21 replies to this topic

[Robin Fairservice]

I know someone who has purchased a Can Am McLaren which could be an M8C, but it appears to have an M12 body. I have searched through a web site of McLaren chassis numbers and the chassis number appears there but with no information on owners or drivers for this chassis. Is there any available sales or shipping information from Trojan who made the production McLarens? I have bought Doug Nye's McLaren book in the hope that this will help, but it is taking a long while to arrive.

Edited by Robin Fairservice, 10 April 2010 - 02:16.

[hansfohr]

Check out this list: http://wsrp.ic.cz/ch...aren_canam.html

[David McKinney]

What's the chassis number, Robin?

PM me if you prefer

[Robin Fairservice]

Check out this list: http://wsrp.ic.cz/ch...aren_canam.html

Thanks, but that is the site that I have been to without success.

[Duncan Fox]

Thanks, but that is the site that I have been to without success.

Robin, is this the white car that had Charlie Gibson in the ownership trail? Serial # M12B 70-02. I was asked to supply parts for it some time back , but I couldnt substantiate the chassis history. Is there a log book?

[Robin Fairservice]

Robin, is this the white car that had Charlie Gibson in the ownership trail? Serial # M12B 70-02. I was asked to supply parts for it some time back , but I couldnt substantiate the chassis history. Is there a log book?

Yes, Charlie Gibson is the recipient of two letters from Bill Kasmer, who rebuilt the car from a wreck, and that is the chassis number quoted to me. I can not see any M12B's in the McLaren chassis number list. From what I can see is that the 70 series cars built by Trojan were M8C's, but the list does not have any information about 70-01 or 70-02, would that be because they were modified M12's? From what I read an M12 has a stressed engine, whereas an M8C had pontoons to support an engine, and my friends car has the pontoons. If you have any more information then I can put you in touch with the owner.

[Robin Fairservice]

In our probing of the history of my friend's Can Am McLaren M12B, we have got back to a Tom Phillips who owned it in 1975/6, according to a MidWestern Council of SCC Tech Inspection logbook. The pictures of the car in the logbook look more like an M8. I have also been sent a picture of him, driving a McLaren M12 in 1973. Who was Tom Phillips and where would he have acquired his car(s) from? A Gordon Barrett is mentioned as possibly a previous owner, but I can't see that connection in the McLaren Chassis number list. Gordon owned M6B #50-07, which he crashed, and the car was rebuilt wih an M12 chassis #60-10. Tom's name shows up in an ownership trail of this car, but not in the assciated comments.

What is an M12B? Particularly as its chassis number looks like an M8 series.

[horizon]

Robin,
Tom Phillips could be the one and the same "phillips exhaust" or something to that effect, Richland Wash. state and also Portland,Or He raced at Indy in the 70's.

[David McKinney]

In our probing of the history of my friend's Can Am McLaren M12B, we have got back to a Tom Phillips who owned it in 1975/6, according to a MidWestern Council of SCC Tech Inspection logbook. The pictures of the car in the logbook look more like an M8. I have also been sent a picture of him, driving a McLaren M12 in 1973. Who was Tom Phillips and where would he have acquired his car(s) from? A Gordon Barrett is mentioned as possibly a previous owner, but I can't see that connection in the McLaren Chassis number list. Gordon owned M6B #50-07, which he crashed, and the car was rebuilt wih an M12 chassis #60-10. Tom's name shows up in an ownership trail of this car, but not in the assciated comments.

What is an M12B? Particularly as its chassis number looks like an M8 series.

No such thing as an M12B, unless it's someone's name for an M12-bodied M6B

My understanding is that M6B 50-07 was first owned by Richard Brown, then rebodied but crashed. Driven for Gordon Barrett by Tom Dutton, with one or two replacements tubs, the second being from M12 60-10. This would have been the car raced by Tom Phillips in the mid '70s. Then to Chuck Haines of Can-Am Cars Ltd 1977, and owned many years by someone called McGraine in Nevada, who restored it in the late '90s with a replica M6B(?) tub

[horizon]

No such thing as an M12B, unless it's someone's name for an M12-bodied M6B

My understanding is that M6B 50-07 was first owned by Richard Brown, then rebodied but crashed. Driven for Gordon Barrett by Tom Dutton, with one or two replacements tubs, the second being from M12 60-10. This would have been the car raced by Tom Phillips in the mid '70s. Then to Chuck Haines of Can-Am Cars Ltd 1977, and owned many years by someone called McGraine in Nevada, who restored it in the late '90s with a replica M6B(?) tub

I believe this M6 is also in Seattle with an replacement tub and the gentleman who owns it has found and now owns the m12 tub that was used after a crash by the First driver who I beieve died in that crash (hope I'm wrong).

[David McKinney]

Yes, Dick Brown was killed in the car

I suppose its next tub would be more suitable from an originality viewpoint than an M12, asssuming it was an M6B - as long as we know the M12 tub's not going to be used to re-create the "same" car

[Robin Fairservice]

No such thing as an M12B, unless it's someone's name for an M12-bodied M6B

My understanding is that M6B 50-07 was first owned by Richard Brown, then rebodied but crashed. Driven for Gordon Barrett by Tom Dutton, with one or two replacements tubs, the second being from M12 60-10. This would have been the car raced by Tom Phillips in the mid '70s. Then to Chuck Haines of Can-Am Cars Ltd 1977, and owned many years by someone called McGraine in Nevada, who restored it in the late '90s with a replica M6B(?) tub

Thanks for the responses. The chassis number is M12B-#70-02. The 70 series are M8C's, and in Martin Krejci's chassis number list there is no information for #70-01 or #70-02. The one difference that I can see between an M12 and an M8C is that the latter has pontoons to support the engine, whereas an M12 used a stressed engine.

The log book only refers to 1975 and 1976, not the car in the 1973 picture which looks like an M12, soit may be adifferent car to the one pictures in the log book.

I understand thatTom Phillips lived in Wisconsin at that time.

[RA Historian]

I suppose its next tub would be more suitable from an originality viewpoint than an M12, asssuming it was an M6B - as long as we know the M12 tub's not going to be used to re-create the "same" car

Oh David, you and I both know that never happens!
Tom

[Duncan Fox]

Oh David, you and I both know that never happens!
Tom

My understanding was that all M6 and M12 tubs both factory and replacement are all accounted for. This particular car is one of several that I have looked at that all have SCCA log books with the same history! The majority had 50 -12 as the serial # but this one as a B/B car has a different but not correct # I have steered at least 2 prospective buyers away from this car because of the lack of solid provenance and in particular the Bill Kasmer history.

Eventually someone was going to purchase it .

I have an extensive file of photos on this chassis and it ,and all its componants match the other M6 style cars built by Kasmer.
McLarens supplied a set of drawings in the late 70s to this gent for the purpose of a one off legitimate repair and probably six cars eventuated from that. My first near purchase experiance was a Kasmer car that was offered to me in the late nineties out of NY and I very nearly fell into that one. Because there are so many of them they are a continual problem . The last gent who contacted me after he had purchased one went into denial and refused to accept that his history was incorrect and the real 50 -12 existed in another state.

Robin , I hate to say this but I think this car is a replica. Also you might like to know, an M12 tub does have pontoons, it is not a stressed engine car. The tub is almost identical to an M6, The M8C tub has lowered pontoons for extra clearance with engine installations. The 1st customer car with a stressed engine was the 8E

Martins wsrp site is pretty well spot on with the M6/12 histories.

[Robin Fairservice]

Many thanks for your response. I think that my friend ought to have a phone conversation with you. Would you mind sending me a PM with your phone numer?

[Robin Fairservice]

I suppose its next tub would be more suitable from an originality viewpoint than an M12, asssuming it was an M6B - as long as we know the M12 tub's not going to be used to re-create the "same" car
[/quote]

Does any one have a picture of a genuine production McLaren-Trojan Can Am car's chassis number plate?

[horizon]

Am I alone here in saying OMG........ Now you want a chassis plate to go along with the Zerox you have!

Edited by horizon, 06 May 2010 - 02:49.

[Robin Fairservice]

Am I alone here in saying OMG........ Now you want a chassis plate to go along with the Zerox you have!

I expected that challenge, but I can assure you that my skills at sheet metalwork are nil! I would like to compare the plate off my friends car's chassis with one that is known to be genuine. I know this sounds very suspicious, but how else do we check to see if the plate that he has is genuine! If someone can assist a PM would avoid public exposure. I have seen photos of plates on othe threads when there have been discussions about doubtful cars, and as this one seems to have a dubious past, we would like to actually confirm ar deny that.

[David McKinney]

The existence of a genuine plate on the car would merely prove the plate - and not necessarily the car - is genuine

[Allen Brown]

Robin - it is now very, very easy to have a reproduction chassis plate made that will precisely match the original. You can even have it distressed to your exact specification.

Because of this, the existence of a chassis plate on a car is now meaningless. Only a detailed examination of the monocoque and a detailed examination of the claimed provenance can prove a car's identity - and some fakers are even getting very good at that.

For example, when I explored the Chevron B19s, I found several cars with very solid ownership histories. It was only when I explored every B19 that I found several cars with identical ownership histories all the way back to an owner who appeared to have bought the car once and sold it twice. So even a provenance on its own isn't enough. You need a Duncan Fox who has examined each and every claimant across the model range to tell you whether the car's history has been cloned.

[DJSILLS]

Robin - it is now very, very easy to have a reproduction chassis plate made that will precisely match the original. You can even have it distressed to your exact specification.

Because of this, the existence of a chassis plate on a car is now meaningless. Only a detailed examination of the monocoque and a detailed examination of the claimed provenance can prove a car's identity - and some fakers are even getting very good at that.

For example, when I explored the Chevron B19s, I found several cars with very solid ownership histories. It was only when I explored every B19 that I found several cars with identical ownership histories all the way back to an owner who appeared to have bought the car once and sold it twice. So even a provenance on its own isn't enough. You need a Duncan Fox who has examined each and every claimant across the model range to tell you whether the car's history has been cloned.

I awoke this morning and obviously have entered into an alternative universe - OLDRACINGCARS believes that detailed examination of a monocoque can prove a cars identity. Also, original photos from independent sources showing, for example, a New Zealand "E" attached inside a monocoque would be excellent docomentation. Sorry Allen, just having fun.

[Allen Brown]

I awoke this morning and obviously have entered into an alternative universe - OLDRACINGCARS believes that detailed examination of a monocoque can prove a cars identity. Also, original photos from independent sources showing, for example, a New Zealand "E" attached inside a monocoque would be excellent docomentation. Sorry Allen, just having fun.

Err - isn't a New Zealand "E" attached inside a monocoque exactly the sort of thing you'd find by looking at the monocoque? I don't think you'd find that by examining the chassis plate would you?

And I did say looking at the monocoque AND the provenance, not just the monocoque. Never misquote a pedant; he'll not let it pass.

But, far, far more important than any of that, OldRacingcars.com is never spelt in block capitals. That's the sort of blatant inaccuracy that really gets my goat.