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Fernando Alonso thread [merged]


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#4501 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 18:18

Oh nice, a dummy mistake introduced as a cover-up for the true one. How original... :drunk:


Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.

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#4502 as65p

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 18:22

Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.


Mistakes are no issue at all, I think. Then lengths some go to cover them up, OTOH... wow.

#4503 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 18:58

Try to figure why Massa has been able to finish in front of Alonso sometimes, in Australia, for example. Despite obviously inferior speed on the day. Precisely because Ferrari didn't do there what was common between Ham and Kova at McLaren.

What you're in fact propagating is a predetermined 1-2 situation in which there wouldn't ever be the need for race specific teamorders on the radio, because it would have been made clear to all participants before the race how to behave.

Fair racing, yeah right...

The McLaren drivers were in a 1-2 situation in Turkey yet were allowed to race. Fair racing - simple. My point about Kova and Hamilton still stands from my previous post, no need to elaborate on that. What we do know however, is that Ferrari definitely don't employ fair racing in their team and this upsets their own fans (especially Massa supporters), the general fan base of the sport and even worse brings the sport into disrepute. This never happened at McLaren when Kova was there.

With regards to Alonso, well I don't believe that he can win the WDC without full team backing. Yet does winning it by having your team back you at the cost of hindering your team mate since the middle of the season really mean you deserved it? Arguably not. But I'll let you make your own mind up on that.

#4504 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:03

Mistakes are no issue at all, I think. Then lengths some go to cover them up, OTOH... wow.


Not at all. I've admited worse blunders than would be to make a mistake adding a couple of numbers. But with all this fireworks about a nonissue you shift attention from the original discusssion, perhaps a discussion you are trying to avoid, which was that even with team orders and favoritism Massa has been outperforming Alonso lately. That's a tatic I wouldn't use since I don't think it's an honest one but hey, you are an Alonso fan and you probably don't pay too much attention to small things such as honesty and fairness.

#4505 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:06

How should I know about the 2nd option as I never claimed such? All I can tell you is that the first, i.e. deducting from a single documented case of team orders that Massa is constantly screwed by the team, is not bolstered by any further facts we know of.

Yet the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias. I believe extrapolating in this way is pretty logical and acceptable. In any case there is more feeling and evidence towards the favoritism claims than against them. Anyway you know what I feel, I believe the team are now fully behind Alonso. What do you think? Favoritism or equality?

Actually the very issue of Massa needing to be ordered aside over the radio indicates that it was the first time this season any favouritism took place.

Absolute load of rubbish.

#4506 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:11

You not understanding me... It's obvious that Ferrari are favouring Alonso in the sense that should Massa find himself ahead of Alonso he should move over. That's pretty evident if we go by Germany. What the other guy is saying is that Ferrari are hindering Massa, and I've only seen it happening once and that was Germany... So he must be implying that they are compromising his setups because I haven't seen evidence of them hindering Massa except that one instance. Can you mention another or can he?

And you are not understanding me. What I stated was that if Ferrari favor Alonso then by definition they will give him the most favorable options and backing. Furthermore that means Massa is getting lesser backing and thus is hindered. By hindered I mean not being given equal support. Which is pretty obvious really.

#4507 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:13

The only mistake I made was to assume I was having a decent conversation about their relative performances. On my calculations I inverted the results from germany and didn't even mentioned it because I thought it was so obvious that it wasn't worth mentioning. And I admit, I was wrong for thinking we were having a decent and honest conversation. That was my mistake.

I thought so as well, and took that for granted when reading your original post in question. Seems others feel Alonso deserved those points ;) .

Edited by syph0nJZ05, 01 September 2010 - 19:13.


#4508 Ferrari2183

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:24

Yet the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias. I believe extrapolating in this way is pretty logical and acceptable. In any case there is more feeling and evidence towards the favoritism claims than against them. Anyway you know what I feel, I believe the team are now fully behind Alonso. What do you think? Favoritism or equality?


Logical and acceptable without evidence? Makes alot of sense to me... Instead of making all these unsubstantiated claims why don't you just say that you hate Alonso and Ferrari and you wish the FIA just hand the constructors title to Mclaren and Hamilton and Button can flip a coin to see who takes home the drivers title. And btw nobody is denying that Alonso is being favoured in terms of results. What you are doing, is implying that they are compromising Massa's setup and what not by your behind the scenes bias. So why don't you prove it? I haven't seen anything that suggest that.

Absolute load of rubbish.

You are the one talking smack here... Please provide me with some of what you are smoking. I also want to go to fantasy land.


#4509 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:34

Logical and acceptable without evidence? Makes alot of sense to me... Instead of making all these unsubstantiated claims why don't you just say that you hate Alonso and Ferrari and you wish the FIA just hand the constructors title to Mclaren and Hamilton and Button can flip a coin to see who takes home the drivers title.

Find a dictionary and look up the word extrapolating.

And btw nobody is denying that Alonso is being favoured in terms of results. What you are doing, is implying that they are compromising Massa's setup and what not by your behind the scenes bias. So why don't you prove it? I haven't seen anything that suggest that.

Firstly I have already explained this to you: http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4568280 . And secondly surely it is obvious that if a team puts all its support behind one driver by favoring that driver "in terms of results" (as you put it) then the other driver will miss out on some team backing that he should be entitled to. In the extreme this can manifest itself as an on track team order like we saw in Germany.

You are the one talking smack here... Please provide me with some of what you are smoking. I also want to go to fantasy land.

What have I said that is so crazy. Or is it that I have not kissed the feet or your precious Alonso?


#4510 as65p

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:51

That's a tatic I wouldn't use since I don't think it's an honest one but hey, you are an Alonso fan and you probably don't pay too much attention to small things such as honesty and fairness.


What a nice self-defeating sentence you created there, claiming the high ground in the first part only to switch to childish personal insults against a whole group of people in the second part. Impressive work!

Not to speak of the claim that Massa outperforms Alonso lately - suggesting it's some kind of trend when in reality it only happened over one single weekend.

Mr. Honest, eh? Now go one and tell us what you really meant by "lately" and how it's only all those Alonso fans, all of them, that can't get the true meaning of your "honest" observations. :p



#4511 Ferrari2183

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 20:00

Find a dictionary and look up the word extrapolating.


I know exactly what it means. I think you should look it up because at the end of it all extrapolation is just conjecture.

Firstly I have already explained this to you: http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4568280 . And secondly surely it is obvious that if a team puts all its support behind one driver by favoring that driver "in terms of results" (as you put it) then the other driver will miss out on some team backing that he should be entitled to. In the extreme this can manifest itself as an on track team order like we saw in Germany.


All you keep saying is that Ferrari are hindering Massa. Now I wanna know in what way? Setup? Updates? Because he has had all those... Or has Alonso taken all the best engineers to his side of the garage? Again no evidence of that... I want you to tell me how exactly Ferrari have been hindering Massa since you believe it has been happening before Germany...

What have I said that is so crazy. Or is it that I have not kissed the feet or your precious Alonso?

If you had said my precious Ferrari, then yes.;) And what you have said is crazy because it is unsubstantiated.

#4512 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 21:28

I know exactly what it means...extrapolation is just conjecture.

Correct :) , well done, gold star. In my other post I said "the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias". That is me extrapolating. I am saying that since Ferrari have used public team orders on the track then surely they are favoring Alonso behind the scenes as well (maybe giving him better qualifying slots, the better pit-stop times etc). Seems reasonable doesn't it?

All you keep saying is that Ferrari are hindering Massa. Now I wanna know in what way? Setup? Updates? Because he has had all those... Or has Alonso taken all the best engineers to his side of the garage? Again no evidence of that... I want you to tell me how exactly Ferrari have been hindering Massa since you believe it has been happening before Germany...

Explained in multiple posts previously and briefly above. And just to clarify I think some of the top Ferrari officials have preferred Alonso for the entire season (something I cannot back up) but I believe that there was a substantial shift in support for Alonso circa Germany, hence the team orders.


#4513 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 21:55

What a nice self-defeating sentence you created there, claiming the high ground in the first part only to switch to childish personal insults against a whole group of people in the second part. Impressive work!


It was not my intention to insult you and please if you feel this way folow your own advice and report me. There's a logic to what I said. A very strong argument can be made for Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid nowdays. Just not to go to far, a couple of pages back an excerpt of his blog was posted in which he burps this pearl; "I could have done without going off the track, but it did not make a great difference". See what he did there with these two very dishonest phrases ? If you can't see it please let me know and I'll explain it to you. On a second tought I'll do it anyways. He minimized his own mistake by saying 3 points is nothing to talk about. That's utter bs in a tight championship like this one. That's one of the mildest displays of his character but I didn't want to go far to pick an example. If that and his last three and a half years of shenanigans don't bother or you can't recognize them then I'm right in my observations.

Not to speak of the claim that Massa outperforms Alonso lately - suggesting it's some kind of trend when in reality it only happened over one single weekend.

I think the ship of meaningfull discussion has sailed but I'll try again. Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)

Mr. Honest, eh? Now go one and tell us what you really meant by "lately" and how it's only all those Alonso fans, all of them, that can't get the true meaning of your "honest" observations. :p

Now you are just confused but I'm going to try and help you out here. First of I said Alonso fans don't care a great deal for honesty, at the very least when picking a driver to support. Didnt say anything about the honesty of my observations. Now for the 'only Alonso fans' part. Saying all Alonso fans are stupid(I'm not saying it's true, it's just an example to help you understand) is not the same thing to say all the stupid people are Alonso fans.

Edited by cardin, 01 September 2010 - 21:56.


#4514 as65p

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:31

It was not my intention to insult you and please if you feel this way folow your own advice and report me. There's a logic to what I said. A very strong argument can be made for Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid nowdays. Just not to go to far, a couple of pages back an excerpt of his blog was posted in which he burps this pearl; "I could have done without going off the track, but it did not make a great difference". See what he did there with these two very dishonest phrases ? If you can't see it please let me know and I'll explain it to you. On a second tought I'll do it anyways. He minimized his own mistake by saying 3 points is nothing to talk about. That's utter bs in a tight championship like this one. That's one of the mildest displays of his character but I didn't want to go far to pick an example. If that and his last three and a half years of shenanigans don't bother or you can't recognize them then I'm right in my observations.


I think the ship of meaningfull discussion has sailed but I'll try again. Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)


Now you are just confused but I'm going to try and help you out here. First of I said Alonso fans don't care a great deal for honesty, at the very least when picking a driver to support. Didnt say anything about the honesty of my observations. Now for the 'only Alonso fans' part. Saying all Alonso fans are stupid(I'm not saying it's true, it's just an example to help you understand) is not the same thing to say all the stupid people are Alonso fans.


That's fine, get some relief, let it all out! :lol: So the underlined is your claim not only to Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid, but also everyone who supports him displaying serious character flaws? And everyone who doesn't agree with you is proof that you're right? :drunk:

Hmm, I think we've really achieved something with our neat little conversation: I've hardly seen a more convincing display of a posters mindset than the above. :up:

Edited by as65p, 01 September 2010 - 22:31.


#4515 selespeed

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:46

Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)



http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

#4516 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:55

That's fine, get some relief, let it all out! :lol: So the underlined is your claim not only to Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid, but also everyone who supports him displaying serious character flaws? And everyone who doesn't agree with you is proof that you're right? :drunk:

Hmm, I think we've really achieved something with our neat little conversation: I've hardly seen a more convincing display of a posters mindset than the above. :up:

Earlier this year he gave an interview, and it was published here in the Autosport website, congratulating himself for having colaborated with the FIA on the Ferrari stolen info afair. What was the extent of his colaboration ? After getting imunity to testify he corfirmed he exchanged emails with Pedro taking advantage of this info. Information he know it was stolen. It was a pitty Mosley was only after Ron. Does that bother you a little ? There's a lot more than that but I guess that should be enough.

Edited by cardin, 01 September 2010 - 22:56.


#4517 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:06

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded


I'm sure you're trying to make point but sorry, I didn't get it.

#4518 saudoso

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:14

I'm sure you're trying to make point but sorry, I didn't get it.

Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.

Guessed right? :stoned:

#4519 cardin

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:20

Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.

Guessed right? :stoned:

Ahhh !!! It makes sense now.


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#4520 as65p

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:34

Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.

Guessed right? :stoned:


:lol: :up:

Dunno about right, but that's certainly how cardin would have judged that little incident had it been Alonso. :)

#4521 Slartibartfast

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:43

Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.

Guessed right? :stoned:

I thought he did that so that he could avoid starting with a wheel on the white line...

#4522 sionas

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:09

I thought he did that so that he could avoid starting with a wheel on the white line...

Let me start by saying that i am Alonso fan. I think he is/was one of the most talented and smart personality of the grid. However, he is not the Alonso of '05 and '06. Probably the reasons for that are:
1. He has accomplished in a relatively short period of time almost everything he wanted. Something that other drivers will probably will never have the opportunity even though talented (ie Kubica).
2. He got over-confident of his abilities and thinks that wins will come naturally. He does not have the fire that we show in '05 and '06
3. F1 nowdays burns drivers a lot faster than the part. He realized that through FIA and Stuarts manipulations ability and a fast car are not enough to take the title. He started recognizing that things are face, so why bother.

#4523 aditya-now

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:49

Let me start by saying that i am Alonso fan. I think he is/was one of the most talented and smart personality of the grid. However, he is not the Alonso of '05 and '06. Probably the reasons for that are:
1. He has accomplished in a relatively short period of time almost everything he wanted. Something that other drivers will probably will never have the opportunity even though talented (ie Kubica).
2. He got over-confident of his abilities and thinks that wins will come naturally. He does not have the fire that we show in '05 and '06
3. F1 nowdays burns drivers a lot faster than the part. He realized that through FIA and Stuarts manipulations ability and a fast car are not enough to take the title. He started recognizing that things are face, so why bother.


Welcome to the forum, Sionas!

2. is possible, although Fernando still shows excellent races. What surprises me is the mistake rate that started in 2008. We all thought back then that he was overdriving the Renault. Now at Ferrari the whole thing continues. At 2007 at McLaren he was spotless bar one mistake, but the year seems to have really left its marks psychologically.

"He's a very talented driver. I think he has surprised us by his calmness, considering he is from Spain."
Ron Dennis - McLaren team principal, on Fernando Alonso.

This quote does not seem to be entirely true anymore nowadays. What a pity, I still like him the most of today´s drivers.


#4524 cardin

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:11

:lol: :up:

Dunno about right, but that's certainly how cardin would have judged that little incident had it been Alonso. :)

Nah. You know I'm compleatelly unbiased when it comes to Alonso. :) But seriously, I liked the guy, a lot. Still think he was fantastic in 2005-06 and was extremelly happy he helped retire MS. Then Hamilton happened in his life and I don't think he'll ever recover. Still think if he hadn't become unhinged he would have been champion in 2007, but his sense of entitlement got in the way and the rest is history. This year he's just a shadow, still shows some flashes of his enourmous talent but you can feel he's not all there. So, if I'm too harsh judging him it's, in no small measure, because I was very disapointed with him.

#4525 Rinehart

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:20

Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships' and ever since then over the next 3.5 seasons he's been between average and good, but never shown the sort of consistent brilliance that would suggest he will one day be regarded amongst the greats - as was the expectation earlier in his career. His star has definately fallen somewhat in recent times as has his reputation as a person.

#4526 moorsey

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:45

Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships' and ever since then over the next 3.5 seasons he's been between average and good, but never shown the sort of consistent brilliance that would suggest he will one day be regarded amongst the greats - as was the expectation earlier in his career. His star has definately fallen somewhat in recent times as has his reputation as a person.


Very very good post.

#4527 gaston_foix

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:18

Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships' and ever since then over the next 3.5 seasons he's been between average and good, but never shown the sort of consistent brilliance that would suggest he will one day be regarded amongst the greats - as was the expectation earlier in his career. His star has definately fallen somewhat in recent times as has his reputation as a person.


2 'Michelin Championships' :rotfl: What a stupid post. Keep it up...

#4528 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:37

Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships'

As opposed to a 'double diffuser' championship or a 'flexible wing' one etc etc. It would be easy to play down pretty much any championship of recent years with that sort of statement. Alonso did a storming job in those years and it was far from plain sailing.

I also don't agree that his star has taken a long slow 3.5 year dive. 2007 he drove really very well and I believe that he could have taken the championship if the environment he was working in had been more positive (although I also believe he was at fault for it being negative) and I agree that this year he is failing miserably to live up to the expectation we had for him. The team orders shenanigans has been a terrible blow to his reputation, but even last year he was still being regularly hailed in the paddock as the most complete driver on the grid, this despite Singapore '08.

#4529 as65p

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:47

I agree that this year he is failing miserably to live up to the expectation we had for him. The team orders shenanigans has been a terrible blow to his reputation, but even last year he was still being regularly hailed in the paddock as the most complete driver on the grid, this despite Singapore '08.


Yep, he's going through a pretty rough patch right now. The questions are will he recover, and when?

Obviously his detractors are having a hell of a time right now, which is fair enough. OTOH he isn't really doing any worse than Hamilton at the end of 2007 and at times in 2008, or Räikönnen in 2008. Will be interesting which of those two he emulates from here on...  ;)

#4530 Headspin

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:50

Earlier this year he gave an interview, and it was published here in the Autosport website, congratulating himself for having colaborated with the FIA on the Ferrari stolen info afair. What was the extent of his colaboration ? After getting imunity to testify he corfirmed he exchanged emails with Pedro taking advantage of this info. Information he know it was stolen. It was a pitty Mosley was only after Ron. Does that bother you a little ? There's a lot more than that but I guess that should be enough.


Please tell you're kidding with this?

#4531 Gareth

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:53

It's a rough patch compared to 05 and 06. Similarly most of Hamilton's career has been a rough patch (mistake wise) if compared to his first 9 races in F1.

I think that kind of consistency in F1 is just utterly incredibly difficult to obtain. Kudos to Alonso for doing it for 2 full seasons. It's hardly a disaster when he's not repeating it.

Although he's made errors this year, I wouldn't say he's made significantly more than many others. Kubica (hailed as the most consistent this season) has had errors in each of the last 2 races that have cost him. Webber's Australian and Valencian GPs were disasterous. Hamilton's made some blunders in qualy (Oz and Malaysia) and in the race (Spa and Valencia).

I really think Alonso's only driven badly this season if you expect 05/06 driving as the minimum from him. I think he's been pretty decent this year. He's not been the best guy out there IMO but he's not that far off.

#4532 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:59

I think that's the problem though Gareth (the close but still too far away performance). The mistakes he has made this year have hit hard because the car has been capable of fighting for podiums most of the year (no, I appreciate not at all races but...). Tony Dodgins did an article earlier this year in which he added up all the 'lost' points. It was fanboyish and unbalanced, I agree, but he was making an important point that this was a driver and team whose points tally did not reflect what they were truly capable of.

It's a case you make for either Red Bull driver too if you like, but I think nobody expects this sort of inconsistency from Alonso, which is testament to our high expectations of him.

#4533 as65p

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 10:01

It's a rough patch compared to 05 and 06. Similarly most of Hamilton's career has been a rough patch (mistake wise) if compared to his first 9 races in F1.

I think that kind of consistency in F1 is just utterly incredibly difficult to obtain. Kudos to Alonso for doing it for 2 full seasons. It's hardly a disaster when he's not repeating it.

Although he's made errors this year, I wouldn't say he's made significantly more than many others. Kubica (hailed as the most consistent this season) has had errors in each of the last 2 races that have cost him. Webber's Australian and Valencian GPs were disasterous. Hamilton's made some blunders in qualy (Oz and Malaysia) and in the race (Spa and Valencia).

I really think Alonso's only driven badly this season if you expect 05/06 driving as the minimum from him. I think he's been pretty decent this year. He's not been the best guy out there IMO but he's not that far off.


Well, kind words!

But you touched it, I think indeed there is more expected of him than he was able to show lately - not speed wise, but on all other counts, consistency, making your own luck, it's just not working lately. It's not all his fault, but the fact is, things will only get more rough if he isn't able to turn the tide somehow, especially at Ferrari.


#4534 gaston_foix

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 10:01

I think that's the problem though Gareth (the close but still too far away performance). The mistakes he has made this year have hit hard because the car has been capable of fighting for podiums most of the year (no, I appreciate not at all races but...). Tony Dodgins did an article earlier this year in which he added up all the 'lost' points. It was fanboyish and unbalanced, I agree, but he was making an important point that this was a driver and team whose points tally did not reflect what they were truly capable of.

It's a case you make for either Red Bull driver too if you like, but I think nobody expects this sort of inconsistency from Alonso, which is testament to our high expectations of him.

Could not agree more :up:

#4535 Rinehart

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:02

2 'Michelin Championships' :rotfl: What a stupid post. Keep it up...


Sorry but I think his Championship in 2005 with a Michelin - Renault colluded car, no 1 status ovrer Fisi and against a fast but fragile McLaren was possibly one of the easiest of Championships ever won. Fair enough he still one it, but the quality of it in terms of guaging Alonso's stock, surely has to be considered? Let's give him 2006 - fair play.

But anyway my point is that by the end of 2006 he was a double world champion and being lauded as the best of his generation and expected to go on to be a GREAT. We're talking Senna, Stewart, triple Championship plus territory here.

By all means dispute the value of his 2005 Championship, but can you honestly dispute that he is being regarded now, universally, as highly as he was in 2006? Or am I right, his stock HAS fallen? Its just an observation. I'm sure his biggest fans will say he is just as good - but I'm not asking what some people think, I'm asking what the overall view is.

#4536 Smile17

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:18

Sorry but I think his Championship in 2005 with a Michelin - Renault colluded car, no 1 status ovrer Fisi and against a fast but fragile McLaren was possibly one of the easiest of Championships ever won. Fair enough he still one it, but the quality of it in terms of guaging Alonso's stock, surely has to be considered? Let's give him 2006 - fair play.

But anyway my point is that by the end of 2006 he was a double world champion and being lauded as the best of his generation and expected to go on to be a GREAT. We're talking Senna, Stewart, triple Championship plus territory here.

By all means dispute the value of his 2005 Championship, but can you honestly dispute that he is being regarded now, universally, as highly as he was in 2006? Or am I right, his stock HAS fallen? Its just an observation. I'm sure his biggest fans will say he is just as good - but I'm not asking what some people think, I'm asking what the overall view is.


The overall view? I'm not his fan, but I think he's even better now than he was in 05/06. And that's not a surprise at all.
I can't believe that some people are so obsessed with FA that they always try to make him look average. If you want it or not, Fernando is one of the greatest riders already.
And that status will only grow when/if he wins another worldtitle. The guy has nothing to proof.

I'm not impressed of what he did in 05/06, but the following years. Oh and I think his stock now is much more than it was in 06, no?

#4537 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:27

Oh and I think his stock now is much more than it was in 06, no?

No.

For reasons already given.

But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.

#4538 Smile17

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:36

No.

For reasons already given.


What I mean is...isn't he still the most wanted driver and the most expensive one? Wish it wasn't, but I can't deny it.

#4539 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:36

He dont have to prove anything to me. Alonso, together with Schumacher, remains the best F1 driver on the grid. The way he shades Massa in terms of laptimes is as brutal a slaughter ive ever seen.

Hes been robbed a few times, harsly and unjustly punished, and suffered from a pitwall wich remains clueless most of the time.

When Lewis Hamilton crashed out on the last lap of Monza 2009 when he was being beaten by Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello, Martin Withhindsightmarsh, said 'thats why we love him, he never gives up.' Well the same goes for Alonso. He has two world titles that back up the support.

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#4540 Gareth

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:37

But anyway my point is that by the end of 2006 he was a double world champion and being lauded as the best of his generation and expected to go on to be a GREAT. We're talking Senna, Stewart, triple Championship plus territory here.

No one ever agrees on top [X] lists of F1 drivers but 10 years after his career ends I reckon that if you were composing a top 10 (or even a top 5) F1 drivers ever and put Alonso in there no one (reasonable) would complain that you were being silly (even if they disagreed).

I reckon Alonso will be seen as a great. 3 WDC+ is a very exclusive club and I think you'd have to be a very brave man to bet on the Ferrari/Alonso combination not picking up at least one in the next 5 years.

#4541 simplyfast

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:45

It's a rough patch compared to 05 and 06. Similarly most of Hamilton's career has been a rough patch (mistake wise) if compared to his first 9 races in F1.

I think that kind of consistency in F1 is just utterly incredibly difficult to obtain. Kudos to Alonso for doing it for 2 full seasons. It's hardly a disaster when he's not repeating it.

Although he's made errors this year, I wouldn't say he's made significantly more than many others. Kubica (hailed as the most consistent this season) has had errors in each of the last 2 races that have cost him. Webber's Australian and Valencian GPs were disasterous. Hamilton's made some blunders in qualy (Oz and Malaysia) and in the race (Spa and Valencia).

I really think Alonso's only driven badly this season if you expect 05/06 driving as the minimum from him. I think he's been pretty decent this year. He's not been the best guy out there IMO but he's not that far off.


Oh come do on really you think mistakes in two races is the same as a total that is almost a mistake in every other race so far this season?
The fact remains with perhaps the exception of wunderblunder he has had the most mistakes of any of the leading drivers this year and by a long way.

#4542 Gareth

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:52

Oh come do on really you think mistakes in two races is the same as a total that is almost a mistake in every other race so far this season?

I didn't say the same, I said not significantly more. There's also Canada for Kubica where his entry to the pits was an error. There are perhaps more, too. I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. For Alonso a quick think gets me to about 5.

So if 3 errors is the best of this season (Kubica) and Alonso's at 5 then I think Alonso isn't making significantly more errors than anyone else this season. Has he made more? Yes. Is he waaaay worse than the other contenders bar Vettel? IMO no.

#4543 simplyfast

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:12

I didn't say the same, I said not significantly more. There's also Canada for Kubica where his entry to the pits was an error. There are perhaps more, too. I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. For Alonso a quick think gets me to about 5.

So if 3 errors is the best of this season (Kubica) and Alonso's at 5 then I think Alonso isn't making significantly more errors than anyone else this season. Has he made more? Yes. Is he waaaay worse than the other contenders bar Vettel? IMO no.


sorry as others pointed out in other places on this board Alonso has made atlest 6-7 (depending on who you listen to) mistakes this year.
So 3 to lets be nice and say 6 in Kubica's favour is in my opinion twice as many or far too many more than a non title contender.
Who out of the contenders has made anywhere as near as many unforced errors as that apart from Vettel?
dont forget the contenders are Hamilton, Webber, Vettel Jenson and Alonso.

I am not condeming for errors after all if you never make a mistake it more than likely says, you are not trying (unless your car is much better than all the other cars out there). The problem comes from so many that are so costly and yet were unforced errors.

#4544 Gareth

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:24

Completely off the top of my head:

Hamilton: failure to get into Q3 in Australia; spin in Malaysia qualy; overtaking the SC in Valencia; off track excursion in Spa.

Button: failure to get into Q3 at Silverstone; same for Hungary; off track excursion at Shanghai; failure to get out of Q2 Malaysia.

Webber: Bahrain Q3; first collision with Hamilton in Australia; second collision with Hamilton in Australia; losing so many places at the start of Valencia; collision with Heikki in Valencia.

Vettel: collision in Turkey; start at GB; start at Germany; SC in Hungary; collision in Belgium.

Alonso: white line in Oz; jump start in China; FP3 in Monaco; failure to get into Q3 in Turkey; overtaking Kubica in GB; spinning out in Belgium.

Looking at that, I don't think Alonso is significantly worse on this score than the other WDC contenders.

#4545 Rinehart

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:28

No.

For reasons already given.

But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.


Couldn't agree more.

#4546 cardin

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:34

Please tell you're kidding with this?

It's no joke.

#4547 Johnrambo

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:40

The way he shades Massa in terms of laptimes is as brutal a slaughter ive ever seen.


You haven't seen Hamilton vs. Kovalainen. Rosberg vs. Schumacher. Räikkönen vs. Badoer/Fisichella/Montoya. Alonso has been slightly faster than Massa that's all. Not even near slaughter. And that's with FA being the undisputed #1 driver at Ferrari + having been gifted a 50% of his wins this season. And on the ultimate drivers track being soundly thrashed by the #2 driver of Ferrari.

Hes been robbed a few times, harsly and unjustly punished, and suffered from a pitwall wich remains clueless most of the time.


Unbelievable. FA is making mistake after mistake and Ferrari rewards him by ordering Massa to gift him victory.

#4548 cardin

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:50

No.

For reasons already given.

But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.

The question is why is he doing this many mistakes ? I think it's a combination many of factors, none of them very easy to overcome.

#4549 kissTheApex

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:52

Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.

Let us not generalize. There are many Alonso fans out there (including this one) that believes Alonso is having a year full of .. for lack of a better term "stupid" mistakes. He has not yet lived up to my expectations of him coming in to this season.

#4550 abc

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:54

The way he shades Massa in terms of laptimes is as brutal a slaughter ive ever seen.

Oh come on
0,5 sec. is a lot but still not a murder and it happened exactly 4 times this year (Aus, Bar, Sil, Hoc), so Alonso killed Massa is as true as saying Massa beat Alonso in all Q.

Out of those races Massa decreased gap significantly on Sunday in Hoc and Sil, for Aus and Bar we have no data to compare, (Massa spent race behind other cars), although in Aus its probable that Massa was nowhere and what more he was shite in China race, too. Thats about it, 4Q and 3races where the differnce was more than marginal.