137 replies to this topic

[Belmondo]

Was interested to see 442 PPP racing again in the last couple of years. Used to watch this car in the mid-80s, when it was green & yellow and had odd bodywork. Now rebuilt with standard knobbly body.

[TEDD]

The car was dark blue when owned by Charvoz and Milrace, then BRG when owned by Quick. Flat black in color when raced by Dagiel. When MacArthur owned the car it was once again BRG in color. Had broad yellow stripe in the Silverman years.

Car has been extensively discussed in other threads on this forum. Todd Dagiel, Dick's son, has contributed info to the discussion.

Tom

Hi Tom, close on the colors ,
The car was dark blue? when owned by Charvoz, ? Milrace , Metalic Blue when owned by / purchased from Quick. Black (not flat) when raced by Rich Dagiel. When MacArthur owned the car it was always a shade of BRG in color. Had a Yellow Lister stripe added in the Silverman years. and is now raced by Tom Malloy painted Blue with a Yellow Lister stripe and running Halibrand wheels. Ted D not Todd

[Ted Walker]

422PPP was NEVER a Jaguar powered car. It started life as a Lister MG and "cloned" in the 70s.

[Sharman]

Just received August Motor Sport, in it is advertised Lister-Jaguar BHL3 (2), 40 years 0f history it says "in the USA"

[RA Historian]

Hi Tom, close on the colors ,
The car was dark blue? when owned by Charvoz, ? Milrace , Metalic Blue when owned by / purchased from Quick. Black (not flat) when raced by Rich Dagiel. When MacArthur owned the car it was always a shade of BRG in color. Had a Yellow Lister stripe added in the Silverman years. and is now raced by Tom Malloy painted Blue with a Yellow Lister stripe and running Halibrand wheels. Ted D not Todd

Sorry Ted, somewhere along the line I got 'Todd' on the brain. Close on the colors, not bad for 50 years!

Will you be at the KIC next week at Road America?

Tom

[Belmondo]

422PPP was NEVER a Jaguar powered car. It started life as a Lister MG and "cloned" in the 70s.

Interesting. I asked the owner about the car at Silverstone a couple of years ago and he was decidedly unforthcoming.

[Ted Walker]

If its the same owner he was most put out when I showed him some photos of it in period.

[hamsterace]

422PPP was NEVER a Jaguar powered car. It started life as a Lister MG and "cloned" in the 70s.

I think I am right in saying the car was raced in the 70s by a chap called John Gould - although I don't think he owned the car. I have vague recollections of him racing the car at Zolder in the 70s when I was an infant.

I believe it then passed to Ben Huisman in Holland - then custodian also of the very proper ex-Peter Mould YOB 575 - who was less than impressed when he found out what the car actually was. It then passed to the appropriately named Christopher Lister, and was driven by Tim Cairns. After a spell (I think) in Italy, it returned to the UK once more.

Whilst I am not an expert on these things - surely we must be approaching the stage when the car is worth more as a Lister-MG (of which, to my knowledge, none are currently running) than yet another questionable Lister "Jaguar"?

[hamsterace]

I think I am right in saying the car was raced in the 70s by a chap called John Gould - although I don't think he owned the car. I have vague recollections of him racing the car at Zolder in the 70s when I was an infant.

I believe it then passed to Ben Huisman in Holland - then custodian also of the very proper ex-Peter Mould YOB 575 - who was less than impressed when he found out what the car actually was. It then passed to the appropriately named Christopher Lister, and was driven by Tim Cairns. After a spell (I think) in Italy, it returned to the UK once more.

Whilst I am not an expert on these things - surely we must be approaching the stage when the car is worth more as a Lister-MG (of which, to my knowledge, none are currently running) than yet another questionable Lister "Jaguar"?

I should add that by "worth more" I mean historically as well as financially speaking. One shouldn't always reduce these things to pounds, shillings and pence.....

[Belmondo]

I think I am right in saying the car was raced in the 70s by a chap called John Gould - although I don't think he owned the car. I have vague recollections of him racing the car at Zolder in the 70s when I was an infant.

I believe it then passed to Ben Huisman in Holland - then custodian also of the very proper ex-Peter Mould YOB 575 - who was less than impressed when he found out what the car actually was. It then passed to the appropriately named Christopher Lister, and was driven by Tim Cairns. After a spell (I think) in Italy, it returned to the UK once more.

Whilst I am not an expert on these things - surely we must be approaching the stage when the car is worth more as a Lister-MG (of which, to my knowledge, none are currently running) than yet another questionable Lister "Jaguar"?

Simon – I remember your father nearly doing a stint in this car with Tim Cairns at Snetterton, but it broke (I think) a driveshaft in practice.

[hamsterace]

Simon – I remember your father nearly doing a stint in this car with Tim Cairns at Snetterton, but it broke (I think) a driveshaft in practice.

I can just about remember that - I think! Tim used to live in Bedford, only about 10 miles away from my parents, and they had got to know each other quite well. I suppose my father was a logical co-driver (quick, local, sympathetic etc.).

We have kept in touch ever since, and he has recently started racing again in an MG Midget in Classic Sports Car Club events. I think the costs involved now have come as something of a shock to him!

[TEDD]

Sorry Ted, somewhere along the line I got 'Todd' on the brain. Close on the colors, not bad for 50 years!

Will you be at the KIC next week at Road America?

Tom

Want to go but will be packing for VMD / Vintage Motorcycle Days at Mid Ohio, looking forward to the Fall Vintage at RA
See you at Corner Five.

have some left over spare parts in the garages do you think it would be ok to make a car out of them ?

Edited by TEDD, 07 July 2011 - 06:49.

[Red Socks]

I should add that by "worth more" I mean historically as well as financially speaking. One shouldn't always reduce these things to pounds, shillings and pence.....

On this point I understand there is a Lister Bristol which will appear, or reappear, quite shortly having been a fake Lister Jaguar for years and the owner has decided that the real thing is better that its current incarnation.

[Belmondo]

On this point I understand there is a Lister Bristol which will appear, or reappear, quite shortly having been a fake Lister Jaguar for years and the owner has decided that the real thing is better that its current incarnation.

Do you know which Lister Jaguar this is/was, out of interest?

[Red Socks]

Do you know which Lister Jaguar this is/was, out of interest?

Yes I do, but it is not for me to discuss that sort of detail on this forum.

[RA Historian]

have some left over spare parts in the garages do you think it would be ok to make a car out of them ?

Since you say parts as plural, heck, you can make several cars out of them!

Then sell them all through Mecum Auctions as real cars
Tom

[Red Socks]

Since you say parts as plural, heck, you can make several cars out of them!

Then sell them all through Mecum Auctions as real cars
Tom

Come, come, Tom the man has ''garages'' as well; these alone, having contained the parts, must be worth - what - five cars each ?

[TEDD]

Since you say parts as plural, heck, you can make several cars out of them!

Then sell them all through Mecum Auctions as real cars
Tom

Ha Ha! Somehow I knew you would say something like that!

also have some stuff a friend and I dug out of the dumpster at the UOP / Shadow race shop in Elk Grove Village when they closed the doors in the late 70's and a chassis tube with the spare tire mount on it from a mclaren elva .....

[RA Historian]

also have some stuff a friend and I dug out of the dumpster at the UOP / Shadow race shop in Elk Grove Village when they closed the doors in the late 70's and a chassis tube with the spare tire mount on it from a mclaren elva .....

Wow, you can make cars and cars and cars out of those parts, give them serial numbers, and sell them as the real thing. Or consign them to Mecum Auctions which is fast building a reputation for selling fakes.

[Dkipling1]

[quote name='fuzzi' date='May 16 2010, 14:31' post='4352914']
Is there such a thing as a Lister Jaguar Register?

I have skimmed though this fascinating thread, hoping to find ref's to the fake-bodied Lister Jaguar that "starred" in the racing movie THE GREEN HELMET:

http://www.oldstox.c...reen helmet.jpg
http://www.oldstox.c... helmet.jpg.png

The 'mechanic' on the left is wonderful old comic character actor Sid James. A real life Vanwall mechanic, Rod Dore, also appeared in the film. Does anyone know more about this car?

Semi-OT: I'm acquainted with a chap who as a teenager in Cambridge built Brian L's Jag engines: Grant Tabor, who also raced stock-cars in England before heading to the States to build NASCAR race engines for the top teams --- a happy engine man! [/size][/size]

[David McKinney]

It was one of the 1959 works (Costin-bodied) cars which after the movie ended up in Australia in 1962, and remained there into this century, latterly in the hands of Don Thallon. It is now part of David Wenman's (UK) collection, and Julian Bronson has been known to take the wheel on occasion

[Dkipling1]

It was one of the 1959 works (Costin-bodied) cars which after the movie ended up in Australia in 1962, and remained there into this century, latterly in the hands of Don Thallon. It is now part of David Wenman's (UK) collection, and Julian Bronson has been known to take the wheel on occasion

Though I was, anciently, a technical librarian and thus have confidence in facts being found, I continually "boggle" at the speed, depth, conciseness, and politeness of replies that fly into this forum. Thank you very much.

Forty years ago I was working in a technical college library in the UK, and a rather patronizing lecturer came in: "I don't suppose you'll be able to help, since this is an engineering library, but I want information and photographs of Black Welsh Mountain Sheep."
I reached behind me for a trusty directory, opened it, and pointed to the Black Welsh Mountain Sheep Breeders Association, which at the time happened to be based barely 20 miles away. Zing --- the memory of his face (the snooty lecturer, not the sheep) still gives me pleasure.

[Doug Nye]

If its the same owner he was most put out when I showed him some photos of it in period.

DCN

[David McKinney]

And all before the days of the internet, DK

[Dutchy]

It was one of the 1959 works (Costin-bodied) cars which after the movie ended up in Australia in 1962, and remained there into this century, latterly in the hands of Don Thallon. It is now part of David Wenman's (UK) collection, and Julian Bronson has been known to take the wheel on occasion

I thought the Lister in the film was WTM 446 (BHL 126) which (long after it was crashed during the making of the film) was rebuilt as the Knobbly bodied car raced by Stephen Langton

[David McKinney]

We're both right, dutchy

Two Coundley-owned Costin-bodied E-types were used in the film. "Yours" is the one that crashed

[terry mcgrath]

I noticed this add in R&T

Lister corvette costin body, 8 mag wheels 327cu in fuel injected, slightly modified ex Briggs Cunningham
John Synder silver spring MD
R&T september 1963

Edited by terry mcgrath, 03 August 2011 - 11:54.

[Belmondo]

I saw an ex-Cunningham Knobbly for sale somewhere also.

Possibly the car once raced by Andrew Baber?

[BRG]

I have read Doug Nye's piece in the current MotorSport magazine about the revival of Lister.  If you haven't seen it, this is their website.

 

I am sure we should all applaud any effort to revive this famous marque, but I confess to feeling a little  ambivalent about their plans to build brand new '1958' cars, presumably to race.  And this business about registering replicas and demanding that unapproved replicas should not be called Listers seems a bit high-handed.  

 

What do should we make of all this?  

[kayemod]

 

I am sure we should all applaud any effort to revive this famous marque, but I confess to feeling a little  ambivalent about their plans to build brand new '1958' cars, presumably to race.  And this business about registering replicas and demanding that unapproved replicas should not be called Listers seems a bit high-handed.  

 

What do should we make of all this?  

 

The new owner of all the Lister stuff & design rights etc may well have the best of intentions, but surely any attempt to clamp down on any replicas he doesn't like, is doomed to failure. If he's only just aquired all this stuff, I'd be surprised if that gives him the legal right to take action on anything that happened in years gone by, the kind of thing he's complaining about has happened ever since old cars began to be highly valued, who was it joked about reconstructing a Lancia D50 from a bucket of Monaco sea water? If copyright etc was indeed infringed,  Brian Lister and others should have done something about it when alleged offences occurred, surely there's nothing a new owner can do about it now?

[BRG]

The new owner of all the Lister stuff & design rights etc may well have the best of intentions, but surely any attempt to clamp down on any replicas he doesn't like, is doomed to failure. If he's only just aquired all this stuff, I'd be surprised if that gives him the legal right to take action on anything that happened in years gone by, the kind of thing he's complaining about has happened ever since old cars began to be highly valued, who was it joked about reconstructing a Lancia D50 from a bucket of Monaco sea water? If copyright etc was indeed infringed,  Brian Lister and others should have done something about it when alleged offences occurred, surely there's nothing a new owner can do about it now?

That's very much how I see it too, but how the law would see it may well be different!  But as Doug Nye hints in his article, some owners of Listers of less than perfect provenance may take issue in the courts.  

 

And incidentally, what is a 'tool room copy'?  Is there an accepted definition?

[RA Historian]

And incidentally, what is a 'tool room copy'?  Is there an accepted definition?

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is puzzled by that term. Does it mean anything at all, or is it just so much babble?

[paulie]

Good-day Folks,

I took this photo of this suitably dressed little Lister-Jag boy in the paddock of the Nürburgring during the 1975 (I think?) Historic races. My girl-friend at the time and now my wife found him to be trés cute! His father had entered and drove a Lister-Jaguar at this event and you can just see it out-of-focus in the background. I imagine that this cute little gaffer is now middle-aged and driving his own Lister?
Great fun to attend the historic races in the '70s and I particularly enjoyed watching the brutal but beautiful Listers.

Paulie in Canada

[David McKinney]

I think you might find the little cutie is now a TNF member

[hamsterace]

Good-day Folks,

I took this photo of this suitably dressed little Lister-Jag boy in the paddock of the Nürburgring during the 1975 (I think?) Historic races. My girl-friend at the time and now my wife found him to be trés cute! His father had entered and drove a Lister-Jaguar at this event and you can just see it out-of-focus in the background. I imagine that this cute little gaffer is now middle-aged and driving his own Lister?
Great fun to attend the historic races in the '70s and I particularly enjoyed watching the brutal but beautiful Listers.

Paulie in Canada

 

Blimey I was cute! Not sure what has gone wrong since....

 

Paulie, many thanks for posting the photo above. I can confirm that I am now middle aged, but am delighted to say that I still race the family Lister Jaguar (BHL 111) which has been owned by my parents since 1969. I was born in September '74, and I assume I would have been around 3 or 4 in the photograph - which suggests it might have been either '77 or '78. My father still has most of the old programmes and results sheets at home, so I will dig these out to see which year he competed under No. 19.

 

The Lister has been a regular fixture at the Oldtimer GP over the past 35 or so years, and we were back there again with it this year - although sadly a gearbox problem sidelined the car on the 1st lap of the '50s Sports Car Race. Hubertus von Donhoff, one of the founders of the event remains a huge enthusiast and a good friend, so with your permission I would like to send the photo to him to remind him of old times. Perhaps you could let me know if this is ok?

 

Many thanks for posting, and also to David for his generous reference!

 

Hamsterace

[paulie]

Hi Simon,

Very nice to hear from you and that you are driving the Lister. I think I have another photo of your father at the Arras circuit in northern France. More searching required. Your "cutie" photo is a scan from the original colour negative. I will try to find that neg. and if you like I can send it to you. Please pass the photo to Graf von Dönhoff. I did not know he was one of the founders of the Oldtimer GP and in this regard I would be pleased if you would pass on my thanks for the many pleasant memories of our visits to the 'Ring in August during the 1970s.
Also, please contact me at: paul@diversia.ca when you have time.

Cheers,

Paul

[RobertE]

This matter is now in hand; I must say that the variance in the quality of cars which are - ahem - 'post period' is really quite astonishing. Some are really very good. Others, on the other hand, fall woefully short of the mark in terms of the standards of the firm whose name they claim to bear, and I'm not just talking about the occasional nasty plastic kit car. Some of the welding, my dears, would have dear old Bob Gawthrop producing kittens. For me, it's all about accuracy as opposed to price, as having gone over the latest offering (it was the star of the show at Race Retro) it is perfectly clear to me that they are starting as they mean to go on. I showed a friend around it who is a Cobra specialist (same problems, actually, but more so) and he was utterly astonished at the quality of it all.

 

It's a double pleasure for me, as I was re-working "Archie & the Listers" for re-publication when I was asked to do this and was thus reconnecting with some old friends already. For what it's worth, the 'old guard' up in Cambridge are delighted that this is all happening. I appreciate many of the points made above and note them; but I really don't think anyone is trying to stop the lads having fun - quite the contrary, in fact.

 

It's a proper enterprise, properly funded and I know that all on here will wish them well. I haven't bought a new car since 1986, but I must confess I'd have one in a heartbeat if circs. permitted.

 

Meanwhile, the task in hand is to draw up a comprehensive list of ALL Listers made, so all input will be gratefully received, probably best by Private Message, as I know that there will be "I'm Spartacus" moments which are best kept confidential...

 

Wish me luck - it does occasionally seems like drawing the short straw but I believe it's worth doing...

[Rupertlt1]

442 PPP is here in 1963:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/tj641td1103

 

RGDS RLT