99 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Jeremy, when I was a kid and went to Adelaide in the 60's I rode on a tram thing that ran all the way to near a beach. It went both in the suburbs and onto it's own railway.

I grew up in Melbourne and of course rode around on all the green trams and Red Rattlers.

First time I drove in Melbourne at 18 I had the pleasure of turning right from the center and blocking a tram

For those not familiar with Melbourne we had a unique situation and in law, that you had to move to the left side of the intersection to turn right so you didn't block the trams (right hand drive).

That tram still runs to the Bay [Glenelg] but goes further the other way now to the chagrin of all motorists.

[Gary Davies]

That tram still runs to the Bay [Glenelg] but goes further the other way now to the chagrin of all motorists.

Yes yes, but the extension works were completed just in time to play their part in helping MM slither over the line in the State Election.

[Stirling]

Very interesting thread. I have fond memories of travelling on the trams of both Melbourne and Ballarat. Unfortunately Ballarat did away with its tram system in the early 1970's, though a 'heritage' line still runs along Lake Wendouree (now dried up) to the eponymous suburb. Afficionados might be interested to know that these rather nice collectors models of the Melbourne trams are available - complete with wooden presentation case!

Stirling

[Nick Wa]

Could the fact that in a few places Double Deck trams were operated be a centre of gravity issue. I remember London trams always seemed to crawl round corners. Also most of the LPTB's tram network ran on a 3rd rail system not an overhead wire. In fact as child I was a bit confused to see a tram down Croydon way running on an overhead wire.
Edit to show a link to a picture of the 3rd rail system for those unfamiliar with the principle

Edited by Nick Wa, 03 June 2010 - 17:09.

[kayemod]

Could the fact that in a few places Double Deck trams were operated be a centre of gravity issue.

No, I wouldn't have thought so, and most of the weight in any double deck tram/bus/trolleybus is going to be low down in the chassis. I'd have been quite young when trams were running in their original guise, but I can't remember any reports of them toppling over in corners. Sheffield's tram network was well documented, probably other UK cities as well, and I've read more than one book on the subject, mishaps like falling over would certainly have been highlighted. As a child, they seemed to go pretty quickly to me, they certainly didn't seem to be getting in the way of cars and other traffic.

[Tim Murray]

... most of the weight in any double deck tram/bus/trolleybus is going to be low down in the chassis.

Yes indeed. I remember being very impressed by a photo I saw many years ago of a stability test on a London double-decker bus, where it was canted over to quite a high angle (around 20 degrees if memory serves). It was empty, of course, and I did wonder if they could cant it over quite as much with a full complement of passengers on the top deck.

Edit: I should of course have checked before trusting my unreliable memory. This Wiki article contains the following:

In the United Kingdom, double-decker buses have to be capable of leaning, fully laden on top, at an angle of 28 deg without toppling over before they are allowed on the road

Edited by Tim Murray, 03 June 2010 - 18:40.

[Nick Wa]

kayemod of course your correct.
Stupid remark on my part, did not think out the c of g thingy. However they did swing and sway about a lot, very heavy unsprung section topped with a sprung light body? Which is what confused me 2 separate c of gs!
To quote my late maths master "If in doubt 1. Define your units 2. Take moments", I did neither.

[David McKinney]

Does anyone remember Arthur Mee's "Children's Encyclopaedia"?

I clearly remember seeing a diagram demonstrating why a big six-wheeler, scarlet-painted, diesel-engined, London Transport, 97-horsepower, double-decker omnibus could not topple over on a corner. The concept of a "centre of gravity" was far too complicated for an 8-year-old (or whatever I was) to grasp

And apologies for mixing my sources

Edited by David McKinney, 03 June 2010 - 19:00.

[bradbury west]

They used to get out to some lurid angles on the skid-pan in North London when the drivers were learning the quirks of the buses- angles both ways, from the vertical in lean and with the rear end breaking away. They were very stable apparently.

In the matter of tipping over, certainly with trucks, and especially artics on the old multi or single leaf cart springs, it was a case invariably of falling over on the spring rebound, typically on the exit of a roundabout when they had to take the 3rd or more exit. The body roll would suddenly get in sync with the rebound rate of the returning spring action and both would work together to tip the vehicle. It also depended on the weight profile of the load , which is why it was usually a load of timeber etc which fell over, high and uniformly loaded and distributed, acting as a lever or some such to exacerbate the purchase on the springs, which would then flip back quickly as the load rolled the other way. Proven by the TRRL with a police force years ago IIRC. I believe air suspension goes a long way to offset this issue these days.
Roger Lund
Excuse the wording of the description. I am not an engineer, but I had many years in road haulage in the good old days.
RL

Edited by bradbury west, 03 June 2010 - 19:10.

[kayemod]

...I clearly remember seeing a diagram demonstrating why a big six-wheeler, scarlet-painted, diesel-engined, London Transport, 97-horsepower, double-decker omnibus...

♫ "He'd painted over the gas tap, and I couldn't turn it on..." ♫

[Geoff E]

In the United Kingdom, double-decker buses have to be capable of leaning, fully laden on top, at an angle of 28 deg without toppling over before they are allowed on the road.

Photo of a Routemaster doing considerably better than 28 degrees http://www.timesonli...BUS_402142a.jpg

Edited by Geoff E, 03 June 2010 - 19:11.

[bradbury west]

[quote name='kayemod' date='Jun 3 2010, 20:04' post='4393725']
♫ "He'd painted over the gas tap, and I couldn't turn it on..." ♫ /quote]

Still Flanders and Swann, but he wrong song. That is The gas man cometh. Twas on a monday morning the gas man came to call...........
Roger Lund

[kayemod]

Still Flanders and Swann, but he wrong song.

No, not really. Sadly, I know the whole song from beginning to end, I just thought that was the best line.

[Tony Matthews]

Perhaps the gas man was coming by tram...

[sandy]

Melbourne trams can be found in Seattle, San Francisco, Dallas, Rio Vista, Ironworld Discovery - Minnesota and Memphis - ex New Orleans. These are all W class the classic model of the Melbourne tram fleet.

[plannerpower]

Double-deck 'buses on the skidpan;



Apropos the (in)famous Melbourne "hook turn"; I attempted a "normal" turn on my first visit to Melbourne (ca. 1975).

Matters were not improved by the fact that I had a racing-car on a trailer and was followed by a mate in his car which was similarly-burdened.

The ensuing conversation with a member of the Victoria Police Force was enlightening; he was quite friendly and, when he realised that I didn't know the local rules, he described how such a turn should be done and sent us on our way.

[Lee Nicolle]

Double-deck 'buses on the skidpan;



Apropos the (in)famous Melbourne "hook turn"; I attempted a "normal" turn on my first visit to Melbourne (ca. 1975).

Matters were not improved by the fact that I had a racing-car on a trailer and was followed by a mate in his car which was similarly-burdened.

The ensuing conversation with a member of the Victoria Police Force was enlightening; he was quite friendly and, when he realised that I didn't know the local rules, he described how such a turn should be done and sent us on our way.

Been there done that. At about 5pm on a Thurday night! I think I caused a local traffic jam for a few minutes inc trams.
Thank God you can advoid the City Centr totally these days when travelling through Melbourne. Since the Westgate I have not been in the city at all when going racing, closest I got was going past the tennis centre going around the tunnel that was leaking. [and before it was open]

[Gary Davies]

Since buses have snuck into the thread... This is how I travelled from Blighty (Bishops Stortford!!) to The Fairlawn Hotel Sudder Street Calcutta between July and September 1972... and then on to Oz. Wonderful memories.

[Graham Clayton]

Have there been any street circuits from the past that featured tram tracks?

[David McKinney]

Yes, including Monaco IIRC

[jeremy durward]

Jeremy, when I was a kid and went to Adelaide in the 60's I rode on a tram thing that ran all the way to near a beach. It went both in the suburbs and onto it's own railway.

I grew up in Melbourne and of course rode around on all the green trams and Red Rattlers.

First time I drove in Melbourne at 18 I had the pleasure of turning right from the center and blocking a tram

For those not familiar with Melbourne we had a unique situation and in law, that you had to move to the left side of the intersection to turn right so you didn't block the trams (right hand drive).

yep, as Lee said the old Glenelg tram is still going. although unlike Lee i'm not too bothered about the new extension, i quite like the idea of trams making a comeback... but i wish the roadworks would just finish, the trams are running on the extension but they are still busy making it pretty or something and its getting a bit tiring trying to get across the city and sitting in traffic because only two out four lanes are open.

[bradbury west]

Was it in Portugal where Jack Brabham et al had problems with the tram tracks in the Cooper?
Roger Lund

[Bernd]

Yes the Porto circuit from memory.

[Rob29]

Have there been any street circuits from the past that featured tram tracks?

More recent past-San Jose Indycar race.
A wonderful thread I am amazed to find here When I saw the title I thought it was going to be about a place in Kent I have visited on way to Brands Hatch though I don't think trams ever went that far.
I lived in south London when trams were removed.Still remember the red & yellow posters-'Buses for trams'10yrs later in north london 'buses for trollybuses' The conduit underground 3rdrail system I think was unique in UK-and was pioneered by London County Council around 1901-they did not like unsightly overhead wires.If you watch the movie'Genevive' you can see the state of the street near my home c.1953.part couduit tram track-Part continuous hole in the middle of the road,part fresh tarmac in middle of road.

Edited by Rob29, 04 June 2010 - 08:35.

[taylov]

Have there been any street circuits from the past that featured tram tracks?

The 1921 French GP and early 24 hour races at Le Mans featured the Tramways de la Sarthe (steam trams) station at the Pontlieue hairpin. The trams also ran through Mulsanne village.

Earlier races at the Sarthe circiut also featured the tramtracks at the side of the circuit - 1906 and 1911 IIRC. I think a photo appears in a past thread about Fournier's fatal accident.

Tony

Edited by taylov, 04 June 2010 - 10:04.

[sandy]

More recent past-San Jose Indycar race.
A wonderful thread I am amazed to find here When I saw the title I thought it was going to be about a place in Kent I have visited on way to Brands Hatch though I don't think trams ever went that far.
I lived in south London when trams were removed.Still remember the red & yellow posters-'Buses for trams'10yrs later in north london 'buses for trollybuses' The conduit underground 3rdrail system I think was unique in UK-and was pioneered by London County Council around 1901-they did not like unsightly overhead wires.If you watch the movie'Genevive' you can see the state of the street near my home c.1953.part couduit tram track-Part continuous hole in the middle of the road,part fresh tarmac in middle of road.

Is this what you mean?

[ggnagy]

iirc, the term "trolley" refers to the wheel collector at the end of the pole. So, technically speaking, anything with a pantograph collector is not a "trolley".
"Interurbans" tended to not just designate rural routes, but cars with extra lighting and other equipment for traversing those rural routes. Some types of interurbans were also built with end doors to allow multiple unit and trailer operations.

Washington DC used a system similar to the London one for city running, with the blade looking something like a small spade. There were routes where both methods of power were used, and stations where the cars would switch from wire to below ground power transmission.

Down the road from my house, you can spot a pavillion/club building that was built around a pre-PCC streetcar, with the ends sticking proud of the surrounding building. It has allways been marked private property, but I just saw "for sale" signs go up, so I might need to take a closer look.

[Pullman99]

iirc Down the road from my house, you can spot a pavillion/club building that was built around a pre-PCC streetcar, with the ends sticking proud of the surrounding building. It has allways been marked private property, but I just saw "for sale" signs go up, so I might need to take a closer look.

Just in case anyone in England was wondering, the term PCC is not the "Parochial Church Council" but is derived from the term "President's Conference Car" which was an attempt to standardise tramcar design in the USA in the 1930s. One of these (ex-Belgium I think so a European version of the US design) is normally on exhibition at Crich. Do let us know the outcome of your investigation - it could be another barn find! A recent find in Cumbria comprised two complete mid-19th century ralway coaches (Furness Railway) on a farm. The farmer was using them for storing cattle feed! Now they're being rescued but these matters do take time.

The pic of Kenneth More's Spyker in "Genevieve" reminds us of an enjoyable ending to that famous British film. A great-uncle of mine used to curse the Glasgow system when his solid-tyred Trojan got stuck and had to be manhandled off the tracks!

What a great thread!

Edited by Pullman99, 19 October 2010 - 16:17.

[David McKinney]

The pic of Kenneth More's Spyker in "Genevieve" reminds us...

What did he do with his Darracq?

[Pullman99]

What did he do with his Darracq?

"Genevieve" was the Darracq driven by the character played by John Gregson. Both the Darracq and the Spyker are in (separate) museums in Holland although Britain's NMM did look seriously at acquiring the Darracq when it was sold by its previous Australian owner. More details here:


BFI online "Genevieve"

Edited by Pullman99, 27 September 2011 - 14:31.

[David McKinney]

Whoops

[sandy]

http://www.donbrockway.com/Genevieve's%20History.htm

This site says it all.

[Tony Matthews]

"Genevieve" was the Darracq driven by the character played by John Gregson. Both the Darracq and the Spyker are in (separate) museums in Holland although Britain's NMM did look seriously at acquirig the Darracq when it was sold by its previous Australian owner. More details here:


BFI online "Genevieve"

As I write, 'Genevieve' is being shown on Film4, started at 14:50. I will not be watching it, as I saw it on release and that harmonica does my 'ead in.

[MPea3]

I shot this over the weekend when I was in New Orleans visiting my oldest son. I thought some of you might enjoy it.

[Robin Fairservice]

I have just looked at this thread, and would add that if you like trams go to San Francisco where they have restored their tram system and use vintage trams from all over the world. It is a living, working, tram museum. We were there last year, and staying at a motel, just off Market Street, we used the trams to go back and forth to the Fisherman's Wharf every day. For Seniors it was very cheap and they give you a transfer ticket that lasts for some while, so you can hop on and off of them. They have a modern tram system that is under Market Street and also the BART trains that go out to the airport amongst other places. A great place for a transport buff.
Going back to the video clip of a London Transport 6 wheeler trolley bus, I remember those very well. They were quite and comfortable, but were 8 feet wide, whereas the legal maximum width then was 7'-6". The story was that they had been ordered by a South African system at the start of the war, and didn't go because of the war, so London had them and had a special dispensation to operate them.

[Lee Nicolle]

I have just looked at this thread, and would add that if you like trams go to San Francisco where they have restored their tram system and use vintage trams from all over the world. It is a living, working, tram museum. We were there last year, and staying at a motel, just off Market Street, we used the trams to go back and forth to the Fisherman's Wharf every day. For Seniors it was very cheap and they give you a transfer ticket that lasts for some while, so you can hop on and off of them. They have a modern tram system that is under Market Street and also the BART trains that go out to the airport amongst other places. A great place for a transport buff.
Going back to the video clip of a London Transport 6 wheeler trolley bus, I remember those very well. They were quite and comfortable, but were 8 feet wide, whereas the legal maximum width then was 7'-6". The story was that they had been ordered by a South African system at the start of the war, and didn't go because of the war, so London had them and had a special dispensation to operate them.

Sounds like the buses here in Adelaide. They were overwidth and at the end of their service were worth very little. A few people narrowed the bodys for use as campers etc. Big job.
These days they are supposed to be legal 2.5 metres though I think they are scrapped now. Some are quite old!

[Paul Hurdsfield]

This may be of interest to you boys

I remember travelling on Trolley buses with my Dad to Main rd to watch City play back in the 50s.
Of course we now have trams running again here in Sunny Manchester,
also we're waiting for the 'Big bang' extension, which will see the tram routes extending out to Oldham, Rochdale, Ashton etc......

Edited by Paul Hurdsfield, 20 October 2010 - 08:18.

[sandy]

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

If you like old trams don't miss this clip.

There were two large cities in in the State of Victoria that were built on the back of the goldrush, Bendigo and Ballarat. After all of the gold had been mined Bendigo continued to prosper and as a result they were able to pull down all of those old fashioned buildings in the main street and replace them with modern buildings. The end result was as if there had been a competition to create the ugliest offices and shops imaginable. Ballarat however fell on hard times and no one could afford to replace the gold rush construction and now the people of Ballarat realise that they have an unbroken strip of magnificent buildings all dating from the mid 1800s and all compatible with each other. It is well worth a visit.

[Terry Walker]

My most recent tram trip was at Whiteman Park here in Perth about a year ago - the sprawling park has a lengthy tramline between two scenic areas, and a lively tram museum with trams from several Australian cities running on it. Thinking back, the last time before that was in Melbourne in the 60s when I used to catch a toast-rack tram and tried to master the art of reading broadsheet newspaper folded into quarters while enjoying a 30 mph breeze.

[sandy]

Not only did Melbourne have an extemsive tram network but there is also a very large suburban electric train system. Until the 60s the trains were known as "Red Rattlers" and were of early 20s vintage. They were noted for having many sliding doors along the length of the coaches and in hot weather they would all be slid open allowing easy access when the train stopped. Station halts were measured in seconds and enormous numbers of passengers could come on board or get off as required in a matter of moments. With all of the open doors how on earth passengers never fell out constantly is a miracle, especially around 6pm when the pubs closed. These suburban trains could accelerate to a high operating speed in just seconds and like the trams the train service had to fight off the bus proponents which they successfully did, resulting now in modern air conditioned carriages which only move off when all doors are firmly closed. A far cry from when my father, who smoked like a chimney and who when having a coughing fit that wracked his body from head to toe, would open the door to rid himself of a mass of phglem and general waste from his lungs that would bring about a mass exodus, with me at the lead, from the compartment at the next station leaving him alone with his affliction.

Edited by sandy, 21 October 2010 - 08:41.

[mikeC]

I have only just stumbled on this wonderful thread - I, too, have fond memories of the Sheffield trams, and also holidays in the Fifties in the Blackpool area always featured a trip on the seafront tramline
I cannot begin to identify any of the American cars in taylov's photo (post 21), but I would suggest that the vintage tourer with the pale canvas roof which Ray identified as an early-thirties Riley is, in fact, a 14hp Armstrong Siddeley of around 1922. The car which Ray was intrigued by, turninf off the picture on the right-hand side, looks like a late thirties Wolseley, whilst the vintage 2-seater behind it could be a mid-twenties Delage. Partly hidden behind the horse-drawn cart is an early-thirties Austin 12/6, whilst in the far distance, crossing the road junction, is a mid-thirties Austin Seven Ruby. The car immediately behind the trolly bus, and in front of the Armstrong is also British, possibly another, smaller, Wolseley, or maybe a Standard or Singer, of the mid-thirties

[mikeC]

I've just remembered stumbling onto this amazing clip, taken in San Francisco in 1906, just 4 days before the earthquake:

http://www.youtube.c...p?v=NINOxRxze9k

[sandy]

Jeremy, when I was a kid and went to Adelaide in the 60's I rode on a tram thing that ran all the way to near a beach. It went both in the suburbs and onto it's own railway.

I grew up in Melbourne and of course rode around on all the green trams and Red Rattlers.

First time I drove in Melbourne at 18 I had the pleasure of turning right from the center and blocking a tram

For those not familiar with Melbourne we had a unique situation and in law, that you had to move to the left side of the intersection to turn right so you didn't block the trams (right hand drive).

What Cheapracer is talking about is a unique process that involves turning into another street in the Central Business District of Melbourne. Because of the trams there is a need when turning left or right to have to turn, not from the centre of the street, where you would hold up the trams but from the side...look it is just too hard to explain, what really matters is that when the light turns green you have to pull out in front of a tidal wave of oncoming traffic, which is quite prepared to run right over you, showing no mercy whatsoever. So what happens is that you sit there watching the lights like a hawk and when they turn green you let out the clutch and accelerate like a mad thing driving across the front of a whole lot of pitiless taxi drivers and homicidal delivery trucks and hope that you can keep in front of them so as not to be spreadeagled across the interesection. There is always some tension when holding up an approaching tram by being stuck in the middle of the road - you can hear the tram's bell getting louder and louder and you know that the tram driver is probably of an ethnic background and quite uncaring about your wellbeing and there is always the possibility that the driver can show his displeasure by allowing his 20 ton tram to gently nudge up against your car's rear bumper...

[Patrick Fletcher]

One of the pleasures of going by tram to the F1 event at Albert Park each year is the free tram travel from Southern Cross station down to the circuit. Every five minutes on Thursday, four on Friday and two minutes on Saturday & Sunday.
Getting back is just as easy but at the end of day the feet are not so nimble so you may miss the one you are going for!
Top Service....

[Rob29]

I've just remembered stumbling onto this amazing clip, taken in San Francisco in 1906, just 4 days before the earthquake:

http://www.youtube.c...p?v=NINOxRxze9k

A wonderful bit of film! ''health & safety' would have a fit if scenes like that were enacted today
What baffled me was what appeared to be trollybuses with only one trolley pole? I always understood they needed the second pole for the negative current return?

[taylov]

A wonderful bit of film! ''health & safety' would have a fit if scenes like that were enacted today
What baffled me was what appeared to be trollybuses with only one trolley pole? I always understood they needed the second pole for the negative current return?

I don't believe there are any trolleybuses on this superb piece of film.

We are travelling on a cable tram - the clue is the slot or conduit in the centre of the track. There was a huge network of cable driven routes pre 1906 but many were not reopened after the 'quake. 3 routes survive to this day.

The trams that cross at 90 degrees to the camera are electric trams, picking their current up from a single pole and wire and returning it to the power station or to earth via the track. It may be these that you are referring to. There are several routes left in SF still using this system of power, the best known being the Market Street route which uses historic PCC cars.



Tony

Edited by taylov, 21 October 2010 - 19:03.

[Rob29]

I don't believe there are any trolleybuses on this superb piece of film.

We are travelling on a cable tram - the clue is the slot or conduit in the centre of the track. There was a huge network of cable driven routes pre 1906 but many were not reopened after the 'quake. 3 routes survive to this day.

The trams that cross at 90 degrees to the camera are electric trams, picking their current up from a single pole and wire and returning it to the power station or to earth via the track. It may be these that you are referring to. There are several routes left in SF still using this system of power, the best known being the Market Street route which uses historic PCC cars.



Tony

You may be right ,but I could not see any tracks crossing the one we are travelling on.Vehcles certainly looked like trams. I visited San Francisco in 1984 and travelled on cable cars .trams,trollybuses and a DC3 aircraft!

[taylov]

You may be right ,but I could not see any tracks crossing the one we are travelling on.Vehcles certainly looked like trams. I visited San Francisco in 1984 and travelled on cable cars .trams,trollybuses and a DC3 aircraft!

Did you spot the horse tram turning to the right (of the film) in the first 30 seconds ?

Tony

Edited by taylov, 22 October 2010 - 08:09.

[vicplates]

There are 3 Footscray trams:
Hi sandy can you send me the email of the person who owns tram 155 l am looking for a tram to restore. cheers vicplate
155 as shown - the one that has had it. (The owners are talking about burning it so if you want the bare bones of a 1916 tram let me know and I will give you their email).
164 as shown - fully restored.
158 which I found and which is in the hands of a tram enthusiast who is a very private person - photos to come.

I did not know of 164 when I started this topic.

[vicplates]

Or here is my contact number 0433984575 cheers Adam.