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Jenson Button thread


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#151 robefc

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:36

Some of those people aren't even Jenson fans, believe it or not.


Yeah, i'm not sure why i got drawn into that one.

Although I think my point's about button's tyre usage are valid in terms of the perception v reality.

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#152 P123

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:40

Hamilton the best driver?

This is the same Hamilton that struggled to beat Massa 2008?
This is the same Hamilton that being favored at McLaren as "Dennis' boy" and having tested for thousands of miles in the McLaren iin a team he was already in tune with only equalled Alonso in 2007 despite the icing out by McLaren of the Spaniard for most of the season?

Jenson proved his worth long before Brawn. He merely confirmed in 2009 albeit the cognitive dissonance of too many remains. To declare somehow that he "proved" himself in 2010 is offensive.

There is nothing robotic about Jenson's driving. It says a great deal that Brawn priased his driver aside from the results and Jenson's Monte Carlo weekend demonstrated just HOW good this driver is.

Jackie Stewart has also complimented Button on his "economy of movement" at the wheel.

This year the tyre situation does not all give a driver such as Jenson an advantage because the tyres are built to an INferior standard. If it was a situation where pit stop strategy and guessing was not paramount, but the driver had to make his tyres last and only stop when neccessary, then Jenson would indeed be in his element. These days ability to make the tyre last and be quick in a race means nothing. The quality of the tyres are DESIGNED to be rubbish in order to make F1 a carnival show for those with attention deficit disorders.


Massa wasn't in the same team as Hamilton. Maybe criticism of performance is better levelled at Kimi in that regard.

As for the testing mileage, he did a few days in the McLaren before Alonso joined in December '06. Not such a massive advanatage that eradicates all of Alonso's previous experience, so your arguement on that is not particularly rational.

Also stating that Alonso was frozen out of the team for most of the season is incorrect, and also fails to account for his own actions being equally responsible for the break down in the relationship with the team. That said, conspiracy
theorists and excuse seekers such as yourself would do well to take account of Dennis's reaction to Alonso's Nurburgring victory- a race which saw the supposedly favoured Hamilton's championship lead reduced to one point; and also consider McLaren's defence of Alonso to the stewards in Hungary. And also the fact that despite his poor performance in China, his team left his again supposedly favoured teammate out on tyres which had burned through to the canvas, all which directly allowed Alonso to regain all the time he had lost by up to a mammoth 5s per lap...... but no, it's always better to throw about irrational statements and pretend that Alonso lost through no fault of his own.

On to JB, he is of course a brilliant driver and a well deserving champion. But if tyre preservation is his forte, I'd really like to know when it's going to come into play, according to you. Last year the tyres lasted too long, now this year they don't last long enough. What exactly does he need to show this strength of his? As far as I can see the driver still has to makes his tyres last as long as possible and stop as little as possible, so no change there.

#153 ImDDAA

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:46

C'mon, none of that Hamilton bashing was worth replying to, complete bait.

#154 PretentiousBread

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:57

Massa wasn't in the same team as Hamilton. Maybe criticism of performance is better levelled at Kimi in that regard.

As for the testing mileage, he did a few days in the McLaren before Alonso joined in December '06. Not such a massive advanatage that eradicates all of Alonso's previous experience, so your arguement on that is not particularly rational.

Also stating that Alonso was frozen out of the team for most of the season is incorrect, and also fails to account for his own actions being equally responsible for the break down in the relationship with the team. That said, conspiracy
theorists and excuse seekers such as yourself would do well to take account of Dennis's reaction to Alonso's Nurburgring victory- a race which saw the supposedly favoured Hamilton's championship lead reduced to one point; and also consider McLaren's defence of Alonso to the stewards in Hungary. And also the fact that despite his poor performance in China, his team left his again supposedly favoured teammate out on tyres which had burned through to the canvas, all which directly allowed Alonso to regain all the time he had lost by up to a mammoth 5s per lap...... but no, it's always better to throw about irrational statements and pretend that Alonso lost through no fault of his own.

On to JB, he is of course a brilliant driver and a well deserving champion. But if tyre preservation is his forte, I'd really like to know when it's going to come into play, according to you. Last year the tyres lasted too long, now this year they don't last long enough. What exactly does he need to show this strength of his? As far as I can see the driver still has to makes his tyres last as long as possible and stop as little as possible, so no change there.


I think there is a fallacy at play with Button's tyre management, and it's just that, it's tyre 'management' i.e the tyre has a certain amount of life and performance in it and it's how and when you choose to use up this life that is important, as Paddy Lowe has mentioned before and also said that he sees no evidence from the data of any advantage Button has in this regard. It's not like it's tyre 'wizardry' where you cast a spell onto them and make them last longer despite driving just as fast with them as you would otherwise - this is virtually impossible, without sacrificing a load of lap time. e.g. some people positively eulogised about Button's long stint on the options at Abu Dhabi last year, but what did it gain him? He still ended up behind Hamilton who was stuck behind Kubica for an age. It was similarly apparent at Singapore where Hamilton built up roughly a 5 second advantage over Button on the first stint, then duly his tyres went off quicker than Button's, but this only let Button close up by a couple of seconds. It wasn't like it was a hare vs tortoise scenario where the tortoise won - they were both just using up the life of their tyres at different times.

What I see as Button's main asset is his race pace. He is virtually a match for anyone in this department on most days, and has a metronomic consistency to go with it. IMO both this and his wet-weather driving are up there with the very best. It's his inability to wring a bad cars neck and his lack of natural tenacity on the race track where he loses out to guys like Hamilton and Alonso.

#155 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 20:57

Thats what I disagree about. First 7 races were some of the best racing I ever saw produced consistently from a single driver. Schumacher didn't do this in his best days. Senna didn't do that in his best days. Both drivers had dominant cars, and both drivers are now considered as best ever by large group of fans - so I ask you - what's their excuse? Because they were top drivers in dominant cars.

What Jenson did in those 7 races in seriously underrated. And losing to Lewis Hamilton can in no way be greater success than winning WDC - to be honest I think its just a way of making Lewis Hamilton greater than he is.

Also, which drives were really impressive in 2010. by Jenson Button? China is the only one truly impressive in my mind. He was also really good in Canada, Turkey and Australia - but none of those was anything special. In Canada he was beaten by Lewis on pure pace, in Turkey he didn't make his overtaking move on Hamilton stick, in Australia he got pretty lucky with his gamble.

In 2009. he had at least 3-4 mighty impressive races and another 3-4 that were really good ones.


I agree JB had some great races. I suppose what I was getting at is that the top guys don't tighten up as much.

In many ways whether each of us is impressed by Jense in 09 and last year just depends what we expected. I was 'quite' impressed I suppose, in both years he looked like a top 8 driver to me. Somewhere within the top 8 I mean. 4/5/6/7th best arguably, those Webber/Rosberg type guys can all pull out great races in favourable circumstances.

#156 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:01

Or a top-5 driver against a top-3 driver.
Doesn't have quite the same ring to it I suppose.

Well it's different from 5th best and 3rd best. I wouldn't argue against JB being 4th best ATM, probably, Kubi being out of it for the moment.

#157 ImDDAA

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:03

Thats what I disagree about. First 7 races were some of the best racing I ever saw produced consistently from a single driver. Schumacher didn't do this in his best days. Senna didn't do that in his best days. Both drivers had dominant cars, and both drivers are now considered as best ever by large group of fans - so I ask you - what's their excuse? Because they were top drivers in dominant cars.

What Jenson did in those 7 races in seriously underrated. And losing to Lewis Hamilton can in no way be greater success than winning WDC - to be honest I think its just a way of making Lewis Hamilton greater than he is.

Also, which drives were really impressive in 2010. by Jenson Button? China is the only one truly impressive in my mind. He was also really good in Canada, Turkey and Australia - but none of those was anything special. In Canada he was beaten by Lewis on pure pace, in Turkey he didn't make his overtaking move on Hamilton stick, in Australia he got pretty lucky with his gamble.

In 2009. he had at least 3-4 mighty impressive races and another 3-4 that were really good ones.


Fair enough, I just have a slightly different take on it really. I guess in reality 2010 confirmed to me that 2009 wasn't purely because Jenson had the best car, it illuminated his previous season.

#158 ImDDAA

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:06

Well it's different from 5th best and 3rd best. I wouldn't argue against JB being 4th best ATM, probably, Kubi being out of it for the moment.


I'm not convinced that Vettel is any better than Button - I'm not saying he definitely isn't, I just can't tell yet really.

#159 olliek88

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:15

Exactly, Button has a fantastic and underrated quality: he can handle being slower than Hamilton - I can't currently see a good alternative that will be as competitive and egoless as Jenson.

:up:

100% agree, thats why Alonso seemed to implode at times when at Mclaren and why Heikki seemed so down beat towards the end, JB's humility is his greatest asset right now. Alonso, as great a driver as he is, just couldn't compute how a rookie was able to match and at times beat him and Heikki seemed to lose all of his confidence being beaten all most all of the time.

With Jenson though its like water off a ducks back if lewis gets the better of him, he seems so content that he has that WDC and is in a competitive car in with a shout of the title.

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#160 undersquare

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:22

I'm not convinced that Vettel is any better than Button - I'm not saying he definitely isn't, I just can't tell yet really.


I know what you mean, we have more to learn about Sebi. But he's more aggressive than Jense, for sure, so that's one weakness less at least. Strong head, good defence are more plusses, and I don't buy the overtaking weakness. I rate SV above FA, so far, but keeping my mind open.

#161 spacekid

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 21:22

I like Jenson a lot. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Berger (excpet of course Gerhard never had that title shot!) in that he seems like a great guy and a great driver, not quite out of the very top drawer but able to handle that and certainly takes his chances when he gets them.

I always really liked Berger on and off track so I mean this as a compliment!

Edited by spacekid, 01 May 2011 - 21:23.


#162 Buttoneer

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 22:05

Jenson v Lewis is another thread. If you're not discussing Jenson's career, you're off topic.

#163 dave12

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 23:51

Rosberg might although i dont think so
Kobayasi might although i dont think so to Inconsistent
Buemi No chance
Hulkenberg No chance

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#164 gricey1981

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 00:29

:up:

100% agree, thats why Alonso seemed to implode at times when at Mclaren and why Heikki seemed so down beat towards the end, JB's humility is his greatest asset right now. Alonso, as great a driver as he is, just couldn't compute how a rookie was able to match and at times beat him and Heikki seemed to lose all of his confidence being beaten all most all of the time.

With Jenson though its like water off a ducks back if lewis gets the better of him, he seems so content that he has that WDC and is in a competitive car in with a shout of the title.


Thats what driving around in those Honda's does for a man. The WDC and a drive at Mclaren seemed impossible in 07/ 08 then bam WDC and Mclaren Driver. Plus he gets to do rude things to Jessica.

Why wouldn't he be the most content man in the world!

#165 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:33

I like Jenson a lot. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Berger (excpet of course Gerhard never had that title shot!) in that he seems like a great guy and a great driver, not quite out of the very top drawer but able to handle that and certainly takes his chances when he gets them.

I always really liked Berger on and off track so I mean this as a compliment!


I think Button is more than a bit better than Berger, but the analogy is a sound one.

#166 NateF

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 06:58

:up:

100% agree, thats why Alonso seemed to implode at times when at Mclaren and why Heikki seemed so down beat towards the end, JB's humility is his greatest asset right now. Alonso, as great a driver as he is, just couldn't compute how a rookie was able to match and at times beat him and Heikki seemed to lose all of his confidence being beaten all most all of the time.

With Jenson though its like water off a ducks back if lewis gets the better of him, he seems so content that he has that WDC and is in a competitive car in with a shout of the title.


I think whilst Button probably accepts that Hamilton is the faster of the two, I don't think he is content to be beaten by him and in his own words would be 'devastated' if he didn't win the WDC. I think you underplay Button's ambition, he wants to beat Hamilton and win the WDC, and is not just happy to tag along behind Hamilton.

#167 PayasYouRace

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:22

I like Jenson a lot. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Berger (excpet of course Gerhard never had that title shot!) in that he seems like a great guy and a great driver, not quite out of the very top drawer but able to handle that and certainly takes his chances when he gets them.

I always really liked Berger on and off track so I mean this as a compliment!


I get that Berger vibe too. At least, what I know of Gerhard because I only caught the tail end of his career. I think had a season like 2009 come along for him he could have been a popular WDC (like say 1988 with McLaren getting it wrong).

But overall Button and Berger seem to share that basic ability to accept when a teammate is out of reach and set their own personal goals, making them valuable assets to their teams. Compare McLaren 1992 and McLaren 2010 and you get a very similar picture.

#168 tkulla

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:17

I wonder what would have happened had Flavio decided to keep Jenson Button at Renault in 2003 rather than replace him with Alonso and keep Jarno Trulli. As we've since seen, Button was just starting to hit his stride at that point (taking the sport more seriously) so the battle between Jenson and Fernando would have been very interesting. And just two years later they would have been sharing a championship winning car. Of course, I doubt Flavio would have let them duke it out that long (especially being Alonso's manager) but it would have been great to see that direct head-to-head comparison. After Fernando's experience at McLaren, I'm sure he retains a veto power over teammates and he would certainly veto Button (or Hamilton, Vettel, and Rosberg IMO) were talks with Ferrari to get that far.

#169 alframsey

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:17

Sure it was.

+1!!!

The RBR was totally dominant last season and should have wrapped up the title much much sooner than they did, the fact it took until the last race was a result of mistakes and mechanical failures. Vettel and Button share and almost identical career yet Vettel is considered one of the best in F1 currently and Button is not, Button has beat a much better team mate than vettel has (no disrespect to Webber) on many occasions. Stinks of double standards

#170 tkulla

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:44

+1!!!

The RBR was totally dominant last season and should have wrapped up the title much much sooner than they did, the fact it took until the last race was a result of mistakes and mechanical failures. Vettel and Button share and almost identical career yet Vettel is considered one of the best in F1 currently and Button is not, Button has beat a much better team mate than vettel has (no disrespect to Webber) on many occasions. Stinks of double standards


To be fair to Vettel, he came into the sport a much more polished driver than Button at a similar age. Jenson's struggles in those early years are what prevent him from being considered great by many posters here. If 2003 had been his first year (against JV) his reputation now would be a lot better than it is now (that is to say he'd be considered top tier by almost everyone).

#171 flyer121

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 14:53

+1!!!

The RBR was totally dominant last season and should have wrapped up the title much much sooner than they did, the fact it took until the last race was a result of mistakes and mechanical failures. Vettel and Button share and almost identical career yet Vettel is considered one of the best in F1 currently and Button is not, Button has beat a much better team mate than vettel has (no disrespect to Webber) on many occasions. Stinks of double standards


Like who?

#172 alframsey

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:06

Like who?

Erm, some fella called Lewis Hamilton I think...

#173 flyer121

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:09

Erm, some fella called Lewis Hamilton I think...


Did he beat him over a season?

#174 robefc

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:27

Erm, some fella called Lewis Hamilton I think...


He's finished ahead of lewis 5 times when lewis didn't have mechanical issues, out of 22 that's not exactly 'many occasions'...or is it?

#175 bauss

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 15:31

Erm, some fella called Lewis Hamilton I think...


By that logic Webber has beat Vettel, Massa and Piquet beat Alonso, Barichello - Schumacher etc...it is not great logic to put it mildly :lol:

Edited by bauss, 02 May 2011 - 15:32.


#176 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 22:04

Posts moved.

Jenson v Lewis discussion in the appropriate thread please.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=141477

#177 spacekid

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 19:24

To be fair to Vettel, he came into the sport a much more polished driver than Button at a similar age. Jenson's struggles in those early years are what prevent him from being considered great by many posters here. If 2003 had been his first year (against JV) his reputation now would be a lot better than it is now (that is to say he'd be considered top tier by almost everyone).


I'm not so sure about that. Jenson spent a long time at Honda looking about the same as Barrichello, who I don't consider 'top tier'. He did very well against Rubens at the start of '09, but even towards the end of the season Rubens started to match him.

I know the Honda was mostly a pile of poo but in 2007/2008 especially there wasn't much between them. I'm not knocking either driver as such, but I don't think Jenson looked top flight compared to Rubens.

Edited by spacekid, 03 May 2011 - 19:28.


#178 alframsey

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 15:24

By that logic Webber has beat Vettel, Massa and Piquet beat Alonso, Barichello - Schumacher etc...it is not great logic to put it mildly :lol:

Fair enough, didn't really think that one through lol

#179 tkulla

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 16:41

I'm not so sure about that. Jenson spent a long time at Honda looking about the same as Barrichello, who I don't consider 'top tier'. He did very well against Rubens at the start of '09, but even towards the end of the season Rubens started to match him.

I know the Honda was mostly a pile of poo but in 2007/2008 especially there wasn't much between them. I'm not knocking either driver as such, but I don't think Jenson looked top flight compared to Rubens.


Actually, Button finished ahead of Rubens about 60% of the time in their four years as teammates. Not too shabby against a very good driver. Except for Schumacher, none of Barrichello's teammates managed to cross the flag ahead of him more than 50% of the time, including Irvine, Brundle, Verstappen and Herbert.



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#180 farsailor

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 20:54

If 2003 had been his first year (against JV) his reputation now would be a lot better than it is now (that is to say he'd be considered top tier by almost everyone).


If that had been JV at his prime Jenson wouldn't have stood a chance. That's my five cents. Everyone knows Jacques just logged his hours that year and was all on his own in the so called "team", that's why people don't think much of it I think.

#181 Force Ten

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:04

Everyone knows Jacques just logged his hours that year and was all on his own in the so called "team", that's why people don't think much of it I think.

Everyone knows? Really? Did Jacques have a documentary or a tell-all book where he spilt the beans about how lazy he was or something?


#182 zack1994

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:07

If that had been JV at his prime Jenson wouldn't have stood a chance. That's my five cents. Everyone knows Jacques just logged his hours that year and was all on his own in the so called "team", that's why people don't think much of it I think.

i don't agree with that to be honest i think jv hadn't lost any speed, i think the problem was that better drivers came into the sport, and its not like jenson was in his prime either.

#183 Force Ten

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:17

i don't agree with that to be honest i think jv hadn't lost any speed, i think the problem was that better drivers came into the sport, and its not like jenson was in his prime either.

And yet I can't agree with that either. Bouillion was about as fast as Hill in testing. Hill was generally faster than Villeneuve. Frentzen DESTROYED Bouillion in Sauber.

Conclusion #1 - Frentzen should AT LEAST be a match to Villeneuve, but probably be vastly faster than him. Real result - Frentzen won 1 race to Jacques' 7 and Jacques got about double the points of Frentzen.

So. Hill was faster than Villeneuve, that was MUCH faster than Frentzen.

Conclusion #2 - Hill should destroy Frentzen. Real result - Frentzen destroyed Hill and forced him into retirement.

My point is, straight math never works in these situations and working environment is of paramount importance in building driver's confidence and after we strip off all natural variables like sheer talent, experience and such, confidence is the single biggest determining factor in how well the driver performs. Probably the working environment was rather hellish for Villeneuve and Button and Richards got on quite well.



#184 111griff111

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 22:02

I couldn't agree more. this board dumps on Jacques more then any other world champion other then maybe Damon Hill. Lets not forget Richards was forced to keep Jacques that last year and I have never seen a team principal undermine one of its drivers more then the way Richards did to Jacques


#185 tkulla

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 22:12

I couldn't agree more. this board dumps on Jacques more then any other world champion other then maybe Damon Hill. Lets not forget Richards was forced to keep Jacques that last year and I have never seen a team principal undermine one of its drivers more then the way Richards did to Jacques


I've seen no evidence of undermining. The team was desperate for results so there's no way they would have done anything to prevent JV from scoring.

I think that Richards didn't see JV as a good value (he was making Schumi $$$) and Button proved it. That doesn't mean he didn't think JV was a good driver - he just didn't want to sacrifice so much of the team's budget for a driver.

#186 Force Ten

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:26

I've seen no evidence of undermining. The team was desperate for results so there's no way they would have done anything to prevent JV from scoring.

I think that Richards didn't see JV as a good value (he was making Schumi $$$) and Button proved it. That doesn't mean he didn't think JV was a good driver - he just didn't want to sacrifice so much of the team's budget for a driver.

Again, it never is as simple as "equal parts means equal treatment". Jacques may have given exactly the same 'parts' to his car as Button, but it was rather clear that Richards went out of his way never to say anything nice in public about Jacques that year. That will probably affect your confidence sooner or later. The only times we have had of truly equal treatments for driver in past few decades on the very top end of the grid have been Williams 96, Macca 07, the earlier part and Macca 10. The rest, you can always see a slight skew towards one end of the garage or the other.

On a somewhat funny parallel, on the latter part of 2009 it was Ross Brawn that went out of his way to 'not' praise his leading driver all that much. Even after Button clinched his WDC 1 race early and was asked about resigning him it was "umm, gee, I don't know, it's too early to tell, we are not ruling any options out, you know. Of course Button is going to be considered as one of those options, but we must remember there are other capable drivers around as well" - not exactly a glowing review of a performance for a guy that is just about to give your car a nr. 1 on the front plate (and incidentally took a hefty voluntary paycut out off his contract to help keep the team afloat a year before). Well arguably it was hard bargaining and Button just called his bluff. Only after Jenson gave Brawn the snub were they like "awwww all this came like lightning out of clear blue sky, of course we ALWAYS had assumed, that we will keep our relationship with Button. Very disappointing this complete lack of loyalty of some people"

These things can bite both ways. Button probably WOULD have won one of the same races in Merc last year that he did in Mac. Rosberg was ahead of him that race when he went off. Incidentally this is the small part in which ONE race win is more important than 50 podiums - everyone have said that the first win is always the hardest. When you have won you won't get all shaky and panicky anymore when driving in front.

Edited by Force Ten, 05 May 2011 - 09:30.


#187 petef1

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 10:04

Where else would he go?

Why on earth would Jenson leave McLaren? He's finally reached the goal of driving for a top team, there is absolutely no need for him to even consider going anywhere else.

If you told me Jenson was going to drive for McLaren and be a world champion after the 2008 season I would have called you crazy.

I would like to see Jenson sign a new three year deal personally.

#188 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:11

I would argue that Honda could be considered a top team. They were certainly one of the top spenders and top payers, but not top performers.

#189 farsailor

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 19:17

I've seen no evidence of undermining. The team was desperate for results so there's no way they would have done anything to prevent JV from scoring.


Well in race one; Austrailia they called Jacques in 3 laps early for the first stop when Jenson was about 2 seconds behind him. Jacques knew he had fuel left so he refused to pit and then went in on the same lap as Jenson making Jenson wait in the pit behind him. I guess it took 15 or so laps for Richards to show Jacques his place in the "team". Jacques just wouldn't have it.
The radio communication was available on the internet for some time but i can't find it now. It went something like this:

Pit: Pit in this lap Jacques
JV: I can't hear you??
Pit: Pit in this lap, this lap. Box box box
JV: No ****ing way!

JV then stayed out until Jensons pit stop.

Both the team and Jacques claimed after the race it was down to a communication error. And Jenson was furious with Jacques as he should.
Jenson and Jacques are good friends though but they got off to a rough start. :)


#190 dave12

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 19:28

If that had been JV at his prime Jenson wouldn't have stood a chance. That's my five cents. Everyone knows Jacques just logged his hours that year and was all on his own in the so called "team", that's why people don't think much of it I think.

So then does that mean you rate JV as high as Lewis then back in the day?

#191 farsailor

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 19:40

So then does that mean you rate JV as high as Lewis then back in the day?


Different eras. But sure yeah. Look at JVs jacket and the way he drove the shit out of the cars. Actually JVs career and Lewis were quite similair the first three seasons. Lewis then stayed with a top team, JV as we all know went a different path. But it's impossible to say. JV was harmed when the slick tyres were banned and is would I say more of an old school driver. But even around 2001-2002 JV was considerd a top driver and was doing great considering the cars he drove, people tend to forget that. And as mentioned. JV was second best payed after Schumacher 2003.

Edited by farsailor, 05 May 2011 - 19:45.


#192 pyrot

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 21:53

I wonder what would have happened had Flavio decided to keep Jenson Button at Renault in 2003 rather than replace him with Alonso and keep Jarno Trulli. As we've since seen, Button was just starting to hit his stride at that point (taking the sport more seriously) so the battle between Jenson and Fernando would have been very interesting. And just two years later they would have been sharing a championship winning car. Of course, I doubt Flavio would have let them duke it out that long (especially being Alonso's manager) but it would have been great to see that direct head-to-head comparison. After Fernando's experience at McLaren, I'm sure he retains a veto power over teammates and he would certainly veto Button (or Hamilton, Vettel, and Rosberg IMO) were talks with Ferrari to get that far.



What veto power are you talking about? the one you just made up? No evidence of that at all, so please stop making silly things up. Alonso would not be allowed to have that power even if he wanted it. As for Button vs Alonso at Renault, it would not have been a battle because Button would have been dominated. Button fans are really getting carried away these days. This is a guy that in 2009, his wc year, only barely beat Rubens barrichello because of superior reliablity, and your suggesting 5 years prior, he would have 'duked' it out with Alonso? He would have been outqualified in almost every session and dominated because Alonso does everything better than Button, so the advantage he sometimes holds over hamilton would not happen against Alonso. Another thing is that The current regulations of no refueling have flattered Buttons speed in the last two years because the drivers are not flat out 100% of the time, but back 5 or 6 years ago he would not have had that luxury.

Button is a good driver, better than i thought but hes still not in the same class as the very best of the sport. He simply lacks the raw speed.

Edited by pyrot, 06 May 2011 - 22:57.


#193 frp

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 00:18

As for Button vs Alonso at Renault, it would not have been a battle because Button would have been dominated...
...He would have been outqualified in almost every session and dominated because Alonso does everything better than Button...
...He simply lacks the raw speed.

Well...
Trulli, on average, qualified a place ahead of Button at Renault throughout 2002. He also, on average, qualified about a place ahead of Alonso at Renault throught 2003/04. On that evidence, inconclusive as it may be, it probably would have been interesting to see how Alonso and Button compared had they teamed up at Renault in 2003. It's difficult to see where any conclusion that Alonso would assuredly have dominated Button comes from.

For what very little it's worth, I've always regarded them both as first-rate drivers.

#194 dave12

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 00:22

Well...
Trulli, on average, qualified a place ahead of Button at Renault throughout 2002. He also, on average, qualified about a place ahead of Alonso at Renault throught 2003/04. On that evidence, inconclusive as it may be, it probably would have been interesting to see how Alonso and Button compared had they teamed up at Renault in 2003. It's difficult to see where any conclusion that Alonso would assuredly have dominated Button comes from.

For what very little it's worth, I've always regarded them both as first-rate drivers.

:up:

#195 tkulla

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:15

Well...
Trulli, on average, qualified a place ahead of Button at Renault throughout 2002. He also, on average, qualified about a place ahead of Alonso at Renault throught 2003/04. On that evidence, inconclusive as it may be, it probably would have been interesting to see how Alonso and Button compared had they teamed up at Renault in 2003. It's difficult to see where any conclusion that Alonso would assuredly have dominated Button comes from.

For what very little it's worth, I've always regarded them both as first-rate drivers.


They also both managed to outscore Trulli in those seasons without much trouble. For the record, I think Jarno is a Q specialist that was as good as anyone in that regard. Just average in the races though, unlike Button and Alonso, who both haveamazing pace and consistency in races.

#196 Menace

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:27

They also both managed to outscore Trulli in those seasons without much trouble. For the record, I think Jarno is a Q specialist that was as good as anyone in that regard. Just average in the races though, unlike Button and Alonso, who both haveamazing pace and consistency in races.



What does that make Heikki!!! :eek:





:lol:





#197 velgajski1

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 10:21

What veto power are you talking about? the one you just made up? No evidence of that at all, so please stop making silly things up. Alonso would not be allowed to have that power even if he wanted it. As for Button vs Alonso at Renault, it would not have been a battle because Button would have been dominated. Button fans are really getting carried away these days. This is a guy that in 2009, his wc year, only barely beat Rubens barrichello because of superior reliablity, and your suggesting 5 years prior, he would have 'duked' it out with Alonso? He would have been outqualified in almost every session and dominated because Alonso does everything better than Button, so the advantage he sometimes holds over hamilton would not happen against Alonso. Another thing is that The current regulations of no refueling have flattered Buttons speed in the last two years because the drivers are not flat out 100% of the time, but back 5 or 6 years ago he would not have had that luxury.

Button is a good driver, better than i thought but hes still not in the same class as the very best of the sport. He simply lacks the raw speed.


Where did you get this from? Alonso was beaten by Hamilton in his rookie season, Button was beaten by Hamilton when Hamilton has had 3 years of F1 experience by one race win points (26 points in new system - and I'm sure Hamilton was much better driver in 2010. than in 2007., albeit with a bit worse car).

Also, did Alonso ever teamed up with Rubens so you could so conclusively say that Alonso would thrash Rubens? I'm sorry, but if you look Alonso performance in last 4 seasons you can see that he is a brilliant on his good day, but extremely inconsistent driver - not a shadow of Alonso from 2005/2006 consistency-wise and I'm quite sure that Alonso would have been beaten by Button in 2010. had they been teammates.

I presume Alonso would have beaten Button back in Renault, but by a fairly small margin - Alonso was great back then.

Edited by velgajski1, 07 May 2011 - 10:23.


#198 glorius&victorius

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:14

Jenson cannot be that naive to talk to the Guardian and say such things.... he is polling his options at Ferrari?

http://www.guardian....ari-formula-one

until when is his contract with McLaren? Maybe the team is (wishful thinking on my part) interested in a certain Japanese driver out there.

Edited by glorius&victorius, 28 May 2011 - 06:16.


#199 peroa

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:22

2012, same as Lewis.

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#200 velgajski1

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:28

Seems that drivers are aware that McLaren is in fairly weaker negotiation position. I can see RBR wanting to snatch Lewis, and with Button mentioning Ferrari - I can see it happening. He's way better than Massa, seems to handle losing to faster driver quite well, and in right circumstances he's proven he can consistently win races and titles. Only potential problem for Ferrari would be if Button is too good and starts beating Alonso.

Maybe both Hamilton and Button just want more $$$, but who knows, maybe Button really wants to take this hat-trick of teams :)

Edited by velgajski1, 28 May 2011 - 06:31.