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Historic F1 fan? Get to Mallory Park every Wednesday morning!


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#101 MCS

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 22:17

One more Huron shot and apologies for the bright light on the right.

Posted Image

Okay icarus, from 1971, as Giraffe says - entered (but not seen?) at the BOAC 1,000 Kms we have;
65 Roger Enever (GB) / Clive Baker (GB) Huron 4A Ford Camel Filters Team Huron

and then in 1972 from the Spa 1,000 Kms;

Did not practice:
6 Roger Enever (GB) / Clive Baker (GB) Huron 4A Ford Camel Filter Withdrawn
7 Shaun Jackson (GB) / Syd Fox (GB) Huron 4A Ford Camel Filter Withdrawn

and so on that season (but with no recorded appearances, let alone starts), according to Martin Krejci's magnificent World Sportscar Championship website: http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc.html

We also see Francois Migault was entered at Le Mans in a Huron 4A (with no assigned co-driver) that year but, again, no appearance.

No wonder Camel pulled out of European motorsport sponsorship for so long...

Edited by MCS, 23 April 2010 - 08:29.


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#102 CoulthardD

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 06:14

The MG looks like the K3 known as the Parnell K3.

Correct - K3009, complete with odd looking Lancia front suspension.

Previous thread.

DC

Edited by CoulthardD, 22 April 2010 - 06:55.


#103 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 06:35

Historic F1 testing at Mallory Park this morning....
Familiar name....

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-21

...in a rather wacky Benetton-Judd. I really don't know what that was all about :confused:


Where have you been Tony?
Young Scott Mansell (no relation) holder of several UK circuit outright lap records, former EuroBoss champion.
Has tried to cut it in the contemporary racing career path, but as usual, lack of budget. £500K+ to do a season of F3 or
1 million for GP2 is very hard to find. Probably easier to win and more fun against 50+ year old businessmen in old F1
cars than against 18 year old career racing drivers with proper budgets in F3/WSR etc.
http://www.scottmans...cord/index.html

That was probably the last Wednesday of mega F1 activity at Mallory for a while, all these shakedowns for the Monaco meeting. Next week they'll be on their way down there.


#104 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 07:13

Where have you been Tony?
Young Scott Mansell (no relation) holder of several UK circuit outright lap records, former EuroBoss champion.


EuroBoss has never really floated my boat for one reason or another, so I've never bothered to look at it too closely. I find it a bit brash when compared to the purer alternatives available.
Scott will never get anywhere if yesterday's performance was anything to go by. It looked low budget, and was all a bit of a shambles with a staccato misfire that nobody seemed to know how to to approach resolving. I agree however; I am getting a bit narrow minded in my old age, Andrew! :blush:

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-22


#105 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 08:24

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-22

The glorius JPS Lotus 77 did venture out for a few rapid shakedown laps.....

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-22

.....but had to share tracktime with machinery that was not quite as rapid. :eek:

Edited by Giraffe, 22 April 2010 - 10:20.


#106 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 08:56

Getting back to the Huron, a 4A was entered by Roger Enever for himself in the support race for the Rothmans Formula 1 International meeting at Oulton Park on April 9th 1971. I clearly remember it in the paddock for it's unique and at the time groundbreaking (in sports cars at least) Camel livery. However, I have not marked it in my programme as having practiced, and therefore I doubt that it actually ran. Has anyone any record of a Huron 4A, variomatic or otherwise actually making it to a grid?

#107 alansart

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 08:59

Getting back to the Huron, a 4A was entered by Roger Enever for himself in the support race for the Rothmans Formula 1 International meeting at Oulton Park on April 9th 1971. I clearly remember it in the paddock for it's unique and at the time groundbreaking (in sports cars at least) Camel livery. However, I have not marked it in my programme as having practiced, and therefore I doubt that it actually ran. Has anyone any record of a Huron 4A, variomatic or otherwise actually making it to a grid?


http://www.racingspo...sis/4A-011.html


#108 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:59

So had you seen this car before then,i think we should be told.


Ok, the short answer is no, as I did not follow the 1972 Belgian hillclimb championship as closely as I obviously should have. I did see a Huron 4A in somewhat different yet striking Camel livery in the Oulton Park paddock in 1971, and that was a rare sight in itself so surely I qualify for half points, icarus? Certainly in the Variomatic format seen at Mallory yesterday, it never ran in the UK, and I doubt it actually ran on a circuit anywhere. Lovely to see it yesterday though, and Simon did a rather nifty lap of the paddock in it! :up:


#109 Pullman99

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:43

JPS -8 if you believe the chassis plate.....(Lotus 77 to me).


Very envious Giraffe!

A screaming (was it?) Matra too. Nice to see the Lotus 77 with Gunnar Nilsson's number. I may be wrong, but the chassis numbers for the 77 are JPS11 (Andretti's 1976 Japanese GP winner), 12, and 14. The 78s began at JPS15 and the Lotus 76 was I think numbered 9 and 10 (presumably the 72s stopped at 8) I haven't checked with Old Racing Cars at this point!

Hope you had a lovely day.

Ian

Edited by Pullman99, 23 April 2010 - 07:42.


#110 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:55

Very envious Giraffe!

A screaming (was it?) Matra too. Nice to see the Lotus 77 with Gunnar Nilsson's number. I may be wrong, but the chassis numbers for the 77 are JPS11 (Andretti's 197g Japanese GP winner), 12, and 14. The 78s begans at JPS15 and the Lotus 76 was I think numbered 9 and 10 (presumably the 72s stopped at 8) I haven't checked with Old Racing Cars at this point!

Hope you had a lovely day.

Ian


Yes Ian, it was an authentic screaming Matra V12! Reading the chassis plates yesterday, the Lotus was JPS-8 and the Matra was MS120-6, neither of which tally with ORC's data!
Anyone know what I was looking at? :confused:

PS Ahh, the Matra must be MS120B-6, but what about the Lotus?

Edited by Giraffe, 22 April 2010 - 12:01.


#111 MCS

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:45

Yes Ian, it was an authentic screaming Matra V12! Reading the chassis plates yesterday, the Lotus was JPS-8 and the Matra was MS120-6, neither of which tally with ORC's data!
Anyone know what I was looking at? :confused:

PS Ahh, the Matra must be MS120B-6, but what about the Lotus?


Tony, I'm sure you said it was JPS-12 when we were looking at the car together. If you recall, I said it meant nothing to me, other than it was a Lotus 77 !


#112 Pullman99

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:48

PS Ahh, the Matra must be MS120B-6, but what about the Lotus?


ORC lists JPS11 and 12 as being in the UK with JPS14 being in the USA. I believe that 13 was missed out for obvious reasons. Does Classic Team Lotus retain 11 and 12? JPS11 was loaned for a while by Colin Chapman to David Render for hillclimbs / sprints. Quite why the Mallory car yesterday should have a plate with JPS8 on it is a bit of a mystery.

Just noticed the above post (crept in whilst I was replying). JPS12 makes perfect sense. What a superb looking car and the last pre-ground effect Lotus F1.

Now, who's going to Snetterton on 20th June? Any news on the Lotus 43 restoration?

Edited by Pullman99, 22 April 2010 - 12:50.


#113 Giraffe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:22

Tony, I'm sure you said it was JPS-12 when we were looking at the car together. If you recall, I said it meant nothing to me, other than it was a Lotus 77 !


It was information overload yesterday, Mark... :drunk: I'll settle on #12. I find increasingly with age, my legendary 'total recall' is going to pot, and I have to rely increasingly on what I affectionately refer to as my 'wallypad' to make notes......... :well: :blush:


#114 Alan Cox

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 14:46

For completists, the Maserati 6C and V8R1 which featured in the previous week's postings are entered for Stephan and Josef Rettenmaier respectively in the Monaco pre-1947 GP and Voiturette class, and are run by Sean Danaher.

Edited by Alan Cox, 22 April 2010 - 14:50.


#115 icarus

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 19:53

Ok, the short answer is no, as I did not follow the 1972 Belgian hillclimb championship as closely as I obviously should have. I did see a Huron 4A in somewhat different yet striking Camel livery in the Oulton Park paddock in 1971, and that was a rare sight in itself so surely I qualify for half points, icarus? Certainly in the Variomatic format seen at Mallory yesterday, it never ran in the UK, and I doubt it actually ran on a circuit anywhere. Lovely to see it yesterday though, and Simon did a rather nifty lap of the paddock in it! :up:

With all the great photos you put on here ,full points.hopefully the Huron Daf will be out again at the Goodwood festival.

#116 MCS

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 19:54

With all the great photos you put on here ,full points.hopefully the Huron Daf will be out again at the Goodwood festival.


Did it run okay today then?


#117 Twin Window

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 22:59

Oooh I'm jealous!

Some smashing stuff to be seen, and great to see all the pics - thanks chaps.

Posted Image


The Matra above... is it a recent [Hall & Hall] restoration? Abba Kogan has an MS120C does he not, but I don't recall seeing an MS120B around before.

The base colour and stripes on the helmet livery below bear a resemblance (albeit used differently) to those used by Piers Courage; namely Eton. Is that a coincidence?

Posted Image


BTW I seem to remember Guy Edwards racing a Camel-backed car in 1971 endurance races - possibly even a Huron - with Roger Enever, would it have been? Presumably not a Variomatic version however...

#118 willga

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 23:30

The base colour and stripes on the helmet livery below bear a resemblance (albeit used differently) to those used by Piers Courage; namely Eton. Is that a coincidence?


No coincidence - pale blue stripes on a black background are the colours of the Old Etonian tie.

Inspiration for my helmet came from Piers Courage (who left the school nearly 40 years before me), and Eddie Irvine's early lid; the white stripes are the colours of the Eton College Shooting VIII.

#119 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:30

Oooh I'm jealous!


The Matra above... is it a recent [Hall & Hall] restoration? Abba Kogan has an MS120C does he not, but I don't recall seeing an MS120B around before.



BTW I seem to remember Guy Edwards racing a Camel-backed car in 1971 endurance races - possibly even a Huron - with Roger Enever, would it have been? Presumably not a Variomatic version however...


Two more shots of the Matra MS120B / 6 as run by Hall & Hall for Twinny..... (I've just spotted the Monaco sticker on the side?!?!) It was chassis #6 (or at very worst #5 with my eyes) which would make it a 120B & not C.

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-23
Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-23

Abba Kogan's 120C is the only Matra entered at Monaco. Abba's Ligier is now with Colin Bennett and Abba has (allegedly) provided Nicholson-McLaren with a budget of £1m to build 10 Matra V12s.

Guy Edwards ran at Le Mans in a Camel sponsored T212 with Roger Enever in 1971.
http://www.racingspo...Edwards-GB.html

I have actually witnessed Daf Variomatic Fords race at Oulton Park in 1968 in the back of F3 Tecnos driven by Gijs Van Lennep and Mike Beckwith entered by Racing Team Holland.
I think the Variomatics were or were going to be banned as the monotone engine note with no gear changes was deemed to be boring by the powers that be. That was way before racing diesels came along.... :well:

Edited by Giraffe, 23 April 2010 - 07:36.


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#120 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:44

Two more shots of the Matra MS120B / 6 as run by Hall & Hall for Twinny..... (I've just spotted the Monaco sticker on the side?!?!) It was chassis #6 (or at very worst #5 with my eyes) which would make it a 120B & not C.

What's the difference between a 120B and 120C?


#121 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:45

I was wondering who might have set the fastest lap of the day. The Matra certainly looked quick; standing on the steps outside Gatmo's tower you could see the car twitching under acceleration as it exited Gerrards and it was visibly quick down the two straights, even in comparison to the other F1 cars.

Clearly there was a fair amount of traffic - of various shapes and sizes, not to mention speeds - but it would be good to know that my eyes weren't deceiving me for once.

My last two shots:

Posted Image

Posted Image






#122 sterling49

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:14

Lovely photos Mark of a fabulous car :up:

#123 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:20

What's the difference between a 120B and 120C?


I really don't know Roger. Doing a bit of 'searching' on the topic has led me to believe that you know considerably more than myself having pointed out variations in the shape of the tub as the model developed in past posts.
Whilst searching, I have also discovered that Allen might have stated #6 to be a 'B' when it is infact now a 'C' and photo comparisons lead me to suspect that the car at Mallory may well actually be Abba Kogan's. (Kogan's 120C is the only Matra on the Monaco entry list).

Edited by Giraffe, 23 April 2010 - 09:27.


#124 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:32

According to Doug in his History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-85 the significant visual difference between the 120B and 120C is that the 120C has twin ducts on top of the nose for the exit of radiator cooling air, whereas the 120B has a single wide duct. The car in these photos has two ducts, so ... is it reasonable to assume ... or ... ?

#125 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:45

According to Doug in his History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-85 the significant visual difference between the 120B and 120C is that the 120C has twin ducts on top of the nose for the exit of radiator cooling air, whereas the 120B has a single wide duct. The car in these photos has two ducts, so ... is it reasonable to assume ... or ... ?


It's an each way bet it's a 120C Tim. Of course IIRC, there was a 120D also...... :)


#126 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 11:25

... but that one's easily identified by its much simpler-looking, more rounded monocoque.  ;)

#127 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 12:55

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2010-04-23

The Matra negotiates Wednesday morning traffic.........

#128 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:19

There was, I think very little difference between the 120B and C, in fact the three 1971 cars, 04, 05 and 06 were all modified in 1972. The main difference was a modified front suspension. 06 was later modified to add a lot of lightness and this might be more deserving of a C name.

Old Racing Cars uses a different naming convention from most: 04, 05 and 06 are called 120Bs throughout and 07, usually called the 120D is called the 120C. Paul Sheldon does the same in milestones Behind the Marques. They may be right.

#129 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:52

Old Racing Cars uses a different naming convention from most: 04, 05 and 06 are called 120Bs throughout and 07, usually called the 120D is called the 120C. Paul Sheldon does the same in milestones Behind the Marques. They may be right.


Somewhere out there on a thread, Allen goes some way to explaining that. I was so intent on squinting at the chassis number in an attempt to decipher whether it was #5 or #6 (I must carry my glasses with me in future) that I did not observe if the chassis plate declared it to be a 'B' or a 'C', if indeed anything at all! Diligence is required on my part in future! :blush:

Edited by Giraffe, 23 April 2010 - 15:54.


#130 MODE

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:29

That's chassis N°6 :

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


A 120B :

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



A 120D, with its bulbous sides :

Posted Image

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#131 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:43

That's chassis N°6 :

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


The chassis plate on the MS120 at Mallory was different from that I'm sure.

Wasn't it silver aluminium, Tony?

#132 MODE

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:55

This is a photo of Kogan's car, taken at Hockenheim 2008, just before Monaco, it must be the same one that you saw (Monaco sticker on the side).







#133 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:18

That's chassis N°6 :

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Interesting that the plate says 120C and the date of fabrication January '71!


#134 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 17:21

That's chassis N°6 :

A 120B :

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The observant may notice the difference in the upper mounting of the front springs when compared with the car at Mallory.


#135 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 18:26

The chassis plate on the MS120 at Mallory was different from that I'm sure.

Wasn't it silver aluminium, Tony?


The plate is reflecting the dark surround, but the date of manufacture I remember clearly, so in the unlikely event of two cars being produced on the same day, it was Kogan's car at Mallory on Wednesday. I also saw a u-tube clip today with an H&H mechanic that I recognised tending the car, so it all ties in. :up:

Edited by Giraffe, 23 April 2010 - 18:26.


#136 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 18:46

I'm not questioning anything here, but raise this out of idle curiosity. Everything else on that chassis plate seems to be in French, apart from 'Date of fabrication'. :confused:

#137 MODE

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 19:08

I'm not questioning anything here, but raise this out of idle curiosity. Everything else on that chassis plate seems to be in French, apart from 'Date of fabrication'. :confused:


That's a very good question :o




#138 Cirrus

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 19:09

I just hope that the driver at Monaco can do the car justice (I'm sure Abba Kogan falls into that category).

There is no sadder sound in historic racing than a Matra V12 "off the cam".

#139 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 20:51

I'm not questioning anything here, but raise this out of idle curiosity. Everything else on that chassis plate seems to be in French, apart from 'Date of fabrication'. :confused:


You've got it Tim. It didn't say 'Date of fabrication' - it was something else.

Both Tony and I read it and I'm certain it had 1971 (or '71) because we both remarked on it. Damn and blast, why didn't we take a photo?! It's quite clear we're both absolutely hopeless from a recent memory perspective...


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#140 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 20:54

Both Tony and I It's quite clear we're both absolutely hopeless from a recent memory perspective...



Have we met? :confused:

Actually Mark, the plate pictured earlier is the one we saw on Wednesday, I'm certain now.

Edited by Giraffe, 23 April 2010 - 20:58.


#141 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:01

Have we met? :confused:


:lol: I'm beginning to wish we hadn't!

I shudder to think what we would have remembered without the photographs...probably very little indeed.


#142 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:03

:lol: I'm beginning to wish we hadn't!


You are not alone, Mark............ :well:


#143 MCS

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:17

Actually Mark, the plate pictured earlier is the one we saw on Wednesday, I'm certain now.


I'm not. It was on, or slightly under the "dashboard" at the front of the cockpit.

Don't recall it having had a blue background behind it.

For fear of having to possibly (probably) suffer any more embarrassment I'm going to shut up now... :rolleyes:

I'll be off to Cutawayland where I can hide and drool...



#144 Giraffe

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:34

Somewhere out there on a thread, Allen goes some way to explaining that.


http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1816753


#145 Phil Rainford

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:07

Do we know what is on the menu tomorrow? :)

PAR

#146 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:30

Probably very little, most will have left for Monaco.

#147 Giraffe

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:49

Probably very little, most will have left for Monaco.


If they've left you behind Simon (as you told me you are not allowed to go  ;) ), can't you bring your new Trojan down for a run? On Saturday at Silverstone, past owner Patrick Sumner told me he'd really like the opportunity to see it out again? :cat:


#148 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 11:11

The plan is to shake down Frank's 24 and for the boys to leave for Monaco straight from the circuit. The Trojan should get it's next airing at the Silverstone test next Wednesday and then a race at the HSCC GP Silverstone round.

#149 MODE

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 15:52

I would have loved to see your MS80 there, maybe one day :blush:





#150 Gatmo

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 19:56

30+ cars booked in tomorrow which means it will be nearer 40. I've no idea what or whom will grace us with their presence.......