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Historic F1 fan? Get to Mallory Park every Wednesday morning!


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#1401 donshut

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 17:56

I'm sure the bodywork above the race number next to rad is different. There was a slight recess and this flat. Unless it's just the sun hiding it. The photo at Donnington shows it though....
I'll try and find a photo in period.

Different angle to peruse Steve :)

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#1402 f1steveuk

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 18:01

Think one of the things is the one piece cockpit/scuttle cover panel has devloped some "crease lines" whereas the originals aere a nice rounded profile, I'm guessing it's a new one, made to give a bit more room inside for some larger feet/legs. Is it WR1, 2 or 3?

#1403 Giraffe

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 18:24

Think one of the things is the one piece cockpit/scuttle cover panel has devloped some "crease lines" whereas the originals aere a nice rounded profile, I'm guessing it's a new one, made to give a bit more room inside for some larger feet/legs. Is it WR1, 2 or 3?


It's the Peter Wunsch owned car. WR2 (WR1 - 2 as per the chassis plate).

Edited by Giraffe, 24 March 2011 - 18:25.


#1404 Phil Rainford

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 18:36

A couple of " different " cars from this Wednesday

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This didn't half have some grunt out of the hairpin

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While stuggling with this........is it a Stratos?

PAR

#1405 David Lawson

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 18:44

This might help a little. I took the photo of the Wolf in 1977 at Brands Hatch and I've copied in the photo from earlier in the thread for comparison.

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David

#1406 Giraffe

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 19:31

This car as pictured earlier at Donington in 1991 is actually Mike Littlewood's WR3. & WR2 was there with John Fenning (as was the WR1 of Walter Wolf).

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By giraffe138 at 2011-03-24

This is Jody Scheckter at Donington in May 1991 demonstrating #20 WR2 as seen at Mallory yesterday.

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By giraffe138 at 2011-03-24

...and two pics of the car from Mallory last June....

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By giraffe138 at 2011-03-24
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By giraffe138 at 2011-03-24

Edited by Giraffe, 24 March 2011 - 20:07.


#1407 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 00:12

I agree, the whole section around the front number looks different to how it was in period, as does the roll hoop (thinner and taller) and engine cover (more cutaway). The livery is a little different and the colours themselves don't seem quite the same(less gold and maybe a bluer-black) ... But still a joy to see!
Here's the same/a similar Wolf at Oulton in about 1985....



#1408 Thundersport

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 00:52

Simon; who and what were in this race? It is one I have never heard of or come across before.

#1409 alansart

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:53

Simon; who and what were in this race? It is one I have never heard of or come across before.


Oulton Park, Historic F1, and I would guess around 1987/88. I'm not sure who's in the Wolf but it looks like Richard Peacock in the smoking Tyrrell and Don Wood in the Arrows.

Was the Wolf the car that John Fenning drove for a while?


#1410 Giraffe

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:00

Was the Wolf the car that John Fenning drove for a while?


As mentioned at the start of post #406, yes Alan. That was when WR2 & 3 were run by Stockbridge Racing for both he & Mike Littlewood. :wave:


#1411 alansart

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:15

As mentioned at the start of post #406, yes Alan. That was when WR2 & 3 were run by Stockbridge Racing for both he & Mike Littlewood. :wave:


Doh! :blush:

#1412 Phil Rainford

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 19:17

My last offering from this week....

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PAR


#1413 elansprint72

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 20:52

I agree, the whole section around the front number looks different to how it was in period, as does the roll hoop (thinner and taller) and engine cover (more cutaway). The livery is a little different and the colours themselves don't seem quite the same(less gold and maybe a bluer-black) ... But still a joy to see!
Here's the same/a similar Wolf at Oulton in about 1985....



I've just been thinking "nothing looks the same" then I realised that the last Wolfs (Wolves? :rolleyes: ) I saw were actually Williams FN5s at Monaco! :blush:

#1414 Mallory Dan

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 12:18

Phil and I were musing on Sat night, about what times are done in practice at Mallory these days, and how they compare to those set in period. He said Simon H in the Trojan looked very fast, anyone know what times he was doing?

#1415 barnettracing

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 13:52

Hi,

Does anyone have any photos from last Wednesday's test (23rd March) of the black/white Van Diemen RF00 FF1600 (#90).

Thanks,

Josh

#1416 Cirrus

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 15:57

Phil and I were musing on Sat night, about what times are done in practice at Mallory these days, and how they compare to those set in period. He said Simon H in the Trojan looked very fast, anyone know what times he was doing?


Apparently, Mallory with its new surface is 0.75-1.0 seconds quicker than before, but the approach to the hairpin is bumpier than it used to be. Some of the times set in period were pretty remarkable, though. 48.0 in a 1-Litre F3 in 1970? 46.4 in an FF2000 in 1979?

#1417 Giraffe

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 16:35

Apparently, Mallory with its new surface is 0.75-1.0 seconds quicker than before, but the approach to the hairpin is bumpier than it used to be. Some of the times set in period were pretty remarkable, though. 48.0 in a 1-Litre F3 in 1970? 46.4 in an FF2000 in 1979?


The outright circuit record at the end of 1976 was jointly held by Ian Ashley in his Lola T330 & Bob Evans in a Lola T400 at 41.4s.
Keegan & Giacomelli jointly held the F3 (2 litre) record in Chevron & March respectively at 44.0s & the FF2000 record stood at 47.4s again jointly to Tiff Needell in a Hawke DL16 & Oscar Notz in a Crossle 31F.

#1418 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 16:41

In the Trojan, just before the Gold Cup in 09, I did a 41.6, I have been quicker in Irvine's Williams 06 and Peter Orlando's Tyrrell 009 but the Trojan remains the quickest "feeling" car I have driven at Mallory. At those speeds the Esses seem to arrive really quickly and an element of common sense seems to kick in .......the speeds they did when the circuit was sleeper lined really make you appreciate just how good (and brave) our heros were.
The circuit is - as Alan said - about a second quicker after this winters resurfacing, particularly for a Formula Ford or similar, we have yet to go with a big car to see how quick we can go and how the changes affect one of those. Interestingly I feel part of the speed is in the removal of the bump on the way into Gerards, which allows you to take more speed in and the car doesnt become unsettled, and I have to say I thought that the entry to the hairpin was smoother too. There is however a noticeable ripple strip just after the exit from the hairpin, which will actually flick the rear wheels up in a stiff car.
As for the times set in period, two things come mind, one; they really were very good you know, and two; they did have very good tyres - probably better than most people think, then as now a determined tyre manufacturer is the best way to find performance. The period times that impress me are Ronnie in a March 712 on treaded tyres - 43.0 and Denny Hulme in 1966 in Sid Taylor's T70 Mk2 spyder - on Goodyears - 47.6.....Respect!!

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 28 March 2011 - 16:43.


#1419 Alan Cox

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 18:37

and Denny Hulme in 1966 in Sid Taylor's T70 Mk2 spyder - on Goodyears - 47.6.....Respect!!

Was that the first 100mph lap at Mallory, Simon? I seem to recall that Denny had the honour of doing it.

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#1420 thebullet

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 19:21

Should be there on wednesday, weather isn't looking great though. Will be taking the camera too! any requests?

#1421 Cirrus

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 20:43

The period times that impress me are Ronnie in a March 712 on treaded tyres - 43.0 and Denny Hulme in 1966 in Sid Taylor's T70 Mk2 spyder - on Goodyears - 47.6.....Respect!!


Not Mallory I know, but while we're on the subject of impressive times, Jochen Rindt's 1:13.2 pole time at Thruxton in an F2 Lotus 59 in 1969 was outstanding...



#1422 Mallory Dan

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:17

The late 70s Aurora F1s were getting down to late 39s, early 40 secs there, on what at the time, were called 'wooden' Goodyears. I recall de Dryver had pole for the May 79 race, 39.85 rings a bell. I can't remember now whether the 1980 RAM FW07s were quicker, I suspect they were, de Villota and Salazar.

Later on I gather the turbos were occasional testers there, Rosberg in FW09 and Palmer in a 956, but they don't count I reckon!

#1423 Giraffe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:20

Gatmo told me Piquet & Rosberg ran 35's testing in the turbo era! He could hear them from his local school, but his dad was working at the circuit like Wayne himself does today.


:smoking:


#1424 f1steveuk

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:42

As regards Wolf WR2, I think there has been some gently modifications to the bodywork, to fit in bigger drivers and different ancillaries, required to make them legal for some historic events. The cars always were a very dark blue, but it seems such a shame to restore these cars, and then let little detail mistakes slip through, as in the signwriting. I saw a Lotus 72 the other day, and the lettering, in style, size and placement was all just wrong!

#1425 Giraffe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:44

I saw a Lotus 72 the other day, and the lettering, in style, size and placement was all just wrong!


JPS, GLTL, Rob Walker, Lucky Strike, Gunston etc? Which one Steve? I imagine it may be Gold Leaf as they seem to vary quite a bit. Never seen a JPS cocked up.

Edited by Giraffe, 29 March 2011 - 13:37.


#1426 Giraffe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 14:14

The period times that impress me are Ronnie in a March 712 on treaded tyres - 43.0 and Denny Hulme in 1966 in Sid Taylor's T70 Mk2 spyder - on Goodyears - 47.6.....Respect!!


In the record books at the conclusion of the 1976 season, the Formula 2 lap record stood to Jean-Pierre Jarier in a March 732 at 41.8s, but that had stood since March '73 so Ronnie's time from 2 years earlier was pretty impressive.
The time that does concern me though is Denny's in the Lola. The record as it still stood at the end of 1976 was 47.8s set on 23/5/68 by Frank Gardner in Sid's T70 Mk3. Was Denny's earlier faster time set in testing, Simon?


#1427 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 14:51

Denny's time was set on Whit Sunday 1966, in the second heat of the Grovewood Trophy, was 47.6 and was as I recall the outright circuit record and stood (I think)until the first 1600 F2 race. It was also as Alan stated above the first lap over 100mph and he won a £100 bonus for that.
About Bernard De Dryvers lap, he is still very proud of it today!

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 29 March 2011 - 18:53.


#1428 Phil Rainford

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 15:05

Hi,

Does anyone have any photos from last Wednesday's test (23rd March) of the black/white Van Diemen RF00 FF1600 (#90).

Thanks,

Josh


Hope this is OK Josh?

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PAR


#1429 Giraffe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 15:21

The record as it still stood at the end of 1976 was 47.8s set on 23/5/68 by Frank Gardner in Sid's T70 Mk3. Was Denny's earlier faster time set in testing, Simon?


I've just realised 23/5/68 was a Wednesday. Must have been on a Mallory Wednesday morning then. Bloody Autosport. :blush:

#1430 thebullet

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 16:08

Weather is looking bad for tomorrow and my camera gear is all packed and ready! will be paddock trawling tomorrow too!

#1431 Patrick Sumner

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 16:23

In the Trojan, just before the Gold Cup in 09, I did a 41.6, I have been quicker in Irvine's Williams 06 and Peter Orlando's Tyrrell 009 but the Trojan remains the quickest "feeling" car I have driven at Mallory.


That’s very interesting, I’ve often wondered what a “modern” F5000 would do. You would have been the man to beat way back then! When you say the tyres were very good, do you mean better than we imagine today, or as good if not better than today’s tyres? My FA Kitchiner ran on Firestone YB11 but appears to me to be quicker on today’s slicks and the tendency for the suspension pick ups in the chassis to crack seems to indicate greater loads. You’re right about the sleeper walls, I’ve reversed into the one on the entry to Gerards and you stopped very quickly, as Gordy Spice found out to his great discomfort when it all went wrong for him at the Esses! I think it’s a great little circuit and I enjoy looking through this thread each week with all the excellent photos.

#1432 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 17:54

Ah, but the point is we all know so much more now, it is so very difficult to compare now and then. I would suggest we have access to what would have been considered then to have been the very best kit - comparable to Brian Redman's Jim Hall car or Mario's Vel's car. You just cannot underestimate the accumulated knowledge, I dont think we have much more power but we do have it far more reliably, we know much more about suspension and shock absorbers, we run shorter races and dont have to contend with big weight changes and tyres going away, generally everything is in our favour!
About tyres, I think that 1975/6 on Goodyears would be considered at least on a par with the tyres we are mandated to run today, in some cases (F3) the Goodyears would be far superior. From the earlier period the Goodyears had a fair advantage over the Dunlops from around 1966, which is why teams like Willment and Sid Taylor were so keen to run with them.


#1433 Cirrus

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 19:09

I'm interested to read your comments about tyres, Simon. In 1975/6 Goodyear produced some really soft, sticky tyres like the G50 and G53. Like you, I'm sure they were quicker than the Avons which are compulsory now. What do you think about the G54's which became mandatory in British F3 in '77 (or was it '78?). I've always thought that the current Avons were pretty similar in performance - what do you think?

While we're on the subject, how do you think the current Avons compare with the Dunlops which were run in FF2000 in period?

#1434 thebullet

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:10

Anyone know any numbers for tomorrow?

#1435 elansprint72

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:20

Ah, but the point is we all know so much more now, it is so very difficult to compare now and then. I would suggest we have access to what would have been considered then to have been the very best kit - comparable to Brian Redman's Jim Hall car or Mario's Vel's car. You just cannot underestimate the accumulated knowledge, I dont think we have much more power but we do have it far more reliably, we know much more about suspension and shock absorbers, we run shorter races and dont have to contend with big weight changes and tyres going away, generally everything is in our favour!
About tyres, I think that 1975/6 on Goodyears would be considered at least on a par with the tyres we are mandated to run today, in some cases (F3) the Goodyears would be far superior. From the earlier period the Goodyears had a fair advantage over the Dunlops from around 1966, which is why teams like Willment and Sid Taylor were so keen to run with them.



I agree with your sentiments re the super photos but one thing which really frustrates me is the current lack of access to perfectly safe close-in perches for us snappers. When I think back to some of the spots I used to stand I'm sure that I would not do it now (even though one could rely on blokes like Gerry and Tony to be millimetre-perfect lap after lap and still find time to make eye contact and throw us "gestures", although most of the guys stood back to shoot Formula Ford!). However, the hairpin at Mallory always was (and still is) one of the most safe places to get a good image; it is pretty much like a street corner in any big city, with the added bonus of a foot-high kerb. Has anyone ever gone off/over the inside of that corner?
I work at Le Mans most years and where 200mm lens would do the job in the old days, one needs something much longer now. Which photos looked most dramatic, then or now?
Rant ends. :smoking:

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#1436 Thundersport

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:38

From memory I think more than one car has ended up on the inside; single seaters when they've touched wheels.

#1437 elansprint72

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:45

From memory I think more than one car has ended up on the inside; single seaters when they've touched wheels.

Single-seaters all being Formula Fords, some with larger engines than others. Treat them all the same, stand well back. ;)

Edited by elansprint72, 30 March 2011 - 08:35.


#1438 dancin stu

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:31

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While stuggling with this........is it a Stratos?

PAR


Long time lurker of this thread, so glad to be able to finally offer something to contribute... Must get myself down there one Wednesday when work allows....

Looks like the latest Knightsport Stratos replica. I remember from my childhood one of their earlier attempts being featured in CCC, bike engined, large reliance on ground effect aerodynamics and a bit of a "giant killer" against the Cx based Skoda contingent at the time. Home built composite chassis too, very very neat as a I remember.

Quick google search yields this web page although could do with some higher resolution photos of what looks like a very interesting car:

http://www.carbonconcepts.co.uk/

Sam if you're reading this, how about a RCE feature on it......


Stu

Edited by dancin stu, 30 March 2011 - 06:33.


#1439 Phil Rainford

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:28

Thanks Stu :up:


PAR

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#1440 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 11:45

I'm interested to read your comments about tyres, Simon. In 1975/6 Goodyear produced some really soft, sticky tyres like the G50 and G53. Like you, I'm sure they were quicker than the Avons which are compulsory now. What do you think about the G54's which became mandatory in British F3 in '77 (or was it '78?). I've always thought that the current Avons were pretty similar in performance - what do you think?

While we're on the subject, how do you think the current Avons compare with the Dunlops which were run in FF2000 in period?



I reckon the G54 would be a touch softer than the current spec Avon we use in Classic F3, but not by much and remember that the real F3 teams would have had unlimited sets to throw at their cars. The FF2000 tyres I can't really comment on - hopefully I'll let you know later this year!

#1441 2F-001

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:07

Just going back, for a moment, to the matter of Denny Hulme's Mallory record with the Lola - I think that stood as the outright record until the first visit of F5000 (1969) rather than 1600 F2, the record falling to Peter Gethin (and from memory, possibly faulty, I think at least Hobbs and de Adamich were under that figure too). That was a big day in this young lad's life - seeing an outright record go. I'm tempted to say something in the high 44s, but am not close to any of my books or records to check.

Did the 1600 F2s visit before '71? The first time I can recall seeing them at Mallory was '71, when Henri Pescarolo (in a Williams-run 712?) won, Ronnie having assaulted the Esses banking quite spectacularly in the first heat (?).

I think a few of the 'Boss' series cars got down to low 38s in later times; don't know what their practice times would have been - I'd left Leicester by then and didn't get to absorb the Mallory-minutiae so avidly. The reputed testing times of Piquet, and possibly Rosberg, where the stuff of local legend - and laps I'd love to have seen.

Edited by 2F-001, 30 March 2011 - 12:23.


#1442 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:46

You're quite right, Tony. Here's how the Mallory record progressed, as shown in Autosport's yearly lap records surveys:

Mallory Park - outright:

1967:Denny Hulme (Lola T70 Mk2) 47.6 sec
1968: no change
1969: Peter Gethin (McLaren M10A) 44.0 sec
1970: Peter Gethin (McLaren M10B) 42.8 sec
1971: Peter Gethin (McLaren M10B) & Mike Hailwood (Surtees TS8) 42.8 sec
1972: no change
1973: Jean-Pierre Jarier (March 732) 41.8 sec
1974: Ian Ashley (Lola T330) 41.4 sec

They gave up on lap record surveys after this. I don't have anything before 1967.

Edited by Tim Murray, 30 March 2011 - 12:51.


#1443 Giraffe

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:05

Bob Evans in a Lola T400 / Whitehurst matched Ian Ashley's time on 12/10/75.

#1444 2F-001

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:12

Thanks Tim and Tony.

I'm surprised that 44.0 'round number' didn't stick more firmly in my mind, although i know it seemed like a huge improvement at the time.

I wonder if Denny already held the record prior to that '67 lap? From the earliest times I went to Mallory, Hulme was the outright record holder (I wonder if he already held it prior to that '67 lap?) and it felt like it had stood "for ever" when we attended the first F5000 meeting in eager anticipation. However, when you're that age (just pre-teens) a couple of years feels like a very long time. I felt fairly sure I'd been taken to Mallory prior to '67, but such a trip must have been a fairly extravagant treat from my father and we probably didn't have the luxury of buying a programme, so maybe didn't know such details as lap records unless the commentator mentioned them for the classes racing on the day.

I attended much less regularly after I'd left Leicester in the late 70s, but I think we still have all the programmes once the bug had bitten and I spent such a big chunk of my youth there. Some record holders always stuck in my mind - such as a time when maybe four or five drivers shared the F3 record; and the Riley Elf-BDA special saloon record (John Hipkiss, was it?). We're getting seriously off-thread here! (But it "is" nostalgia.)

Edited by 2F-001, 30 March 2011 - 13:13.


#1445 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:23

Tony, I'm pretty sure that Denny's record was set in 1966. Here are the details of the relevant race on the WSRP site:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/bscc1966.html#4

where Hulme is credited with the fastest lap at 47.65 sec. There doesn't seem to have been an equivalent race in 1967, so his 1966 record would still have stood in Autosport's 1967 survey.

Edited by Tim Murray, 30 March 2011 - 13:25.


#1446 2F-001

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:43

Ah, yes - I wasn't paying attention was I? The survey's list is records standing in those years, not necessarily the seasons they were set in - although clearly the later one were. I've never managed to accurately pin down the very first meeting I went to, but figured it could likely have been in '66. It included Mini-filled special saloon races and a couple of Clubmans formula races which really intrigued me. That probably sparked another long-running fascination, the Lotus Seven (albeit through a later Caterham). When the 'Prisoner' tv series appeared I, unlike any of my schoolfriends, already knew precisely what 'the car' was having seen such things race (and where it was - having seen Portmeirion on a family holiday). The Prisoner launched in '67 so it all sort-of-fits, I suppose.

#1447 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 14:13

There was a 1600 F2 race in 1967 and in practice 4 or 5 people were under the record (which is I think why I thought the record had fallen then) but it rained in the heats and final and although John Surtees ran away to win by three laps his fastest lap was only a 53.8. (Thats three laps from the likes of Gardner, Mclaren, Ickx, you know, the average journeyman driver......)

#1448 thebullet

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 14:34

Back from a decent morning/early afternoon at Mallory, a few nice things about. Will try and get some shots up later, still have a back log of 2 other race meetings to get on my website :rolleyes:

Edited by thebullet, 30 March 2011 - 14:34.


#1449 Giraffe

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 14:59

There was a 1600 F2 race in 1967 and in practice 4 or 5 people were under the record (which is I think why I thought the record had fallen then) but it rained in the heats and final and although John Surtees ran away to win by three laps his fastest lap was only a 53.8. (Thats three laps from the likes of Gardner, Mclaren, Ickx, you know, the average journeyman driver......)

Just for info, the F1 lap record as it stood at the end of the 1976 season was 50.8 set by John Surtees in a Lola Mk4 Climax on 11/6/62. I suppose that record still stands today?


#1450 Simon Arron

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 15:22

Ricardo Zunino (Arrows FA1) set an new outright record of 40.06s in an Aurora F1 race - in '79, if memory serves. It's not comparing like with like, but I suspect it was probably regarded as the official F1 record, too.