Jump to content


Photo

1960 Cuban FJ race - Dagrada Lancia


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 hatrat

hatrat
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:14

On 24 February 1960 a race for Formula Junior cars was held in Cuba. A photo of the grid (or part of the grid) is below. Some queries : does anyone have a listing of entrants and results and was there a follow-up race held in 1961? I am trying to determine if a Dagrada Lancia Formula Junior ran in these races so any additional information on these cars would be appreciated. The period (1960/61/62) Dragada drivers I can find are, Jerry Titus, Alan Lance, John Max Wolfe, George Constantine, Paul O'Shea, Edna Sherman, Bud Morley, Robert Keyes, Joe Buzzetta and Pratt.

Posted Image

Advertisement

#2 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,895 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:32

It would be very interesting if some or all of these cars and drivers could be identified.

#3 CoulthardD

CoulthardD
  • Member

  • 207 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:33

Some details of the 1960 race here.

DC

#4 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:38

The same site does not list a 1961 Cuba race

#5 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,895 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:40

I looked there, but never spotted the fact that there were three separate sets of results for 1960! :blush:

#6 silicanza

silicanza
  • Member

  • 59 posts
  • Joined: October 06

Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:35

Angelo Bianco was apparently driving a Dagrada Lancia #33 and Juan Manuel Bordeu in a Dagrada Lancia #34

Neither race number is decipherable in the photo, however the cars 2nd and third from the left are the best candidates. The large round Dagrada Lancia badge are evident on both cars nose cowlings. Also slightly different screens shape, carburetor intake cover from the hoard of Stanguellini's that made up most of the field.

judging by the number of photographers along either side of the start grid, there may be photos of the cars from different angles available.

Edited by silicanza, 29 April 2010 - 09:36.


#7 hatrat

hatrat
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:10

Thanks for the results link - pity it does not have the car race numbers. There appear to be many Stanguellini and I think car #11 (just to the left of #40) is the Gemini of Duncan Forlong (this car is now in New Zealand).

#8 Gabrci

Gabrci
  • Member

  • 441 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:26

The second car on the left, dark car with white helmet is I believe Roberto Lippi.

#9 VAR1016

VAR1016
  • Member

  • 2,825 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 April 2010 - 17:27

Interesting car the Dagrada Lancia; about 100BHP at 7000 or so - very fair going for a two-bearing crankshaft!

And what an amazing noise!

#10 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 29 April 2010 - 18:55

Interesting car the Dagrada Lancia; about 100BHP at 7000 or so - very fair going for a two-bearing crankshaft!

Ah, those famous Italian cavallini again :)

Edited by David McKinney, 29 April 2010 - 18:55.


#11 VAR1016

VAR1016
  • Member

  • 2,825 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 April 2010 - 20:40

Ah, those famous Italian cavallini again :)


Ha ha - well it was 1960!

Actually I thought that the car (in the video I linked to) sounded like a small D50. Dagrada's modifications were very interesting - especially to Lancia V4 enthusiasts; sadly not practical or indeed possible, on a Fulvia!

#12 hatrat

hatrat
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:49

Another link to "the" sound : http://picasaweb.goo...451158559091250

#13 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,128 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:47

The same site does not list a 1961 Cuba race

Don't recall any motor racing in Cuba being reported since 1960.Guess those FJ races were supports to sports car race reported at the time?

#14 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,420 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 April 2010 - 17:32

Originally posted by VAR1016
Ha ha - well it was 1960!

Actually I thought that the car (in the video I linked to) sounded like a small D50. Dagrada's modifications were very interesting - especially to Lancia V4 enthusiasts; sadly not practical or indeed possible, on a Fulvia!


And I've got nagging doubts about them for FJr...

I always understood that there was no 'addition of metal' under those rules, that the block and heads could only be modified by the removal of metal after all factory machining had been completed.

Or am I wrong?

But inventive to be sure. I wonder if they laid the groundwork for Kevin Catt's Lambda modifications that led to him winning the first ever Historic race at Warwick Farm? He transposed inlet and exhausts on that engine.

#15 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,420 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 April 2010 - 18:11

I can see a 35 here, but no 34:

Posted Image

#16 VAR1016

VAR1016
  • Member

  • 2,825 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 April 2010 - 19:39

And I've got nagging doubts about them for FJr...

I always understood that there was no 'addition of metal' under those rules, that the block and heads could only be modified by the removal of metal after all factory machining had been completed.

Or am I wrong?

But inventive to be sure. I wonder if they laid the groundwork for Kevin Catt's Lambda modifications that led to him winning the first ever Historic race at Warwick Farm? He transposed inlet and exhausts on that engine.



Ha ha! Well I don't know the rules - but it seems to me that Signor Dagrada preferred the removal of metal rather than the opposite!

And I would be interested to hear more about the Lambda.

Paul

#17 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 54,420 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:28

But he had to add metal to change the porting the way he did...

The Catt Lancia had two inlet valves and one exhaust per cylinder instead of the other way round.

#18 hatrat

hatrat
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:30

I can see a 35 here, but no 34:

Posted Image


I have just found a list of entrants for the two Cuban FJ races (held on 24 and 28 February 1960) and the numbers are just consecutive numbers given to the listing not race numbers. Accordingly I don't think the two Dagradas were actually car numbers 33 and 34.

With regards to Ray Bell's "addition of metal" under period FJ rules, the requirement was that the cylinder head had to be that of a engine belonging to a car classed by the FIA in the Touring category. I assume this meant you had to use a standard head. However in "modern" FJ racing the boundaries started to get pushed and this has required much more detailed rules which technically disallows the addition of metal to the cylinder heads (although this rules appears to be regularly breached). Interestingly, the period FJ rules amounted to not much more than one page while the modern FJ rules (trying to maintain adherence to the period rules) amount to 20 pages!!

#19 wenoopy

wenoopy
  • Member

  • 611 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 01 May 2010 - 11:50

I have just found a list of entrants for the two Cuban FJ races (held on 24 and 28 February 1960) and the numbers are just consecutive numbers given to the listing not race numbers. Accordingly I don't think the two Dagradas were actually car numbers 33 and 34.


My ageing eyes cannot pick out any odd numbers in the picture, only even ones. This was often the case in European races in the '50's and '60s, possibly to avoid unlucky 13's and 17's, and the Formula Juniors would likely have come as a package deal from Italy, as 8 of the 19 Stanguellinis were entered by Scuderia Madunina, which was run by Fangio's ex-manager Marcello Giambertone, and the 2 races were apparently part of the Italian FJ Championship (according to the F2 Register site). Conversely, however, car numbers in the Cuban GP for sports cars (on 28 February 1960) were both odd and even.

I assume the picture is the entire field of one of the 2 races, and of the 21 cars, 16 are Stanguellinis, with their offset driving position and distinctive air scoop. This leaves only the Gemini with its coil-spring/shock absorber rear end, and 4 other cars, which all seem to have a symmetrical layout, as did the Dagrada Lancia, according to an on-line restored-car photo. These 4 could be Dagrada, de Sanctis, Foglietti, or Wainer going by the F2 Register list, but your list may be different. Anyhow, I can't see any obvious distinctions between the 4 cars.