127 replies to this topic

[john ruston]

Doug-You were very lucky!
I will go with your first post still do not understand Stuarts post as actual reports state that the extra plod surrounding him after he was stopped were driving in a dangerous manner to get to the parked villain who had given himself up .
Think its enough of this Hamilton stuff on here as there are two distinct camps and they will never agree or even understand the others point of view.

Its better left to the high level of discussion on racing comments than on here and get back to original topic of drivers being pulled by plod.

Never thought Australia could turn itself into a place populated by boring people but it seems its going that way.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by john ruston
.....Never thought Australia could turn itself into a place populated by boring people but it seems its going that way.

And it makes life so uncomfortable for rational and sensible people...

Let me remind you that it's 1000kms across NSW if you're using the main Brisbane-Melbourne road, the Newell Highway. Several months ago they dropped the speed limit on this road, which traverses endless plains for most of its route, from 110 to 100kmh.

Just how this would help in the struggle against the biggest killer on this particular road, fatigue, escaped me completely. They added an hour to the crossing of NSW, so what were they to expect?

Within a few months there were some horrific crashes. Whether they would have happened with or without that limit, who knows, but they happened and the answer was to threaten to drop the limit to 90kmh.

We've had decades of this treatment. Decades of drumming it into the populace that 'speed kills' and decades of heavy emphasis in enforcement of such limits, decades of dumbing down the motoring public.

So what's the result? A whole race of people who can't drive! Why should they learn? They can't and don't drive fast, do they? They can't get into trouble then, can they? And a race of young ones who decry the thought of anyone 'speeding', who will tell you day and night it's lethal. But who, on some occasions, drive at whatever speed they like and tell you they did it safely.

Edited by Ray Bell, 03 April 2010 - 20:49.

[Paul Parker]

From what I can see from the comments of others plus my own experience of driving across large swathes of America I believe that English speaking nations seem to have a predeliction for repressive bureaucracy and the control freakery that so defines a 'Labour' mindset.

Ironically despite this vindictive modus operandi and burgeoning punitive legislation such societies are frequently characterised by increasing social anarchy and a high level of street crime together with alcohol and drug fuelled violence. British motorists are perhaps the biggest single adult taxpayer/voting class in their country yet they are treated with utter contempt and a total lack of respect. How many hundreds of billions have disappeared into the Treasury these last 13 years and just look at the state of our roads, indeed most of our transport infrastructure. What have they done with this money?

Meanwhile I had better not describe motoring around SW1 and around various parts of the country during the late 1960s/early 70s in assorted Aston Martins, Ferraris, Cobras, Maseratis, Jaguars, Lamborghinis, GT40, a Corvette powered Alvis courtesy of Wood & Pickett and more. Of course as I noted in my earlier post this type of driving on public roads is not desirable in absolute terms but the alternative is what we have now. Persons who not only do not understand how to drive properly at any speed, fail to look more than 30 feet in front of their bonnet, brake any number of times approaching and in a corner, often when no braking is necessary and generally are unsware of their surroundings either in the immediate vicinity but also beyond the car in front. The latter failing is the prime reason for most rear end shunts, especially on motorways where these fools often connect with the back of a mass accident from way back.

I do occasional demonstration driving for 'customers' in what used to be termed fast cars and the less said about some drivers (although not all thankfully and incidentally women make much better pupils than men) the better. This is not their fault it is the direct result of the attitudes (sic) prevalent in latter day official thinking and the inculcation of supermarket trolley driving tests. I believe this is all part of the agenda to make everybody mediocre and less likely to think for themselves and as with everything these days there are malevolent political motives at work to create fear, paranoia and the demonisation of (usually) males in general.

Apologies for the polemic.

[Giraffe]

I meet enough numpys & muppets in day to day life; I don't expect them to behave any differently behind the wheel of car, and this proves to be the case on the whole.

[Frank S]

Yellow-shirted subject, only by a long stretch a "racing driver", had - according to GPS - exceeded the public highway's 65MPH speed limit by nearly 80MPH for several minutes just prior to this scenario's taking place.




A more sedate pace the other direction.

[Gary Davies]

And a race of young ones who decry the thought of anyone 'speeding', who will tell you day and night it's lethal.

Exactly! It seems to me we have arrived at a sad state here in which the majority of people define speeding as exceeding a given speed limit. Don't worry about how idiotic the particular limit is, or the traffic density, weather conditions, road surface and condition, the driver's competence, state of mind or fatigue level. Or the type of vehicle.

Certainly you can't build all these factors into a speed detection device but the key thing is that years of the authorities banging home the message of "Obey the speed limit and you'll be right mate" has resulted in a driving population lacking critical judgement. The thought that speeding might actually be defined as travelling at a speed which is unsafe after factoring in all the circumstances which bear on safety will be a mystery to them. Actually thinking about driving is, largely, a lost art.

[stuartbrs]

Perhaps Ive been misunderstood... Anyone that has been to Albert Park knows that during Grand Prix weekend it is literally surrounded by Police.. The road laws are common knowledge.. there have been horrific tragic accidents involving young people and the media are all over "hooning" at the moment and particulalry young drivers... I dont know why people are suprised Hamilton firstly got caught, and secondly got his car impounded ( its the law )... What disappoints me, is that it gives ammunition to those that want Motorsports banned/sanitised/cut back, and reinforces the ( incorrect ) assumtion that anyone that likes motorsport is a beer swilling mullett wearing bogan danger to other road users..

I agree the laws are draconian, especially in Victoria.. we are lucky here so far in Tasmania that we still have 110KmH Highways and dont have a policeman behind every tree ( just every other tree ).. and that we still have events like Targa Tasmania..

[David Shaw]

Perhaps Ive been misunderstood... Anyone that has been to Albert Park knows that during Grand Prix weekend it is literally surrounded by Police.. The road laws are common knowledge.. there have been horrific tragic accidents involving young people and the media are all over "hooning" at the moment and particulalry young drivers... I dont know why people are suprised Hamilton firstly got caught, and secondly got his car impounded ( its the law )... What disappoints me, is that it gives ammunition to those that want Motorsports banned/sanitised/cut back, and reinforces the ( incorrect ) assumtion that anyone that likes motorsport is a beer swilling mullett wearing bogan danger to other road users..

Unfortunately it does give ammunition to the ignorant.

The problem is the young d!ckheads who think nothing of driving at 130kph in a 60kph zone with a carful of mates, and don't know how to keep a car under control. There have been some horrific accidents here, and the solution for the authorities is to fine you for doing 107kph on a perfectly safe 100kph freeway, and then slap the wrist of a hoon that threatens the lives of anyone in the vicinity.

[stevewf1]

I think it was CS spray, IIRC, Gachot said that it was legal in Belgium!

I don't know about "CS spray" (not really sure what that is, technically), but here in the USA, mace and pepper spray are legal. You can even get pepper spray at places like Wal-Mart.

Now, going around and spraying that stuff in other people's faces is another story...

[Chezrome]

In 1983 Jan Lammers and his Renault Alpine made the news in Holland when being chased by the police for about an hour or so. Having been stopped for speeding many times before, Jan finally decided enough was enough when once again a police car tried to stop him. He raced away and for the next hour or so managed to lose all chasing cars, bikes and a helicopter, and avoid a road block that was organized later on. Ultimately he gave up himself and got away with it more or less as the the judge decided he had been penalized quite substantially by all the bad publicity that the chase generate (much of which was exaggerated), so the fine and penalty given were not too bad. I remember once reading part of the verdict (a big file given the length of the chase!) and one police biker stating that he was "doing about 200 km/h, but the Alpine still continued to pull away".

Andy Wallace will remember the time when Jan demonstrated - in the US on some freeway - how he could spin a car 180 degrees and continue driving backwards at speed. Problem was a copper saw it too... Toine Hezemans, meanwhile, once drove his rental car into a hotel lobby in Barcelona to impress his girlfriend, while Hans Stuck found it funny to drop his mini bar from the hotel window onto the rental car of his team mate. The mini bar went straight through the car.

I knew that story... but according to me, Lammers did not give himself up... but lost controll of the car close to his home.

By the way, the police-officers were very, very angry with him... and Jan Lammers was quite ashamed in the months after the incident.

[Sharman]

I made all the comments about the speed limits in Australia on another thread a few months ago long before Hamilton spun his wheels. I remarked at the time that a nation which, in all other walks of life, prides itself on its bloodymindedness, behaves like a bunch of wimps on the road. They buy enormous engined cars with 3/400 bhp and then mimse along at 60 mph when the road is dead straight as far and beyond as the eye can see. I had a little run along the the Great Ocean Road and turned off across country before reaching the end of it. This was the Monday after the Moto GP and I was driving a borrowed Mitsubishi something or other with a very understressed V8. I enjoyed a dice with a bunch of bikers over 70 or 80 miles and eventually stopped in a small town to find an hotel. The bikers stopped too and one of them came over to say how much he appreciated seeing a most unlikely vehicle being slid around with such energy, and then grinned and said "I might have known you weren't Australian", that must say something about attitudes in Oz.

Edited by Sharman, 05 April 2010 - 07:38.

[Gatmo]

Yellow-shirted subject, only by a long stretch a "racing driver", had - according to GPS - exceeded the public highway's 65MPH speed limit by nearly 80MPH for several minutes just prior to this scenario's taking place.




A more sedate pace the other direction.

Poor old Ken Bates....................

[Giraffe]

Poor old Ken Bates....................

And the cop looks more like a landscape gardener.

[Dipster]

Sorry - disagree entirely. Exuberance is to be applauded, or if it's judged excessive then just give the boy a bollocking before sending him on his way. All this stuff about civil and - far worse - corporate responsibility over-riding character just sticks in my craw. The thin-end of the wedge was when Formula 1 drivers commonly began playing woolly-ball - tennis - instead of parking hire cars in swimming pools, and painting rivals' road car windows and windscreens black. Bah, humbug. On the other hand I do take an extremely dim view of excessive alcohol consumption. Ah well...different strokes...

DCN

Reading this lot makes me realise that I am beginning to despair that driving on the road in Europe and similar civilised lands will ever be allowed to be fun again. Many years ago, as a youngster, driving was fun. Yes Doug, we could be exuberent. No such thing as 70 limits, Gatsos etc.. Yes, speed can be very dangerous. But only inappropriate speed. I was recently living in a country where I would often see 200 kph on open, straight roads in a Beemer 7 series. Dangerous? No way. But just last night 2 idiots roared past my suburban house racing at 80kph. That was dangerous. I would happily wield the Radar gun myself!

So it seems our Oz cousins seem to have gone the way of the UK in being a Health and Safety obsessed nanny state. Mind you the last time I was in the Northern Territory there was still no speed limit outside towns. So maybe it's only the towns in States.

But I agree with Doug about booze and driving. It is simply criminal.

[VAR1016]

Exactly! It seems to me we have arrived at a sad state here in which the majority of people define speeding as exceeding a given speed limit. Don't worry about how idiotic the particular limit is, or the traffic density, weather conditions, road surface and condition, the driver's competence, state of mind or fatigue level. Or the type of vehicle.

Certainly you can't build all these factors into a speed detection device but the key thing is that years of the authorities banging home the message of "Obey the speed limit and you'll be right mate" has resulted in a driving population lacking critical judgement. The thought that speeding might actually be defined as travelling at a speed which is unsafe after factoring in all the circumstances which bear on safety will be a mystery to them. Actually thinking about driving is, largely, a lost art.

That aspect of this that I find especially depressing is the disappearance of the concept of mitigation which was for hundreds of years, an essential part of legal process.

The speed camera - and now often the cop manning the hand-held variety - take no account of the circumstances as you rightly point out. So 4 a.m on a deserted main road and 6 p.m. rush-hour traffic, it's all the same.

I once overtook an unmarked cop car one sunny afternoon on the A3 with very little traffic. For those who are unfamiliar, this is a well maintained six-lane dual carriageway. I was doing 115mph. He went ballistic, but sadly for him he was on his own and so couldn't nick me. He said "We bury people like you every week" which of course is nonsense. He added "You were still doing 85 after you saw me [not true]" I was thinking "OK I broke the law, give me a ticket and forget the cod lecture"

Another time it was Christmas eve and the cop said "When we eventually caught up with you we had you at 94 mph; obviously the car's well capable of it (one of my battered Fulvias) but there is a national speed limit of 70mph." He breathalysed me which was fine as I had had only half a pint with my lunch four hours before. He then said, as it's the season of goodwill we'll let it go as a caution."

Compare and contrast eh?

Edited by VAR1016, 05 April 2010 - 18:25.

[sonar]

If my memory serves, Ronnie Peterson almost missed the 1970 Belgian GP having been locked-up following a road-driving misdemeanour en route to the circuit...

He was arrested because an overenthusiastic police officer kept him from intering the circuit grounds because he thought he (Ronnie) was jumping the queue.
Which was true, of course, because for obvious reasons he needed to be there on time.
Then, when taken to the police station, he was accused of driving over de policeman's foot (which he hadn't done).
The let him go to do the race but arrested him immediately after and put him in prison for two nights!
Later that summer luckily all charges were dropped.

[cpbell]

I don't know about "CS spray" (not really sure what that is, technically), but here in the USA, mace and pepper spray are legal. You can even get pepper spray at places like Wal-Mart.

Now, going around and spraying that stuff in other people's faces is another story...

I should have typed "CS gas" rather than "CS spray" - apologies. Link

[johnfitzpatrick]

I was in Daytona in 1972 for the 24hrs. One evening before the race we were taking a late drive on the beach in our rental car and generally behaving like hooligans, thinking that there were no restrictions, when we were chased by a police car. The officer was very upset with us and took us down to the police station to pay a fine. As we were walking into the police station, Ronnie Peterson was just walking out, having done the same thing and duly paid his fine. We smiled at each other and I went in and paid. It took about 30 minutes to do all the paperwork and pay and then they told me to go home. On the way out, we met Ronnie coming back in again. They had caught him a second time. I can't remember what happened to him, but they were not too pleased.

Ronnie was a complete lunatic on the road. In 1976 we were driving together in the BMW Team at the Nurburgring 6 hour race. My Father had come over to watch and brought a friend with him. After Practise we decided to go down to Mayen for Dinner. We went in Ronnie's CSL with me in the front passenger seat and my Father and his friend in the back. It is about 20kms from the ring down a good but winding road with big sweeping corners. I swear we were doing 100 mph plus all the way there and the only time we were not sideways was when we pulled up outside the restaurant. Needless to say my Father and his friend didn't feel very much like eating when we arrived and had to be lifted from the car. Funny thing was that my Father was not a great Motor Racing fan and had no idea who Ronnie was. A lovely guy and one of the greatest drivers the world has ever seen!

Edited by johnfitzpatrick, 16 April 2010 - 22:30.

[LittleChris]

Really nice photo John, Kyalami 1976 ?

[johnfitzpatrick]

Really nice photo John, Kyalami 1976 ?

Yes, correct. Pity about the quality.

[LittleChris]

Hey it's the content that matters !!

[Graham Clayton]

Not quite caught by the fuzz, but I always liked the story of Dick Johnson's Bathurst campaign in 1982, when his Falcon started glazing bores in qualifying... in the wee small hours of Friday night/Sat morn, one of the NSW Police's finest wandered in as DJ was nailing the engine back together and asked if that was the "good" motor, to be told that "it would be, if we had somewhere to run it in"... legend has it that said constable replied with "leave it to me", and a section of the Orange-Blayney road was mysteriously closed for some period of time, as the big blue car boomed back and forth...

Hank the Deuce,

One driver who was caught by the fuzz on the Orange-Blayney road was John Goss, back in 1970. He was running in his GT-HO Phase 2 after replacing the pistons when he was pulled over near the village of Lucknow by the local police officer in his Mini Cooper S patrol car. Realising he might be booked, Goss said to the officer "Have you ever driven a GT-HO Falcon?" When the police officer said "No", Goss said "Would you like to drive one now"?

The police officer drove the GT-HO to the oustkirts of Orange, before switching back to the Mini.

[E1pix]

I was in Daytona in 1972 for the 24hrs. One evening before the race we were taking a late drive on the beach in our rental car and generally behaving like hooligans, thinking that there were no restrictions, when we were chased by a police car. The officer was very upset with us and took us down to the police station to pay a fine. As we were walking into the police station, Ronnie Peterson was just walking out, having done the same thing and duly paid his fine. We smiled at each other and I went in and paid. It took about 30 minutes to do all the paperwork and pay and then they told me to go home. On the way out, we met Ronnie coming back in again. They had caught him a second time. I can't remember what happened to him, but they were not too pleased.

Ronnie was a complete lunatic on the road. In 1976 we were driving together in the BMW Team at the Nurburgring 6 hour race. My Father had come over to watch and brought a friend with him. After Practise we decided to go down to Mayen for Dinner. We went in Ronnie's CSL with me in the front passenger seat and my Father and his friend in the back. It is about 20kms from the ring down a good but winding road with big sweeping corners. I swear we were doing 100 mph plus all the way there and the only time we were not sideways was when we pulled up outside the restaurant. Needless to say my Father and his friend didn't feel very much like eating when we arrived and had to be lifted from the car. Funny thing was that my Father was not a great Motor Racing fan and had no idea who Ronnie was. A lovely guy and one of the greatest drivers the world has ever seen!

What a fabulous story, I'll bet you have many more! I'm curious, did your Dad's driving increase or decrease in speed after that???

As far as Ronnie being one of the greatest drivers the world has ever seen.... agreed.... but you're in that mix as well. Congrats on a great career.

[GMACKIE]

I feel fortunate to have lived through an era when [some, at least] police were human beings, not robotic revenue collectors.

One night in circa 1962, I was confronted by two policemen, after driving at way above the speed limit. In those days your road car was also your race car [probably ONLY car].

The sergeant suggested that I was traveling at more than the top speed of their EK Holden, and that as he could not catch me to do a speed check, therefore would not book me for speeding! I gladly accepted a 'ticket' for a noisy exhaust.

The parting words from the young constable still ring in my very lucky ears - "In future, keep that sort of speed for the race-track".

Cheers,

Greg

[seldo]

Not quite true to topic, but close...
After our '79 car was totalled in a race crash just prior to Bathurst in '80, we had to build a new 2lt Twin Cam Gemini/Kadet ZZ in a panic, and ordered some fancy-antsy fuel injection for it from Germany. As race date got closer and closer, it became obvious that it was highly unlikely it was going to arrive, and we needed a fall-back. So, in desperation we went to see old Headly McGee who was a legend in dirt-track speedway and made all the constant-flow injection systems for the speedway midgets.
We explained our dilemma and he reckoned he could cobble something up for us in the 2 weeks that we had before race day, and whilst a bit rudimentary, might get us out of trouble.
It arrived on the Weds before the race; we bolted it on that night, started the car and it actually ran, so we just put the car on the trailer and off to Bathurst.
In the first practise it was hopeless - missing and farting and just a total disaster. So we fiddled and fiddled, but without a dyno or somewhere to test it, it was going to be useless.
So, that Friday night, I bowled into the local Police Station, asked to see the Traffic Sergeant, and explained that we had a problem with the race car, that we had a "trade-plate" for registration/insurance coverage, and was there somewhere where we could go to drive it without ending up in jail....?
The old Sergeant looked me up and down and said in a loud gruff voice for all to hear- "Don't be stupid lad! I can't give you permission to drive an unregistered, uninsured, unroadworthy race car on a public road!"
Then he lowered his voice and said to me conspiratorially- " If you go out of town towards Mudgee on the Humpybong Rd (??) for about 10k, there's a quiet bit of road there. I can't give you permission to use it, nor to break the law, but we'll only be Policing the main roads into town from Lithgow and from Orange..."
So, we headed out there and blasted up and down the road, then drilled out the injector nozzles after each run showed an improvement, and checked plugs etc until we thought we had it half ok.
During the middle of proceedings a local farmer rolled up with a "What the bloody hell do you blokes think you're doing - you'll put me cows off milking !" - "I'm going to call the Coppers". At the time we were sponsored by Cinzano, so we thrust a carton the sponsors' product in his arms and told him get scarce... He went away thinking he'd won the lottery...
I doubt that the constabulary would be as compliant today.
__________________

Edited by seldo, 10 May 2011 - 05:16.

[Amphicar]

Poacher turned gamekeeper turned poacher: http://news.bbc.co.u...hi/uk/49787.stm

[DogEarred]

Told to me by one of his entourage:
Shortly after arriving in England, in the 70s, Larry Perkins was stopped for speeding on a motorway, driving a battered old Mini.
Accused of doing 90 odd mph, his reply to the uniformed gentlemen was along the lines of " Thank £$%^ for that. I thought the compression might have been down..." Not sure of the outcome.


An otherwise charming chap I know, who is not proud of it but has the 'distinction' or having speeding tickets from:
UK (3+ times)
USA (3 times)
Germany (1)
South Africa (1)
Swaziland (1)
and has lost count of the number of times he's been photographed but not found on the motorways of Europe.
He was reduced to giggles in Swaziland, when stopped by a local Bobby wearing full UK type blue uniform & helmet - but with short trousers..
(Didn't stop him getting fined though.)
He was once stopped on the M1 and told he was "doing 90mph at every possible opportunity". He gave a guilty plea there & then as he had actually been doing 120mph at every possible opportunity...

He also once towed his racing car on an open trailer, behind a Cortina, in heavy rain, to an event in Denmark. The motorways were straight & boring and he was towing at 90mph. The wipers were even lifting off the windscreen. When he arrived, he found a trailer tyre was right through to the canvas!
He was more circumspect after that.

I don't think you will ever take the 'adventurous spirit' out of young people in one form or another but hopefully we all mature quickly enough without doing too much damage.
Although, thesedays, it seems, I see more than ever, driving far more dangerous than speeding - by young & old alike!

[Hank the Deuce]

Told to me by one of his entourage:
Shortly after arriving in England, in the 70s, Larry Perkins was stopped for speeding on a motorway, driving a battered old Mini.
Accused of doing 90 odd mph, his reply to the uniformed gentlemen was along the lines of " Thank £$%^ for that. I thought the compression might have been down..." Not sure of the outcome.

LP was a bit of a target I think...

Saw an article linked to the development of a local still-born homologation special sedan where he intimated that The Bronze used to pull him up quite a bit, but he'd generally talk his way around them...

He did get famously pinged for an aborted pursuit involving an HDT Commodore, a helicopter, and the Tullamarine Freeway IIRC... the police apparently went looking for him at the HDT workshop, only able to identify that the car was driven by an individual with a moustache... they workshop had a score of such individuals... and LP had removed his when they came a-callin'