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Jenson Button thread


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#2851 ermo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:31

And you think Ross Brawn of all people is the thing that kept Michael from getting the better of Nico?.


I only implied that Ross Brawn is likely to have had a positive influence on Nico. I never said he kept Schumacher from getting the better of Nico. Nico is still learning and developing. Schumacher is clearly at the end of his career and is not the racer he was in his prime. Not much anyone can do about that.

Also, JB got his first win under the guiding hand of one just instated Shuhei Nakamoto, the man responsible of the brilliant Earth car the following year.


When Jenson won his 113th race in Hungary in changing conditions, he certainly didn't have the fastest car in the field. It was more like 4th fastest (Ferrari, McLaren and Renault being the 3 cars ahead on dry pace). With Brawn, he started out with the fastest car for at least the 1st part of the season. On that day at the Hungaroring in 2006, ISTR that 1) Kimi (polesitter) crashed out of the lead. 2) Schumacher was all over the place on his wet/intermediate Bridgestones and ultimately retired. 3) Alonso pulled off with an incorrectly fitted wheel nut while being in the lead, which robbed us of a straight fight between him and Jenson. Jenson drove a great, opportunistic race to put himself in that position, of course. When Alonso crashed out, all of Jenson's major competitors were out of contention and all he needed to do was to keep it clean, stay on the track and do consistent laptimes in changing conditions, which played to his strengths last I checked. The podium was made up of Jenson, Pedro de la Rosa and Nick Heidfeld, so not a typical podium of that season. In general, I was very impressed by Jenson's 2nd part of 2006. I remember when he finished 3rd on the podium in Brazil, that it was almost like he was the invisible man as the cameras were inevitably focusing on Massa and Alonso as I recall.

In terms of Shuhei Nakamoto's influence, the crucial difference is that Shuhei Nakamoto never guided Jenson (or indeed the Honda F1 team) anywhere but into the ground. Under Ross Brawn, Jenson became WDC and the team became WCC after 3 years (Ross was hired sometime during 2007 IIRC). Ross Brawn has taken 3 different manufacturers to world championships (Benetton, Ferrari and Brawn), which I have a hard time believing to be pure coincidence. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he succeds in adding Mercedes to that list. But ok, perhaps I'm overstating Brawn's influence on Jenson a little. On the other hand, the man is highly regarded for his technical and leadership skills by those who have worked with him, so I have no doubt that it must have had at least some influence on Jenson.

But let's summarize: I started out with posting something which irked you. You pounced on that which is fair enough. Since then, I've tried to give my initial post some additional nuance. If you don't agree, let's agree to disagree. I'm unlikely to change my opinion that Ross Brawn had a positive influence on Jenson Button and helped him unlock his WDC potential, just as I'm unlikely to change my opinion that going up against Lewis Hamilton for three years at McLaren will have forced Jenson to be at the absolute top of his game and thus made him reach his full potential as a racing driver. Jenson has driven some fantastic races at McLaren, among which the Canadian GP last year, Suzuka last year and Spa this year are among my favourites. In Canada, he took out both Lewis and Fernando on his way to the win in a wet race, but at Spa (where. let's not forget, he took his first pole with McLaren) and at Suzuka, he won in the dry. Most non-fans would probably have laughed you out if you'd told them this would happen, even at the end of 2009 (not me, though, I always believed that he had it in him).

Edited by ermo, 06 November 2012 - 11:36.


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#2852 ermo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:57

Speaking of tyres: Is it just me or has Jenson displayed a preference for the harder tyres at many race weekends this season?

#2853 peroa

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:10

Speaking of tyres: Is it just me or has Jenson displayed a preference for the harder tyres at many race weekends this season?

They're easier to get into the zone.

#2854 BillBald

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:13

Speaking of tyres: Is it just me or has Jenson displayed a preference for the harder tyres at many race weekends this season?


I think you are right. Whereas in 2011, he seemed to do very well on the soft and supersoft.

Maybe the softer tyres this year are harder to keep in the temperature window.



#2855 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:24

Yeah but I've been reading that for 9 years straight now, in theory changes in F1 tend to suit Jenson, it just doesn't often work out that simply.

This article, despite misleading title, ironically says everything I wanted to say anyway. Funny to see he's echoing my previous posts.


Yeah, I know :)

"Surely Honda will get it right this year" etc

#2856 Force Ten

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:09

I only implied that Ross Brawn is likely to have had a positive influence on Nico. I never said he kept Schumacher from getting the better of Nico. Nico is still learning and developing. Schumacher is clearly at the end of his career and is not the racer he was in his prime. Not much anyone can do about that.

Nah, my point is that if Ross was trying to give anyone a positive influence, especially the race winning kind, he would have done it to Schumacher. These two go ways back. That implies that the influence of a team boss in racing drivers personal performance is a bit less than maybe expected. Martin Whitmarsh never had any particular influence over Heikki Kovalainen for instance.

Under Ross Brawn, Jenson became WDC and the team became WCC after 3 years (Ross was hired sometime during 2007 IIRC). Ross Brawn has taken 3 different manufacturers to world championships (Benetton, Ferrari and Brawn), which I have a hard time believing to be pure coincidence.

Ross, while being ONE important person in the Benetton and Ferrari teams was not a team principal in either of them. All credit to him when Super Aguri (yes, it was them NOT the Ross Brawn led main team) stumbled on a DDD design for pursuing it. Also, apparently it was the most expensive design of a formula one car in the history with the most resources devoted to it in all history of the sport. They produced a car that was fastest at the beginning of the season, after that his record has been less than stellar. The updates made the car slower and no good car has been produced by the same group of people since then. The jury is still out on him as a team principal.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he succeds in adding Mercedes to that list. But ok, perhaps I'm overstating Brawn's influence on Jenson a little. On the other hand, the man is highly regarded for his technical and leadership skills by those who have worked with him, so I have no doubt that it must have had at least some influence on Jenson.

Sure, but Jenson has worked under Frank Williams/Patrick Head, Flavio Briatore/Pat Symonds, David Richards and Head, Briatore and Richards are some of the toughest sumbi***es in the sport. I am rather sure that they all had at least a token of influence in JB-s development. Along with Ross Brawn.

But let's summarize: I started out with posting something which irked you. You pounced on that which is fair enough. Since then, I've tried to give my initial post some additional nuance. If you don't agree, let's agree to disagree.

What irks me is that you grossly oversimplify. All of your statements kinda have a bit of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" argument in them. (Happened after therefore because of it). You pick the easiest and most visible part in the HUGE and very complicated puzzle and make it being all of it and end of it. Brawn brought the team (no, he didn't , he was one and the MOST VISIBLE buyer of the team, plus Honda funded the whole operation for that year to save face) => Team and Button wins WDC => therefore Ross Brawn personally made JB win the WDC. It sorta reminds me the fistfight that was going on after Canada that for one or two meetings the members of Lewis' team (my best guess is 3 people of all of maybe 500) were pulled to analyze and compare data with JB's engineers, apparently the result of the meeting was that the whole McLaren operation veered off track. Who's to blame? Of course, easy, Jenson!

It's a bit more complicated than that.

#2857 ermo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:21

(...)
What irks me is that you grossly oversimplify. All of your statements kinda have a bit of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" argument in them. (Happened after therefore because of it). You pick the easiest and most visible part in the HUGE and very complicated puzzle and make it being all of it and end of it.
(...)
It's a bit more complicated than that.


Noted and accepted.

#2858 PARAZAR

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:12

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.



#2859 sofarapartguy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:29

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.


2:00 is my favorite - yes, Jaques had a problems, but still it is on the outside of Pouhon.

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#2860 Lazy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:40

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.


nice


#2861 Rocket73

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:25

great vid

#2862 BillBald

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 13:33

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.


I'm having a lot of trouble viewing this, even at lowest quality.



#2863 Dalton007

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 14:22

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.



Nice - and clean moves. :up: Is Jenson the only driver to pressure Vettel into mistakes? I remember Turkey 09 and Canada 11. :)

#2864 peroa

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 14:53

Button said he would be taking all relevant precautions, as he did last year. “We are having armoured vehicles and a police escort,” the 2009 world champion said. “We had them last year after what happened the year before. I have them as do Lewis and Whippy [McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh].”

http://www.telegraph...Interlagos.html

Really? Is that a new nickname?

#2865 andrewf1

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 15:14

Nice - and clean moves. :up: Is Jenson the only driver to pressure Vettel into mistakes? I remember Turkey 09 and Canada 11. :)


Vettel also faulted under Lewis' pressure at Hungary 11. But im sure there are other drivers too, i wouldnt really hold the amount of times Vettel makes mistakes because of pressure as a barometer. Im sure he's had it rough at times in his Torro Rosso days too.

#2866 PARAZAR

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 16:19

http://www.telegraph...Interlagos.html

Really? Is that a new nickname?


Whippy? Hahaha! :rotfl:

#2867 PNSD

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 21:17

JB had his annual meal for British journalists yesterday. Got some good kudos from Brundle :)

Nice to see JB keeping it up. Really knows how to treat the right people well.

#2868 PNSD

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 21:17

JB had his annual meal for British journalists yesterday. Got some good kudos from Brundle :)

Nice to see JB keeping it up. Really knows how to treat the right people well.

#2869 thesham01

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:21

JB had his annual meal for British journalists yesterday. Got some good kudos from Brundle :)

Nice to see JB keeping it up. Really knows how to treat the right people well.


And they know how to return the favour.

Speaking of; do people not think it's a little much calling Button McLarens #1 next year, given their very vocal equality policy. Do you think he will be #1, or is it the media just hyping Button?

#2870 bub

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:07

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.


:up: Nice


Speaking of; do people not think it's a little much calling Button McLarens #1 next year, given their very vocal equality policy. Do you think he will be #1, or is it the media just hyping Button?


I was thinking about this the other day. Wasn't Hamilton pretty much the number 1 driver when Heikki was there? Similar thing could happen with Button/Perez or after a certain number of races focus could switch to the leading driver. You can't really have a #1 and #2 with Button and Hamilton but with Button/Perez it would make sense.

#2871 Sinceref189

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:17

I was thinking about this the other day. Wasn't Hamilton pretty much the number 1 driver when Heikki was there? Similar thing could happen with Button/Perez or after a certain number of races focus could switch to the leading driver. You can't really have a #1 and #2 with Button and Hamilton but with Button/Perez it would make sense.

:up:

Edited by Sinceref189, 23 November 2012 - 12:19.


#2872 Dalton007

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:26

And they know how to return the favour.

Speaking of; do people not think it's a little much calling Button McLarens #1 next year, given their very vocal equality policy. Do you think he will be #1, or is it the media just hyping Button?


Button has said it himself. He's got two months with the engineers before Perez joins. :)

Edited by Dalton007, 23 November 2012 - 15:26.


#2873 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:38

A collection of some of Jenson's overtakes over the years. 10:21, Jenson's overtake on Alonso while holding his helmet with one hand. I was looking for that one.


Pass on Massa around the outside into Pouhon in Belgium 2005 :up:

He had big pace advantage but still impressive.

#2874 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 15:39

Pass on Massa around the outside into Pouhon in Belgium 2005 :up:

He had big pace advantage but still impressive.


It was Villeneuve but yes, fantastic move :up:

#2875 Lazy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:59

Interesting that he was right on the pace with next years tyres in fp1 but now they're back on this years tyres he's struggling a bit.

#2876 Fox1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:05

I was thinking about this the other day. Wasn't Hamilton pretty much the number 1 driver when Heikki was there? Similar thing could happen with Button/Perez or after a certain number of races focus could switch to the leading driver. You can't really have a #1 and #2 with Button and Hamilton but with Button/Perez it would make sense.

:up:

Actually I think you can. McLaren have done so in the past, but it would never happen under the current structure. Example being Senna/Berger or even Mika/DC; all very competent drivers, but everyone knew who the stronger driver was.

#2877 Clatter

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:08

And they know how to return the favour.

Speaking of; do people not think it's a little much calling Button McLarens #1 next year, given their very vocal equality policy. Do you think he will be #1, or is it the media just hyping Button?


I think it's fairly obvious that he will be considered the #1, that doesn't mean the drivers will not be treated equally, just that the expectations on JB will be higher.

#2878 BillBald

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:45

Interesting that he was right on the pace with next years tyres in fp1 but now they're back on this years tyres he's struggling a bit.


Apparently Jenson was messing around with a low downforce setup, at least early in the session.

What was that about? It's most likely going to rain on Sunday.

It was in Austin where he needed a low downforce setup, for coming through the field.

His engineers really seem to need that winter rest.



#2879 Dalton007

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 19:55

Apparently Jenson was messing around with a low downforce setup, at least early in the session.

What was that about? It's most likely going to rain on Sunday.

It was in Austin where he needed a low downforce setup, for coming through the field.

His engineers really seem to need that winter rest.


His long pace on the low downforce was quick, but not so good over one lap. High downforce is the only route for Jenson this weekend.

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#2880 tkulla

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:03

Brazil is a great race, but I can't help but think about next year a bit because I've just got a great feeling about how it will go (kind of feels like 2009 a little). He's the de facto #1 driver (I think Perez will find it difficult to match his pace, never mind his leadership), the tyres should be coming towards his style a bit (less warmup and front/rear temp balance problems), and I'd imagine the team will optimize their brakes for his Brembo preference since Sergio is also a Brembo guy (McLaren is using CI brakes for both cars this year AFAIK).

#2881 Rocket73

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:30

Apparently Jenson was messing around with a low downforce setup, at least early in the session.

What was that about? It's most likely going to rain on Sunday.

It was in Austin where he needed a low downforce setup, for coming through the field.

His engineers really seem to need that winter rest.


it seems like a strange set up defo...maybe they are just experimenting...fp3 should tell us more

#2882 Lazy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:06

Jenson explains wing difference

Team principal Martin Whitmarsh said Button would be reverting to Hamilton's rear wing set-up from FP3 onwards.

"I think Lewis had the right set-up today," Whitmarsh said. "We tried something on Jenson's car which once you're in to it for the second session you couldn't go back because the gear ratios were fixed for that. So we got some good data but nothing that really helps Jenson for this weekend."

#2883 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:27

Apparently Jenson was messing around with a low downforce setup, at least early in the session.

What was that about? It's most likely going to rain on Sunday.

It was in Austin where he needed a low downforce setup, for coming through the field.

His engineers really seem to need that winter rest.


How would Jenson have known in practice in Austin where he would qualify and thus what set up he'd ideally need?

As for practice yesterday, they were collecting some data for the winter. What you were watching yesterday for teams not in the title hunt was effectively a per winter test.



#2884 Rinehart

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:32

Brazil is a great race, but I can't help but think about next year a bit because I've just got a great feeling about how it will go (kind of feels like 2009 a little). He's the de facto #1 driver (I think Perez will find it difficult to match his pace, never mind his leadership), the tyres should be coming towards his style a bit (less warmup and front/rear temp balance problems), and I'd imagine the team will optimize their brakes for his Brembo preference since Sergio is also a Brembo guy (McLaren is using CI brakes for both cars this year AFAIK).


Agree with all that except the choice of brakes is related to what works with the tyres, rather than the car, as I understand it.

But definitely I think the car will be much towards JBs preference. I think an eggs in one basket policy is the way that Mclaren will negate the loss of Lewis.


Edited by Rinehart, 24 November 2012 - 08:32.


#2885 Dalton007

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:02

Good work from Jenson in FP3. Hope that form carries into Quali. :)

#2886 BillBald

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:50

How would Jenson have known in practice in Austin where he would qualify and thus what set up he'd ideally need?

As for practice yesterday, they were collecting some data for the winter. What you were watching yesterday for teams not in the title hunt was effectively a per winter test.


In Austin, Jenson should have been started from pitlane, his setup was hopeless for overtaking. He had to overtake both Williams cars repeatedly, they just breezed by him on the straight. In fact, in the early stages, he had a lot of trouble holding off the TRs.

As for Brazil, it's starting to look as though McLaren are gambling on a race which is mainly dry, but even so they definitely went too far on Jenson's car. They are out of the title hunt, but still want to beat Ferrari in WCC.






#2887 amppatel

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:55

Good work from Jenson in FP3. Hope that form carries into Quali. :)


Yea, it would be pretty painful for Hamilton if JB got pole today :( But to be fair JB looked faster!

#2888 Dalton007

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:05

Yea, it would be pretty painful for Hamilton if JB got pole today :( But to be fair JB looked faster!


Lewis will be up there too. :up:

#2889 Will

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:12

Lewis will be up there too. :up:


Indeed there have been a few FP3s this year where Button has been faster only for Lewis to pull it out of the bag in Q3, so no counting chickens yet but it will be close as Button likes the 'balance' at the moment!

#2890 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 16:58

FFS

#2891 Lazy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:04

Robbery.

#2892 Fastcake

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:10

Button and Hulkenberg might of even lapped the field today. Such a shame :cry:

#2893 Force Ten

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:16

Utterly pissed.

#2894 sofarapartguy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:33

Robbed - gifted back :rotfl:

#2895 drunkenmaster

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:17

Great race, thank you for winning today Jenson Button!  ;)

#2896 Dalton007

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:20

AWESOME! Loved the battle with Lewis! FCUK (the brand, not the swear word) YEAH!

#2897 Fastcake

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:37

So happy Button got this win back! I do think he would of got back past Hulkenberg and won the race almost a lap ahead if it wasn't for the safety car. At least he won in the end, almost Canada 2011-esque, so I'm a happy chap :D :clap:

#2898 Lights

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:46

He drove brilliantly today, utterly deserved the victory. Bit disappointing pace at times, but that's part of classic Jenson. Changing conditions is still his thing and he was the only driver out there to not make any mistakes today. A fantastic end to the season for him, gives me a bit of hope for 2013.

#2899 Dalton007

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:05

2013 can't come fast enough. Jenson will be up there fighting for the WDC.

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#2900 Peter Perfect

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:08

AWESOME! Loved the battle with Lewis! FCUK (the brand, not the swear word) YEAH!

:up: The way they swapped back and forth was great, with never a hint that one would run the other off the track or collide.