had Massa? Who else would accept to drive under those conditions?

Yes, I think, Ferrari would re-sign Massa even if he's not 100% fit, but it doesn't mean I agree with that or think that's fair with Massa.

Lewis said the McLaren is the best car he's ever driven as well, all the cars have improved

I personally feel Massa is 100% ok, Alonso is simply better

#4422 bonjon1979a

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:01

It's crystal clear that Alonso made a BAD decision with the set up for qualifying. I can't understand why he didn't try to qualify higher like his teammate did. You can't take risks when you fight for the WDC.


He's taking risks because he needed to win or at least get a podium. Alonso used his 7th engine in Spa and there are 6 races left to go, so I really can't see him surviving without a grid penalty for use of a 9th engine. There's also the possibility that he'll lose points from German GP so he's got to take gambles to stand a chance to win. If it would've come off then everyone would have declared him a genius. looking at the weather forecast one friday which was for a wet weekend you have to say that there was a strong possibility that it could've happened for him.

#4423 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:02

So what went wrong when nearly all the drivers went off at the same corner?


Well, what went right all those times the leader of some race didn't go off on a track getting wet?

#4424 Trust

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:02

Lewis said the McLaren is the best car he's ever driven as well, all the cars have improved

I personally feel Massa is 100% ok, Alonso is simply better

:up:

#4425 artista

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:06

Lewis said the McLaren is the best car he's ever driven as well, all the cars have improved


As I said, Alonso could have been doing PR, or maybe not, who knows?

I personally feel Massa is 100% ok, Alonso is simply better


That’s one of the best characteristics of the human beings. If we all had the same opinions the world would be a very, very boring place :)


#4426 bauss

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:10

Well, what went right all those times the leader of some race didn't go off on a track getting wet?


lol dude, they were both mistakes... the point is circumstances were different, degrees of mistakes were different.

had Alonso lifted a bit he may have spun but being able to carry on, had Lewis braked later his race may have being ended there.... F1 is all about fine margins and both mistakes are obviously not of the same margin all things considered.

As you can see, just about everyone else recognizes this but you.

Frankly, I think Alonso's poor race all boiled down to qualifying, which may have being solely cos of his wet weather gamble...which is likely cos of his points position, which is cos of his earlier mistakes, which is....etc :)

Edited by bauss, 31 August 2010 - 15:13.


#4427 Trust

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:11

As I said, Alonso could have been doing PR, or maybe not, who knows?



That’s one of the best characteristics of the human beings. If we all had the same opinions the world would be a very, very boring place :)

Injury can't really slow him only three tenths? Do you really believe Massa is good as Alonso?

#4428 engel

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:13

Lewis said the McLaren is the best car he's ever driven as well, all the cars have improved

I personally feel Massa is 100% ok, Alonso is simply better


Massa is a shadow of his former self.

What made Massa great in 2008 was a combination of factors

a) Todt left -> Nobody forcing the team into having a direction
b) Raikkonen didn't ask for attention, so he got none, Massa did and got it in spades (which by the way is Raikkonen's mortal flaw, he doesn't have the natural ability to assert himself within the team, he needs a Jean Todt or a Ron Dennis to force the team to listen to him)

Under those circumstances Massa thrives, that's his character, he needs the attention. Those circumstances aren't there anymore. Alonso demands and gets most of the attention and Massa has Smedley.

And a year ago he almost died. 6 months later he became a dad. Combine the too and you get a very natural tendency towards risk aversion. When Massa pushes he makes mistakes, he spins etc. Has he been pushing this season?

#4429 Yorkie

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:19

Well, what went right all those times the leader of some race didn't go off on a track getting wet?

When it rained in practice cars were going off the track, go figure

#4430 artista

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:37

Injury can't really slow him only three tenths? Do you really believe Massa is good as Alonso?


Well, I don’t know how we (the people in this board) could know how many tenths a brain injury would mean in Massa’s case. It would depend on how lucky he was. It could be nothing, 2 secs/lap or anything in between, we are talking about brain injuries here. As I said, the only case I can remember of a F1 driver going through such an injury and getting back his pace afterwards is Häkkinen.

I don’t think today’s Massa is as good as Alonso. But I don’t know if this is the old Massa or not, and that's the point I was making, no more and no less.

Nevertheless and now that we're at it, if we changed the positions of Massa and Alonso in Hockenheim, the difference between Alonso and Massa after 13 rounds would be of 18 points (8 points in the old system). Since we all agree today’s Alonso is much better than today’s Massa, I think Alonso should begin to meditate what he’s doing wrong if he wants to win the championship, because it's clear he's havig problems to make so many points as he should, compared with his much slower team mate.


#4431 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:48

When it rained in practice cars were going off the track, go figure


I don't get your figures, but nevermind.

If you insist on Hamiltons error being somehow of a lesser kind than Alonsos, well, lots of posters are desperate to agree with you.

Not me, but maybe supporting Alonso somehow prevents me from recognizing the beauty of Lewis' mistakes...  ;)

#4432 F.M.

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 15:58

I don't get your figures, but nevermind.

If you insist on Hamiltons error being somehow of a lesser kind than Alonsos, well, lots of posters are desperate to agree with you.

Not me, but maybe supporting Alonso somehow prevents me from recognizing the beauty of Lewis' mistakes...;)

Well, let's put the difference next to each other then:

Hamilton <-> Alonso
sliding off track <-> crashing
wrong track conditions for the tyres <-> riding over the wet kerbs (rookie mistake)
at the front <-> in the mid-pack
on slicks <-> on intermediates

I can see a difference between sliding off track because the track conditions aren't suited to the tyres, while you are driving at the front (first to arrive at all the now wet corners) and on slicks, compared to crashing you're car because you drove massively over the wet kerbs, while driving in the mid-pack and being on the right tyres.
Not to mention telling that rain will be good for his race.

Edited by F.M., 31 August 2010 - 15:59.


#4433 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 16:04

Well, I don’t know how we (the people in this board) could know how many tenths a brain injury would mean in Massa’s case. It would depend on how lucky he was. It could be nothing, 2 secs/lap or anything in between, we are talking about brain injuries here. As I said, the only case I can remember of a F1 driver going through such an injury and getting back his pace afterwards is Häkkinen.

I don’t think today’s Massa is as good as Alonso. But I don’t know if this is the old Massa or not, and that's the point I was making, no more and no less.

Nevertheless and now that we're at it, if we changed the positions of Massa and Alonso in Hockenheim, the difference between Alonso and Massa after 13 rounds would be of 18 points (8 points in the old system). Since we all agree today’s Alonso is much better than today’s Massa, I think Alonso should begin to meditate what he’s doing wrong if he wants to win the championship, because it's clear he's havig problems to make so many points as he should, compared with his much slower team mate.


Not that I know much about neurology, but I just can't imagine any sort of brain damage that would allow you to still compete at the front of the field in F1 perfectly well, but losing between 2 or 5 tenths compared to an earlier, undamaged brain state. I would expect any sort of permanent damage would rule you out of racing completely, not just losing your minute amounts of speed.

What I can imagine OTOH, is the driver subconsciously becoming more reluctant to take risks after an accident like Massa's. In another thread recently there was a quote from Hakkinen to that effect re: his accident in Australia '95.

So the latter could probably slow Massa down sometimes, but not, IMO, any sort of reamining physical damage to the brain.

#4434 artista

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 16:15

Not that I know much about neurology, but I just can't imagine any sort of brain damage that would allow you to still compete at the front of the field in F1 perfectly well, but losing between 2 or 5 tenths compared to an earlier, undamaged brain state. I would expect any sort of permanent damage would rule you out of racing completely, not just losing your minute amounts of speed.

What I can imagine OTOH, is the driver subconsciously becoming more reluctant to take risks after an accident like Massa's. In another thread recently there was a quote from Hakkinen to that effect re: his accident in Australia '95.

So the latter could probably slow Massa down sometimes, but not, IMO, any sort of reamining physical damage to the brain.


If I remember well Piquet used to say that after his accident he had problems to get the braking points as before, that things were not so automatic (things will not come intuitively) as before his accident. Nevertheless, he managed to keep on driving, just not as well as before.

The effect of some brain injuries are very difficult to evaluate. For example, my little brother hit his head at work and got just a concussion: one month later he asked his girlfriend to marry him. Believe me, had he not hit his head he would never be a married man right now. :drunk:


#4435 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 16:20

If I remember well Piquet used to say that after his accident he had problems to get the braking points as before, that things were not so automatic (things will not come intuitively) as before his accident. Nevertheless, he managed to keep on driving, just not as well as before.

The effect of some brain injuries are very difficult to evaluate. For example, my little brother hit his head at work and got just a concussion: one month later he asked his girlfriend to marry him. Believe me, had he not hit his head he would never be a married man right now. :drunk:


Well, a convincing argument if ever I saw one :lol: . Only problem is, Massa married and even got a child, already before the accident ...

 ;)

#4436 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 16:24

This is not a thread a bout Massa or Hamilton. If you wish to discuss race incidents, please go to the post race thread or start a new one if it's worthy of discussion.

Further off topic posts will be deleted.

#4437 MadYarpen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 16:27

Well, a convincing argument if ever I saw one :lol: . Only problem is, Massa married and even got a child, already before the accident ...

;)


So I'm curious whether he got interested in scientology!

#4438 autosportfan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 17:14

Do you think Ferrari could work at all with Kimi and Alonso in the same team? That would be real fireworks. Ferrari are not that stupid.


Kimi would not care and he would just do his job - but the case Alonso could be different ....

#4439 autosportfan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 17:20

Didn't Ferrari sack Kimi?;)


No - El Banco paid him out...

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#4440 cardin

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 20:06

That’s what he said during the pre-season tests. It could be PR but that’s what he said.



Let’s see how I write this, I don’t want to upset or wind up anybody.

The Brazilian market is very important for FIAT and Alonso wanted a #2-driver in the team, why should Ferrari search for another driver if they already had Massa? Who else would accept to drive under those conditions?

Yes, I think, Ferrari would re-sign Massa even if he's not 100% fit, but it doesn't mean I agree with that or think that's fair with Massa.


Not only Fiat. Santander makes a crap load of money in Brazil. It's easy to understand why Massa accepted this situation. He still have a big question mark over his head and I don't think any other team would touch him.

#4441 AlanWake

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 20:33

Alonso's Blog:

It was not the Belgian Grand Prix we were expecting, that’s for sure. I think the key moment in my race came on the very first lap. I had made a good start and made up a few places. The car was responding well and there was every chance of finishing up on the podium. Unfortunately, I had to come back to the pits almost immediately and that changed everything. Even though I climbed up the order, I only found myself back in the points because a handful of cars ahead of me retired: that explains what a difficult race it was. I could have done without going off the track, but it did not make a great difference: the rain meant that any chance I had of making up some places through our strategy evaporated. It seems that this year, the opening laps have not gone too well for me: in five races out of thirteen, I have found myself slipping to the back, either because of our own mistakes or because of circumstances beyond our control, as was the case two days ago in Belgium. I have always said – and I repeat it now – that in the course of the season, good luck and bad luck tend to balance one another out, so let’s hope that from now on it’s payback time!

The first final went badly, but there are still six to go. Going into these seven races, I had said that whoever did the best job in them would take the title: clearly, there are now three of us who need to make up for ground lost in Spa. With this points system and the way races swing one way or another, I am convinced we still have a significant chance. There are 150 points up for grabs, enough to turn the situation around. We must remain calm and concentrate, to try and make up the difference as soon as possible. There is no denying that the Monza race will be very important. At our home circuit we will have to do everything to avoid losing any more points: a good result here would be a great boost. If things go badly, it won’t be over but it would be a hard knock for team morale.

Racing at Monza for the first time as a Ferrari driver will definitely be a nice feeling. Our team is made up of 95% Italians and you can feel the passion and the will to do well for this special event. I can’t wait to be there and look forward to seeing the grandstands packed with fans: we need their support.

Edited by AlanWake, 31 August 2010 - 20:35.


#4442 engel

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 20:40

but it did not make a great difference: the rain meant that any chance I had of making up some places through our strategy evaporated.



This bit confuses me ... wasn't their strategy supposedly dependent on rain? all that he's got a wet setup crap we heard Saturday?

#4443 bond

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 20:43

This bit confuses me ... wasn't their strategy supposedly dependent on rain? all that he's got a wet setup crap we heard Saturday?

:up:
Well spotted. They LIED on Saturday...


#4444 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 20:55

What "theory"? That its the best car he has ever driven are Alonsos own words.

You mean the F10?

Yes. The F10. He said that.

#4445 mkay

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:05

This bit confuses me ... wasn't their strategy supposedly dependent on rain? all that he's got a wet setup crap we heard Saturday?


The wet setup was a BS excuse. Glad to hear it from the horse's mouth.

#4446 Headspin

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:10

The wet setup was a BS excuse. Glad to hear it from the horse's mouth.


Of course it was, when has anything been Alonso's fault according to him?

#4447 OO7

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:15

:up:

Both made mistakes which is what as65P is trying to push, but there is such a massive difference in the circumstances as you perfectly outlined above. The 2 cases cannot be compared IMO.

:up:

#4448 F.M.

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:20

This bit confuses me ... wasn't their strategy supposedly dependent on rain? all that he's got a wet setup crap we heard Saturday?



:up:
Well spotted. They LIED on Saturday...

I think what Alonso means is the strategy they had at that moment during the race, tyre-related. Not set-up related

#4449 selespeed

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:22

This bit confuses me ... wasn't their strategy supposedly dependent on rain? all that he's got a wet setup crap we heard Saturday?



i think he meant that mercedes drivers had to pit and he didn't....so without the rain he would leapfrog them...

edit F.M. - great minds think alike! :lol:

Edited by selespeed, 31 August 2010 - 21:23.


#4450 cardin

cardin
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  • Joined: October 02

Posted 31 August 2010 - 21:24

:up:
Well spotted. They LIED on Saturday...


To be fair they didn't lie(I'm assuming you are talking about Ferrari/Alonso) This was a fanboy BS excuse to 'explain' why he was slower than Massa on saturday. There was no evidence for it as pointed out by a few of us.