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Return to turbos...2013 Engine Regulations? (Merged)


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#1 Zoony

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:21

Another F1 website has been reporting that there have been discussions about the possibility of a return of Formula 1 to 1.5 litre turbos.

http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=40494

I was hoping that some mention of it might have been made during coverage of the Chinese GP, but I don't think I've heard another whisper about it.

Is it one of those really really big secrets that no one in F1 is going to comment upon, or is it just another Pitpass false rumour?

(I suspect the latter, but I sort of regret it...)

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#2 Chezrome

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:24

Another F1 website has been reporting that there have been discussions about the possibility of a return of Formula 1 to 1.5 litre turbos.

http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=40494

I was hoping that some mention of it might have been made during coverage of the Chinese GP, but I don't think I've heard another whisper about it.

Is it one of those really really big secrets that no one in F1 is going to comment upon, or is it just another Pitpass false rumour?

(I suspect the latter, but I sort of regret it...)


Well, at least turbo's have one huge advantage. With a pop-off valve it is very easy to restrict the Horse Power outlet. So that would mean much more freedom for engine builders to do what ever they like - the pop off valve will be an easy and quick way to dampen the advantage.

#3 Palmero

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:30

If it brings back 1500 HP, it would be great.

Knowing the FIA that won't happen, so we'll probably end up losing the V10 and V8s of the past few years for whats essentially a less powerful, less entertaining 600hp lump that the aero of todays cars can totally overpower.

#4 Fastcake

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:34

I have heard a few snippets from various places in the past of turbos back in F1, so there might be something to this. I'm all for turbos, more power :smoking:

#5 fer312t

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:52

No thanks...

It wouldn't end up being like the wild 'Turbo Era' of old (which itself wasn't as exciting and problem free as everyone like to remember)
We'd end up some miserable, virtually spec, 'AER-like' sportscar style engine that is quiet and sounds terrible...



#6 Risil

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:54

I heard from elsewhere that 2 litre inline fours were the preferred option, similar to what'll probably go ahead elsewhere, including Indy. I suspect that everyone's too busy fighting about TV money and corporate hospitality at Sepang to worry about a silly thing like engine specs for the next few years.

One would hope that the most environmentally-friendly and efficient engine configuration will be determined by the crucible of competition, and not Jean Todt and his cronies. It might also be worth keeping in mind Derek Bell's famous dismissal of Group C's regulations in the early '80s, along the lines of 'fans do not come to races to watch an economy run.'

#7 highdownforce

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:55

This is not news.

Edited by highdownforce, 20 April 2010 - 21:59.


#8 Arska

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 00:10

Ah, an engine rule change. Must be another one of FIA's cost cutting measures. :up:

#9 Ali_G

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 00:29

Fairly old news.

A turbo with a pop off valve would be good in a way though. The pressure limits could be adjusted depending on what track you are going to. Give the cars 1200bhp for Monaco for instance.

#10 Scotracer

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 00:32

1500BHP? Man that BMW Turbo gets more powerful every year since its retirement :lol:

Turbos make sense...but it doesn't mean I like them. N/A power is the best sounding type of engine.

#11 Ali_G

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 00:34

1500BHP? Man that BMW Turbo gets more powerful every year since its retirement :lol:

Turbos make sense...but it doesn't mean I like them. N/A power is the best sounding type of engine.


Just imagine what power the teams could get out of a 1.5 turbo today. Surely 2500+ bhp.

#12 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:22

Just imagine what power the teams could get out of a 1.5 turbo today. Surely 2500+ bhp.

They will get two engines or similar to do the whole season though...

2500 hp for 5000 km?

1.6L 4cyl turbo, surely catalytic converter (?) etc for the greenwashing... perhaps 600-700 hp?


F1 can rejoiced at being included in 'FastFours' magazine and the Renault will surely be rebranded as the Nissan team considering their expertise in such motors!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 April 2010 - 01:23.


#13 turbotomus

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:31

There is no way the fia would allow such massive amounts of power. And I'm sure they would introduce limitations and specific restrictions, much like with the kers, to stop too much costly development. Not to mention an engine freeze.

#14 FigJam

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:55

No thanks...

It wouldn't end up being like the wild 'Turbo Era' of old (which itself wasn't as exciting and problem free as everyone like to remember)
We'd end up some miserable, virtually spec, 'AER-like' sportscar style engine that is quiet and sounds terrible...


Are you sure your talking of the right era!?

Maybe it is slightly overhyped at times but compared to anything in the last decade, it was beyond sensational.

Bring back turbos :up:


#15 mclarensmps

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 02:53

They really need to rethink the way they are limiting the engines. I think the best idea, as suggested by others on this board, is a fuel consumption cap, with open interpretation to anything else, in regard to the power train.

Edited by The Big Guns, 21 April 2010 - 02:53.


#16 J2NH

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:02

They really need to rethink the way they are limiting the engines. I think the best idea, as suggested by others on this board, is a fuel consumption cap, with open interpretation to anything else, in regard to the power train.



As much fun as that would be, it would be the end of a number of teams. It would very quickly become a matter of which engine manufacturer is willing to spend the most. That would not be good for F1.

#17 Muz Bee

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:28

They really need to rethink the way they are limiting the engines. I think the best idea, as suggested by others on this board, is a fuel consumption cap, with open interpretation to anything else, in regard to the power train.

And we would see a "turn the wick down" period which would leave the fans totally confused about what's going on in the race. Economy run = drop off in public interest.

Technology is part of what makes F1 special but not all that makes it special. Fans want to see kick-ass horsepower like we saw with the V10s or for that matter the 1.5Ts. Let Indy go down another dark one-way street, make F1 the high performance channel, I mean sport. :cool:


#18 Ram20

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:36

Just imagine what power the teams could get out of a 1.5 turbo today. Surely 2500+ bhp.


Not really... Modern technology will:

Reduce the frictional losses
Increase flow but not by that much i say
Stronger lighter materials in the turbocharger
Better control systems for the turbo and engine
etc

Among some other things.. In the end you will get some more horsepower but nothing like that amount, You will see improved drive-ability, reliability and improved fuel consumption for sure though.

#19 ViMaMo

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 04:30

The fuel consumption cap could be used to encourage overtaking. Based on the championship standings after first race/previous race

allow 5 litres extra race fuel for pos 4,5,6
allow 10 litres extra race fuel for pos 7,8,9
allow 15 litres extra race fuel for the rest.

Qualifying will be the same. So teams can use extra HP at the cost of extra weight. Needs fine tuning or Bonkers ???!!!

Edited by vivian, 21 April 2010 - 04:32.


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#20 Birelman

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:14

As much fun as that would be, it would be the end of a number of teams. It would very quickly become a matter of which engine manufacturer is willing to spend the most. That would not be good for F1.

Good or not for F1, that's really a big part of F1, weather we like it or not, I for one would love it :)

#21 seahawk

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:33

The obvious advantage of the small turbo is, that many manufactures are building such engines in their road cars today. The downsizing turbo is becoming more and more popular in road cars and some manufacturers do not even built a V8 in their road cars.

Marketing wise it could attract more engine suppliers.

Edited by seahawk, 21 April 2010 - 07:13.


#22 Madras

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:48

If it brings back 1500 HP, it would be great.

Knowing the FIA that won't happen, so we'll probably end up losing the V10 and V8s of the past few years for whats essentially a less powerful, less entertaining 600hp lump that the aero of todays cars can totally overpower.



What??? Firstly there's no way in hell it will be 1500bhp. That's double what today's cars have it would be far too powerful. Secondly what the hell do you mean by aero overpowering the engines?

#23 Madras

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:50

The obvious advantage of the small turbo is, that many manufactures are building such engines in their road cars today. The downsizing turbo is becoming more and more popular in road cars and some naufactures do not even built a V8 in their road cars.

Marketingwise it could attract more engine suppliers.


It should also be more fuel efficient. It will be a smaller engine and require a smaller fuel tank too, making the cars less bulky.

#24 pgj

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:17

Turbo's are green :clap:

#25 pacwest

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:38

I think many of you are forgetting the exotic fuels of the turbo era.

If they bring them back it will be on pump gas - a really big difference.

#26 pacwest

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:41

What??? Firstly there's no way in hell it will be 1500bhp. That's double what today's cars have it would be far too powerful.


The BMW 1.5 litre F1 engine was reported to make 1500. The turbo cars back then would produce wheelspin at frightening levels.

http://racingotaku.w...best-f1-engine/


#27 Stormsky68

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:03

On the downside we will end up with buzzy little engines which will sound I suspect like today's touring cars, hmmmm not totally looking forward to that

On the upside, if driver aids are kept off then it will be fun to see drivers put the power down in the wet when on full boost, sideways early 911 turbo's anyone? Like to see that






#28 pgj

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:34

I think many of you are forgetting the exotic fuels of the turbo era.

If they bring them back it will be on pump gas - a really big difference.


The power output will be nothing like the figures being quoted here.

#29 Mika Mika

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:43

they will make it so that the cars are 750 bhp - or there about....

#30 ArnageWRC

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:52

1500BHP? Man that BMW Turbo gets more powerful every year since its retirement :lol:

Turbos make sense...but it doesn't mean I like them. N/A power is the best sounding type of engine.


Yes, agree, and as a Rallyfan, have to suffer the high torque low revving WRCars.

However, more and more Manufacturers are going to small capacity Turbo cars - shouldn't Motorsport reflect this?


#31 mtknot

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:08

1.5 Litre turbos... with the 80s era boost levels combined with today's technologies it'd be so easy to hit 1.5k HP with less boost.

Edited by mtknot, 21 April 2010 - 08:08.


#32 marcm

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:29

I don't get this fan obsession with bringing back turbos to F1.

The appeal first time around was the mental amounts of power ..... however once you get past that, you had horrific turbo lag, cars set up with massive dialed in understeer, purely to tip toe around the corner so you could get the power down and blast down the next straight. Hugely impressive to watch the best drivers hussle them around, but it had none of the finesse and delicate touch that is required with a normally aspirated engine.

Fast forward to modern day F1 with turbos ... firstly the mental power levels simply won't be allowed. So you end up with a quiet, smaller capacity, low revving engine, with turbo lag (albeit massively improved over the 80s engines - but still it will never be the same as NA). No thank, I'd rather a responsive, high revving, larger capacity motor with 6 - 12 cylinders any day :)

Frankly - the most impressive cars to watch were the late 60s, 70s and early 80s cosworth DFV powered cars. They sound great, but also it was the torquey, responsive characteristics that in part made the cars so easy to drive on the throttle... and sadly that's something we just don't see any more in F1.



#33 FigJam

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:44

I don't get this fan obsession with bringing back turbos to F1.

The appeal first time around was the mental amounts of power ..... however once you get past that, you had horrific turbo lag, cars set up with massive dialed in understeer, purely to tip toe around the corner so you could get the power down and blast down the next straight. Hugely impressive to watch the best drivers hussle them around, but it had none of the finesse and delicate touch that is required with a normally aspirated engine.

Fast forward to modern day F1 with turbos ... firstly the mental power levels simply won't be allowed. So you end up with a quiet, smaller capacity, low revving engine, with turbo lag (albeit massively improved over the 80s engines - but still it will never be the same as NA). No thank, I'd rather a responsive, high revving, larger capacity motor with 6 - 12 cylinders any day :)

Frankly - the most impressive cars to watch were the late 60s, 70s and early 80s cosworth DFV powered cars. They sound great, but also it was the torquey, responsive characteristics that in part made the cars so easy to drive on the throttle... and sadly that's something we just don't see any more in F1.


That's where part of the fan obsession lays. Me included.

The turbo era was sensational in part to the cars and powerful engines. The other part was the sensational pilots which tamed these beasts - Rosberg, Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Senna, Villeneuve, Arnoux, Lauda etc all we're participants in the turbo era and it made for some great racing and truly sensational qualy laps.

The field now is of a high quality at the sharp end. I'd love to see the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, Alonso etc hustling some truly powerful turbo cars around. Whether it would ever happen is another matter. More powerful motors with different numbers of cylinders would be a start.


#34 Stormsky68

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:56

Variable geometry turbo's have done away with much of the lag issues with road cars TBH no reason it can't be scaled up for F1

#35 taran

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:31

Indeed, the car industry is massively embracing downsized engines with turbo technology at the moment. Using (superficially) similar engines in F1 would bring it great kudos. Small turbo engines (or even turbo-hybrid) have a commercially attractive green image.

The only downside is policing them. The FIA used pop-off valves but Honda managed to circumvent them, allowing Williams and subsequently McLaren to cheat their way to titles in 1987 and 1988. Who's to stop anyone from doing so again?

#36 rmac923

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:52

And we would see a "turn the wick down" period which would leave the fans totally confused about what's going on in the race. Economy run = drop off in public interest.

Technology is part of what makes F1 special but not all that makes it special. Fans want to see kick-ass horsepower like we saw with the V10s or for that matter the 1.5Ts. Let Indy go down another dark one-way street, make F1 the high performance channel, I mean sport. :cool:


Ironically, Indy are planning to switch to V4(or is it inline) Turbo engine in 2012. Whenever they introduce the new chassis.

#37 Levike

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:22

What about this ?



#38 Baddoer

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:33

WHat i think will be brilliant is emission restriction for turbo engines. That fits perfectly with "green" concept and surely have effect on maximum power.

#39 ray b

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:08

small diesel turbo's looks to be the modern trend in street cars in europe
want more green? run them on cooking oil

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#40 Madras

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:27

The BMW 1.5 litre F1 engine was reported to make 1500. The turbo cars back then would produce wheelspin at frightening levels.

http://racingotaku.w...best-f1-engine/


I'm well aware of that, so what?

#41 Madras

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:30

small diesel turbo's looks to be the modern trend in street cars in europe
want more green? run them on cooking oil


I dont know anybody who runs their small diesel on cooking oil. Cooking oil seems to have got significantly more expensive recently. And it makes your car smell like a chip shop, gives less power and I'm not sure it's good for the engine long-term.

#42 crbassassin

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:45

i prefer 3.0 liter v12 engine with unlimited rev over the turbo craps

#43 CPR

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 19:21

Whatever engine spec is agreed to, I think we'll still see limitations like 8 engines for the whole season.

That will significantly affect the power / revs of the things by itself... and there'd probably be a specific rev limit too (to prevent Q3 being insane).

#44 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 20:29

I was at the LBGP this last weekend talking with some Honda techs about the 'world' formula vs. the per series as it is today. None of them liked the idea of a 'world' spec engine, to be used for F1, WRC and Indy Car. For the indy cars they want to see it go to a multiple supplier V6 Turbo. One of them, who worked in F1 at one time, really had no opinion other than the 8 engine rule was a joke, and used Alonso as an example. He said the way it looked now, Alonso may have to do 5-6 races at the end of the year on one engine which in his opinion was totally unfair, he may as well sit it out.
He says F1/FIA will listen to everyone, and whatever the consensus is, they will do whatever they want to anyway, so why worry about it.
His belief was that the indy formula right now is a joke it's so old, and that F1 is more an engineering competition than a race series.
Seemed pretty bitter, but that happens I suppose when you've been racing 20+ years as he has.

#45 Lennat

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 22:26

No way he would do 5-6 races on one engine rather than get a ten place penalty and be back to doing a maximum of three races per engine.

#46 Ali_G

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 22:47

Not really... Modern technology will:

Reduce the frictional losses
Increase flow but not by that much i say
Stronger lighter materials in the turbocharger
Better control systems for the turbo and engine
etc

Among some other things.. In the end you will get some more horsepower but nothing like that amount, You will see improved drive-ability, reliability and improved fuel consumption for sure though.



Surely the pressure from the turbo could be upped substantially with engine components being made of modern materials being able to whitstand the increased forces.

#47 Madras

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 23:14

i prefer 3.0 liter v12 engine with unlimited rev over the turbo craps


Well you can dream....

#48 demoing

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:37

The fuel consumption cap could be used to encourage overtaking. Based on the championship standings after first race/previous race

allow 5 litres extra race fuel for pos 4,5,6
allow 10 litres extra race fuel for pos 7,8,9
allow 15 litres extra race fuel for the rest.

Qualifying will be the same. So teams can use extra HP at the cost of extra weight. Needs fine tuning or Bonkers ???!!!

In effect any extra fuel would be lost in needing to turn up the wick on the engine to accelerate that extra weight not to mention also increasing the wear and tare on the engine.
I like the idea of going back to turbo's but unfortunately the cars today even with 1/2 the power are far faster than the 1400HP monsters of yesteryear.
lets compare the 1982 Monaco race to last years
In 1982 Riccardo Patrese won in a time of 1:54:11.259
In 2009 Jenson Button won in a time of 1:40:44.282
And its even worse than it looks as in 82 they only did 76 laps last year they did 78.
Pole position back in the 80's was 5+ seconds slower than Jensons time last year and even the slowest car (Timo Glock 1:16.788) from last year would have beaten Prost's pole time of 1:20.450 by over 3.5 seconds
So you may like them but IMHO they would just be too powerful and we would be back to a point where the we would see drivers losing their lives.


#49 pacwest

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:45

I'm well aware of that, so what?



You need to learn how to post clearly. "What????" is easily and more oftenly mistaken for you not being aware.

#50 roadie

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:32

Now that the car manufacturers are less influential in F1 than they were a few years ago, I believe the importance of F1 to be road relevant is diminished. Although we probably will end up with turbo engines between 1.2 - 1.6 litres in capacity, it would be nice to see F1 as an escape from every day realities, where we do have massively powerful and entertaining NA engines.