124 replies to this topic

[bill p]

The ex - Tetsu Ikuzawa Lotus 69 belonging to Irvine Laidlaw at the recent Mallory Park test day

Copyright giraffe

Ex-Ikuzawa 69 when I owned it in 1985. I reckon it looked better in original colours, any thoughts on "modern day team colours"?



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[Giraffe]

When you've got £800 million in the bank as reputedly Lord Irvine Laidlaw has, you can paint the sky green if you so choose!
I do think however that his cars look great, but I prefer originality. However, it could be argued that many historic racecars are just masquerading these days, or worse in some cases.

[hansfohr]

That old livery is striking, I am a fierce supporter of authencity. On the current 69 it looks like they put packing tape across the nose, sheer ugly.

Edited by hansfohr, 28 May 2010 - 17:29.

[f1steveuk]

I have a foot in both camps here. If I were restoring a car, with a particular history, I'd try and get it as correct as possible. I've commented before that there are some F1 cars running that have been "restored", and are so inaccurate, it makes you wonder why they bothered to try.

On the other hand, if I had £800 million, and therefore my own stable of race cars, I'd rather like them all in the same colours, as it's my own "team". Most racing cars are constantly developing, so sometimes it's at odds to be fitting so many modern parts, and then try and make it look old, but each to his own, especially if he can afford it!

[cyrilmac]

Nuff said I think

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After these years I still think these colours are superb

Edited by cyrilmac, 28 May 2010 - 17:48.

[Barry Boor]

Yes, Steve, like the ex-Ronnie Peterson March 701. In Antique Automobile colours it was yellow and maroon - at Monaco earlier this month, the maroon had turned brown.





Trust me - it really was brown.

Edited by Barry Boor, 28 May 2010 - 17:48.

[cyrilmac]

I have a foot in both camps here. If I were restoring a car, with a particular history, I'd try and get it as correct as possible. I've commented before that there are some F1 cars running that have been "restored", and are so inaccurate, it makes you wonder why they bothered to try.

On the other hand, if I had £800 million, and therefore my own stable of race cars, I'd rather like them all in the same colours, as it's my own "team". Most racing cars are constantly developing, so sometimes it's at odds to be fitting so many modern parts, and then try and make it look old, but each to his own, especially if he can afford it!

Good job someone talked him out off painting the Ferrari - sorry M'lud ( Laird ) it does not bear thinking about !

[f1steveuk]

Yes, Steve, like the ex-Ronnie Peterson March 701. In Antique Automobile colours it was yellow and maroon - at Monaco earlier this month, the maroon had turned brown.





Trust me - it really was brown.

And the roll hoop has turned black!!! It's the little things that drive me mad on these restorations.

I suppose it could also depend on how much has to be restored. I was mortified when Bernie said he was going to get the fan car running again, and wanted it stripped and re-done, it ended up looking like a new car, so when he told Robert and I he wanted to do VW10 next we sat him down and took as long as required to explain why not!

[arttidesco]

If some one buys an old racing car they can paint it what ever colour they want but, if I had that kind of money I would probably keep anything old with a close to original colour scheme, or by a new machine to race in my own colours.

The Lotus 69 at the top of the post looks like an old school tie but, TG it's not my money :-)

[Doug Nye]

Any owner - of anything - can do precisely as he wishes with it. But he cannot - with any success - demand approval of his actions from those who a) are more knowledgeable - b) more enthusiastic - c) more sensible - and d) show BETTER TASTE. Respraying a BRM the wrong colour ranks fairly low on the list of one owner's perceived misdemeanours...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 May 2010 - 19:52.

[MCS]

Nuff said I think
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After these years I still think these colours are superb

The colours are great and so are your pictures, cyrilmac. Thank you.

But isn't there something "wrong" with the car from (and including) the rollbar back?

Not to mention the cockpit mirrors...

[Phil Rainford]

It looks better than it did at the Gold Cup last year ;)




PAR

[David McKinney]

Respraying a BRM the wrong colour ranks fairly low on the list of one owner's perceived misdemeanours...
DCN

I'll pass your comments on to BRP and Scuderia Centro-Sud

[cyrilmac]

The colours are great and so are your pictures, cyrilmac. Thank you.

But isn't there something "wrong" with the car from (and including) the rollbar back?

Not to mention the cockpit mirrors...

Kind words
I bow to your superior knowledge but yes something at the back looks "incorrect" in the wing area.

[cyrilmac]

It looks better than it did at the Gold Cup last year ;)




PAR

Is that down the Avenue Phil ?

[Mistron]

This is a bit like people criticising the owner of a car for restoring it when in their opinion, it should have been left unrestored / original.

Harsh though it may sound, but it's the owners car and therefor their decision alone. I should think Lord Laidlaw is equally sure in his belief that it is the right thing FOR HIM to do, so good luck to him. I think they do all look rather good together in the paddock

After all, they can always be repainted (as they will have been many times before) in the future

[Lee Nicolle]

Personally I think the cars should be presented in period livery, when you restore the car pick a period and restore it to that. Simple things like the current owners/entrants name can be unobtrusivley put on the car ofcourse.
I am involved with Classic Speedway and the car I run is 95% to the period pics, a few subtle changes for simplicity [and budget] Though I have had people pick me for using modern computer cut signwriting!! I am not that particular, it looks the same from 10 feet away. If it was a display car only maybe, but it is a user and it is far simpler and cheaper that way.

[Rob G]

I prefer the period livery too, and I really appreciate the authenticity of a specific chassis being painted as it raced. Sure, the works teams had classic paint jobs, but if your chassis was raced by a private entrant, I'd love to see it in that unusual but accurate paint scheme.

[RogerFrench]

Any owner - of anything - can do precisely as he wishes with it. But he cannot - with any success - demand approval of his actions from those who a) are more knowledgeable - b) more enthusiastic - c) more sensible - and d) show BETTER TASTE. Respraying a BRM the wrong colour ranks fairly low on the list of one owner's perceived misdemeanours...

DCN

Agreed to a point, but to re-paint a non-works car however you want seems perfectly OK to me, even if the colours are a bit odd. It's not as though colour is permanent.

[David Lawson]

But isn't there something "wrong" with the car from (and including) the rollbar back?
Not to mention the cockpit mirrors...

A photograph I took in period. the rear wing support is different from the restored car.

David

[hansfohr]

A photograph I took in period. the rear wing support is different from the restored car.

David

And the wing sideplates were much bigger on Kenny's original 793 (also compare with the official works pic).

(source: www,marchives.com)

[ensign14]

If you want to race a car painted in your own colours, race in a modern championship.

Historic racing to some extent is like the National Trust. Not just for the benefit of racers, but for the spectators and those who respect and revere heritage. Indeed, why else race? Beefing up your historical racing car for the sake of pot-hunting seems to me to be ludicrous on all sorts of levels. Not least that if you wanted to show off how good a driver you were you should be doing so against the best of the best, or at least the best you can realistically race against.

[Stephen W]

This subject has been covered before. The real fly in the ointment is when people have their cars painted in racing colours that the car NEVER carried when in period. For example Gold Leaf Team Lotus (Red & gold) or John Player Special (Black & gold).

If an owner wishes to paint his car in pale blue when it ran in orange in period it is after all his car and his money.

On a personal note I dislike cars painted all white, I think it shows a lack of imagination.

[hansfohr]

If you want to race a car painted in your own colours, race in a modern championship. Historic racing to some extent is like the National Trust.

Obviously the basic principle of restoration is to make the car as authentical as possible. If you don't respect the original livery the car shouldn't be regarded as genuine, even if the car is technically 100 percent original. Just imagine a JPS Lotus 72 in pink livery.

[Giraffe]

Obviously the basic principle of restoration is to make the car as authentical as possible. If you don't respect the original livery the car shouldn't be regarded as genuine, even if the car is technically 100 percent original. Just imagine a JPS Lotus 72 in pink livery.

The Pink Stamps Lotus horrified me in period and a re-creation of it would still horrify me today!

http://www.lotus30.com/

Now there's an example of where green with a yellow stripe would be excusable, surely?!?!

[Phil Rainford]

Is that down the Avenue Phil ?

It is actually Deer's Leap ........although it all started to go wrong at Lodge





PAR

[cyrilmac]

It is actually Deer's Leap ........although it all started to go wrong at Lodge





PAR

Nice !

[Alan Cox]

Any owner - of anything - can do precisely as he wishes with it. But he cannot - with any success - demand approval of his actions from those who a) are more knowledgeable - b) more enthusiastic - c) more sensible - and d) show BETTER TASTE. Respraying a BRM the wrong colour ranks fairly low on the list of one owner's perceived misdemeanours...
DCN

I suppose we should be grateful that Lord Laidlaw refrained from painting his stackpipe BRM maroon with silver stripes during his period of ownership - and also his Maserati 6CM.

[BRG]

Yes, Steve, like the ex-Ronnie Peterson March 701. In Antique Automobile colours it was yellow and maroon - at Monaco earlier this month, the maroon had turned brown.

Trust me - it really was brown.

Where was the in-period shot taken? Was it at Monaco - it doesn't look like it? I was at Monaco in 1970 and I could swear that it was a yellow and brown livery on the 701 - and it's only 40 years ago so I wouldn't have forgotten.....

Is there any chance that the livery was changed?

[Duc-Man]

Sticking to the original colours...

And what should somebody do who ownes a historically unimportant car that ran with five different paint jobs driven by eight equally unknown and unsuccesful drivers?

Just thinking...

Edited by Duc-Man, 29 May 2010 - 10:25.

[Barry Boor]

My Ronnie Peterson-March shot was taken at Brands Hatch - British Grand Prix.

As far as the Antique Automobiles colours were concerned, they had maroon on their McLaren that Vic Elford drove, so I guess the maroon carried over to the March with the yellow added for a Swedish driver? Or some other sponsor.

[Alan Cox]

Thee is an excellent colour shot of the Antique Automobiles March, with Ronnie Peterson taken at Spa, on the back cover of Michael Oliver's excellent 'Tales from the Toolbox'* where the colour appears to be maroon.

*If you haven't got a copy, buy it. Usual disclaimers.

[Giraffe]

*If you haven't got a copy, buy it. Usual disclaimers.

Ditto! It's a cracker!

[David McKinney]

I suppose we should be grateful that Lord Laidlaw refrained from painting his stackpipe BRM maroon with silver stripes during his period of ownership - and also his Maserati 6CM.

... and especially his 250F

[Macca]

Sticking to the original colours...

And what should somebody do who ownes a historically unimportant car that ran with five different paint jobs driven by eight equally unknown and unsuccesful drivers?

Just thinking...

Paint it in tribute to your favourite team - hence FF Lotus 61s in GLTL colours.......


Paul M

[Giraffe]

Paint it in tribute to your favourite team - hence FF Lotus 61s in GLTL colours.......


Paul M

You could be retrospectively tasteless and paint your Lotus 18 in GLTL colours? Perish the thought!

[Stephen W]

Paint it in tribute to your favourite team - hence FF Lotus 61s in GLTL colours.......

Paul M

Of course you cannot adorn it with the words GOLD LEAF TEAM LOTUS or have the John Player logo on it; but Red & White with Gold Stripes is OK!

[jph]

Worse than non-period liveries is the trend towards 'adopting' historic liveries on inappropriate cars - in particular the widespread use of pale blue and orange on anything other than cars of a type raced by JWA.

[Giraffe]

Worse than non-period liveries is the trend towards 'adopting' historic liveries on inappropriate cars - in particular the widespread use of pale blue and orange on anything other than cars of a type raced by JWA.

Not really widespread. Seen it lately on the Porsche 928 of Paul Anderson in Historic Road Sports, and the Minshaw's Chevron B16.

Unless it's on GT40, 908/917, or Mirage (sports car or Formula Ford!) I consider it pretty tacky.

[Pullman99]

- in particular the widespread use of pale blue and orange on anything other than cars of a type raced by JWA.

Not just cars. A couple of years ago there was a blue and orange Ford Transit I used to see fairly regularly in Ulverston that was painted really well and with all the correct decals - compete with race number 6 - to represent the Ford GT40 of Jacky Ickx from 1969! Never did manage to speak to te owner to see if he had a real one as well.

Edited by Pullman99, 14 June 2010 - 19:29.

[Mistron]

and yet the 'silk cut' volvo estate was something of a legend in the campsites of Le Mans

[h4887]

Any owner - of anything - can do precisely as he wishes with it.
DCN

Not if it's a listed building. Now there's a good idea...

[arttidesco]

Not just cars. A couple of years ago there was a blue and orange Ford Transit I used to see fairly regularly in Ulverston that was painted relly well and with all the correct decals - compete with race number 6 - to represent the Ford GT40 of Jacky Ickx from 1969! Never did manage to speak to te owner to see if he had a real one as well.

While I was in Aberystwyth Dec 2008 - Feb 2009 there was a three axle dump truck in JWA Gulf Colours that frequented one of the Universtity building sites, can't remember which # it ran but it had an impressive array of fog lights on the top of the cab :-)

[arttidesco]

and yet the 'silk cut' volvo estate was something of a legend in the campsites of Le Mans

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#88, Mountain Dew, Double Trouble, MGB, Talladega Superspeedway, 25/04/09

As legendary as the Silk Cut Volvo Estate in the Le Mans car park is this #88 Mountain Dew MGB in the Talladega Superspeedway car park run by a serious Dale Jnr fan who used to run this car in the red #8 Budweiser colours when Jnr was running at DEI :-)

[Kevan]

Sticking to the original colours...

And what should somebody do who ownes a historically unimportant car that ran with five different paint jobs driven by eight equally unknown and unsuccesful drivers?

Just thinking...

Pick the most interesting or attractive of those five different paint jobs?. I'd much rather see a car that was raced in period by a little-known privateer being presented in the colours used by that driver, than see it dressed up as a 'works' team car or one raced by a better-known driver

Aren't there are some historic race series (the Group C/Group A touring car series in Australia, or Group C sportscars in Europe come to mind) now that make a point of requiring cars to be run as far as possible in historically-correct liveries?

[Barry Boor]

Most if not all Group C cars I have seen are in original livery. Good thing too!

[Lee Nicolle]

A photograph I took in period. the rear wing support is different from the restored car.

David

While I do not know the cars involved racecars tend to evolve meeting to meeting meaning it may have raced like that in period. If not it is a shame with something so obvious.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

I like the story of Monét, the painter. His paintings was made up by a lot of dots, that altogether made it up for a picture. A favorite setting of his was a pond with water lillies with green leaves, yellow and white flowers. In his later years this turned out as grey leaves with red flowers and taken by experts as Monéts choice to do his paintings this way. Decades after Monéts last brush an eye doctor saw the connection and said he must have had cataracts!

Here in Denmark the historic scene is big, mostly made up by saloon and GT cars, and most of these with no previous racing history. Yet their owners quite often paint them in period colours like a BMW 2002 in orange with black bonnet and side band (the bonnet was made of carbon, but nobody made a point of that as the car going like stink anyway).
Other cars are restored pieces of Danish motor racing history like the Leif Pedersen Group 2 NSU (with one or two BTCC visits). I have known this car for decades thanks to period magazines and always thought of it as basic white with orange and blue. Then the Hansen family of Esbjerg purchased the car and restored it to running order, but now the orange had turned to red and according to them, that was how it was! As Iwan the older was around at the time when the car was run by its original owner - Leif raced it in these colours 1972-1976 - and his son Peter was a todler, I don't doubt their memories, but ask if fading colour pictures might have something to do with weather an old F1 car was yellow and maroon or yellow and brown or is it the beholder of the eyes? Basically do any one of 6.3 billion people currenly living see the excact same shade of colour at any given time?

Jesper

[arttidesco]

On the subject of original paint schemes does anyone know how this Alfa Romeo 179 at the Carlo Biscaretti di Ruffia Museum - Torino (Italy) featuring a 1980 chassis with 1981 wings came to be painted with a 1982 colour scheme ?

[Stephen W]

Not really widespread. Seen it lately on the Porsche 928 of Paul Anderson in Historic Road Sports, and the Minshaw's Chevron B16.

Unless it's on GT40, 908/917, or Mirage (sports car or Formula Ford!) I consider it pretty tacky.

There are a host of Porsche 911s using this colour scheme plus at least one Porsche 914 none of which were JWA Gulf cars!